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msheeler wrote:

Just wondering, since you are playing devil's advocate Tormak and Commie, what might you suggested for Dirty Fighting, Improved Initiative, or Parry?

Dirty Fighting makes me think off tossing sand in someone's eyes, so what about a one round blind?

Parry... I was always for a fighter tumble substitute that does not stack with tumble. Sorta eliminates the need to multi-class and tumble dump.

Improved Initiative... Some of the ideas tossed out so far sounded interesting, but it seems they all revolve around some sort of +AB, which seems like it might be mechanically unbalancing.

parry, +1 ac per 5 base points if your off hand is empty. could go to +5 with 30 base skill, or +8 with full investment and skill focus (+1) and epic skill focus (+2). would help fist monks itemize.

dirty fighting, active, cooldown based, fort vs blind. would need to be an actual skill not an item so you can use it w/o ffing yourself.

imp init, dunno, init on nwn is strange.

msheeler wrote:

I am not sure how 1 round of blindness is any worse than 1 round of laying prone that KD does.

Blind:

Quote:

Blinded creatures are unable to see. This gives them a 50% miss chance and a -4 penalty to all attack rolls, while giving those attacking them a +2 bonus to attack rolls. Furthermore, a blind creature is considered flat-footed and is unable to directly target distant creatures with spells or attacks. Additionally, there is a -4 penalty to discipline, hide, move silently, open lock, parry, pick pocket, set trap and tumble.

http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Blind

Prone:

Quote:

Prone creatures are those that are lying on the ground. They are incapacitated and considered flat-footed, losing their dexterity bonus to armor class. Creatures attacking a prone individual in melee combat get a +4 bonus to their attack roll, while those attacking with a ranged weapon get a -4 penalty to their attack roll.

http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Prone

My version:

- You get a penalty of 5 or 6 dmg
- You gain +2 to AB
- You can combo with knockdown

Your version:

- You get no penalty (at least not spoken of)
- You gain the benefits of blind (including 2 AB for you, and -4 for them)
- You can still knockdown (easier, since they could be blinded)

So instead of giving a slice of cake.. you give them a slice of cake, and ice cream!

Well, Blind Fight gets rid of the +2 AB, and you kind of need that for almost everything. So it's only -4 to AB and skills, as opposed to 'no using skills or attacking, because you are prone'. Also, quite honestly, I don't think putting it on a fort save will make it useful. Unless we put the DC up around 40+, it seems pretty useless, because you will have a 5% chance of it happening.

Except giving blind does not remove the ability to use knockdown Robbi.. You have to compare combo vs combo, not combo vs 1 feat.

As for blind fight removing the penalty.. Blind fight is already an outstanding feat. Do we really want to make it even more mandatory than it already is?

honestly though i'd rather see the dev team work on actual issues instead of stuff like this. some spell schools need to be finished, many bugs exist, etc.

manhours are a resource we don't have much of.

Commie wrote:

parry, +1 ac per 5 base points if your off hand is empty. could go to +5 with 30 base skill, or +8 with full investment and skill focus (+1) and epic skill focus (+2). would help fist monks itemize.

dirty fighting, active, cooldown based, fort vs blind. would need to be an actual skill not an item so you can use it w/o ffing yourself.

imp init, dunno, init on nwn is strange.

Parry sounds great.

Dirty Fighting: Still useless since vs Fort, in every instance Dirty Fighting would be useful KD or IKD would be superior (Unless the blind lasts longer than a round of course) I am currently experimenting in my own module (mostly to see if it is even possible) to do a conditional feat. For instance, when you use Dirty Fighting if the target has X condition or what ever you get X effect. The goal I have in mind for this would be to present an optional mechanic/facet of melee combat where your goal would be to inflict conditions such as Knockdown/Called Shot Arm/Leg and then use dirty fighting which would have certain effects based on the condition(s) your opponent had. Of course it would mean that dirty fighting was even better in 2v1 etc situations but then again... it's called dirty fighting for a reason. Either way, I just want to see if it is possible engine wise and I am just learning how to script for nwn so don't expect a miracle or anything too fantastic. But if I can come up with a working proof of concept I'll submit it to the Dev team to look at.

Improved Initiative:

As far as I've researched there are many reasons why Initiative isn't that impactful in game, however there is an interesting thing of note. Again, I am still learning nwn scripting so this may not be possible, but once I'm done messing with dirty fighting: The initiative roll for each character is stored until the end of combat, theoretically it may be possible to access that variable to offer some kind of benefit to the person with Improved Initiative and a higher number. This would in my opinion "match" the Improved Initiative name (because having a higher initiative would actually be a constant positive), and indirectly benefit the other feats that boost initiative. What that bonus could be or should be is not something I could state or suggest at the moment but I'm sure with all the minds around we could come up with something.

Commie wrote:

honestly though i'd rather see the dev team work on actual issues instead of stuff like this. some spell schools need to be finished, many bugs exist, etc.

Manhours are a resource we don't have much of.

I absolutely agree with what I underlined there! (spells I couldn't give a *** about though, they're already more than powerful as is and thus clearly not a priority in my book)

the spell focus redo is only about half done and should be finished.

Last edited by Mushidoz on Mon, Apr 17 2017, 17:34 PM, edited 1 time in total.

Commie wrote:

the spell focus redo is only about half done and should be finished.

For what purpose exactly? So that there are more casters? So that casters become even stronger? Last I checked, they are at the top of the food chain - so if we go by "We shouldn't deal with useless melee feats because there are more important things to do", then I don't think buffing something that's even stronger than the characters that would benefit from these useless feats fit under the "more important things to do" category.

Fixing bugs, implementing more fun dungeons, coming up with nice events for all range of characters (not just epic events), going through the epic loots, updating the mythal system, etc. etc. would benefit far more people than buffing overpowered classes with more versatility and even stronger spells.

(Not gonna reply after, since that's not the place ^^)

Quote:

Dirty Fighting: Still useless since vs Fort, in every instance Dirty Fighting would be useful KD or IKD would be superior (Unless the blind lasts longer than a round of course)

There are characters who have differentials in their fort scores vs their discipline scores.

TormakSaber wrote:

Quote:

Dirty Fighting: Still useless since vs Fort, in every instance Dirty Fighting would be useful KD or IKD would be superior (Unless the blind lasts longer than a round of course)

There are characters who have differentials in their fort scores vs their discipline scores.

I don't disagree but high Fort at least on this server seems to be a constant across all builds/gearing where as you are more likely to find a build lacking discipline which means KD would be superior in my opinion. Unless the DC was going to be higher than typical saves vs Fort.

Mushidoz wrote:

Commie wrote:

the spell focus redo is only about half done and should be finished.

For what purpose exactly? So that there are more casters? So that casters become even stronger? Last I checked, they are at the top of the food chain - so if we go by "We shouldn't deal with useless melee feats because there are more important things to do", then I don't think buffing something that's even stronger than the characters that would benefit from these useless feats fit under the "more important things to do" category.

Fixing bugs, implementing more fun dungeons, coming up with nice events for all range of characters (not just epic events), going through the epic loots, updating the mythal system, etc. etc. would benefit far more people than buffing overpowered classes with more versatility and even stronger spells.

(Not gonna reply after, since that's not the place ^^)

Casters are not that good. In a three or four round dump they are amazing, then quickly run out of gas. They do well in our pvp tourny because they are guaranteed one thing: time to prepare against a specific opponent.

In random pvp you can jump them unbuffed, run away and re-engage, all sorts of things that non pvp players don't see but obliterate them.

I'd want to point that I always wanted to see Parry as some sort of Shield bonus or Vs single attacker bonus rather than "fighter's tumble."

Why? Dipping one or two levels for Rogue or Monk is still worth it for Evasion and miscellaneous bonuses(cleave, sneak attack, skills). Even if we get rid of the need to dip those classes for Tumble, melee classes will still dip for those reasons and I don't think it changes much in the long run. Offering something that they're already missing(shield AC for some weapon styles, or concealment that they'd have to dip UMD for) always seemed more appealing to me.

A brainstorm for retooling feats that don't see much use. In the vein of "allowing meleers to do things that anyone with a pulse could think to do," Called Shot is pretty mild when it comes to allowing them to perform targeted strikes. It's a discipline check, and you're better off spamming KD. Tweaking it so it becomes a viable tool against things meleers often struggle against(casters, ranged attackers, and sneaks) would makes it an attractive and viable alternative. If you see everything as a nail, then KD is your hammer. But Called Shot shot, while more situational, has a longer payout of 4 Rounds than might pay better dividends than spamming KD every round.

Called Shot: Arm - Successful shot also applies -2 Shield AC to target. Fortitude Roll vs 35% Spell Failure and Ranged Miss Chance.

Called Shot: Leg - Successful shot also applies -2 Dodge AC to target. Fortitude Roll vs Stealth Mode Denial(unable to enter Stealth Mode for duration).

Called Shot Arm: Grappling may or may not be something we can do well on the server. But in the meantime, the thought that you'd see some finger-waggler waving his hands around and wouldn't try to bash his pretty fingers in is laughable. KD spam will shut him down for a round(but most casters know to max discipline already). You get lucky once with CS:A and you have four rounds where he's going to be sweating hard and a third of his spells will fail. Same goes for a ranged enemy that continuously kites you. The Shield AC penalty also makes this a viable attack against other meleers. Combined with the -2 Attack penalty, a smart meleer has a long-term strategy against certain enemies. Trying to outright bowl over a 2 ton enemy doesn't always work. Going for joints and tendons might be a better bet and makes it less about size.

Called Shot Leg: Again, while grabbing the ninja dude flipping in and out of shadows isn't on the table at the moment, chopping him in the knee and hobbling him so he can't limp his ass back into the shadows makes sense. If you want to play whack-a-sneak with a SD and KD, go ahead. But you're playing the same numbers game you are with the mage and KD. You're going to have to get lucky. With CS:L, you only have to be lucky once to turn the tide of the fight. No, he's not prone and defenseless for one round like with Knockdown, but for four rounds, he actually has to stand and fight you. Or try to run away, which is not a great option with the reduced movespeed.

Fortitude Roll: The obvious way to calculate the Fortitude Roll would be 10+ 1/2 Character Level + Strength Modifier, just like Dev Crit. I would be very interested, however, to also allow either Dexterity or Intelligence to add to the DC in some way(partially, fully, don't know yet, math is needed first). Big dumb meleers have to get lucky on a 1 just like they have to do with everything else. But, in an effort to encourage stat synergy and more than min-maxed full-plate meleers, Dex and/or Int applying would be nice. If you build for more than just STR, you could get a bit higher than the 40 DC that everyone and their grandmother already prepares for.

Game Narrative: Melee and Weapons

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