AMIA ARCHIVE • View topic - What do you feel is the most under-utilized class?

Things that could be done to improve Dwarven Defender:

Incredibly exclusive loot, strong and for their class only
- Make the gold value so high that the items can literally not be used via UMD with additional properties
Add damage immunity
Natural armor
- Potentially make the natural armor stack with other sources by applying it via feat like Armor Skin does
Give defender stance scaling benefits
Create multiple defender stances going up all the way into epic levels.
Tie certain dwarven defender only armor or shield type epic items to quests

Budly wrote:

I honestly do not agree and think it removes the legitimate claim of being a Dwarven Defender. Next step is the Arcane Archer being a Sharpshooter or what that other sniper PRC is called. I forgot the name. It takes away from the racial uniqueness. There is RP behind gaining a PRC as I noticed, My Arcane Archer had classes to learn how to do this.

To me the best solution is to add more classes or buff it. I do not want this but that is my opinion and it matters not much, non of ours do I guess. It is all up to the devs with other crew. Have a good day at work mate.

And Robbi, if less people play dwarves...the diversity dies and we have more humans. It kinda kills the whole Dwarven Defender class and lowers the amount of Dwarves.

See I don't think it removes from the "legitimate claim of being a Dwarven Defender" that's all in the RP, I also think Arcane Archer being a Sharpshooter would be good.
It does not take away from the racial uniqueness as that is all in the RP....the RP a Dwarven Defender would do could be leaps and bounds different then a Dreadnaught.

Just as a Sharpshooter would be nothing like a Arcane Archer, you get layers of RP effected by classes, race, location and a bunch of other factors, and again falls into the fact that a player who wishes to player something will do a better job, as ok say you want to play the mechanical play style of a Dwarven Defender but don't want really RP it, you will end up with a flat, dull character that does not do the lore justice.

I think you will find people with Shadow dancers with over 6 levels in the class RP the class more in-depth because they wanted to RP the lore and such behind the class as mechanical wise it does not really offer much for the 14 levels of investment afterwards if you max it. where some just use it as a dump class for HiPS, or other classes to get UMD or what have you.

So I still think its good to open classes up to let people branch into wide ranges of RP to characters feel more unique.

corypx wrote:

Budly wrote:

I honestly do not agree and think it removes the legitimate claim of being a Dwarven Defender. Next step is the Arcane Archer being a Sharpshooter or what that other sniper PRC is called. I forgot the name. It takes away from the racial uniqueness. There is RP behind gaining a PRC as I noticed, My Arcane Archer had classes to learn how to do this.

To me the best solution is to add more classes or buff it. I do not want this but that is my opinion and it matters not much, non of ours do I guess. It is all up to the devs with other crew. Have a good day at work mate.

And Robbi, if less people play dwarves...the diversity dies and we have more humans. It kinda kills the whole Dwarven Defender class and lowers the amount of Dwarves.

See I don't think it removes from the "legitimate claim of being a Dwarven Defender" that's all in the RP, I also think Arcane Archer being a Sharpshooter would be good.
It does not take away from the racial uniqueness as that is all in the RP....the RP a Dwarven Defender would do could be leaps and bounds different then a Dreadnaught.

Just as a Sharpshooter would be nothing like a Arcane Archer, you get layers of RP effected by classes, race, location and a bunch of other factors, and again falls into the fact that a player who wishes to player something will do a better job, as ok say you want to play the mechanical play style of a Dwarven Defender but don't want really RP it, you will end up with a flat, dull character that does not do the lore justice.

I think you will find people with Shadow dancers with over 6 levels in the class RP the class more in-depth because they wanted to RP the lore and such behind the class as mechanical wise it does not really offer much for the 14 levels of investment afterwards if you max it. where some just use it as a dump class for HiPS, or other classes to get UMD or what have you.

So I still think its good to open classes up to let people branch into wide ranges of RP to characters feel more unique.

No class should be a dump class. It should have a meaning for the character and influence the RP no?

I do not think under utilizing will be fixed by removing a class...I mean you remove it. And I still do not think I can play a legit Arcane Archer or Dwarven Defender if these classes are removed to cater more to a human oriented class. The Dreadnaught do look different from the Dwarven Defender as I read, with abilities like breaking in doors and such.

Budly wrote:

No class should be a dump class. It should have a meaning for the character and influence the RP no?

not as long as tumble is a thing.

Commie wrote:

Budly wrote:

No class should be a dump class. It should have a meaning for the character and influence the RP no?

not as long as tumble is a thing.

Taking a PrC for tumble is a bit of the "taking it to far".

Budly wrote:

Commie wrote:

Budly wrote:

No class should be a dump class. It should have a meaning for the character and influence the RP no?

not as long as tumble is a thing.

Taking a PrC for tumble is a bit of the "taking it to far".

na. 6 ac is 6 ac. i've said before 56 is the minimum ac i'd play at. 60+ is what I aim for. You need that 6 from tumble to get there.

I wish Tumble wasn't gated behind class skill. :cry:

But since it is, nobody can be faulted for chasing the numbers, as they are often used in balancing equations as well, so, I don't think "too far" should only really apply to yourself and what kind of RP/standards you want to have for that. :mrgreen:

Commie wrote:

na. 6 ac is 6 ac. i've said before 56 is the minimum ac i'd play at. 60+ is what I aim for. You need that 6 from tumble to get there.

Had this been my RP server, I would warn people for taking classes just for 1 skill and not playing that class. I rather have under utilized classes than overused classes that people pick just for a skill.

RaveN wrote:

I wish Tumble wasn't gated behind class skill. :cry:

But since it is, nobody can be faulted for chasing the numbers, as they are often used in balancing equations as well, so, I don't think "too far" should only really apply to yourself and what kind of RP/standards you want to have for that. :mrgreen:

yup.

Budly wrote:

Commie wrote:

na. 6 ac is 6 ac. i've said before 56 is the minimum ac i'd play at. 60+ is what I aim for. You need that 6 from tumble to get there.

Had this been my RP server, I would warn people for taking classes just for 1 skill and not playing that class. I rather have under utilized classes than overused classes that people pick just for a skill.

then i would just back-flip into conversations so i could keep my 6 ac.

i call it the 'tyranny of tumble.'

Yeah, punish me for thinking RP should stand above stats and numbers.

Either way, we are getting nowhere :mrgreen:

Actually, it was stated multiple times that monsters are actually balanced around the +6 AC you get from tumble. So, missing that, you would need a way around it, in most cases. Exceptions are no/low-AC builds, and extremely hight AC builds. (looking at you, Pale Master)

But yeah, it's even balanced for that, even though I don't like it too much. A big problem is that a single level of Rogue or Bard would hardly influence your character. I'm always a bit cautious with Monk, because they are weird, but one level would, realistically, hardly affect RP. Especially with Rogue. What even is a rogue? Not a thief, since Lawful can be rogues. I mean, the lawfulness goes directly away from the typical rogue. Basically, all we get to hear about them from NWN (can't be bothered to check the PHB, just going by the class description) is that they are versatile. They can fake magic, be dextrous, but the brutish basher with a club, robbing people on the street also is a rogue. But also diplomats sometimes are rogues.
Essentially rogues just are adaptible, so going one level of rogue for tumble, and maybe UMD is completely IC, as it teaches your fighter dodging and using wands and such, thus making him more adaptible.
Bards are similar. The only thing putting them above rogues is that they also have their limited capability for magic, which in turn makes them less adept at dirtier fighting, as demonstrated by their loss of sneak attack.

So, those two classes are perfect for just putting one or two levels into them, and the RP/lore behind the class still doesn't ruin the character. Essentially, that is why skilldumps are so popular, even for people who put RP over building. There is no reason not to, and just adds more to your character without losing them anything. It's kind of sad, in a way. In another, I imagine it diversifies your character. If you really want that wizard who can do nothing but cast spells, he's going to hand around 20-30 AC. But I've seen very few people going for that, with most going for some form of battle-mage. And they RP it as such.

I'm sorry Uce, as I am butchering your holy words slightly (or more than just slightly), but he said something along these lines to me once: "There is no point 'building for RP'. If you are building a character who wants to be able to do more than the sewers, you have to make him strong enough to. That character still can have his flaws."
Something along those lines. If you don't mind losing every single fight you are in (not just PvP, but also PvP, PvDM, etc), you can build a character who has 20 AB, 20 AC, and can't cast spells. Otherwise, why not just build a proper strong build? (and that requires the 'sacrifice' of getting 6 more AC)

// Also, I have no idea why I went about a rant about tumbledumping...

i think rogue has the least class identity of all the classes.

it's always seemed more like a personality type the a 'class.'

I've never seen any kind of 'rogue order' like I've seen with basically every other class, because ic it doesn't make any sense.

Yup. That's why RP-wise, rogue is a perfect candidate for a few levels. Alsmost everyone can go rogue. It is also, next to fighter, in my opinion, one of the 'basest base classes'. You can add it to 95% of all characters, without changing their character in the slightest. Even those built for RP.

And yes, rogue orders make little sense IC. Closest thing might be things like the Club. But even then, it caters only to a specific type, that comes close enough to other classes. (Assassin, Bard, etc)
Rogues are the people you can't put into a box. They can be close to anything. So, even a box with 'rogue' on it can not be full only of rogues, and it can not hold every single rogue.

It's important too, Budly, that while this is an RP server, it is also very much an adventure server, with established mechanics that people enjoy testing new builds/competing/etc with. Multiple avenues of enjoyment out of the game! :wink:

I think Assassin suffers the most, now that I think about it. The problem this class has is twofold. Mechanics and RP restrictions. While it is possible to make a fighter/sin mashup with respectable AB, you are most likely only ever going to take enough to hit the "gates" which are kneecappers and murder. Due to fort scores being the way they are here, it hardly makes sense to invest in a high DC build, as not only would you have medium AB progression in a 54+ AC server, but you are still just fishing. The element of surprise and unreasonable player suspicion. I don't think we need to go into this. Just know that it is bad...really, really bad. Assassin becomes another mechanic and not a class.

Is making tumble a class skill for every class something we could do w/o a hak change?

It might not work at level one / on creation but I'm sure we could hook it in somehow.

I would not be in support of any other implementation of that than a hak change, personally. The amount of "hak-i-ness" becomes far too much for my liking. To the point where the time to make sure it doesn't royally fuck things up becomes far more time consuming than even releasing a new hak with just that change.

There are other factors to keep in mind too; there are balancing decisions/approval/etc to be made before even asking that question about implementation. But as I said before, I wish it was that way..

Yes, adventuring but that is also adventure in an RP element.

And that they devs have to balance around +6 AC from tumble just shows there been to much powergaming and yet again, as it usually is. It frickles over all the people who do not aim to create a warmachine.

EDIT: THe whole ordeal with an preplanned build is that you can, very much, out of event and RP shaping your character....go from Chaotic Good Shadow Dancer planned to a Lawful good Rogue that treasure hunts and builds doors or something. Building for RP? Sure, maybe you shouldn't but to forcefully continue your build and ignore RP that can change your path is also very much wrong.

Well, if you don't want a war machine, then don't make one, but don't expect it to be a war machine then. Either your character is good at fighting, or he isn't. If you want one without tumble, make one without it. But don't expect it to be able to reach good AC.

This might really come across the wrong way. I know enpugh people that come here, and enjoy building. If we would go away from that standpoint, we'd lose a lot of people. And, given the other servers I know of, I'm not sure if we were to change it, so you HAVE to have a really good explanation for a build, if we would get enough people to really warrant that change.
In general, I'd say Amia found its niche. You might be unhappy, but dozens of people would be unhappy if this niche was empty.

Also, I hate policing RP on an online setting. In PnP with my friends, yeah, it's fine. But here? In most cases my goblin would not have actrd like he did yesterday with Rania and company. Based on that single occasion, I'd say he's CN, probably. But because of other occasions, he's evil. Also, I personally don't believe in alignment changes. How do you really want to change what you learned growing up? I'd say it takes years to do that. Years to change yout character to that extreme. So, in my opinion, that is moot, as 99% of the server will be level 30 in said years.

Alignment do get changed by DMs.

Also, this is my opinion, I think when powerbuilding effects how the devs build thigns, it ruins for those who are not wanting to put more effort into builds than RP a character.

Still, we are rolling off the cliffside here on this off rail train!

Speaking of classes, how many Assassins and Purple Dragon Knights is around? The later one I think I never heard anyone aim for. Anywhere in NWN!

Powerbuilding always effects how developers build things. :idea:

Every game there is always ways to get ahead people look for. As a developer, you are aware of them, and try to manage them in a way to not be too OP for others. It's just how games/sports/etc work.

Budly wrote:

Speaking of classes, how many Assassins and Purple Dragon Knights is around? The later one I think I never heard anyone aim for. Anywhere in NWN!

Amia has plenty of Assassins and Knight Commanders (the thing Amia made Purple Dragon Knights into).

Both of the above listed classes are amazing on amia and well used by the player base.

bobofwestoregonusa wrote:

Both of the above listed classes are amazing on amia and well used by the player base.

Right, Knight Commander is the Purple Dragon Knights. Assassins I usually do not see, Shadow Dancers on the other hand. Hard to miss.

Budly wrote:

Assassins I usually do not see

From a certain amount of metagaming and OOC chat, I know of two Assassins at the last tournament. But yeah, as Commie is hintong at a bit. Assassins are happy from not being known as Assassins. (I quit Mezwar after he was outed as evil, because there is, in my opinion, very little point in playing someone everyone knows as evil, unless you have a way to ignore that fact, like a faction)

Of course, this info is something that you are not allowed to use IC.

(Statement not only made to Budly, but everyone reading this. Let evil people have theor fun playing evil. Don't metagame based on those things, please)

robbi320 wrote:

From a certain amount of metagaming and OOC chat, I know of two Assassins at the last tournament. But yeah, as Commie is hintong at a bit. Assassins are happy from not being known as Assassins. (I quit Mezwar after he was outed as evil, because there is, in my opinion, very little point in playing someone everyone knows as evil, unless you have a way to ignore that fact, like a faction)

Of course, this info is something that you are not allowed to use IC.

(Statement not only made to Budly, but everyone reading this. Let evil people have theor fun playing evil. Don't metagame based on those things, please)

Morely from my side, I meant that a Shadow Dancer is obvious to see when you notice their abilities being used.

Ah. Yeah. Though, if you know what to look for, I usually find Assassins easier to spot. HiPS is the thing that is used most, and I don't always notice that, because I'm an idiot. I mean, the summon is terrible, the daze is used seldomly, and the defense thing... Honestly, I've never seen anyone use that.

Of course, my experience is more in the crowd playing in Euro times, and forums, so I have a tendency to see powerful builds, and few RP builds. This means, I have only seen one SD go over level 6. And at level 6, the daze isn't strong, the defense isn't strong, and the shade is only powerful in one tiny niche (mega bisons, and only as long as you tank them)

I also know some people who really like KC. And it is a pretty decent class. Bard/KC, Warlock/KC, Some sorcerors, Pally, generally everything that can use Cha can use KC pretty well. And I'd actually say almost anything, apart from Monk, because investing some points into cha isn't too difficult for most builds. So at 8 cha, you still can get the max for KC. 3 regen, 10% damage reduction versus physical, immunites against quite a lot of things... It's a nice class, it just isn't usually built into anything at its corr, because it is a class that synergises if you can make it, otherwise it mostly gives you some stuff you won't need.
Because of this, you won't usually hear: I'm a KC. But rather: I'm a [...] with KC.

... and KC is a 5 level class only. They will always be xx and KC, never wholly KC, but that's true of any prc to some extent.

I read that as The Great Chicken Will Destroy You! at first.

Budly wrote:

I read that as The Great Chicken Will Destroy You! at first.

I haven't actually seen Pigeon in a while, so you are safe.

robbi320 wrote:

Budly wrote:

I read that as The Great Chicken Will Destroy You! at first.

I haven't actually seen Pigeon in a while, so you are safe.

Oh my, The Great Chicken Will Destroy You! is coded to be changed I see...heh. K F C.

And we're going hella off topic.

Well, yes. K(F)C is a PrC that is used by enough people, it just usually isn't too much into their identity, so you don't hear about it too much. I've also seen it on many different builds. (Even a Shifter, once)

robbi320 wrote:

(Even a Shifter, once)

Man, for a while there I didn't see a Shifter without KC. It was one of the main power combos I'd see people rolling around with.

This comes up every few years and i always get a kick out of Looking Back.

Always felt that the DwD could be fixed easily enough by just changing their stance to give bonus akin to the Barb Rage, aka fort/hp/damage/ab or whatever, instead of Con. Would not really make it great, but a step. Letting it move at turtle speeds while getting the above stance boon would be even better. Or as Chris i think suggested a life time ago, having a few different stances. Sometimes the best Defense is not holding your ground, but advancing. I think the idea was for a Stance that worked on Defense focus, with another that was more offensive focused.

Kinda like how Barbarian has a;

• Defensive Rage

and an;

• Offensive Rage

Xenos wrote:

This comes up every few years and i always get a kick out of Looking Back.

Always felt that the DwD could be fixed easily enough by just changing their stance to give bonus akin to the Barb Rage, aka fort/hp/damage/ab or whatever, instead of Con. Would not really make it great, but a step. Letting it move at turtle speeds while getting the above stance boon would be even better. Or as Chris i think suggested a life time ago, having a few different stances. Sometimes the best Defense is not holding your ground, but advancing. I think the idea was for a Stance that worked on Defense focus, with another that was more offensive focused.

Kinda like how Barbarian has a;

• Defensive Rage

and an;

• Offensive Rage

Reading the flavour text of them (on the wikipedia atleast) They do dash out of their shield lines and bash their foe over the head. So they should be a bit offensive too. Not just defense. Think you got the right idea there.

As someone who plays a DwD I would hate to see it become available to all races for reasons already stated. As for how to improve the class I feel I might have some useful insight considering I actually played a DwD for a long time. So, in no particular order...

Constitution +1 at level 10 or whatever - because it's really annoying to leave it at 21 which you need for EDR and you don't have spare feats to get Great Constitution.

Fear immunity - Like the one that pally gets from level 1. Maybe it would only kick in when in stance. I think the lack of this feat is what bugs me the most with DwD. It's just silly to me that they don't have this by default. It would even be fine if you needed 14 or 18 levels of DwD for this.

Defensive stance - Just make it unlimited uses per day and leave the rest as is. As it is, Defensive Stance is only used on bosses and in PvP if the other person is kind enough to let you use it. For PvE, Expertise does the same job, even better. You don't need the extra 5 AB for PvE and you get 1 more AC compared to Defensive Stance, and its unlimited uses per day and you can move with it. I would also remove the +4 to Constitution when in stance because it's very annoying to die because a monster pulled back and you lost the extra HP.

That's the main three things I would change with DwD. I'd also like to tell all the people who think that DwD sucks that they are wrong.

Xenos's idea seems interesting. Auras that, at higher levels, perhaps would allow you to move at a "Slow" pace or less even. While that would spice it up, I fancy the idea that a single high level skill still would exist that prohibits movement, but make you nigh invincible to physical attacks for x amount of time (insane DR for instance).

Speaking of DwD and someone mentioning shifter.. I recall making a DwD 14/Druid 5/Shifter 11 build with Azer as the focus. Your melee and spell-like abilities would be set in stone based on the shape (around 44-48 AB with epic rage?), and you get DwD bonuses to use while shifted to boost yourself further. Not sure if you could use Fire Bolt when stanced, since I never got that far. You might want a ring of cold immunity to be without a glaring weakness however.
Pour booze over yourself and jump into a firepit yelling "FLAME ON".

Couldn't help sharing it..

What do you feel is the most under-utilized class?

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