This build was pre planned because the player purposefully did not want a "powerbuild" because they had done it frequently before and were tired of it. So this build was purposefully planned to be this way: mechanically less powerful. So be aware of what you are actually trying to defend here.

That does not entitle them to items that are more powerful than would be allowed to other characters. Balance exists for a reason. You have to take into account what can actually be done with the game. We all have to be operating under the same framework of rules and regulations, otherwise the entire thing falls apart, like when quarterstaves were given extra damage to account for them being awful. Well, then they were made monk weapons, so now they're just bonkers damage for no real reason. Twice Over existed because someone thought a heavy flail weaponmaster should get extra damage. That's all. Heavy Flail is already a good weapon and didn't need to be 2d8. Halberds don't get 2d8 damage, and they're worse than a heavy flail. (long crit ranges are better than tall ones, and bludgeoning is a better damage type.) 1d10 damage weapons exist across the board because the Astral Blade +2 was in the mod, making the iconic LONGSWORD the only weapon in the module that had a +1d10 damage bonus on it. It certainly didn't need the extra damage, no one here is going to argue that a longsword is a bad weapon. But then every other weapon was brought up to the same level and given a +1d10 damage mod - even scimitar, rapier, kukri. These weapons weren't made or created because someone had some magical mysterious sense of balance - oftentimes they were thrown in because someone had exactly the opposite, and over the years the people who did actually know what's up have had to fix and compensate for them.

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Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham

Tormak.. when you understand that picture, you are free to come back to this thread and edit some of the ridiculous claims you're making on balance and me wanting to request something powerful that'd break the server balance..

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Account Name: Karnak_71
Character Name: Hanamori Saya
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=68657&p=1134526#p1134526

I'm exactly aware of what you want, and I'm telling you you shouldn't get it, because it sets precedents and breaks balance issues that you have had explained to you several times. Copy pasting your picture doesn't make you any more correct, and it doesn't make you any less guilty of what you're doing: Trying to get one personal thing done that you say your character deserves because of purposeful build choices you made, when disagreeing with the actual arguement you say you're making, which is that aesthetics should not be punished.

You didn't answer the question: Why am I being punished because I want my Scimitar to look like a Light Hammer? I should not be mechanically punished because of style and vanity.

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Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham

My reasoning still stands, that RP builds should not be spit on. It should be commended. Im happy to see someone who usually go power builds decided to not go a power build even if it's preplanned to be "shit".

And I understand the balance talk. If you change 1 thing you need to balance up the others.

Speaking of the shield, what makes it breaking the rules of requests? I mean there is small shields who is as good as a mundane tower shield in DnD overall. Is it cause this shield has the same stats people get aggressive over it?

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Plays:
Sylveera : Sun Elven fury packed in an Arcane Archer, not a Drow, promise.
Tetrik : Greed incarnate in a Duergar.
Budly : Has gone to a better place.
Barrililath : Shadowy Drow, probably less Drow than Sylv ever be.

That line shows you don't get it, no. People who understood what would have been requested are probably wondering what the hell you're talking about whenever you mention "balance". Saya can already wear a tower shield.



If there was a scimitar with a light hammer appearance available in the haks, how would that break the server balance if you picked it? It would confuse people fighting you as they would shield against bludgeon thinking you have a slashing weapon in hand, but the comparison was pretty bad to begin with..

A 1 for 1 comparison would be the following:

"If it were possible to have a rapier with the appearance of a rapier changed to a rapier with the appeance of a smaller rapier with the exact same dmg type, damage, crit range as a normal regular rapier, would that anger people or create problems with the balance!?"

Hint: the answer to that would be "no"...

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Account Name: Karnak_71
Character Name: Hanamori Saya
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=68657&p=1134526#p1134526

Y'know, after re-reading them, I was going to post the definitions of style and vain, but why? It's clear you don't care what the words mean, but thank you for posting your opinion on what you think they are.

Just because someone dresses in style, or with style, does not make them vain. Seriously, read the definitions, they are not the same words, nor do they have the same meanings. Please try to refrain from giving misinformation when attempting to support your opinions.

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We have plenty of blue tower shields.

If you want the protection of a tower shield, pick one of them.

If you want a tiny weeny shield that is barely bigger than your forearm, you won't have as much full body protection as you have with a shield that covers 70% of your body.

Pretty much all there is to it.

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For what it's worth, my opinion is the same as Tormak's here.

I know it wouldn't give you any benefits at all, save for getting the appearance on the shield that you actually want. However the astral blade proves a point. Back when it was teh only 1d10 weapon on the server, it wasn't concidered OP because it was still a longsword. The same is true for certain spells and abilities that people got approved in the past. Even if there's special circumstances to something existing, it's possible for those to be forgotten over time and eventually, maybe even years afterwards, people see it again and the circumstances around it are forgotten.

Approving it once, means you're going to be faced with others that want it as well. A light shield that functions like a towershield because of appearances isn't the issue here. It's the fact that it'd be a +7 AC shield that got approved. Regardless of the reasons for it, there's always a chance they will be forgotten over the years and then there will be a presidence for people getting them. There's been others who's requested such light shields in the past because they wanted the appearance of a smaller one and they've all gotten rejected for this reason alone. Not because it's by itself overpowered or unfair, but simply because it's +7 or +6.

I know it sucks and feels unfair, but unless the DM team is willing to open up for this, and then make and maintain a list of who's gotten what approved and why of these items specifically, it's just not going to happen. And even then, it means they have to deal with a whole new line of requests and people likely getting upset of it not getting approved if it doesn't. There's a reason for the regulations, even when they don't make sense. It's why there's an upper limit to powers on requestable items, even if that item on that spesific character is way worse than another option. Why you can't get an item approved that's worse on your char or build than it would be on another. Why a sorc can't request an item that'd be shit for them but godly on a weapon master or something, to make up for a build deficiency.

The only realistic choice here is to either use a towershield, or use what looks better and loose out on the AC. It's the same choice other people have to make with their chars, like with several of my characters armor styles not being as I want them because different AC values have different appearances. Why I can't have an undershirt on my shirt armor from the 2 base AC chestpieces and instead get the fugly one with a deep v neck, to name one example. Because getting +2 armor with uncapped dexmod would present a balance issue down the line, even if it's only approved for appearance reasons and in line with what you can already get mechanically. It'd have to be taken into account and remembered if I request a rebuild in 3-4 years time on that character, where it could give me an advantage. It'll have to be taken into account in a whole new set of circumstances as well, that can't be predicted or foreseen.

So yeah.. while I agree that it would be fine and right to get it approved, as it's only for the sake of appearances.. There is a balance issue and other issues that can come of it further down the line and it's why you have to bite the sour apple and pick either towershield or the buckler that looks better for your char.

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Adair - Druid and part time treant cosplayer

This is called a dagger, and if you want to use a dagger, go use a dagger. So yes, unless you are going to completely change every weapon across the board, I do have a problem with you using a dagger and calling it a rapier and wanting the exact same stats. Because they are not the same.

Unless you are saying you do agree with every one of my listed points? Otherwise, that'sfine, you can continue to argue from your position of aesthetics and vanity. No one has any problem with that. The problem is when you say it doesn't affect balance, when it very clearly does have an affect on the game. It might not affect your very specific pre planned, purposefully inferior designed build that you've designed it to not affect, but for other people who the game is required to be balanced around as well, it could have an affect on them. It's inherently unfair to approve something for you that won't be approved for another player on the shaky grounds of "well your build is worse", so it shouldn't be approved for anyone.

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Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham

You can't go rock-crawling in a lambo.

Aesthetic choice and style has physical limitations and consequences just like literally every choice you make. (For all you know, Sayas theme of blue may one day get her murdered in the street by someone offended by the color, life can be exciting like that). If you character doesn't like big bulky clanky shields, they don't get the protection of having a big, bulky clanky shield. Not that my say means much but I would generally be opposed to any such item being made on any level, be it a small shield with tower shield stats (or a tower shield meant to match small shield stats if someone wanted it) or chain meant to mimic full plate, or a dagger with rapier or scimitar stats. They are different things, and the different size and style of them directly impacts their effectiveness. That is WHY they look the way the are. Form and function are VERY closely related, particularly when it comes to weapons and armor.

Also I'm not 100% certain why powerbuild or lack thereof is relevant to this discussion. Any item the DMs approve or disapprove is in part looked at I believe through the window of "is this fair to allow anyone to have" so any item that gets approved has to be looked through the window of could something similar be abused by someone who IS a powerbuild in the future, because if they do approve it, it sets precedent like Grave said.

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Sir Taelar Ardelyn of Wiltun
Winner of the Razor Tongued Award 2015!

Kira "Penny" Sigers
Better than Boulderdash!

Well given they already disallow stuff based off builds I don't see that changing, something might be deemed to powerful for one player and not for another.

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================-<Cory ShadowFlame>-================
Risenlord-Shifter(OMG a Non-Dragon Shifter that can hold his own in PvE)

I feel like there would be ways around this... And I don't see the big deal in requesting a shield appearance to be changed from tower to small... Truth is, it doesn't break the game any more than someone wearing full plate and then using the robe appearance options available in the crafting menu. I agree with +7 on a request item will complicate things. But in this circumstance it is all how you are perceiving situation. The request could either be of a +7 item, or merely an appearance change and nothing else.

There's just a point where the DMs have to say no, you wish to make a Small shield, which barely covers anything, to be as effective as a Tower shield, which can be half the size of a human.

Well, I hate to be that guy but my character uses a Small shield because I prefer it OOCly, I am losing out on 2 AC but I don't really care either way and if you truly just wanted it for aesthetic purposes, then you wouldn't mind using the small shield without buffing it up to the level of a Tower shield.

Right now it sounds like you want to have the cake and eat it too, keep the small appearance while having the mechanical value of the best shield.

dont know why anyone would bring up the size as a reason for something providing more protection
try holding out a 50 pound sheet of metal at half arms length and tell me how protected you feel
if youre arguing practicality, a small, light shield is going to offer more protection to an individual because it can be used to deflect blows easier
something large and unwieldy only works in formations, and even there, isnt going to be more than 10 pounds at most

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Let me try it this way: Try to block an arrow with a small buckler and then try it with a giant shield (Of course you need the strength to carry it too)

And keep in mind that this is STILL a fantasy setting, where people can carry up to 6 tons with the right build, so waving a massive shield around would not be a problem.

The point is: A giant shield in a setting where people can lift an ox will be more effective than a small buckler in most situations, especially when it comes to blocking arrows or frontal attacks.

This is really something where I won't change my mind, I am giving up AC for vanity, while the player that started this topic wishes to cheese it by getting a Small shield with tower shield values, that's not going to go over well with most people.

Everyone should be held to the same standards, just because you gimp your character, that doesn't mean that you should be allowed to get superior items.

no it wont
weight distribution and torque matter more than strength
fork lifts can lift quite a deal more weight than any dexer could but will still flip if they dont have proper counter weights

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The most important point remains: +5 is the limit (Gloves not included) and I am against raising that threshold for the sake of vanity of one player.

What would be next? a +7 Dagger because you wanted to use a smaller sword without giving up the damage of the larger / Stronger (mechanical) weapon? I am sorry, but I won't change my mind on this without a legit reason that could affect balance, but we are merely talking about vanity, something that should not keep a person that gimped himself/herself on purpose from equipping the small shield like everyone else.

I am using a small shield, should I request a +7 Small shield so I can have the same mechanical value of a Tower shield? no, It's my choice to gimp myself, so I only have this to say: Deal with it and use a tower shield or remain true to what you claim by using the +5 small shield, simple as that.

this really isn't a request to set a precedent of higher power equipment, it's a fringe case of cosmetics. I personally support cosmetic changes, which this is. It's not trying to open the gates for +7 weapons and armor, it's just trying to emulate a tower shield while using a smaller ingame model.

I don't think the argument of "my build sucks so I should get gear compensation" is a valid one, I firmly believe that you can have your char and a good build at the same time, people just choose not to. What you can't do is have a tower shield that looks like this one. Given the community's belief that this would set a new precedent and open the door to more issues though I'd say it's best we let this one rest and Hana just use the ingame shield to take a 2 ac penalty (really not a big deal, you're a dexer, heck str chars make it just fine with 55-57 AC

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bad man

No, because adding +7 bucklers means anyone can get them. A buckler with +7.

As soon as this goes in expect me to make an identical request on my shifter and druids.

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ANT ALARM

ANT ALARM

This is setting a precedent. It will mean that if this is approved, everyone can get a "cosmetic change" approved. That's not how things work. If you want a shield, you wear a shield. If you want a bigger shield, you wear a bigger shield. This throws me back a few years ago at the post invisible cloaks debate where people were arguing to make invisible shields a thing. When you make a build, you have the same tools at your disposal than anyone else. Gimp at your own risk and perils.

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In case it was missed on the first page:

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In case you missed it.

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No, I didn't miss it, and I wasn't trying to be a dick, it was a simple reminder due to two comments that lead me to believe that it may have been missed that the shield would not be permitted.




Sorry if it came across as being that way, it wasn't intended.

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If the precedent is "cosmetic change no mechanical benefit" then yes, yes it does create a precedent. I think you're hung up on the idea that amia is not case-by-case basis, of which it is. Cory is a good example of people whose builds alone disallow them to have certain things that might be available to other characters, there are other fringe examples that were also allowed "Because of the character". The reason I'd tell you no on a druid/shifter is the same reason monk has specifically coded penalties for druid/shifter.

I believe your egalitarian approach is good as a rule of thumb, however I see the entire argument cruxing on the idea that this item isn't trying to subvert the rule of thumb for power, but for cosmetics alone. I'd say this is a fringe case rather than a rule of thumb, and you and I both know there are fringe items, spells, and perks to characters all throughout the module with much much more impact than the fringe benefit of this shield for this pc.

Of course if at any point Saya had this shield and requested a rebuild to a shifter (or anything that could abuse the power of this shield) I'd imagine this shield (theoretically) would have to be nerfed back to it's state of homogeny with the rest of the module.


editted like 4 times omg

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bad man

In case people the very first line of this thread: "I would like to premise this discussion by saying that I respect the decision and that I will not push upon said request, unless this thread clearly indicates I should. "

And it doesn't indicate I should.

The only precedent this request would have brought was that anyone who wants to have a similar ----COSMETIC CHANGE---- would have been able to request it. Though, as I said, I would have requested that privately only so that people don't flood the gates with similar request just because they now can (aka, if they had the same idea I had and requested it, they likely would have gotten it privately as well -- exactly like how Dark Immolation requested something similar and got denied too).

What Commie mentions here with his "I'd request one on my shifter" is the exact opposite of what I would have requested, and exactly what the DMs want to avoid (even if the solution is ridiculously easy to solve). They won't allow a cosmetic change like this only because they don't want to deal with powergaming that'd try to get said shield on a character that would cheat from what was originally a harmless cosmetic change.

It's been said before, multiple times, but Saya is not a shifter, and would not ever become a shifter. This shield would have been purely cosmetic and even treated OOCly and never roleplaying as anything else than a small shield. Untradable, unsellable, and even paid with DC and the only benefit would have been to have the same AC as wearing a shield she could already if she wanted (with all the same penalties wearing said shield implies).

Let's be honest here, I am completely baffled that this -example- I gave is shunned this hard. My idea was to have a discussion not on that request-that-never-were, but on the idea of helping out shit builds. That shield was just the perfect poster-child for a perfectly harmless request. YES, it would have been broken as fudge if it were on a shifter. IT ISN'T THOUGH, and never would have been. In no way shape or form that shield would ever been approved on a shapeshifting character either. The staff isn't dumb. These would have gone through specific personal custum requests, and the very same way Cory gets things approved to him differently than another character, that shield would also have been denied to obvious powergamers trying to -cheat- and gain an advantage where they shouldn't. That is called cheating, and last I checked cheating is frowned upon and can earn you a well-deserved ban.

The best (and only valid) argument against this specific request is that if such would have been requested and approved, that it would have taken a lot of time to deal with other potential requests alike that it could have spawned. That's the only good reason given in my honest opinion.. which would have been avoided entirely because made public (the same you would not have heard about it if I didn't open this discussion thread way after I asked for the shield. And again.. go back to the first line of this thread.


Edit: I refuse to consider that "You went for RP choices that make you weaker than Bro Joe the powerbuild, so suffer the consequences" is a good approach on a RP server like Amia. I repeat, I am not in favor of making them stronger than Joe. However if a request like that, that does very little in even making Saya close to equal to what she could be if she had a powerbuild is denied on the basis that "It's your fault for making her suck and picking an inferior item / appearance", then I believe this thread absolutely needs to exist and this discussion needs to be had.

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Account Name: Karnak_71
Character Name: Hanamori Saya
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=68657&p=1134526#p1134526

Getting a +7 on a server capped at +5 is not a cosmetic change.

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ANT ALARM

ANT ALARM

Didn't see the edit.

If you want a good build to rebuild into let me know. I do lots of builds for people.

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ANT ALARM

ANT ALARM

The problem is you seem convinced that building around RP cannot be done with power in mind. If you get a cosmetic change for a small-shield-with-tower-power, everyone can get it. This has -nothing- to do with your build, as you've already said your build can have a tower shield, and you just refuse to wear one. You are baffled by the shunning, but you keep spitting on "powerbuilders" like they are pvp-hungry whores, but most of them are just number-crunching nerds who also enjoy RP. If you want a Tower Shield, you wield a Tower Shield. I make the conscious decision to "gimp" my characters out of the Tower Shield specifically because of a cosmetic issue. I hate the look of tower shields, and I shouldn't be given a privilege because of my preferences. That goes for -everyone-.

You chose to make a shit character, accept these facts. My cleric is pure 30 because of her religious devotion. As a priestess of Mask, I could've -easily- justified shoving rogue levels in there for optimal digits on AC net me Evasion, but I chose not too. If I wanted Evasion, would I request an item with it on it? No. I would take 2 rogue levels. Now, if I wanted to get the AC from a tower shield, I would wear a tower shield. Not wear a small shield and ask a boosted version for "cosmetic purposes". Cosmetics have their price. You don't want to carry the barndoor-sized shield around, you don't get it's benefits. You don't want to dip your toes in better builds, you don't get their benefits.

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Also as people that actually ask me about builds realize, you can have identical rp and just way higher numbers.

Or the worst offenders, when I don't even change the build just the level people take classes and feats and suddenly they gain four or five ab and three free new epic feats.

On the Same. Build.

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ANT ALARM

ANT ALARM

I made that clear before, but I know how to build. I know exactly where and how Saya's build is bad and how it could be improved upon if I had wanted. This isn't a problem of not being able to build right, it's a matter of Saya as she has to be, cannot be made strong unless sacrificing things which I decided should stay on her. With the current stats and current feats and all that she has, she cannot be made stronger without sacrificing things.

Getting a +7 on a server capped at +5 ----IS---- a cosmetic change in this very specific case. That +7 shield would NOT be approved on the one case where it isn't just a cosmetic change. No shifters, no druid, no shapeshifter character would ever be approved with such a shield, even if I had requested it and got it approved. This +7 small shield was mechanically the exact same thing as a +5 tower shield and would have been on everything except for a shape shifting character, which it would never have been approved on -even- if Saya had received it.

As for making good RP builds and powerbuilds - That is possible, yes. I have done so multiple times in the past. But let's be honest, how many characters actually even roleplay their stats or classes right? Or their feats? I know I do.. I know a lot don't.

Here's a small list of wrongs just for funsake (feel free to comment on it in --PM--)

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Account Name: Karnak_71
Character Name: Hanamori Saya
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=68657&p=1134526#p1134526

Fix those things then instead of asking for op items to one the gap.

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ANT ALARM

ANT ALARM

The things is, you don't get to make the rules to palliate for your sacrifices. If you want to fix your "weaknesses", you rebuild. That's the tool everyone has access too and doesn't break anything.

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i', sorry if I offend you with this, and I did not read every post.

But did this not started as you asking for a tower shield with the looks of that blue small dragon wing shield, because you said there are no blue tower shields?

Now you stated it is that you actually want a small shield and will rp it in that way regardless. just with the power of a tower?

If tower with looks of blue, idd say ask for enlarged version of it in the next hak and wait. ( I know might take a while)
If small with the power of tower.. I don't see how this is cosmetic, as you really want to play with a small, just the POWER of a tower = power is not cosmetic, power is power.


I can understand the frustration, but if you want to play with a small shield then you got to play with a small shield.

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Current on active duty:
-Main-Lanerd Mc Stone-Fists - Go Feck yerself ya bloody crap face
Elisa Fryar - proude MageGaurd of Cor... guldorand. (Not relatet)
Maruz Blackfeet - Go team evil GO

Starter of the Mage revolution

Mushidoz, why have exotic weapons proficiency if you only use a kama?

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Deacon Lott-Merchant

Kama
Proficiency: exotic, monk

As the character is a bard, it doesn't have access to monk proficiency, therefore to use a kama the character requires exotic.

I am only speculating here, so take this claim with a grain of salt: The kama was chosen for the character due to the weapon's Japanese history which is in line with the other Japanese elements present in the character's design.

Now i am probably one of the biggest Fashion whores on this server, every char i make before hand i already have a crafted helm, weapon, shield, armor and color schemed and worked out. For most i even take screen shots and make it into their portrait. I think shields are probably the hardest to work around for what i'm going for. So i feel your pain. I am also not the greatest at builds either. I like to make weird builds to fit there Rp aspect i have in mind. I have scummed to the fact i'm also pretty much the worse Boss hunter in the history of Amia. My builds can't Solo nere notta no bosses. lol So welcome to the club of shit builds.

But with that said, i'm against what your asking for. I think the Dm's are right on there position and your just going to have to suck it up Buttercup. I'm sorry but balance has to be kept and what your asking will open up a flood gate of folks saying there Rp Build is shitty and i want this and that to improve it. Replace exotic weapons proficiency with Blind fight and it will help out some. Or just find a shield that's not in our mod you like and request it be added. Maybe a few months it will be added.

P.S. think your Toon Hanna looks Badass by the way.

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Deacon Lott-Merchant

Ahh kkk did not know that. Uhh hello, katana! Already have the feat for it!

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Deacon Lott-Merchant

As a Dev I just cannot get behind this idea.

Even when I was strictly a player I wouldn't like this. If you choose to make a gimped build, that is what you choose. And like Ama said, there are blue tower shields. It would be better to make more options than to allow something like this.

Also, this isn't spitting on RP builds. If you make an RP build... then the mechanics shouldn't actually matter. That's what I did with my original cleric. She is a total RP build and I am not upset she can't get the same power level as everyone else. Trying to make everyone even is boring and too much work to put into for no reason. Not everyone is the same, not everyone has the same ability, not everyone is going ot get to the same 'level'. That's life, both in the real and Faerun.

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Whomst've'll'd'mn't I play:
Salema Nefahri :: A penny for your thots
Zrae'a'stra'fryn :: That which nightmares are made of
Khasir :: From the East a storm is coming

The irony of this statement is that it can be the same reasoning for judging things largely upon RP merit and end result, rather than arbitrary numbers and implementation(what a shield actually is vs how it functions).



This is the crux of the idea, and I think a few wires are crossed in its understanding. As I've already said, I can agree with the current outlook and practice, but still disagree with the theory. That is more because I know our workforce limitations in respect to the issue and less that I agree with the reasons behind it. Here's a thought experiment and it doesn't necessarily need to be answered. It can be completely rhetorical. But I think it well help clarify both sides of the argument as I see them.

In an ideal RP Gameworld, the most capable("strongest") PC's are ______?

For this case, let's say that "those who have the roleplay to back it up." We want people, players, PC's with roleplay to be the most capable. In a world that is RP-based, we want those have the chops to back up what they claim. Well, build is not separate from roleplay. We are told many times to roleplay our builds, reminded of it. That is to say, if your PC have all 8 or Lower mental stats, you should in all likelihood not find yourself in a position of leadership(at least not for long). You probably shouldn't be the first one in a room to come up with an idea, the first to understand it, or the first to put it into words. Alas, no one's really here to enforce that. A DM might slap you on the hands if they find you behaving out of character, but there is never a DM over your shoulder for a vast majority of your time on Amia. To the extent that your build is a reflection of your RP, that you ARE the strongest at hitting things/casting Wail and GSing/HiPSing and attacking, it is correct. It is correct because you have no other redeeming qualities BUT to be that in RP. You are the Mountain, you are MODOK, you are Mongo.

To that end, the "if for one, then for all" idea supports the idea that those with the RP, mechanical RP of the build, remain the strongest. It shouldn't matter if you any other non-mechanical abilities higher than me, the only leg up I have on you is that I am mechanically stronger for having none of them. Everyone gets the same thing, because to do otherwise is to neglect my sacrifices I made to be the strongest. In theory.

The flip side of that idea is that social skills, RP-based build decisions, all of those are not made into a vacuum. I'm not making myself a "shit build" by taking 14 in all mental stats as a fighter, ideally. I'm making myself stronger and more capable in ways that the min-max build should not be. I can think in new ways that Mongo cannot, I have the knowledge and skill that would allow me to do things he cannot. DMs are not around all the time to cater to that notion, though. They're not there to give mechanical firmness to things that would indeed contribute to mechanics, be it leadership or knowledge or synergy from multiple areas. So, it leaves a world, where AC and Ab are king and queen, and where people must ask themselves "why should I bother with RP elements of my build, if 90% of the time they will not factor in?"

To this end, "if for one, then for all" is counter to the notion of not just rewarding roleplay, but respecting it. It's not a matter of making "shit builds good," but you we are actively keeping them shitty by respecting nothing but what is already mechanical. No, Mongo does NOT get to get my requested Leadership shout ability, too. He doesn't have the build to back it up. No, the Mountain does NOT get to get my Great Mace of Ogre Smiting. He doesn't have the Lore to find it or build it or wield it properly or any other rubric that might exist. And disallowing it on the offchance it one day might end up in his hands anyway is to say to say to all "the limits of what can be achieved are set by those least likely and capable of achieving them." Meaning, we are balanced by the lowest common denominator: great for a gameworld based solely off of numbers, poor if not laughable to a world supposedly based on roleplay. We give no incentive to do otherwise but min-max, and no amount of browbeating from DMs will convince people that it is anything more than a matter of not wanting to deal with a difficult issue. Which it is and which we feasibly could be incapable of dealing with. But at least call a spade a spade rather than pretend it to be something else, eh?

As far as I'm concerned, the old method was never really one or another. Giving leeway to more RP oriented builds, having that gut-judgement check was less about making "shit builds" better, but understanding that people who did not min-max could easily get shafted by the very, very, very narrow set of abilities that determines a PC's mechanical strength. Maybe it doesn't make them equal, but "equal" wasn't really the goal. It was understanding that roleplay needed to be respected somehow in ways it wasn't necessarily recognized as stats on a page.

Now. As much as it matters to me, there is merit on both sides. And I don't see the good in demonizing people who hold tighter to the merits of one argument over another here. It's just... not the fucking point for me to get on some 10 year old video game forum and accuse people of personal interest or laziness or being to stubborn to change. Not when, as I've pointed out, there is very valid reasoning in both cases here, which is an occasion of rejoicing in my book. The Mini-Tower is fine because it would be nothing more than an appearance change, mechanically. The Mini-Tower is not fine in the end because it trivializes the choice of shields. Small Shields in general are probably in need of love in other ways, however, given that we've made it so damn easily to ignore all the factors that should make one choose a small shield over a tower(weight, ASF, armor check penalty). Both tower and small require the same feat or base classes, yet there is no reason to choose the later over the former, except for wanting one appearance over another. If nothing else, that is an issue to be solved from all of this.

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