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thunderbrush
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 Posted: Mon, Apr 17 2017, 15:14 PM |
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Player
Joined: 12 Nov 2015
Location: The belly of the beast
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I'm not disagreeing, and am generally on a fence about the whole thing. The irony is that the entire module is based on a mechanical exploit in the leveling system that allows for skill dumping anyway.
(In Pathfinder this is a non issue. In good ole D&D skill dumping is a "house rule" and is often frowned upon, being the domain of twinks and munchkins.)
My point is: This hasn't broken the server. It hasn't made druids over powered in epic areas, which is where they will be spending most of time. Name one reason other than "because I don't like it" to change it. I don't accept it as an exploit in a gaming environment where splashing one level of another class gives you access to almost all the powerful gear and equipment in game and instant +6 A.C.. It makes infinitely more sense for an Air elemental to not only be able to focus lightning, but be good at it too, than for a barbarian to be able to use a scroll of Gate.
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Jace Fenneril: Cleric of Sharess.
Michael Harcourte: Painter, Scribe.
Sebastian Mayartte: Gambler, MercenaryDeceased
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TormakSaber
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Posted: Mon, Apr 17 2017, 17:24 PM |
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Player
Joined: 16 Dec 2004
Location: Somewhere
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Because it goes against core thematic and lore based things in the setting of the server.
_________________
Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham
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thunderbrush
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Posted: Mon, Apr 17 2017, 18:23 PM |
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Player
Joined: 12 Nov 2015
Location: The belly of the beast
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TormakSaber wrote: Because it goes against core thematic and lore based things in the setting of the server. I would say because it's "cheap"  Not really familiar with any specific lore it breaks.
_________________
Jace Fenneril: Cleric of Sharess.
Michael Harcourte: Painter, Scribe.
Sebastian Mayartte: Gambler, MercenaryDeceased
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TormakSaber
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Posted: Tue, Apr 18 2017, 4:22 AM |
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Player
Joined: 16 Dec 2004
Location: Somewhere
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I'd say infinity metamagicks would be a pretty core lore/settings break, IMO.
_________________
Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham
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SuicidalStyle
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Posted: Tue, Apr 18 2017, 14:34 PM |
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Player
Joined: 30 Jun 2014
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Wouldn't any infinite spell be a lore/settings break? And, aren't the lore/settings whatever the DMs decide? Things have changed before have they not?
_________________ Account moved to LeathanKayne.
Delen and Fosco will see ya on that one!
(If you PM me on this, I likely won't see it for a long time >.>)
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RaveN
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Posted: Tue, Apr 18 2017, 16:02 PM |
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Administrative Developer
Joined: 08 Jun 2010
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Generally, when things are broken in a game, usually they are fixed when that fix is easy to implement, and possible (in this case, it seems to very so). If that fix creates a power vacuum, then we should be talking about how to plug whatever power vacuum there is.
I also don't think tumble dumping is exploitable, nor is taking 1 level of another class to reap the benefits. In pathfinder, it might not be an issue, but in amia, it's a structural part of class building, and has been since the module existed. It might change one day, but for now, you are always free to crossclass tumble, or simply not get it at all. It won't always be the decisive factor. One would argue that some builds/playstyles fail if they even get hit, so they elect to not get AC at all, or will elect for ED/HiPS/GSanc and evasion builds that kite you forever. Either way, that is not related to this topic.
I do, however, think infinite spellcasting is an exploit in nature, but that is my view. It certainly could be a lot worse of one, though.
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a.k.a. Audrey Zinata
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TormakSaber
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Posted: Tue, Apr 18 2017, 22:30 PM |
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Player
Joined: 16 Dec 2004
Location: Somewhere
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SuicidalStyle wrote: Wouldn't any infinite spell be a lore/settings break? And, aren't the lore/settings whatever the DMs decide? Things have changed before have they not? To clarify, your stance is that infinite DC 35 AoE effects of any one of 4 different elements (fire, cold, acid, elec) doing 128 dmg on a failed save, castable 2x a round, is mechanically balanced and not lore affecting when that comes from metamagics with, by lore, require special effort and casting to weild and require higher level spell slots and magical expenditures? At Will effects themselves are not lore breaking, a great deal of even core PHB monsters have abilities and spells useble at will.
_________________
Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham
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Gravemaskin
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Posted: Wed, Apr 19 2017, 9:17 AM |
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Player
Joined: 29 Jul 2007
Location: Norway: Home of the Trolls
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If it's being replaced with ball lightning, it's going to be DC 37 with 21-126 (average 73-74) lightning damage for epic evokers with base 30 wis (which is what the numbers above was based on if I'm not mistaken)
So it's a drop in damage & damage types but still good enough to be worth using in certain situations and areas. In fact, in areas without any damage immunities or resistances, it's going to outperform the Warlock class' 22d6 at level 30, due to the fact that hasted the air elemental damage is effectively 42d6 per round with a higher DC than a 14 Chamod Warlock's eldritch doom (DC 32). Where the warlock's blast shines though, is the fact that you can change it to any damage type besides divine,positive & lightning.
This means that the air elemental is FAR from useless given the above, and Druids are far from neutered. Something that was completely overpowered gets taken down a few pegs without shafting pure druids completely & it's a quicker fix than trying to fix the maximized feat on druids if I've understood that right, so it's a nice compromise to patch the problem quicker. You fix the completely OP stuff without potentially having a bunch of people go for rebuilds by keeping it a valid option still.
The fact that Air elemental druids get something most warlocks or other damage spammers don't get: Elemental immunities, one of the strongest summons in the game + epic summon & all the druidic buffs to go with the damage means druids in air elemental form is still going to land near the top of the PvE food chain.
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Adair - Druid and part time treant cosplayer
Last edited by Gravemaskin on Wed, Apr 19 2017, 13:05 PM, edited 1 time in total.
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Amarice-Elaraliel
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Posted: Wed, Apr 19 2017, 10:43 AM |
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Joined: 20 Jan 2006
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I am not against removing Max an Empower spell. Shifters have it removed too.
I felt ball lightning was a nice and rather neat looking alternative, everyone should be able to live with.
What I am against, is removing spells entirely from elemental forms.
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thunderbrush
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Posted: Thu, Apr 20 2017, 17:09 PM |
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Player
Joined: 12 Nov 2015
Location: The belly of the beast
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Redacted**
_________________
Jace Fenneril: Cleric of Sharess.
Michael Harcourte: Painter, Scribe.
Sebastian Mayartte: Gambler, MercenaryDeceased
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Terra_777
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Posted: Sat, Apr 22 2017, 11:01 AM |
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Administrative Developer
Joined: 31 Jan 2007
Location: Sweden
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Using meta-magic while shifted was deemed an exploit back in the day. However it was fixed in the code. For example ice-storm which was the biggest no-no just ignores meta-magic if you're polymorphed. http://puu.sh/vspXi/bbdb286413.png (old script, no clue what it looks like today)
_________________
Fear is not evil… It tells you what your weakness is. And once you know your weakness, you can become stronger as well as kinder. - Gildarts Clive, Fairy Tail, Hiro Mashima.
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Commie
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Posted: Sat, Apr 22 2017, 15:07 PM |
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Joined: 02 Dec 2015
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it didn't fix druids just shifters.
I was told it was an exploit but opinions have waned.
_________________ ANT ALARM Count Kaldrjarn Pitt | Archmage Kilmar | Sarguk Morderer ANT ALARM MisterLich wrote: First of all, my brain is one of the best here.
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robbi320
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Posted: Sat, Apr 22 2017, 16:09 PM |
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Joined: 04 Jan 2015
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That's just one of the things that always made me think it was intentional. It was disabled for shifters, but not for Druids.
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Commie
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Posted: Sat, Apr 22 2017, 16:11 PM |
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Joined: 02 Dec 2015
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druids also have other funky oddities.
for example their dragon shape breath is missing a bunch of die compared to a shifters.
_________________ ANT ALARM Count Kaldrjarn Pitt | Archmage Kilmar | Sarguk Morderer ANT ALARM MisterLich wrote: First of all, my brain is one of the best here.
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Terra_777
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Posted: Thu, Apr 27 2017, 16:08 PM |
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Administrative Developer
Joined: 31 Jan 2007
Location: Sweden
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Except the anti-meta-magic I did for shifters encompassed being polymorphed as a whole regardless of source. So adding the same functionality to the spellscripts that can fire when polymorphed would fix it, even for druids.
The dragonshape breath-dice being higher for shifters was an intentional thing though.
_________________
Fear is not evil… It tells you what your weakness is. And once you know your weakness, you can become stronger as well as kinder. - Gildarts Clive, Fairy Tail, Hiro Mashima.
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Commie
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Posted: Thu, Apr 27 2017, 16:58 PM |
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Player
Joined: 02 Dec 2015
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Terra_777 wrote: Except the anti-meta-magic I did for shifters encompassed being polymorphed as a whole regardless of source. So adding the same functionality to the spellscripts that can fire when polymorphed would fix it, even for druids.
The dragonshape breath-dice being higher for shifters was an intentional thing though. yup. was just saying it was unusual. _________________ ANT ALARM Count Kaldrjarn Pitt | Archmage Kilmar | Sarguk Morderer ANT ALARM MisterLich wrote: First of all, my brain is one of the best here.
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bobofwestoregonusa
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Posted: Wed, May 03 2017, 8:34 AM |
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Player
Joined: 09 Jun 2012
Location: Eastern Washington
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I'm glad this is being addressed because I've seen to many "non druids" using elemental swarm to farm their way up. Frankly I think shifter should be druids only but they're already grandfathered in. Especially people like Cory, whom have been around forever and still play. It wouldn't really be fair to just sort of ret-con them since they've been around so long. But I still think a change ought to be made for future reference because shifters are currently "guys who just change shape with no requisites."
They just are super powered.
_________________  Gerald EdmundDiscord: Metal Viking Guy #5433 DC taxation is theft!
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Commie
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Posted: Wed, May 03 2017, 18:39 PM |
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Player
Joined: 02 Dec 2015
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yeah if you only have 5 druid and then go into shifter you can just not self-identify as a druid.
but when you do that you also arn't supposed to cast spells anymore. my dwarf doesn't, for example.
_________________ ANT ALARM Count Kaldrjarn Pitt | Archmage Kilmar | Sarguk Morderer ANT ALARM MisterLich wrote: First of all, my brain is one of the best here.
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Gravemaskin
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Posted: Wed, May 03 2017, 21:00 PM |
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Player
Joined: 29 Jul 2007
Location: Norway: Home of the Trolls
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Uh just to clarify, Cory is a bad example for that because he's never RPed his char using druidic magic or any other things gained from the 5 druid levels, such as druid spells.
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Adair - Druid and part time treant cosplayer
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corypx
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Posted: Wed, May 03 2017, 22:30 PM |
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Player
Joined: 14 Oct 2006
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bobofwestoregonusa wrote: I'm glad this is being addressed because I've seen to many "non druids" using elemental swarm to farm their way up. Frankly I think shifter should be druids only but they're already grandfathered in. Especially people like Cory, whom have been around forever and still play. It wouldn't really be fair to just sort of ret-con them since they've been around so long. But I still think a change ought to be made for future reference because shifters are currently "guys who just change shape with no requisites."
They just are super powered. Given this topic has nothing to do with non-druid I don't even know why you bring it up at all unless you did not really read the topic, the topic is about shifters had the ability to meta-magic unlimited use spells removed but elemental does not suffer the same. PnP wise more then just druid can get shifter and trust me I don't like have 5 levels of useless, but because of NWN we have to take druid, and they could not/did not want to add it to stuff like wizard/sorc to unlock it, or a race that could gain shifter. but to have it be druid only they would more or less have to remove undead shape,golem shape, mindflayer...ect from use. _________________ ================-<Cory ShadowFlame>-================ Risenlord-Shifter(OMG a Non-Dragon Shifter that can hold his own in PvE) 
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robbi320
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Posted: Fri, May 05 2017, 9:30 AM |
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Player
Joined: 04 Jan 2015
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Well, I feel like the people arguing against bob haven't read the topic. 'Non-Druids' using elemental swarm kind of is addressed, since you can put on a level 9 spell slot item and cast ele swarm
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corypx
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Posted: Fri, May 05 2017, 17:12 PM |
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Player
Joined: 14 Oct 2006
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robbi320 wrote: Well, I feel like the people arguing against bob haven't read the topic. 'Non-Druids' using elemental swarm kind of is addressed, since you can put on a level 9 spell slot item and cast ele swarm See but that's the thing it does not need to be talked about because its very simple and very clear, non-druids are not druids......hence cant use druid spells, druid only items...etc. the end.... if they are doing that they are in breach of the rules and the DMs slap them, its been like that for all non-druids for the last like 10 years. _________________ ================-<Cory ShadowFlame>-================ Risenlord-Shifter(OMG a Non-Dragon Shifter that can hold his own in PvE)
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