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Amarice-Elaraliel
 
PostPosted: Mon, Mar 13 2017, 19:03 PM 

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Now that more people are inclined to dip heavily into RDD, we will pull the lore that comes with it a bit tighter. Especially since you get free, additional appearance changes, without having to proof your ritualistic RP.

The rules for level 1-10 RDD remain the same. You may be 1 step out of alignment in any direction.

If you go past level 10 RDD (so 11-20) this gets tightened to only 1 step on the same good/evil/neutral axis.

This means the following for our standard RDD races (from level 11 RDD onwards):

Green: LE or NE
Blue: LE or NE
Black: CE or NE
White: CE or NE
Red: CE or NE

Shadow: CE or NE

Gold: LG or NG
Silver: LG or NG
Copper: CG or NG
Brass: CG or NG
Bronze: LG or NG

At this point you simply are getting so close to your dragon heritage, in mind and appearance, that as a metallic being not good or a chromatic being not evil, is not reasonably possible.


P.S. Any other dragon types than our default are not listed here, as they require a request anyways.

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Commie
 
PostPosted: Mon, Mar 13 2017, 19:10 PM 

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Great change. Will this require current "out of regulation" rdd's to get an alignment shift?

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TormakSaber
 
PostPosted: Mon, Mar 13 2017, 20:58 PM 

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Excellent change.

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LunarBloom
 
PostPosted: Tue, Mar 14 2017, 2:14 AM 

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Amazing. Nothing made me cringe more than obvious dragon disciples of neutral alignment. *shudders*

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Jes
 
PostPosted: Wed, Mar 15 2017, 1:24 AM 

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bookofvirtue
 
PostPosted: Wed, Mar 15 2017, 3:30 AM 



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1-So that means any lawfull dragon wont be able to build using a bard.

2-Wich means that all other dragons witll have an edge over them powerwise.

3- Lore wise per example, Gold dragons should be more powerfull then other colors and sadly, building a sorc rdd is less strong then the bard version.

4- No bards can be lawfull... ever?

5- Fun change for rp, maybe, on amia its just another meh change for balance.


 
      
Commie
 
PostPosted: Wed, Mar 15 2017, 3:32 AM 

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bookofvirtue wrote:
1-So that means any lawfull dragon wont be able to build using a bard.

2-Wich means that all other dragons witll have an edge over them powerwise.

3- Lore wise per example, Gold dragons should be more powerfull then other colors and sadly, building a sorc rdd is less strong then the bard version.

4- No bards can be lawfull... ever?

5- Fun change for rp, maybe, on amia its just another meh change for balance.


You can be a NG or NE 'lawful' dragon and take bard. Bard is non-lawful not 'any chaotic.'

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TormakSaber
 
PostPosted: Wed, Mar 15 2017, 7:10 AM 

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Yeah, the N's are specifically there because of bard. This doesn't change anything except removing "I'm a CG Red Dragon Disciple" as an option.

It never should have been an option.

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Amarice-Elaraliel
 
PostPosted: Wed, Mar 15 2017, 12:59 PM 

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Correct, you can still take bard on any RDD build.

So point 1-5 from bookofvirtue are all moot.

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OpenTheRift
 
PostPosted: Wed, Mar 15 2017, 14:59 PM 

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This binds them along the good evil spectrum to stay true. They are still allowed a step along law and chaos. This of course means the bards are still free game

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Izii
 
PostPosted: Sat, Mar 25 2017, 8:19 AM 

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As someone who plays one of those 'obvious neutral dragon disciples', there are neutral-aligned draconic deities such as Chronepsis (draconic death god), Aasterinian (draconic luck god) and Io (pretty much apathetic Ao draconic deity). These are pulled from the Draconomicon for 3rd Edition/3.5e, Religion section.

Now! My second statement is that there is also the fact that we're playing adventurers, people who are meant to rise above the norm in so many ways that outshine NPC counterparts. The characters we play are supposed to be a product of their backstory, decisions, and influences of other characters they interact with. It feels awfully crude to retroactively force this upon existing dragon disciples, I am completely fine if there was a on-request basis on new up-and-coming dragon disciples who wish to play an alignment adverse or neutral to their type's norm.

As for the ritualistic side, going into the Dungeon Master's Guide and reading up on Dragon Disciple, it has no real alignment restrictions to begin with. That many who take the prestige literally take it for an extra boost in their melee potential and raw strength. While others might treat it as a deeply personal and ritualistic experience. It's something I could see anyone playing out with their character in any number of fashions. Perhaps their trials and struggles as an adventurer is revealing new heights of the draconic blood that was latent in them? What if they're a sorcerer who is actively enriching their blood; Or a warrior who merely wants to understand how to fuel this newfound strength in order to crush his foes?

The case I make is this: I'm prepared to go full disclosure and start screen-shot journalistic style showing reasons as to why my Red Dragon Disciple, Kholkikos'aionios, managed to walk a very thin line between being a proud, arrogant and otherwise non-evil minded grouch. Refusing to become a lesser being and striving towards a dream of creating his own legacy. I don't mind disclosing an entire backstory and reasoning as to why he came to this conclusion, and I'm certain I have a handful of players who have been involved with the character can agree that I've put time into playing him on this path of intrigue.

I hope you read this in full and took time to consider it.


 
      
Jes
 
PostPosted: Sat, Mar 25 2017, 14:14 PM 

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That's how it is in the DMG, yes, but it has been ruled here on Amia differently. DMs often overrule things from PnP, and this is just one of them. I personally think the lore rulings on Dragon Disciple give the class deeper lore and broader opportunity to explore different facets of taking on such traits and mannerisms - rather than just being something you take to enhance your character's strength and ignore afterward.

This additional alignment ruling is only for those after 10 Dragon Disciple, for good reason. And it aligns with all the other Amia-ruled lore with the class. As a red dragon disciple plunges onward into epic DD levels, his neutral outlook and religious beliefs might be challenged by the ferocity and cruelty of the red dragon he embodies. You don't get to pick and choose which aspects of the dragon you're going to emulate, after all.

It just leads to more opportunities for RP. And, as I've found, excellent ones for character growth and internal and external conflict. :D

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Commie
 
PostPosted: Sat, Mar 25 2017, 15:05 PM 

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If you make a special 'neutral' RDD based off a neutral dragon, can you go one step to good or evil or must you remain neutral? What exactly defines neutral behavior in this case?

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Izii
 
PostPosted: Sat, Mar 25 2017, 15:33 PM 

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I do not mind the fact it's a willing decision, nor do I mind it requires rituals and the like. I'm fine with that, it's how I've been playing the whole time. That aside.

Jes wrote:
This additional alignment ruling is only for those after 10 Dragon Disciple, for good reason. And it aligns with all the other Amia-ruled lore with the class. As a red dragon disciple plunges onward into epic DD levels, his neutral outlook and religious beliefs might be challenged by the ferocity and cruelty of the red dragon he embodies. You don't get to pick and choose which aspects of the dragon you're going to emulate, after all.


It's so easy to forget that red dragons in particular are forward thinkers and meticulous about planning strategies for perceived encounters and battles for the future. Or that they will often spare creatures perceived to be weaker and easily bullied in order to gain information or a service. They also know when to back down to avoid being bested in battle. Sure, they're prone to emotional and rage-fueled outbursts, though that's tempered by their pride in themselves. They believe they're the pinnacle of dragon mentality, and seek to be that way.

As for your last line, you literally just nullify any form of representing a struggle with an adventurer who strives to suppress and contain such aspects they wish to emulate while indulging others. This is central to my play as my dragon disciple, that he spends every ounce of his focus trying to rise above and be regal, proud and full of himself while not striking out at every perceived insult (be it real or not). Suddenly telling me to absolutely change the way I play my character is countermand to allowing a player freedom to strive towards their intentions with a character. I may as well play the character like an NPC with a pre-written script created by someone else on how I should act as my character, if this is the case. I won't do it.


 
      
Jes
 
PostPosted: Sat, Mar 25 2017, 15:54 PM 

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I wasn't saying you needed to change how you RP. I've never seen your character, so that would be completely silly of me to do. I specifically said that it led to opportunities for such things. Not "Every DD has to be exactly the same as all others." I used red as an example, not to single you out.

I do stand by my opinion that you can't just ignore the aspects of the dragon you don't want, though. A copper DD with 18 DD levels should struggle with covetousness or greed and not just be focused on the happy-go-lucky jokester that is most known. But that's just my opinion, for the sake of deep and meaningful character growth that encompasses all the many different aspects of the copper dragon.

As an example.

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Commie
 
PostPosted: Sat, Mar 25 2017, 16:15 PM 

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I don't think someone with 18 RDD should be 'fighting against their nature.' That stops at 10. If you keep going past that point, you're willingly accepting more traits onto yourself, including the host dragons character flaws.

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Jes
 
PostPosted: Sat, Mar 25 2017, 16:19 PM 

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I didn't mean struggling as in fighting inwardly with it, so much as struggling with the way it changes relationships and lifestyles. Another example: Copper DD completes another ritual and starts acting in greedy ways here and there. A close childhood friend notices, and sees how much the rituals have affected their friend, and the friend doesn't like it. The copper DD loses that childhood friend they've known for years, as a result of growing covetousness.

That is a different kind of struggle.

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Commie
 
PostPosted: Sat, Mar 25 2017, 16:23 PM 

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Jes wrote:
I didn't mean struggling as in fighting inwardly with it, so much as struggling with the way it changes relationships and lifestyles. Another example: Copper DD completes another ritual and starts acting in greedy ways here and there. A close childhood friend notices, and sees how much the rituals have affected their friend, and the friend doesn't like it. The copper DD loses that childhood friend they've known for years, as a result of growing covetousness.

That is a different kind of struggle.


I agree with you, I was responding to this;

Izii wrote:
As for your last line, you literally just nullify any form of representing a struggle with an adventurer who strives to suppress and contain such aspects they wish to emulate while indulging others. This is central to my play as my dragon disciple, that he spends every ounce of his focus trying to rise above and be regal, proud and full of himself while not striking out at every perceived insult (be it real or not). Suddenly telling me to absolutely change the way I play my character is countermand to allowing a player freedom to strive towards their intentions with a character. I may as well play the character like an NPC with a pre-written script created by someone else on how I should act as my character, if this is the case. I won't do it.


I think if you have a lot of RDD (>10) you need to just be acting like the host dragon and not taking steps so you can actively rebel against its and your own nature.

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Jes
 
PostPosted: Sat, Mar 25 2017, 16:26 PM 

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Oh! I see!

Haha, sorry. I'm bored at work this morning, but apparently still distracted enough.

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Commie
 
PostPosted: Sat, Mar 25 2017, 16:31 PM 

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Yeah, it's just something I don't get. Why take so many steps to indulge your nature and then fight against it?

It's one thing to make an alignment argument as alignments as a system are terrible, but I think it's different to actually go that hard into RDD but then not do the behavioral things your host dragon is known for.

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Izii
 
PostPosted: Sat, Mar 25 2017, 17:04 PM 

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I say indulge as in not bothering to control aspects that you find appealing. It's the same for someone who has a problem with "rageaholic" syndrome. You know what you did was horrible afterwards, but in the moment you might have felt justified for whatever reason you can dream up. It's like fighting an impulse, while letting others slide as a result. Can't fight an inner war on several fronts.

And why should the dragon disciple lose a childhood friend? What if that friend helped them realize what is happening and begun to steps to resist and maintain themselves? I'm talking along the lines of redeeming someone from their worse selves - which is something that I soundly believe is always a possibility and especially for dragon disciples of all types. Hell, if the redeemed villain example from 3.5 rulebooks is a mind flayer monk, why can't a dragon disciple rise above their pettier influences?


 
      
Amarice-Elaraliel
 
PostPosted: Sat, Mar 25 2017, 18:28 PM 

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RDD is much different on Amia than PnP, as we allow (most) dragons as decendants.

While there are many dragon deities, the dragons themselves 'usually' are not very religious, apart of maybe minor lipservice. There are exceptions to everything, but that is how it is.

You have two options now, and I believe they are more than fair.

1. You want to descend from an evil dragon, but remain neutral, you stay below 11 RDD levels.

2. You want to be a high level dragon disciple, but also neutral, request to be a decendant of one of the many neutral dragons.

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Izii
 
PostPosted: Sat, Mar 25 2017, 18:47 PM 

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First option is moot, the character is beyond eleven levels. As for the second option? No, I won't just suddenly change what's been a defining aspect of the character and a major part of his path of redemption and ongoing story. There are such things as personal struggle to fight one's darker impulses, it's how there's such things as redeemed villains.

While you believe your options are fair, I do not, and I still firmly disagree with this new rule as it doesn't expand RP. It hinders the potential for intrigue, story building and freedom for players to do with their character as they've desired. I'm not asking for simply hand waving things off, though I am requesting it should be considered on a case-by-case basis. Especially for people who've had already built characters and been enjoying them.


 
      
TormakSaber
 
PostPosted: Sat, Mar 25 2017, 19:19 PM 

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I mean, you can disagree with the rule and make a reques to be an exception, but you don't get to just tell the rules of the server "No" and do whatever you please.

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Izii
 
PostPosted: Sat, Mar 25 2017, 20:08 PM 

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You misunderstand me. I wish to be judged on my roleplay as the character and what I've done rather than be retroactively slotted into something I do not want for my character. Doing so would feel utterly ruinous to what I've been building towards and how I've played the character to date.

My standing is firmly stated and probably misunderstood because I really, really do not want to suddenly have loads of time that other people have shared with me and my character tossed to the wind. I wrote up my ideas and played mannerisms and backstory based off rules I had awareness of, only to be told I better suddenly play and act evil because there's a new rule that suddenly dictates how I should play my character. Who was created and being played as before this rule went into effect.

No one would enjoy having this happen, and I certainly don't either.


 
      
robbi320
 
PostPosted: Sat, Mar 25 2017, 20:33 PM 



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I'd suggest taking this to PMs with the DM team, since that is pretty much the only place where you will likely be judged on your RP. Tormak's (or anyone else's, like mine) doesn't really matter to your specific case. They can see what levels you were when, so that pretty much solves the issue.


 
      
TormakSaber
 
PostPosted: Sat, Mar 25 2017, 21:14 PM 

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Mine wasn't an opinion, it was a statement of fact about the server.

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robbi320
 
PostPosted: Sun, Mar 26 2017, 7:53 AM 



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Sorry. You are correct. (I'm just a bit confused, because while I meant opinion, it's not written there...) I don't know why I was thinking of opinion there. You are correct, rule is rule.

If I may word it differently: Since DMs are the judges of things like that, the easiest and most practical way (and one that doesn't neccessary spoil a part of your character's story) would me to PM the DM team about this.


 
      
TormakSaber
 
PostPosted: Sun, Mar 26 2017, 8:18 AM 

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Yups, I'd agree there.

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Izii
 
PostPosted: Sun, Mar 26 2017, 16:41 PM 

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I still think it's a horrible rule to suddenly impose (especially retroactively) and that it's not possible for me to have any say upon it. Therefore I took a while to think. Which DM might be best to discuss this with, or should I make a formal request under the appropriate section?


 
      
Commie
 
PostPosted: Sun, Mar 26 2017, 17:48 PM 

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Izii wrote:
I still think it's a horrible rule to suddenly impose (especially retroactively) and that it's not possible for me to have any say upon it. Therefore I took a while to think. Which DM might be best to discuss this with, or should I make a formal request under the appropriate section?


Make a request topic. But in my opinion it's going to be a hard sell, so put a lot of work into it. I think you need to sell why your character being against rdd conduct rules will benefit the server, and not argue that you have always acted a specific way.

If I was in your position that is what I would do anyway.

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PassionateShadow
 
PostPosted: Sun, Mar 26 2017, 17:51 PM 

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I do not like this new ruling.

IMO it's another limitation on roleplay being enforced because those in power to make this ruling do not like what they see. I think it's poor to police other's roleplay in a manner where they have no real say simply because the rules changed. It's like saying you don't like how some one else has fun so they cant have their fun here any more simply because you do not like it.

I understand this is the ruling and it must now be 'accepted' and any one wanting to speak out against it will get the inevitable scorn for wanting to play things with how they most enjoy things. I've always been one to think Player Characters deserve the chance to be different than the absolutes. After all only Sith deal in absolutes.

At the same time I see where the Dm team is coming from with this ruling but I still side with the 'under dogs' here.

But I'll just politely disagree with this ruling despite knowing it's going to be enforced, with out real regard to the players who enjoy that particular niche of roleplay. IMO this is a disappointing ruling.

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Maverick00053
 
PostPosted: Sun, Mar 26 2017, 17:59 PM 

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This ruling like everything else is because we are predominately an RP server with lore and a background that has to be respected and followed. If you are 18 Dragon Disciple you are damn near a representative of dragon of your color, and in the world of most True Dragons there is only absolutes when it comes to alignment and typing.

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PassionateShadow
 
PostPosted: Sun, Mar 26 2017, 18:05 PM 

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IMO you need to treat RDD as a class and follow it's basic restrictions first.
I believe we need to not be allowing half dragons to take RDD lvl's; it should not be allowed.
Race: Any non-dragon (cannot already be a half-dragon) is a restriction of the class that should be followed. By taking RDD class lvl you are literally becoming a half dragon.

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TormakSaber
 
PostPosted: Sun, Mar 26 2017, 18:42 PM 

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Half Dragons also get a bevy of stats and immunities that are only represented by taking the class, as part of their race. Your suggestion makes absolutely no sense.

Also, no, you are not "literally becoming a half dragon".

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PassionateShadow
 
PostPosted: Sun, Mar 26 2017, 18:45 PM 

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That is why half dragons can not take it. There are tools that allow changes to be made to a character to emulate half dragon stats that can very easily be utilized. It is not needed and breaks one of the most basic of rules for the class. IMO. priorities should be set on fixing that and making it re presentable as it would be in PNP.

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LibrisMortis_666
 
PostPosted: Sun, Mar 26 2017, 18:46 PM 

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Dragon Disciples are in no way Half-Dragon, not the basic DDs around Amia. That'll require a hell of a lot of RP.

The Class is a fun way to emulate the powers of their lineage. A Half-Dragon not having 100% Immunity to their element but a DD does? Makes no sense. And by your suggestion, Passionate, you suggest PCS requesting traits that a Half-Dragon /would/ have. Some of them are non-requestable.

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TormakSaber
 
PostPosted: Sun, Mar 26 2017, 19:23 PM 

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PassionateShadow wrote:
That is why half dragons can not take it. There are tools that allow changes to be made to a character to emulate half dragon stats that can very easily be utilized. It is not needed and breaks one of the most basic of rules for the class. IMO. priorities should be set on fixing that and making it re presentable as it would be in PNP.


If you're suggesting half dragon PCs simply be given 8 STR 6 CON 2 INT 4 CHA 100% immunity to element 32 SR then you are absolutely absurd, as I've already said.

This is not the hill you want to die on.

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PassionateShadow
 
PostPosted: Sun, Mar 26 2017, 19:40 PM 

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No no it's not. But the fact remains by taking more RDD lvl you are becoming more draconic...

it stands to reason that a half dragon would become more draconian if they took rdd lvls.

IMO they should be given their breath weapon and given their visual traits for half dragons and a % immunity not 100% to their correlated element.

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Why else do they take on a half dragon template and strictly state you can not be a half dragon to take the class if you aren't essentially becoming more draconian than w/e base race you use? LVL 10 RDD is a big deal. If you're going so far top push alignment to blood at that point I think you should keep in mind that half dragons can not be RDDs.

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Commie
 
PostPosted: Sun, Mar 26 2017, 20:23 PM 

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I think the idea if giving people free stats based on special character requests is dumb. It's why I don't respect dragon pc's, they have normie stats, not 50 str and con or whatever.

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Naivatkal
 
PostPosted: Sun, Mar 26 2017, 20:43 PM 

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Izii wrote:
I still think it's a horrible rule to suddenly impose (especially retroactively) and that it's not possible for me to have any say upon it. Therefore I took a while to think. Which DM might be best to discuss this with, or should I make a formal request under the appropriate section?

This isn't a new ruling, it's how it has always been.

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At 10th level, a dragon disciple takes on the half-dragon template. His breath weapon reaches full strength (as noted above), and he gains +4 to Strength and +2 to Charisma. His natural armor bonus increases to +4, and he acquires low-light vision, 60-foot darkvision, immunity to sleep and paralysis effects, and immunity to the energy type used by his breath weapon.


Why else do they take on a half dragon template and strictly state you can not be a half dragon to take the class if you aren't essentially becoming more draconian than w/e base race you use? LVL 10 RDD is a big deal. If you're going so far top push alignment to blood at that point I think you should keep in mind that half dragons can not be RDDs.

That's not how it works on Amia, and it's been said in the past on the forums before. You don't become a half-dragon.

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Jes
 
PostPosted: Sun, Mar 26 2017, 20:45 PM 

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PS, did you not take another class to emulate your Dragon Rider PRC? Why can you emulate what Amia simply doesn't have, but half-dragons can't? They don't RP taking Disciple levels, just as you don't RP taking whatever class you took instead of Dragon Rider. In this case, Amia simply doesn't have templates for special characters. Emulation has always been a thing, and you are arguing about it for no reason.

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Commie
 
PostPosted: Sun, Mar 26 2017, 20:58 PM 

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What's a dragon rider? Class abilities? Etc?

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PassionateShadow
 
PostPosted: Sun, Mar 26 2017, 21:38 PM 

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Jes wrote:
PS, did you not take another class to emulate your Dragon Rider PRC? Why can you emulate what Amia simply doesn't have, but half-dragons can't? They don't RP taking Disciple levels, just as you don't RP taking whatever class you took instead of Dragon Rider. In this case, Amia simply doesn't have templates for special characters. Emulation has always been a thing, and you are arguing about it for no reason.


Yes I took a class that gives a lot of the same features but I still can't emulate the main idea of the class with out dm help.

in this respect if a Half dragon does take rdd lvl they are then limited on not be able to take other classes. Their rp'd class will be a bit under whelming for what they are meant to be least it's a WM build or something that just get bolstered by RDD lvls.

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Jes
 
PostPosted: Sun, Mar 26 2017, 23:21 PM 

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So you're saying that a half-dragon shouldn't be allowed to emulate the half-dragon template through RDD, and should instead be forced to take different classes because it's too accurate, or because they're too strong? I'm not sure what your argument is and why you are so against RDD half-dragon emulation. If they were taking the class to increase their dragon-ness through rituals, then yes, that would be a problem. But it is just emulation, and they have to put all of their RP on the other two classes.

Why is that bad?

Furthermore, only two of the nine half-dragons in recentish times have chosen to emulate half-dragon abilities through RDD. Was there something in particular about those two out of nine that made you think that this emulation is just wrong? If so, what was wrong with them? If not, why is it an issue to you? All of these half-dragon requests go through a careful approval process, just as any class/etc emulation does. It is not as if it is a vast "issue" popping up all over the place.

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Commie
 
PostPosted: Sun, Mar 26 2017, 23:57 PM 

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I think PS is saying if you get a half-dragon approved you should just be given 8 STR 6 CON 2 INT 4 CHA 100% immunity to element 32 SR like the half-dragon template.

Then take 30 class levels?

That's what I think PS is saying anyway.

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Maverick00053
 
PostPosted: Mon, Mar 27 2017, 0:01 AM 

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Commie wrote:
I think PS is saying if you get a half-dragon approved you should just be given 8 STR 6 CON 2 INT 4 CHA 100% immunity to element 32 SR like the half-dragon template.

Then take 30 class levels?

That's what I think PS is saying anyway.


Yeah that will never happen ever. End of discussion. You are playing on this server with other people and everyone is treated equal and fairly.

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Jes
 
PostPosted: Mon, Mar 27 2017, 0:42 AM 

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...Oh.

Yeah, no. That'd be waaaay too many worms.

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Izii
 
PostPosted: Mon, Mar 27 2017, 6:53 AM 

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ECL for Half-Dragon is a +3 Level Adjustment, which is only one step above a Drow. A Drow gets spell-resistance, which is pretty awesome in comparison as to why they get +2 level adjustment.

I'd actually not mind the introduction of a half-dragon race, though you'd also have people wanting to dive into that instead of Dragon Disciple. Which is indeed.. a can of wyrms.


 
      
TormakSaber
 
PostPosted: Mon, Mar 27 2017, 6:57 AM 

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No.

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