AMIA ARCHIVE • View topic - What do you feel is the most under-utilized class?

I feel it's the Dwarven Defender. It gets a useless class ability (defensive stance, countered by moving, counts against your stat cap) and really only works with specific kinds of builds. Not only that, the DR isn't that much when your AC isn't all that high comparatively (class can't get AC levels any higher then any other plate class) and even at 20+ dr, when you're facing a 180 damage hammer crit, it's not really doing much for you.

You can't be a bard and a DwD, cutting off some cool build opportunities as Bard is a great source of tumble and UMD, so you just can't do cool stuff like 6bard/14dwd/10pm.

And the RP is sort of lame. You don't take damage, sure, but lots of people take epic damage reduction, really diminishing the individuality of your classes main feature.

That said the class is still pretty good, if you can swing it, and im pretty convinced there is some sleeper build out there using DwD.

I think the RP for Dwarven Defender is great, I'm just not sure how well it translates to playing one. Racial-restricted classes are difficult to get right, even more than alignment-restricted ones. We see it with Arcane Archer. In the mechanical story of the game, an elf(AA) will always flat-out be a better archer than any other race. There's nothing any non-AA can do to compete with the stuff they get. With DwD, you either have to make it so good where a Dwarf with it will just become the best tank in the game, or there will always be other non-racial options that will be better. At least, that's the issue I see on the face of it. I do believe there would be a way to skirt around the issue by making them very specialized in how they operate and giving them a gimmick that doesn't overshadow everything else.

I can't really think of an under-utilized class. Every class at this point has its place in some build or another. There are some that don't pay dividends as well as others as you progress, but that's no secret. Dipping a melee class is always a good choice, dipping a 3/4's AB Tumble or UMD class is always a good choice, dipping a caster class is pretty dumb in all cases but those it is required(AA, PM and Dragon Disciple). By that same token, most of the classes that are good for dipping aren't as great for going full-hog in.

So I guess I'd agree that DwD needs some help, but it's the only prestige class we haven't actively tinkered with. A few changes and I see it being as usable as any other class we have in the right build.

DwD for sure

SD beyond 6

Fighter beyond 8

Rogue beyond 13

PM beyond "dumb crit immunity"

I think that's your main list of 'underutilized' classes. Divine Champ would make the list if the class wasn't essentially Fighter+ and opened up options for a lot of divine builds.

DwD: Because most people don't want to play a dwarf.
As stated above, all the classes taken to cream one or two specific feats or skills.

RDD: Lvl 30 cap hinders viable caster combinations with a class that can use sorcerer as a base. Not saying it should be fixed, however the irony of awakening the blood of some of the most magically powerful creatures in existence, only to become a STRONK MERDER MUSHEEN is not lost on me. Hat's off to those in the past defied the meta and made casters anyway.

If dim and distant memory serves, one of the proposed tweaks to DevCrit was to have it stay as 'Fort save or die' but only perform that script when 100 damage had been taken by the target. That would have been a pretty darn significant buff to the DwD as a PvP class.

I fear you might be underestimating DR as a build strategy, and if not then I guess you don't rate PvBoss as a significant thing? Very heavy DR is exceptionally good in PvMob and hilariously broken in PvBoss; you can chug an Elemental Shield potion, go afk, then come back to certain victory.

It's shit in PvP, for the Improved (and/or Ki) Criticals reason you mentioned. I don't think I've ever run a character with such a gulf between PvE godhood and PvP uselessness as my Ftr7/WM5/DwD18.

Rogue is under-utilized. It's used as a skill dump, or for evasion/umd, but the skills of the class aren't used much on the server.

Ranger is under-utilized. It's used for the epic focus or AA class, but NWN borked them by not letting you go archer or dual wield, and the spell list is pathetic compared to the PHB.

Mind you I am not a PvP:er or good builder, but do classes really need to be balanced? The dangers of heading into that mess is that it might become to focused on class balance and it might make classes awfully boring when they just need to be perfect and neat towards each others, like bow takes sword, shield and spear combo takes bow or something along those lines. Turning it into Dota 2 or World of Warcraft.

What I noticed from my time in Dota 2, is that the more serious and focused people get on optimized gameplay and balancing things, the less fun it becomes, the less soul it has. When everything is a spread sheet of tiers of characters and rebalancing and counters and such talk takes the place of the fun or in this term, story and plot development.

I am curious what your opinion is and what thoughts you have behind classes being bad and needing rebalancing.

The balance issue I think is in part to help mitigate people exploiting abilities to make themselves effectively unbeatable, and to encourage more diversity instead of every str build is a dev crit build sort of things that used to be a thing.

Also yeah, I think DwD is way underused and I think a big part of that is the fact you are locked into playing a certain race. While I think dwarves are awesome, I'd be more inclined to play the class, even as is, if I could be some other race. I always thought DwD would have made more sense as like...Legendary Dreadnought or something along those lines so that it was available to all races.

DolphinRacer wrote:

The balance issue I think is in part to help mitigate people exploiting abilities to make themselves effectively unbeatable, and to encourage more diversity instead of every str build is a dev crit build sort of things that used to be a thing.

Also yeah, I think DwD is way underused and I think a big part of that is the fact you are locked into playing a certain race. While I think dwarves are awesome, I'd be more inclined to play the class, even as is, if I could be some other race. I always thought DwD would have made more sense as like...Legendary Dreadnought or something along those lines so that it was available to all races.

It is a classic dwarven class although. The stoic defender, high fortitude and never breaking armour. Just like there is elven archers and halfling slingers.

Yeah but there is also a class (though it might not be 3.5) called Legendary Dreadnought which is a somewhat similar concept but does not require you to be a dwarf to play. It was actually something that was going to be implemented on another server I played on before the server wound up shutting down and the stuff looked cool and fun and basically allowed you to fill the niche of a DwD without being a dwarf, which makes the role more accessible to more people who may not wish to play a dwarf but want to be the stalwart wall against which foes break.

Not saying that's the only way to fix this or make the class more appealing by any means. Balancing the defensive stance so it works more like barbarian rage for instance (say gives a bonus based on levels for AC, HP, and saves) would also I think do a lot to make the class more appealing. It is just that personally I've never liked the racial-restricted classes much on NwN because like...AA is cool and DwD is cool but you are locked into a particular race which can limit the type of RP you want to do to some extent.

I can definitely tell you if they made DwD on this server into Legendary Dreadnought (or just a generic defender class much the way Champion of Torm is now Divine Champion) and kept it identical to DwD other than the dwarf restriction I'd definitely make one or possibly reroll a character into it.

DolphinRacer wrote:

Yeah but there is also a class (though it might not be 3.5) called Legendary Dreadnought which is a somewhat similar concept but does not require you to be a dwarf to play. It was actually something that was going to be implemented on another server I played on before the server wound up shutting down and the stuff looked cool and fun and basically allowed you to fill the niche of a DwD without being a dwarf, which makes the role more accessible to more people who may not wish to play a dwarf but want to be the stalwart wall against which foes break.

Not saying that's the only way to fix this or make the class more appealing by any means. Balancing the defensive stance so it works more like barbarian rage for instance (say gives a bonus based on levels for AC, HP, and saves) would also I think do a lot to make the class more appealing. It is just that personally I've never liked the racial-restricted classes much on NwN because like...AA is cool and DwD is cool but you are locked into a particular race which can limit the type of RP you want to do to some extent.

I can definitely tell you if they made DwD on this server into Legendary Dreadnought (or just a generic defender class much the way Champion of Torm is now Divine Champion) and kept it identical to DwD other than the dwarf restriction I'd definitely make one or possibly reroll a character into it.

Yeah I get that, but it is still one of those things that might be appealing to those who like said races, remove them and it be removing bit of that races cultural thing on the server. Their niche. If everyone is a super archer, it kinda breaks the whole deal with elven eyes and archery being some of the best when every single dirty, shortlived human do the same :lol:

Budly wrote:

DolphinRacer wrote:

Yeah but there is also a class (though it might not be 3.5) called Legendary Dreadnought which is a somewhat similar concept but does not require you to be a dwarf to play. It was actually something that was going to be implemented on another server I played on before the server wound up shutting down and the stuff looked cool and fun and basically allowed you to fill the niche of a DwD without being a dwarf, which makes the role more accessible to more people who may not wish to play a dwarf but want to be the stalwart wall against which foes break.

Not saying that's the only way to fix this or make the class more appealing by any means. Balancing the defensive stance so it works more like barbarian rage for instance (say gives a bonus based on levels for AC, HP, and saves) would also I think do a lot to make the class more appealing. It is just that personally I've never liked the racial-restricted classes much on NwN because like...AA is cool and DwD is cool but you are locked into a particular race which can limit the type of RP you want to do to some extent.

I can definitely tell you if they made DwD on this server into Legendary Dreadnought (or just a generic defender class much the way Champion of Torm is now Divine Champion) and kept it identical to DwD other than the dwarf restriction I'd definitely make one or possibly reroll a character into it.

Yeah I get that, but it is still one of those things that might be appealing to those who like said races, remove them and it be removing bit of that races cultural thing on the server. Their niche. If everyone is a super archer, it kinda breaks the whole deal with elven eyes and archery being some of the best when every single dirty, shortlived human do the same :lol:

Yeah so instead you have people not using the class at all because they don't want to be forced into playing a race connected to the play style they want.

Also elves get stuff already to effect eyes/archery its the sub race stuff standard to NWN.

Elven ability adjustments: +2 Dex, -2 Con
Sleeplessness: Immune to spells and effects of the 'Sleep' subtype.
Hardiness vs. Enchantments: +2 racial bonus on saving throws against mind-affecting spells.
Bonus Proficiencies (Longsword, Rapier, Shortbow, Longbow)
Skill Affinity (Listen): +2 racial bonus to listen checks.
Skill Affinity (Search): +2 racial bonus to Search checks.
Skill Affinity (Spot): +2 racial bonus to Spot checks.
Keen Senses: Elves make active Search checks automatically and with no movement penalties.
Low-light Vision: Allows them to see better than normal in the dark.

Also humans even in sort lives have done a lot more OP stuff look at all of Netheril, look at all the high powered human mages.

Like I had thought of attempting to do Legendary Dreadnought as it fits Cory to a T......

Quote:

The legendary dreadnought is the ultimate foot soldier, an absolute force of destruction, a total warrior who excels at sheer combat prowess. While some rely on cunning and reflexes in a fight, and others uphold a code of honor or engage in combat from horseback, the legendary dreadnought simply wades into battle, completely bent on relentless, steady destruction. When the tide of combat flows against him, he stands like a rock. It is the legendary dreadnought who has the might to breach the seemingly unbreachable gates.

Legendary dreadnoughts may function as brute force in an adventuring group, but small groups of them make up the most devastating combat units in an army.

Kudark wrote:

Rogue is under-utilized. It's used as a skill dump, or for evasion/umd, but the skills of the class aren't used much on the server.

Ranger is under-utilized. It's used for the epic focus or AA class, but NWN borked them by not letting you go archer or dual wield, and the spell list is pathetic compared to the PHB.

Ranger is not under utilized, it gets the best weapon buff in the game, cats grace, good hiding and spotting spells, the pet, full BAB, favored Fort, martial prof and a good skillset. it's almost never used for AA.

Great class.

I want to say Paladin as I've seen so few of them, even fewer who fit that Holy defender of the weak and banisher of evil! Perhaps its just me but I rarely see them. Clerics are devout and faithful but Paladin are meant to go beyond that are they not?

corypx wrote:

Budly wrote:

DolphinRacer wrote:

Yeah but there is also a class (though it might not be 3.5) called Legendary Dreadnought which is a somewhat similar concept but does not require you to be a dwarf to play. It was actually something that was going to be implemented on another server I played on before the server wound up shutting down and the stuff looked cool and fun and basically allowed you to fill the niche of a DwD without being a dwarf, which makes the role more accessible to more people who may not wish to play a dwarf but want to be the stalwart wall against which foes break.

Not saying that's the only way to fix this or make the class more appealing by any means. Balancing the defensive stance so it works more like barbarian rage for instance (say gives a bonus based on levels for AC, HP, and saves) would also I think do a lot to make the class more appealing. It is just that personally I've never liked the racial-restricted classes much on NwN because like...AA is cool and DwD is cool but you are locked into a particular race which can limit the type of RP you want to do to some extent.

I can definitely tell you if they made DwD on this server into Legendary Dreadnought (or just a generic defender class much the way Champion of Torm is now Divine Champion) and kept it identical to DwD other than the dwarf restriction I'd definitely make one or possibly reroll a character into it.

Yeah I get that, but it is still one of those things that might be appealing to those who like said races, remove them and it be removing bit of that races cultural thing on the server. Their niche. If everyone is a super archer, it kinda breaks the whole deal with elven eyes and archery being some of the best when every single dirty, shortlived human do the same :lol:

Yeah so instead you have people not using the class at all because they don't want to be forced into playing a race connected to the play style they want.

Also elves get stuff already to effect eyes/archery its the sub race stuff standard to NWN.

Elven ability adjustments: +2 Dex, -2 Con
Sleeplessness: Immune to spells and effects of the 'Sleep' subtype.
Hardiness vs. Enchantments: +2 racial bonus on saving throws against mind-affecting spells.
Bonus Proficiencies (Longsword, Rapier, Shortbow, Longbow)
Skill Affinity (Listen): +2 racial bonus to listen checks.
Skill Affinity (Search): +2 racial bonus to Search checks.
Skill Affinity (Spot): +2 racial bonus to Spot checks.
Keen Senses: Elves make active Search checks automatically and with no movement penalties.
Low-light Vision: Allows them to see better than normal in the dark.

Also humans even in sort lives have done a lot more OP stuff look at all of Netheril, look at all the high powered human mages.

Like I had thought of attempting to do Legendary Dreadnought as it fits Cory to a T......

Quote:

The legendary dreadnought is the ultimate foot soldier, an absolute force of destruction, a total warrior who excels at sheer combat prowess. While some rely on cunning and reflexes in a fight, and others uphold a code of honor or engage in combat from horseback, the legendary dreadnought simply wades into battle, completely bent on relentless, steady destruction. When the tide of combat flows against him, he stands like a rock. It is the legendary dreadnought who has the might to breach the seemingly unbreachable gates.

Legendary dreadnoughts may function as brute force in an adventuring group, but small groups of them make up the most devastating combat units in an army.

These are flavour classes. If people do not want to play a Dwarven Defender? Well that is up to them. And I would not say that is enough to represent the keen archery of the elves. The only part that mechanically helps them is +2 dex and the profiency. The later 1 level in fighter gives you and the first, Im pretty sure there is a human subrace for that + 2 dex.

I bet there is people who want to play a Blackguard but do not want to be evil, it do not warrant changing it to be all alignments. I get the arguement but I see it from two ways and adding a new class, so similar to the Dwarven Defender soudns tedious and makes Dwarven Defender useless. I would feel a bit bitter if I made a dwarf and wanted to play the DD and suddenly a new class surpasses it. Same with my Elf Ranger aiming at AA. I will feel tricked on the racial flavour. But that is just how I think about it at the end there.

TormakSaber wrote:

Kudark wrote:

Rogue is under-utilized. It's used as a skill dump, or for evasion/umd, but the skills of the class aren't used much on the server.

Ranger is under-utilized. It's used for the epic focus or AA class, but NWN borked them by not letting you go archer or dual wield, and the spell list is pathetic compared to the PHB.

Ranger is not under utilized, it gets the best weapon buff in the game, cats grace, good hiding and spotting spells, the pet, full BAB, favored Fort, martial prof and a good skillset. it's almost never used for AA.

Great class.

But isn't there always someone better at everything they do? The rogue is a better stealth class, the fighter is a better melee and ranged fighter, the druid got better pets, the cleric got better buffs. Got lot of skills in it's set but so do the rogue and the points you need to spend on it all will be so damn many and you probably won't sit on a high int (14+) if you want to be decent in combat.

This is how the ranger feels to me. It can do a lot but also lack luster in all positions. Master of non. But hey, I have one in my Elf and Budly.

TormakSaber wrote:

Kudark wrote:

Rogue is under-utilized. It's used as a skill dump, or for evasion/umd, but the skills of the class aren't used much on the server.

Ranger is under-utilized. It's used for the epic focus or AA class, but NWN borked them by not letting you go archer or dual wield, and the spell list is pathetic compared to the PHB.

Ranger is not under utilized, it gets the best weapon buff in the game, cats grace, good hiding and spotting spells, the pet, full BAB, favored Fort, martial prof and a good skillset. it's almost never used for AA.

Great class.

Underutilized =/= Underpowered

Last edited by Strom on Mon, Apr 10 2017, 12:45 PM, edited 1 time in total.

Elf Boots wrote:

Clerics are devout and faithful but Paladin are meant to go beyond that are they not?

Paladins aren't more faithful than clerics I think, but they're a specialist militant arm of the church, they're the guy who leads the crusade, who has the zeal, resolve and faith to keep his ideals but still slay his foes with terrible cold fury. They're suposed to be that guy who is deemed worthy of being a champion; the woman who is manifest of a gods terrible will. If you want a historical example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joan_of_Arc

Clerics get better spells, but they're the voices of their gods made flesh. Paladins are the sword/shield, if that makes sense. Equally faithful, but different?

Regardless, I think the reason is Paladin is the only class in the game you actively get punished for 'doing it wrong', clerics also; but they have a bit more wiggle room as they lack a defined code to break. Paladins are stuck with choices like, 'if I RP my character's rage at loosing his wife properly, I'll loose most of my class abilities and have to jump through hoops to get them back' which is cool if you want to play that. I just think it's the reason many paladins burn out or are ineffectual, because the player lives in fear of 'doing it wrong' and getting slapped with the shame mallet. :lol:

Absolutely Dwarven Defender because there simply isn't anything to make the class worth taking. Dwarven Defender is incredibly cool by concept.

I've seen plenty of just about every other prestige class.

Played a Blackguard, though they're kinda rare.
Assassins have always been really capable
Shadowdancers are a dime a dozen
One way or another I somehow almost always know a 19 PM
Shifters used to be a dime a dozen
Knight Commander is an excellent meme
Master Scout is both conceptually and mechanically very fun
I've watched arcane archers literally dominate
Dragon disciples have always been well utilized and got an excellent re-invigoration recently
I've actually seen a suprising lack of divine champions for how good the class is
I've seen two dwarven defenders that I know of on amia since 2012

Commie wrote:

And the RP is sort of lame. You don't take damage, sure, but lots of people take epic damage reduction, really diminishing the individuality of your classes main feature.

That said the class is still pretty good, if you can swing it, and im pretty convinced there is some sleeper build out there using DwD.

I've always kind of viewed it the opposite. The Dwarven Defender is pretty cool but mechanically just useless past getting defensive awareness.

Budly wrote:

I bet there is people who want to play a Blackguard but do not want to be evil, it do not warrant changing it to be all alignments. I get the arguement but I see it from two ways and adding a new class, so similar to the Dwarven Defender soudns tedious and makes Dwarven Defender useless. I would feel a bit bitter if I made a dwarf and wanted to play the DD and suddenly a new class surpasses it. Same with my Elf Ranger aiming at AA. I will feel tricked on the racial flavour. But that is just how I think about it at the end there.

Dwarven defender is already pretty useless, as pointed out by multiple people on this thread as to why its not used. Making it available to all races as just a general defender class or as Legendary Dreadnought would increase potential appeal of the class as would fixing certain things. Either option is a possibility to increase interest in the use of the class, so is doing both. If you think that DwD should be dwarves only, then fix the class to make it more competitive, otherwise just make it more available and it might increase its use. Also I never said something about making a class better than Dwarven Defender available to non dwarves, I'm literally suggesting replacing Dwarven Defender with a class that keeps all or most of the same benefits and is called something else. That way you can still make dwarves that identify as Dwarven Defenders but other people can make any one of a variety of similar concepts that exist within other cultures/races.

AA is not useless and fits with a niche that makes sense. While I don't like the limitations of being elf only I'm also not trying to make an argument that AA should be made available to everyone because to me it makes sense that a technique that is heavy in magic and archery and was created by elves would be an elven thing. Dwarven defenders are stalwart warriors. While on average dwarves tend to be stouter than say men, there is little to stop a sturdy man from training himself in the same techniques which from what I understand are mundane in nature and have no magic or anything specifically about them that locks them into being a dwarf.

As for the alignment thing, I can't speak for blackguard but there are DnD or at least DnD-based world settings that remove or allow more flexibility for alignment for some of the classes (I think there are ones that allow for neutral and chaotic paladins, and I think even evil paladins) but while I find the concept of such neat, I don't see how it could be implemented without huge effort for what at this point would be little gain. Frankly the server has much bigger problems to surmount than a couple of classes being underutilized.

DolphinRacer wrote:

Budly wrote:

I bet there is people who want to play a Blackguard but do not want to be evil, it do not warrant changing it to be all alignments. I get the arguement but I see it from two ways and adding a new class, so similar to the Dwarven Defender soudns tedious and makes Dwarven Defender useless. I would feel a bit bitter if I made a dwarf and wanted to play the DD and suddenly a new class surpasses it. Same with my Elf Ranger aiming at AA. I will feel tricked on the racial flavour. But that is just how I think about it at the end there.

Dwarven defender is already pretty useless, as pointed out by multiple people on this thread as to why its not used. Making it available to all races as just a general defender class or as Legendary Dreadnought would increase potential appeal of the class as would fixing certain things. Either option is a possibility to increase interest in the use of the class, so is doing both. If you think that DwD should be dwarves only, then fix the class to make it more competitive, otherwise just make it more available and it might increase its use. Also I never said something about making a class better than Dwarven Defender available to non dwarves, I'm literally suggesting replacing Dwarven Defender with a class that keeps all or most of the same benefits and is called something else. That way you can still make dwarves that identify as Dwarven Defenders but other people can make any one of a variety of similar concepts that exist within other cultures/races.

AA is not useless and fits with a niche that makes sense. While I don't like the limitations of being elf only I'm also not trying to make an argument that AA should be made available to everyone because to me it makes sense that a technique that is heavy in magic and archery and was created by elves would be an elven thing. Dwarven defenders are stalwart warriors. While on average dwarves tend to be stouter than say men, there is little to stop a sturdy man from training himself in the same techniques which from what I understand are mundane in nature and have no magic or anything specifically about them that locks them into being a dwarf.

As for the alignment thing, I can't speak for blackguard but there are DnD or at least DnD-based world settings that remove or allow more flexibility for alignment for some of the classes (I think there are ones that allow for neutral and chaotic paladins, and I think even evil paladins) but while I find the concept of such neat, I don't see how it could be implemented without huge effort for what at this point would be little gain. Frankly the server has much bigger problems to surmount than a couple of classes being underutilized.

I see the point. I still think buffing it and keeping it as Dwarven Defender will make it more appealing to play a dwarven fighter. In all honesty. Can someone explain why it is "bad". Next step would be to make the AA for all to and suddenly the Dwarf and Elves loses to humans being able to do everything again. Either way, other issues need to be fixed as you mentioned.

Personally, I want to try the class for the DR. I want to play something that is somewhat tanky, but I don't like dwarves. I mean, ok. I have a general fetish for humans. The closest to not being human was a human fire genasi. I tried an Elf, but didn't like it. I don't like the steamlined-ness of 'dwarves are stubborn'. I want to play my character the way I want to. And especially when it isn't just Lawful only, but also a defender of dwarven values, I feel you have no wiggle room to make the character interesting...
I always wanted to try DwD/KC, for taking 26 less damage off all physical attacks, plus 10% less physical damage. Then, every hit they take deals damage to the attacker. I would like to play that, just for the fun of the concept. Sadly, that means dwarf. Duergar, with their -4 Cha are terrible for that. And Shield and Gold dwarf, I just find bland Pretty sure I'm not the only one thinking that.
Humans, well you can have everything you like: Powerful Wizard, those exist; Evil, (unlike most other races, that have an extreme tendency to either good or evil) very typical. DMs hate when you against those suggestions, especially in the direction of evil. If humans lost their bonus feat at level one, I'd still play them, just because they are very flexible at anything. There are few builds a human can not do, whereas many other races have problems with things. So, with a human, there are few ways people will say: 'No, you're playing your character wrong'. (Of course, smart Robbi320 managed to get into some of those ways)

And even then, I find Elves more interesting than Dwarves.

Also, why would you feel bitter? Because you are thinking the same thing and forced yourself through that deal? Because otherwise, you still have the dwarves rupation for being incredibly sturdy. People (and especially dwarves) would still say dwarves were the best DwDs, even though that is not mechanically represented. Just like a Tiefling is the best dextrous Assassin. Except he isn't, because 18 Assassin blocks him out of Epic Dodge. RIP. I'll still respect you (IC and OOC) for trying it, and especially for succeeding at it. The flavor still is there. Just not the forcing of having to be restricted in the way you play your character. I'd even say it means you would play a dwarf because you want to play a dwarf, and not because you want to play a certain class.
Elves are similar. There, I'd say the winning grace is that Half-Elves can do it. Does that reduce the flavor of AAs? Do people not go around and say: 'Damn, these Half-Elves are some of the best archers around'? I still have only heard of AA-ness being called 'Elven'.

robbi320 wrote:

Personally, I want to try the class for the DR. I want to play something that is somewhat tanky, but I don't like dwarves. I mean, ok. I have a general fetish for humans. The closest to not being human was a human fire genasi. I tried an Elf, but didn't like it. I don't like the steamlined-ness of 'dwarves are stubborn'. I want to play my character the way I want to. And especially when it isn't just Lawful only, but also a defender of dwarven values, I feel you have no wiggle room to make the character interesting...
I always wanted to try DwD/KC, for taking 26 less damage off all physical attacks, plus 10% less physical damage. Then, every hit they take deals damage to the attacker. I would like to play that, just for the fun of the concept. Sadly, that means dwarf. Duergar, with their -4 Cha are terrible for that. And Shield and Gold dwarf, I just find bland Pretty sure I'm not the only one thinking that.
Humans, well you can have everything you like: Powerful Wizard, those exist; Evil, (unlike most other races, that have an extreme tendency to either good or evil) very typical. DMs hate when you against those suggestions, especially in the direction of evil. If humans lost their bonus feat at level one, I'd still play them, just because they are very flexible at anything. There are few builds a human can not do, whereas many other races have problems with things. So, with a human, there are few ways people will say: 'No, you're playing your character wrong'. (Of course, smart Robbi320 managed to get into some of those ways)

And even then, I find Elves more interesting than Dwarves.

Also, why would you feel bitter? Because you are thinking the same thing and forced yourself through that deal? Because otherwise, you still have the dwarves rupation for being incredibly sturdy. People (and especially dwarves) would still say dwarves were the best DwDs, even though that is not mechanically represented. Just like a Tiefling is the best dextrous Assassin. Except he isn't, because 18 Assassin blocks him out of Epic Dodge. RIP. I'll still respect you (IC and OOC) for trying it, and especially for succeeding at it. The flavor still is there. Just not the forcing of having to be restricted in the way you play your character. I'd even say it means you would play a dwarf because you want to play a dwarf, and not because you want to play a certain class.
Elves are similar. There, I'd say the winning grace is that Half-Elves can do it. Does that reduce the flavor of AAs? Do people not go around and say: 'Damn, these Half-Elves are some of the best archers around'? I still have only heard of AA-ness being called 'Elven'.

If everyone can do it, it waters out the effectiveness of those classes. Dwarven Defender and Arcane Archer is pretty much a title, it is like playing in Warcraft and suddenly is the Farstrider Rangers of Quel'thelas for every race suddenly, it makes it "less" and takes away from that race.

This Dreadnaught...I guess it can be added but to remove the Dwarven Defender or not buff the Dwarven Defender waters it out even more.

Budly wrote:

DolphinRacer wrote:

Budly wrote:

I bet there is people who want to play a Blackguard but do not want to be evil, it do not warrant changing it to be all alignments. I get the arguement but I see it from two ways and adding a new class, so similar to the Dwarven Defender soudns tedious and makes Dwarven Defender useless. I would feel a bit bitter if I made a dwarf and wanted to play the DD and suddenly a new class surpasses it. Same with my Elf Ranger aiming at AA. I will feel tricked on the racial flavour. But that is just how I think about it at the end there.

Dwarven defender is already pretty useless, as pointed out by multiple people on this thread as to why its not used. Making it available to all races as just a general defender class or as Legendary Dreadnought would increase potential appeal of the class as would fixing certain things. Either option is a possibility to increase interest in the use of the class, so is doing both. If you think that DwD should be dwarves only, then fix the class to make it more competitive, otherwise just make it more available and it might increase its use. Also I never said something about making a class better than Dwarven Defender available to non dwarves, I'm literally suggesting replacing Dwarven Defender with a class that keeps all or most of the same benefits and is called something else. That way you can still make dwarves that identify as Dwarven Defenders but other people can make any one of a variety of similar concepts that exist within other cultures/races.

AA is not useless and fits with a niche that makes sense. While I don't like the limitations of being elf only I'm also not trying to make an argument that AA should be made available to everyone because to me it makes sense that a technique that is heavy in magic and archery and was created by elves would be an elven thing. Dwarven defenders are stalwart warriors. While on average dwarves tend to be stouter than say men, there is little to stop a sturdy man from training himself in the same techniques which from what I understand are mundane in nature and have no magic or anything specifically about them that locks them into being a dwarf.

As for the alignment thing, I can't speak for blackguard but there are DnD or at least DnD-based world settings that remove or allow more flexibility for alignment for some of the classes (I think there are ones that allow for neutral and chaotic paladins, and I think even evil paladins) but while I find the concept of such neat, I don't see how it could be implemented without huge effort for what at this point would be little gain. Frankly the server has much bigger problems to surmount than a couple of classes being underutilized.

I see the point. I still think buffing it and keeping it as Dwarven Defender will make it more appealing to play a dwarven fighter. In all honesty. Can someone explain why it is "bad". Next step would be to make the AA for all to and suddenly the Dwarf and Elves loses to humans being able to do everything again. Either way, other issues need to be fixed as you mentioned.

I think the "bad" part comes in where the two biggest features of the class, defensive awareness and defensive stance, one of them is gimped because defensive stance immobilizes you, which is fine for the concept of the class, but while immobilized it gives you stat boosts that count against your max +12 to stat meaning the tradeoff of immobility is not at all worth it. DR is well and good but there are other builds (I have a barbarian one floating around for instance) that can get you high DR, so of the two things that set it apart as a class only one has any real use atm.

And dreadnought is a lot of fun as a concept, I toyed with trying to make a DwD-style build that is actually a dreadnought, but two of the bigger features of the class aren't really practical to implement in a direct way (though the substitute/simulation the other server I was going to use made sense) those big things (aside from DR and high HP) are Unstoppable and Unmovable, which give massive (I think its like 10 or 20) bonuses to Str checks for bullrushing/door bashing/wall smashing (unstoppable) and against bullrushing/pushback/knockdown(Unmovable). I'm not a coding expert (or even really a coding novice) but I imagine it might be easier to remove the dwarven restriction, rename the class, and leave it as that rather than make a whole new class at this point. That being said this is all speculation because I'm sure the DMs have better things to do than add a favor class

DolphinRacer wrote:

I think the "bad" part comes in where the two biggest features of the class, defensive awareness and defensive stance, one of them is gimped because defensive stance immobilizes you, which is fine for the concept of the class, but while immobilized it gives you stat boosts that count against your max +12 to stat meaning the tradeoff of immobility is not at all worth it. DR is well and good but there are other builds (I have a barbarian one floating around for instance) that can get you high DR, so of the two things that set it apart as a class only one has any real use atm.

And dreadnought is a lot of fun as a concept, I toyed with trying to make a DwD-style build that is actually a dreadnought, but two of the bigger features of the class aren't really practical to implement in a direct way (though the substitute/simulation the other server I was going to use made sense) those big things (aside from DR and high HP) are Unstoppable and Unmovable, which give massive (I think its like 10 or 20) bonuses to Str checks for bullrushing/door bashing/wall smashing (unstoppable) and against bullrushing/pushback/knockdown(Unmovable). I'm not a coding expert (or even really a coding novice) but I imagine it might be easier to remove the dwarven restriction, rename the class, and leave it as that rather than make a whole new class at this point. That being said this is all speculation because I'm sure the DMs have better things to do than add a favor class

The immobility part do sound horrible. I just find it a bit boring to take away a piece of racial classes. I rather see more dwarves than humans playing a "Human Defender".

I have to agree that races should have classes all their own, that's part of the flavor of playing those races, and the RP surrounding them. In the case of DwD, you have to consider what a dwarf is, and where they fight. They live in mountains, and fight in caves and tunnels underground, and come to the surface if they have to. A handful of DwDs can effectively hold the line in a tunnel against most floor level attacks, partially because of their racial sturdiness, that other races just don't have. Elves are supposed to be better at bows, and AA is one way to emulate that racial advantage, because some are going to be even better than other elves at it. Also, as pointed out, AAs were created by elves. The classes that were made available to a wider range of people, weren't racial classes (Yes, I know DD is racial, but it was made available to all dragon blooded). I would love to see more PrCs mechanically available on Amia, but the scope of work is tremendous, so we have to make do with what we have, for now. I'm still wracking my brain to find ways to emulate the abilities of my main's PrC, but I'm still having fun with the RP, too.

Mushidoz wrote:

TormakSaber wrote:

Kudark wrote:

Rogue is under-utilized. It's used as a skill dump, or for evasion/umd, but the skills of the class aren't used much on the server.

Ranger is under-utilized. It's used for the epic focus or AA class, but NWN borked them by not letting you go archer or dual wield, and the spell list is pathetic compared to the PHB.

Ranger is not under utilized, it gets the best weapon buff in the game, cats grace, good hiding and spotting spells, the pet, full BAB, favored Fort, martial prof and a good skillset. it's almost never used for AA.

Great class.

Underutilized =/= Underpowered

ranger is incredibly popular and frequently played making both sides of your argument incorrect, as someone who has had access to the DM side of the screen for very long period of time.

Ranger can also be used as a dump class in addition to the other good qualities it has!

Dunno what to do about DwD... I don't think making a Human Defender is in the cards, but I have a sneaking suspicion that it's unpopular because playing a dwarf is unpopular all by itself. :idea:

RaveN wrote:

Ranger can also be used as a dump class in addition to the other good qualities it has!

Dunno what to do about DwD... I don't think making a Human Defender is in the cards, but I have a sneaking suspicion that it's unpopular because playing a dwarf is unpopular all by itself. :idea:

I played a dwarven cleric for years and enjoyed every minute of it, i just played it my way... not Scottish nor a drunk, which i was always told to be incorrect... tell that to the full dwarf rogue my character hung round with! I tried playing a dwarf here but, i don't know it just didn't stick and as a starting race humans are so much easier just to screw into any setting! heh

... and i lover rangers, i think their spell side is a little lacking or at least very narrow focused BUT people do play them and do so to great effect in my experience.

TormakSaber wrote:

ranger is incredibly popular and frequently played making both sides of your argument incorrect, as someone who has had access to the DM side of the screen for very long period of time.

Do popular equal good?

Well obviously people enjoy the class benefits enough that it's worth making a ranger, so obviously it is good.

Richard_Edmund wrote:

Well obviously people enjoy the class benefits enough that it's worth making a ranger, so obviously it is good.

PLenty of overly popular games that is not really good games! I mean it do not mean it is powerful or a good class just cause many play it

It can, but it doesn't have to.

Budly wrote:

I just find it a bit boring to take away a piece of racial classes. I rather see more dwarves than humans playing a "Human Defender".

But that's the thing it takes away from nothing...

You could have a great elf only class like arcane archer for when you want to make a archer that's worth a damn ((for pure bow/arrow damage)).... but if the player does not want to RP being a elf....ect they just wont make a arcane archer hence the class gets used less if at all. Same thing for a dwarf and DwD.

If people don't want to RP a race they wont, so forcing classes tied to it just kind of kills the class being used making everyone more or less the same, and that just gets worse off OOC balance of stuff is thrown into the mix to also effect if they will make a class or something.

On the flip side, if someone wants to play a race they will just play it.... I don't see a large amount of harm if the classes got modded to be more open to other races...ect

Budly wrote:

TormakSaber wrote:

ranger is incredibly popular and frequently played making both sides of your argument incorrect, as someone who has had access to the DM side of the screen for very long period of time.

Do popular equal good?

Read the topic.

And yes, in videogames where numbercrunching matters, things are often popular because they are mechanically good. This is basic game design.

corypx wrote:

But that's the thing it takes away from nothing...

You could have a great elf only class like arcane archer for when you want to make a archer that's worth a damn ((for pure bow/arrow damage)).... but if the player does not want to RP being a elf....ect they just wont make a arcane archer hence the class gets used less if at all. Same thing for a dwarf and DwD.

If people don't want to RP a race they wont, so forcing classes tied to it just kind of kills the class being used making everyone more or less the same, and that just gets worse off OOC balance of stuff is thrown into the mix to also effect if they will make a class or something.

On the flip side, if someone wants to play a race they will just play it.... I don't see a large amount of harm if the classes got modded to be more open to other races...ect

As I said, if you want to play a Farstrider Ranger High Elf in the second War in a Warcraft based game....well you have to be a High Elf. It removes a fundamental thing in the world building. It removes the uniqueness of a certain prestige class tied to a race.

I personally rather not see Dwarven Defender removed. Rather then add this other class, Dreadnaught thing, which I hope is not to close either to make the Dwarven Defender feel even more obsolete mechanically.

TormakSaber wrote:

Budly wrote:

TormakSaber wrote:

ranger is incredibly popular and frequently played making both sides of your argument incorrect, as someone who has had access to the DM side of the screen for very long period of time.

Do popular equal good?

Read the topic.

And yes, in videogames where numbercrunching matters, things are often popular because they are mechanically good. This is basic game design.

Well you kinda missed my "Jack of all trades, master of non" post about Rangers. Just want you to explain what makes Rangers a good class when other classes in my opinion, do anything the ranger do but better.

Also, there is plenty of shallow games with rather simple game mechanics that is good nor evolutionairy for the genre that get high numbers of players.

Budly wrote:

corypx wrote:

But that's the thing it takes away from nothing...

You could have a great elf only class like arcane archer for when you want to make a archer that's worth a damn ((for pure bow/arrow damage)).... but if the player does not want to RP being a elf....ect they just wont make a arcane archer hence the class gets used less if at all. Same thing for a dwarf and DwD.

If people don't want to RP a race they wont, so forcing classes tied to it just kind of kills the class being used making everyone more or less the same, and that just gets worse off OOC balance of stuff is thrown into the mix to also effect if they will make a class or something.

On the flip side, if someone wants to play a race they will just play it.... I don't see a large amount of harm if the classes got modded to be more open to other races...ect

As I said, if you want to play a Farstrider Ranger High Elf in the second War in a Warcraft based game....well you have to be a High Elf. It removes a fundamental thing in the world building. It removes the uniqueness of a certain prestige class tied to a race.

I personally rather not see Dwarven Defender removed. Rather then add this other class, Dreadnaught thing, which I hope is not to close either to make the Dwarven Defender feel even more obsolete mechanically.

Our point is the class is already largely obsolete and at least part of that is due to the racial restriction on it, which is a mechanical limitation to reflect an RP one that is questionable at best. A legendary dreadnought dwarf is still effectively a dwarven defender and can even call themselves such, and it does nothing to diminish the RP of being a dwarven defender while opening the class to more players who may be avoiding it solely because they do not want to be locked into playing a dwarf. Like Cory said, making it more available doesn't really take away from the class at all. It just makes it more available. Hell it even adds RP opportunities, you could require non-dwarven defenders to learn the techniques from dwarves, maybe NPCs at first since there are few dwarven players left and then from PC players, much the way bards, BGs, SDs and the like can learn techniques from each other.

Quote:

Well you kinda missed my "Jack of all trades, master of non" post about Rangers. Just want you to explain what makes Rangers a good class when other classes in my opinion, do anything the ranger do but better.

what?

Quote:

Ranger is not under utilized, it gets the best weapon buff in the game, cats grace, good hiding and spotting spells, the pet, full BAB, favored Fort, martial prof and a good skillset. it's almost never used for AA.

i said it here already. again: please read the topic. i even forgot bane of enemies, favored enemy, d10 HD, and the free dual weilding which, with gloves in game, can be done in heavy armor, making STR based dual weilding without 15 dex possible.

You're not a Dwarven Defender although. If this is not confirmed by a DM or similar. I cannot say that im a that Knight of Thay or what it is now called, that protects a Red Wizard of Thay. I lack the abilities bound to their training and rituals or what it can be. I also would say a Dreadnaught is not a Dwarven Defender. The Class itself, must have some kind of own foundation in something. You can also say that when that sheet do not say "Dwarven Defender" you do diminish that character and player of their class by giving them a "majority" human class which this probably ends up being since it is not racially tied.

The Warlock is based on bard here but it is still officially supported. But to remove the Dwarven Defender in favour of this Prestige Class? No, I say add more, do not remove.

Fucking quotes are starting to be really annoying.

But Tormak, I very much said other classes are better at everything the ranger do. They do a lot but are not the best at anything. Also, do utilize = used or what? My English skills do not cover this part. Would you say they are popular only because they are good? Cause you said mechanics make people play thigns but the Ranger is not "The best" so if people really play for good mechanics, why is the Ranger popular when it is not top tier, nr 1 at anything?

Utilized=used in this instance yes.

And rangers are a very useful and flexible class both as a standalone and as an augmentation class, even if you don't use them purely for skill dump, you can do a lot of fun stuff both mechanically and RPwise using ranger as a core build and they are far far far away from being underpowered and underutilized. The only reason you see less now is there is less of everyone now, but rangers are a popular class to play on most servers I've played on.

As for the defender thing, I guess we will have to agree to disagree, I think making it widely available is a good thing and while I think it unlikely anyone would be overly upset if that were implemented, I think long term it would make the class more popular even if a few people got a little irked by it, because right now the class is dead in part because it requires you to be a dwarf.

DolphinRacer wrote:

Utilized=used in this instance yes.

And rangers are a very useful and flexible class both as a standalone and as an augmentation class, even if you don't use them purely for skill dump, you can do a lot of fun stuff both mechanically and RPwise using ranger as a core build and they are far far far away from being underpowered and underutilized. The only reason you see less now is there is less of everyone now, but rangers are a popular class to play on most servers I've played on.

Funny, cause on POTM they are seen as shit, hard to balance out in a good way, much like Monks I believe it was.

Given PotM's setup is somewhat different from...well literally every other server I've played on...I wouldn't use them as a baseline for judging how good a class is.

DolphinRacer wrote:

Given PotM's setup is somewhat different from...well literally every other server I've played on...I wouldn't use them as a baseline for judging how good a class is.

"
If they done anything, they made it better I believe. And if POTM is supposed to be "harder" than Amia, it makes little sense if it is the one of worst classes but a "super good" here. If it is buffed up a bit there but not here.

My point pretty much is, a bad class can be popular still. Most people, should at the core, be here for the RP and not for the mechanics on class and race at the core of their playing on Amia.

I disagree. If a class is bad, difficult to play, has no benefit, and you constantly get killed, it rapidly loses any incentive to play it. The fact that ranger is one of the more widely played classes I've seen on most servers, and the fact that from experience playing it I know how potent ranger-based builds can be, shows that this is not the case with that class.

Whereas, for example, Dwarven Defender is not played all that much in part because of dwarf requirement and in part because its mechanically broken and not worth it. Here and elsewhere I rarely have seen DwD characters (I played on one server that had exactly two for the entire existence of the server.)

I've been warned off playing multiple classes purely based off mechanically they suck (here or elsewhere), some of which I ignored if I wanted the RP associated with it but mechanical benefit has a huge impact on the popularity of the class. Even though its a game the average person generally does not want to set themselves or a character up for failure.

And race as a mechanic IS part of RP. It literally forces you if you want to play a particular type of person with skills defined by a particular class to play a dwarf, or elf, or whatever the case may be. That mechanic is DIRECTLY affecting the playability of the class from a roleplay perspective. You -have- to take that mechanic into account to play that class.

DolphinRacer wrote:

I disagree. If a class is bad, difficult to play, has no benefit, and you constantly get killed, it rapidly loses any incentive to play it. The fact that ranger is one of the more widely played classes I've seen on most servers, and the fact that from experience playing it I know how potent ranger-based builds can be, shows that this is not the case with that class.

Whereas, for example, Dwarven Defender is not played all that much in part because of dwarf requirement and in part because its mechanically broken and not worth it. Here and elsewhere I rarely have seen DwD characters (I played on one server that had exactly two for the entire existence of the server.)

I've been warned off playing multiple classes purely based off mechanically they suck (here or elsewhere), some of which I ignored if I wanted the RP associated with it but mechanical benefit has a huge impact on the popularity of the class. Even though its a game the average person generally does not want to set themselves or a character up for failure.

And race as a mechanic IS part of RP. It literally forces you if you want to play a particular type of person with skills defined by a particular class to play a dwarf, or elf, or whatever the case may be. That mechanic is DIRECTLY affecting the playability of the class from a roleplay perspective. You -have- to take that mechanic into account to play that class.

Well, it is RP that is the focus.

To remove the Dwarven Defender and add a Dreadnaught class and then call yourself a Dwarven Defender...I think it just shows people did not want to play the class anyway from the get go. You're not a Dwarven Defend with that class on it.

As I stated too, the class is jack of all trades but there is classes that are specialized at doing what they do, and doing it better.

We really are rolling in circles here

Well, the jack of all tradeness is part of the point. And their specialisation.
Bane of Enemies gives them huge amounts of damage to a racial group. That means they tend to have a focus: PvP, PvE, RP. There are certain FEs that are more unniversal, like outsoder, but others, you will want strictly for PvP (like human)
They actually are a master at fighting those favoired enemies. They are extremely good at that. Yrah, they are (almost) subpar otherwise, like you say, but a pet combined with theor martial focus is awesome. Basically it mixes a summon with the ability Fight well itself, which is a niche only clerics get, and even then only when the cleric took ages to buff. So, I'd say they are a little bit better than the whole 'master of none', as they can do certain things other classes can't.
Otherwise, you can boil every Conjuration wizard to that, since Cleric on Repose gets a stronger summon, which makes Conj Wizards somewhat redundant. But they have other thing that make playing them worth it.

Budly wrote:

Well, it is RP that is the focus.

To remove the Dwarven Defender and add a Dreadnaught class and then call yourself a Dwarven Defender...I think it just shows people did not want to play the class anyway from the get go. You're not a Dwarven Defend with that class on it.

As I stated too, the class is jack of all trades but there is classes that are specialized at doing what they do, and doing it better.

We really are rolling in circles here

By opening classes and altering them to where more can use them just allowed for players to make more unique and interesting characters to the server. A Dwarven Defender class being opened up to Dwarven Defender/Dreadnaught allows for someone to RP a wider range of builds and play styles.

I think your failing to see the value of changes to open up classes, by removing Champion of Torm and changing it to be open to a Divine Champion did not prevent people from making a Champion of Torm.... it just allowed people to make a Champion of ANYTHING!

We allow people to RP the druid class as shaman with RP restrictions one them I believe is not being able to use the Animal Companion if I recall, should we say no a druid is a druid?

corypx wrote:

Budly wrote:

Well, it is RP that is the focus.

To remove the Dwarven Defender and add a Dreadnaught class and then call yourself a Dwarven Defender...I think it just shows people did not want to play the class anyway from the get go. You're not a Dwarven Defend with that class on it.

As I stated too, the class is jack of all trades but there is classes that are specialized at doing what they do, and doing it better.

We really are rolling in circles here

By opening classes and altering them to where more can use them just allowed for players to make more unique and interesting characters to the server. A Dwarven Defender class being opened up to Dwarven Defender/Dreadnaught allows for someone to RP a wider range of builds and play styles.

I think your failing to see the value of changes to open up classes, by removing Champion of Torm and changing it to be open to a Divine Champion did not prevent people from making a Champion of Torm.... it just allowed people to make a Champion of ANYTHING!

We allow people to RP the druid class as shaman with RP restrictions one them I believe is not being able to use the Animal Companion if I recall, should we say no a druid is a druid?

In a technical standpoint, we should do that. But if the boss crew okayed it, that is something different.

About the Champion of Torm,

It is based on the Divine Champion if Im not remembering wrong

http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Divine_champion

A class not bound to a certain diety.

And if we want to be really picky, there is a Shaman class out there, published.

http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Dwarven_defender

"The path of the dwarven defender or dwarven hero is a highly trained and specialized fighter tradition that is available to the dwarven race. These individuals take pride from the noble history of their race and its constant vigilance against exterior threats such as giants or goblinoids, which they hope to match in spirit as well as form.[1]"

The class of the Dwarven Defender is clearly based on the never ending conflict with the greenskins and the Dwarven tradition of defending their subterranean homes. I see the value in classes that should be open, like the Divine Champion. But I do not think this class shall be open to everyone. If anything, do like with the Warlock and base the Dreadnaught on it but do not take away the Dwarven legacy of this class and give it to humans and other races that do not have this traditional way of fighting. The lore of the class is not that of a Dreadnaught.

Budly wrote:

http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Dwarven_defender

"The path of the dwarven defender or dwarven hero is a highly trained and specialized fighter tradition that is available to the dwarven race. These individuals take pride from the noble history of their race and its constant vigilance against exterior threats such as giants or goblinoids, which they hope to match in spirit as well as form.[1]"

The class of the Dwarven Defender is clearly based on the never ending conflict with the greenskins and the Dwarven tradition of defending their subterranean homes. I see the value in classes that should be open, like the Divine Champion. But I do not think this class shall be open to everyone. If anything, do like with the Warlock and base the Dreadnaught on it but do not take away the Dwarven legacy of this class and give it to humans and other races that do not have this traditional way of fighting. The lore of the class is not that of a Dreadnaught.

About to leave for work so wont be able to reply after this for some hours but...

They could just alter the class req for DWD and allow people to call themselves a Dreadnaught and it would not hurt the lore or effect the class of DwD at all..... so the point is kind of moot, it seems more like forced pigeon holing for no reason, it would allow people to more classes and builds without Devs having to do a lot of scripting work from the ground up, just alter to remove the race req.

You could still RP all the stuff with the dwarven background...ect if you pick to be a dwarf and play a DwD and someone else could RP a Dreadnaught and both would not be hurting each other.

Making DwD availible to more people makes it played by more people. More diversity. If that diversity was used for just playing humans, I personally can see that. I'd see it just like a Divine Champion of torm has the right to call himself a Champion of Torm.

I hate the term Human Defender that was used at some point in this thread, but I don't really see how sturdyness could not be used as a basis for a human fighting style. I'd even liken it more to a Dragon Disciple, as a Blue Dragon disciple is not in a sourcebook. So, should we not have done that, making it availible to more characters? Should we have forced even a Paladin to be a red dragon disciple? By your argument, it lessens the lore behind an RDD.

Or Purple Dragon Knight turned into a general Knight Commander. Or Master Scout. Those are similar. Would it not lessen people that would want to actually play Harper Scouts, or Purple Dragon Knights, because they are not able to play a unique thing?
Personally, I think more is better. If more people can do something, it will be played more, meaning more people will have fun with things like that.

As an aside, I find ironic that most of the Dwarfs I've seen are DwDs. It makes me wonder (and I actually know the answer to be 'no') whether I am the only one tempted to make a dwarf, just to try the DwD.

My theory is that if we would make DwD availible to all, more people would play it, and less people would play a dwarf. Simply because it's easier to make a human than a dwarf. On the other hand, those people would play dwarves because they want to, not because they want to try DwD.

tl;dr: Cory ninja'd me, I agree 100% with him.

corypx wrote:

Budly wrote:

http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Dwarven_defender

"The path of the dwarven defender or dwarven hero is a highly trained and specialized fighter tradition that is available to the dwarven race. These individuals take pride from the noble history of their race and its constant vigilance against exterior threats such as giants or goblinoids, which they hope to match in spirit as well as form.[1]"

The class of the Dwarven Defender is clearly based on the never ending conflict with the greenskins and the Dwarven tradition of defending their subterranean homes. I see the value in classes that should be open, like the Divine Champion. But I do not think this class shall be open to everyone. If anything, do like with the Warlock and base the Dreadnaught on it but do not take away the Dwarven legacy of this class and give it to humans and other races that do not have this traditional way of fighting. The lore of the class is not that of a Dreadnaught.

About to leave for work so wont be able to reply after this for some hours but...

They could just alter the class req for DWD and allow people to call themselves a Dreadnaught and it would not hurt the lore or effect the class of DwD at all..... so the point is kind of moot, it seems more like forced pigeon holing for no reason, it would allow people to more classes and builds without Devs having to do a lot of scripting work from the ground up, just alter to remove the race req.

You could still RP all the stuff with the dwarven background...ect if you pick to be a dwarf and play a DwD and someone else could RP a Dreadnaught and both would not be hurting each other.

I honestly do not agree and think it removes the legitimate claim of being a Dwarven Defender. Next step is the Arcane Archer being a Sharpshooter or what that other sniper PRC is called. I forgot the name. It takes away from the racial uniqueness. There is RP behind gaining a PRC as I noticed, My Arcane Archer had classes to learn how to do this.

To me the best solution is to add more classes or buff it. I do not want this but that is my opinion and it matters not much, non of ours do I guess. It is all up to the devs with other crew. Have a good day at work mate.

And Robbi, if less people play dwarves...the diversity dies and we have more humans. It kinda kills the whole Dwarven Defender class and lowers the amount of Dwarves.

What do you feel is the most under-utilized class?

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