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Maverick00053
 
PostPosted: Sun, Aug 13 2017, 20:06 PM 

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So these changes have been in the works for a while now and they just got around to being pushed out. They have been uploaded to the server, but still may require a full reset cycle to take effect.

Testing feedback is appreciated, and chaos spittle removal rage as well.

Shapechange

-Red Dragon now a Fang Dragon melee oriented form.
-Balor now a Janni, a multi elemental damage dealer form.
-Iron Golem is the same, still a tank form.
-Death Slaad had minor changes, now is ranged using acid spit. Acid fog and breath added as abilities. Chaos spittle was removed.
-Fire Giant had minor changes. A Heavy maul and cleric healing spells added.
-Epic Transmutation now adds +6 to Str Con and Dex to all forms across the line.

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Gravemaskin
 
PostPosted: Sun, Aug 13 2017, 20:29 PM 

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Acid fog has no reflex and since it's spammable, it's just as effective at clearing out certain epic bosses. If you stack it enough, you'll likely end up with more dps than the chaos spittle after a short "warm up" period to reach the cap on how many you can have out before they start disappearing. Only change there is time to kill, unless 10-20/- acid resistance was added to compensate. I'm assuming here that the intent was to make the form less of a boss smasher and more utilitarian, which it partially does but acid fog is still very potent against certain bosses.

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Last edited by Gravemaskin on Mon, Aug 14 2017, 22:19 PM, edited 1 time in total.

 
      
Maverick00053
 
PostPosted: Sun, Aug 13 2017, 20:35 PM 

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We will wait and see how it plays out.

Another update is coming here shortly. Fixing an issue with epic trans forms being flipped with the normal ones.

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Rigela
 
PostPosted: Sun, Aug 13 2017, 20:39 PM 

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From a brief look/test...

Acid fog was making me roll fort saves, when running in my own cloud of it at least.

The Janni didn't seem able to use its flame weapon ability on it self (not sure if intentional or not, though)

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Gravemaskin
 
PostPosted: Sun, Aug 13 2017, 20:55 PM 

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Rigela wrote:
Acid fog was making me roll fort saves, when running in my own cloud of it at least.

Yeah it's for the slow effect, my point was just that the damage has no rolls and thus is only really prevented with acid resist or immunity, and it's why I know a few that's been using to hunt bosses already, though at a far slower pace than some builds and as a way for low damage/ab builds to deal consistent midrange damage that can ramp up to pretty high over time.

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LunarBloom
 
PostPosted: Sun, Aug 13 2017, 20:58 PM 

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The spell has never rolled against saves for damage. Only for the slow.

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Dark Immolation
 
PostPosted: Sun, Aug 13 2017, 22:10 PM 

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Really glad to see the effort being made here guys. Changing the forms to more lore-neutral things opens up a lot of avenues for people without them getting delayed shapechangers and stuff. Still in the process of testing out the actual forms.

I noticed something when testing the forms in general. Terra's fix for spellslots doesn't seem to be working for spontaneous casters. Can anyone else confirm this, either as a wizard that it still does work for you, or as a sorc that it doesn't?

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freaxxshow1338
 
PostPosted: Sun, Aug 13 2017, 22:14 PM 

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Uhm...

Can't you spam most of the spells those forms have Maximised one way or another? Like Cleric with Dragon Domain for Maximise Flame Leash (or strike, dunno) on Fire Giant form?

... Spamming powerful spells is pretty broken anyways, I think...

Just my two cents.

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Commie
 
PostPosted: Sun, Aug 13 2017, 22:15 PM 

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Can you put maximized spells in your bar and haste spam infinite maximized acid fogs?

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Maverick00053
 
PostPosted: Sun, Aug 13 2017, 22:21 PM 

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Hopefully soon here we are going to fully disable meta magic from all forms. When/if that goes in then we will see how some of these really bad offenders stack up.

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Commie
 
PostPosted: Sun, Aug 13 2017, 22:22 PM 

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So its legal for now?

When I get home I'll compare dragon shape the feat to the spell.

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LunarBloom
 
PostPosted: Sun, Aug 13 2017, 22:43 PM 

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Dark Immolation wrote:
Really glad to see the effort being made here guys. Changing the forms to more lore-neutral things opens up a lot of avenues for people without them getting delayed shapechangers and stuff. Still in the process of testing out the actual forms.

I noticed something when testing the forms in general. Terra's fix for spellslots doesn't seem to be working for spontaneous casters. Can anyone else confirm this, either as a wizard that it still does work for you, or as a sorc that it doesn't?


I tried the forms on my wizard and I kept my spellcasts.

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Commie
 
PostPosted: Mon, Aug 14 2017, 2:14 AM 

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5 attacks non-hasted on my build, swinging at +44 according to the combat log, with each hit a DC40 fort save vs negative energy, and seems to have some kind of damage shield as my combat log was full of me dealing 5 damage to things.

compare to my 'took 5 epic feats' dragon shape, its slightly lower AB, slightly less AC, less HP, but also that dc40 level drain (I think its level drain). But it's also just a spell to get all that.

Feel its too strong unless the idea was to make it slightly worse then dragon shape. I feel with transmuation focus and +6 to all its stats it would just be equal to and in some areas better then the 5 required feat dragon shape build.

also because it uses the 'walks on 4 legs' model it has a baked in speed boost compared to standard dragon shape, which is huge. It's also smaller so it gets hung up on less terrain objects.

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LunarBloom
 
PostPosted: Mon, Aug 14 2017, 2:22 AM 

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The on-hit DC I had was 29. And my attacks didn't get pumped without haste.

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Commie
 
PostPosted: Mon, Aug 14 2017, 2:25 AM 

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mine was saying 40.

is it wisdom based?

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Amarice-Elaraliel
 
PostPosted: Mon, Aug 14 2017, 2:49 AM 

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Metamagics will still be removed from all forms who still have it.

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Gravemaskin
 
PostPosted: Mon, Aug 14 2017, 22:13 PM 

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Amarice-Elaraliel wrote:
Metamagics will still be removed from all forms who still have it.

I think that'll help even out the powerspikes on some forms so that they go from being insanely powerful, to utilitarian and useful in some situations but not every one, which is perfect.

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Amarice-Elaraliel
 
PostPosted: Tue, Aug 15 2017, 0:01 AM 

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So far noticed issues:

1. Fangdragon Model crashes the game, specifically, but not only, when zoomed in.
2. Spells are cast at caster level 1 for Wizards/Sorcerer

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Maverick00053
 
PostPosted: Tue, Aug 15 2017, 17:16 PM 

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Amarice-Elaraliel wrote:
So far noticed issues:

1. Fangdragon Model crashes the game, specifically, but not only, when zoomed in.
2. Spells are cast at caster level 1 for Wizards/Sorcerer


Ill be changing up the dragon then and see if one of the other newer models also causes problems.

Not much I can do about the spells, but since they are unlimited I am not really concerned.

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Amarice-Elaraliel
 
PostPosted: Tue, Aug 15 2017, 17:20 PM 

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Well unlimited 6 damage is not overly helpful XD

Nothing that can be done? It works for shifters though no? And they usually do not have more than 5 - 6 Druid levels. Plus some of the spells are not even Druid spells jet it works for druids but not mages?

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Commie
 
PostPosted: Tue, Aug 15 2017, 17:26 PM 

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Had a fang dragon re-skin on my druid and zooming in crashed me then, wasn't a big deal to me as I had to manually re-skin myself and knew to just not zoom.

Recommend you not use that model. Perhaps the wingless fel-drake or a different base nwn dragon model, like brass or bronze or something rarely seen. Or toss in an alignment check that does brass or prismatic or black.

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Magiros
 
PostPosted: Tue, Aug 15 2017, 20:21 PM 

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Commie wrote:
Or toss in an alignment check that does brass or prismatic or black.


Please no alignment checks. They are just pointless.

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CratzBlade113
 
PostPosted: Tue, Aug 15 2017, 22:41 PM 

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Amarice-Elaraliel wrote:
1. Fangdragon Model crashes the game, specifically, but not only, when zoomed in.


My game crashed simply when unpolymorphing from the dragon.

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Maverick00053
 
PostPosted: Tue, Aug 15 2017, 22:45 PM 

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Ill get it fixed asap.

Also ill see what I can do about the spells. I might be able to change them out for monster abilities instead since those scale differently. Worst case you are stuck with level 1 spells.

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Zaldra5
 
PostPosted: Wed, Aug 16 2017, 0:19 AM 

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For the basis of testing this is my elf wizard (24 wizard/ 1 rogue/ 1 ranger) so just a four levels off of max.

Fire giant New* Old
Str 30 30
Dex 18 30
Con 22 21

It lost its great sword that did 2d10+10 for a Heavy flail that is +4 1d10+10 +2d6 fire damage
It lost its Throw rock for Inflict and cure serious wounds which casts at a first level spell also has flame strike that also casts at first level.

At my current level of 26 it has the AB of +26 unbuffed, when fully buffed it goes up by +2.
Its unbuffed AC is 31, which is much lower now then the original form


Balor/ Janni New* Old
Str 36 24
Dex 20 30
Con 22 24

The Janni has a lot of unknown factors, its lost its on hit fear from what the balor had, the character record says its attack is unarmed for 1d3+13 but clearly does more damage along with some elemental damage(unknown how much) It has the unbuffed AB of+25 and AC of 33. It has a flame weapon that casts as a level 1 spell which doesn't work on its self.

Golem New* Old
Str 30 30
Dex 10 20
Con 20 20

Still has its poison breath, which I have never seen it do a thing in my testing. Its the lowest AB at +22 and the lowest AC at 30 out of them all

Slaad New* Old
Str 30 24
Dex 30 36
Con 24 24

Okay a lot has changed here, its weapon of a sling that does 1d4+10 with acid bullets that add 1d6 damage this replaces its old two claws that did 3d6+7 and a bite that did 2d10+7. The biggest issue with the change is it lacks anything to make it good at range namely point blanket shot meaning the AI will do what it normally does and just rush you around everything else and you will be at a -4 on a low AB. It has the unbuffed AB of +26 and AC of 37. The spells cast as a level 1 acid fog and Mestil's acid breath, the breath will do about 6 damage at most. With out the spells working this form will just get you killed as you flail and hit nothing.

*they're are the stats as they are while I tested it, I have the epic transmutation spell focus but it wasn't working but it gave me a look at how they were with out the buff

Dragon New Old
Str 42 36
Dex 26 30
Con 32 21

At the moment the least tested of all of them due to the crash when unshifting. From what I have seen it has a dc 29 drain (I assume con due to that is what it has in pnp). Its the only one where the epic transmutation focus works with. Will need to test more once they figure out a new model to use for it.


So I did my the majority of my testing in the Duegar, seeing it was my level and the sort of zone a level 9 spell should be used around. I feel they suffer from issues of other shapeshifting from before, its just the base game stats pushed into Amia's power level, the reduction on dex lowers the ac of a lot of them and to be honest they were already behind.

Fully buffed by on my abjurator only increased the AB by +2 leaving them low like high twenties making them almost unusable in the content you should be using a level 9 spell in.

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Commie
 
PostPosted: Wed, Aug 16 2017, 1:46 AM 

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Magiros wrote:
Commie wrote:
Or toss in an alignment check that does brass or prismatic or black.


Please no alignment checks. They are just pointless.


Dragon knight uses them, don't see why Shapechange wouldn't.

There's also an unused sever script that allows you to manually customize your dragon shape forms, allowing you to change the 'red' into a 'gold' (or any other type into any other type) and get the different breaths/immunities and everything, that was available for a day and then removed. It could be dusted off and used here. The item was a book so throw it in the epic drop pool.

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Dunecat
 
PostPosted: Sat, Aug 19 2017, 22:24 PM 

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Shapechange spell has no alignment restrictions.

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Commie
 
PostPosted: Sun, Aug 20 2017, 2:00 AM 

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Dunecat wrote:
Shapechange spell has no alignment restrictions.


Didn't say it did.

But Dragon Knight uses a 3 dragon system based on alignment, why not polymorph too?

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Dunecat
 
PostPosted: Sun, Aug 20 2017, 10:39 AM 

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I don't believe that case of DK is something to aspire to. Having a choice, for example, via "Rest" menu, would be far superior in that case, as would be in possible future improvement of Shapechange spell, instead of limiting options through alignment check.

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Amarice-Elaraliel
 
PostPosted: Sun, Aug 20 2017, 10:59 AM 

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I agree with Dunecat there. If investing in making two shapes then I would see a choice rang far superior over an automated metagamey alignment check.

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Maverick00053
 
PostPosted: Sun, Aug 20 2017, 21:24 PM 

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Maverick00053 wrote:
5.16f

General - Shapechange

  • Janni - Resists changed from fire to cold, granted invisibility spell, and given a weapon to better fit the mele warrior theme.
  • Fang - Has been changed into a Rust. Fang skin was causing massive crashing among most people.
  • Dead Slaad - Given point blank shot, and rapid shot. Abilities changed to acid cone, and slow bolt.
  • Fire Giant - Abilities revamped. Lesser body adjustment, inflict wounds ray, and throw rock.
  • Epic Transmutation - Error was causing the epic transmutation forms to be flipped with the normal forms. This bug has been fixed.



You will need to wait for the servers to reset.

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bobofwestoregonusa
 
PostPosted: Tue, Aug 22 2017, 17:34 PM 

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Amarice-Elaraliel wrote:
I agree with Dunecat there. If investing in making two shapes then I would see a choice rang far superior over an automated metagamey alignment check.


In the case of dragon knight it only works because it's an epic spell that summons something as significant as a dragon and has serious value in pvp. If you're willing to whip out the big guns prepare to have your alignment known I say. But shape change isn't an epic spell.

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bobofwestoregonusa
 
PostPosted: Tue, Aug 22 2017, 18:41 PM 

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I can honestly say as of right now that I think shapechange offers some very interesting new options for spellswords while also having some very interesting other options as well. It's not a pvp spell but it never should be really. Good work as far as I'm concerned.

Some recommendations:

  • Make the fire giant's heal better if it's only a self heal anyway. As it is the spell is only currently Cure Light Wounds
  • For the coolness factor give dragons back their breath weapon (although it may be wise to drop it down one dice category of damage since I was able to regularly do 120 damage with it as a CL 26 wizard). Nothing was quite as cool as roasting entire spawns in shape change.
  • The Iron Golem needs love. It has no DR, no DI, and no AC. It's ab is abysmally low and it has no elemental immunities. All of these things could be bumped up in order to make the iron golem a more serious tank, because in its current state I think the dragon fills that role. But you could just not mess with the golem at all if you wanted since all of the other shapes are generally pretty fun as is.

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Amarice-Elaraliel
 
PostPosted: Tue, Aug 22 2017, 18:43 PM 

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Yea the golem is a bit on the lackluster side atm. Could make it a different golem and give it some elemental resist or some DR and AC.

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Magiros
 
PostPosted: Tue, Aug 22 2017, 18:45 PM 

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Seconding the breath weapon on dragon. Just dislike the fact that if I join a group that I have to be buffer and not be able to do much. At least the breath weapon gave decent damage output to do something than just stand back and wait melee do the work and just cast occassional mass haste.

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bobofwestoregonusa
 
PostPosted: Tue, Aug 22 2017, 19:16 PM 

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The slaad acid cone is currently pretty decent at the moment and in djinn you have reasonable ab even as a pure caster. You're far from doing nothing.

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bobofwestoregonusa
 
PostPosted: Tue, Aug 22 2017, 19:20 PM 

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Amarice-Elaraliel wrote:
Yea the golem is a bit on the lackluster side atm. Could make it a different golem and give it some elemental resist or some DR and AC.


You could probably keep it as an iron golem if you gave the shape a decent creature hide and gave the hide something with DR /+5 or +6 and some damage immunity. Then you could toss a slam attack on it and it would also pierce damage reduction up to +5 or +6 because of how creature hides work, but it would still have the same low ab because creature hides don't increase AB.

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Magiros
 
PostPosted: Tue, Aug 22 2017, 19:42 PM 

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bobofwestoregonusa wrote:
The slaad acid cone is currently pretty decent at the moment and in djinn you have reasonable ab even as a pure caster. You're far from doing nothing.


In my opinion depends entirely on your build. I never said far from doing nothing, I do offer buffs and mass haste. However, having few offensive spells is useless. Massing them, no much point either due to having to rest rather soon. The breath attack, or the Slaad offered a useful support. I dont care if it 120 dmg, which was nice but I undertand it needs to be toned down. Personally, I would have welcomed toning down more than a change of the main utility of the shape. I just dont consider the spells currently had that useful, especially at epics or events when opponents are pretty immune to most things. I am sure it took great amount of time to make, while they are interesting changes, I had prefered the old utility of the shapes instead of the new ones. Well, the Giant was useless in my view and now it is a bit interesting though if the heal is as weak it is, it is just too time consuming for real utility to me. The golem I had no much use either and still wont really, sure nice crit/sneak immunity but other than that.. Simply boring as a form for me. In addition, I just dont see how an arcane caster suddenly has access to divine spells, such as healing spells when it has been rather impossible to request in past and current for mages based on the said divide between realm of Art and Power.

Personal preferences really, I am not saying they are useless, but I dont see them as useful as before, even the same form with less damage would had been better in my opinion. Anyhow, dont see any changes happening in that regards so I am stuck with the form.

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Maverick00053
 
PostPosted: Tue, Aug 22 2017, 19:55 PM 

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The idea behind the dragon was to make it a neutralish dragon so requesting skinchangers could be easier so it better fits the mold of any dragon. Since I dropped the breath it should be one of the meanest mele forms out of all of them as a result. It's stats and hide are overall better than the rest of the forms, but trades the abilities as a result. Ill take another look though.

Alas, spells on forms do not scale the same way they do for shifter/druid forms. So if I toss a spell onto a form that is a non druid/shifter it will always be level 1. I got around this by using monster abilities which scale off of HD. I can't really make further adjustments to the monster abilities without redesigning them from the ground up. So the giant heal is stuck being what it currently is, since the only other monster heal ability is god-tier and I rather not let that loose.

I will take a look at the golem. I didn't touch the golem too much because it was originally the best form out of the originals for a lot of things. It still has a ton of its immunities, but I believe it does lack any hard DR. Ill tweak with the numbers.

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Darkblade
 
PostPosted: Wed, Aug 23 2017, 0:39 AM 

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The Jani has allot of potential and if its staying in the current form i can see ppl making builds around it using the lvl 9 shapechange scrolls
Liking all the changes so far really

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DukeDublin
 
PostPosted: Sat, Oct 28 2017, 0:56 AM 

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Shapechange feels balanced around UMD instead of the Wizards/Sorcerers the spell belongs to.

-Dragon further revolves around BaB, the lowest stat for Wizards/Sorcerers
-Janni has Hide/MS skills that make it much better for Shadow Dancers with HiPS
-Iron Golem is the most mage-like of the forms, durability without much else
-Sladd now has Acid Cone/Fog with a sling, shorter range than Chaos Spittle and BaB requirements once again
-Fire Giant is closer to being Polymorph in power than it is Shapechange.

An odd choice of direction for the new designs imo, if any of this explictly benefits a wizard/sorcerer more than a fighter with a scroll I'm not seeing it.

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Maverick00053
 
PostPosted: Sat, Oct 28 2017, 2:29 AM 

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Suggestions then? Fundamental game mechanics like BAB are just something I can't change so your point would be pretty moot for any form that I made that wasn't just another caster form.

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PostPosted: Sat, Oct 28 2017, 3:36 AM 

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If we're trying to make it more distinguishable between an incredibly powerful spellcaster shaping the most potent of magics and a guy who can read a scroll then perhaps the shapechange spell might also check for the characters sorc/wizard/druid(it is a druid spell too!) levels and provide some kind of bonus based off of them, similar to Tensers. Could give temp hp or ab or other properties based on how many spellcaster levels it detects. That would differentiate between a warrior using it and a spellcaster using it.


 
      
DukeDublin
 
PostPosted: Sat, Oct 28 2017, 19:25 PM 

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Shapechange is best used as a form of utility. AB bonuses (even with reduced attacks per round) may help reduce the mechanical margin between mages and UMD, but how many bonuses or spell-like abilities can we lend before the choice to shapechange becomes redundant? Once a mage shapechanges they accept a set of limitations while trading out the limitiations mages tend to have. When the spell shapechange is in the hands of a Fighter it makes sence that they are better with them. Shapechange it isn't about spellcasting, it tends to be about hitting things or being hit.

Both a Fighter and a Mage can use the ninth level spell, that equality forces the forms to be balanced around UMD.

A fighter could still benefit from changing their shape even if they suffered penalties to the act of maintaining the form.
But I don't see nerfing/buffing the stats of the shapes to be fair play towards either type of character.
A fighter should be rewarded for using UMD successfully.

I'm not informed on what is possible with the engine, but heres a few things that could make a mage feel like they have more control over magic than a fighter:
-Concentration Checks to maintain duration
-Concentration Checks when hit (debuffs or outright loss of form)
-UMD/Spellcraft check on casting from the scroll (modified duration, buffs/debuffs, casting failure)

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PassionateShadow
 
PostPosted: Sat, Oct 28 2017, 21:09 PM 

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Suggestion- make an item like a book or something or a spell with a various large set of things a shape change can change in to and just let players pick.


That way you can keep the old shapes and the new shapes and people can use w/e they want.

Make metallic available pls pls pls pls

But I'm biased and made a wizard character to become a dragon and had intended on getting it re skinned to gold.

None of the new shapes fit the niche I built the character for- but I know others like the new shapes.


Shape change is a strong spell and a versatile one. why not do that here too?

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Mushidoz
 
PostPosted: Sat, Oct 28 2017, 21:26 PM 

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DukeDublin wrote:
A fighter should be rewarded for using UMD successfully.


Why?

Is UMD not good enough even just for wearing things that aren't limited to your class/classes only?
Is UMD really that much of a skill point sacrifice?
Is UMD super hard to use?
Is picking 1 level of bard / rogue so crippling to a character, knowing it also most likely served as a tumble dump class?

Just remove the shapechange scrolls / items and your problem's solved. Really though, if fighters use those scrolls to be stronger than they are without them, I say the problem perhaps isn't with UMD and scrolls, but more with the spell itself.. (I won't say it's broken as it is now, or the old one was, however, as I don't know the spell at all other than use it for RP :))

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PassionateShadow
 
PostPosted: Sat, Oct 28 2017, 21:36 PM 

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Because not every one will take umd some might take another skill like spot or listen. Some time builds don't have enough skill points to go in to everything so yes. It's an investment for some.

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Mushidoz
 
PostPosted: Sat, Oct 28 2017, 21:42 PM 

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PassionateShadow wrote:
It's an investment for some.


Except the "investment" of 20 or so skill points here allows them to wear every single item in the game without worrying about alignment restriction. It also allows them to cast pretty much every single spell in the game (or at the very least those that actually matter), be it from a scroll or a wand, or whatever. Meanwhile, bluff, persuade, and intimidate exist..

I am the proud owner of a character with UMD, and if someone blocks me the right to use scrolls, I would still be pretty happy with my skill investment.. and believe me, I don't have that much skill points either. And we're talking ONE spell here, ONE spell that should normally give no benefit to a fighting character, as that is a spell intended for casters to cheat their way of playing and become decent at doing what others are meant to do better than them.

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PassionateShadow
 
PostPosted: Sat, Oct 28 2017, 22:11 PM 

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You still have to go through the trouble of inquiring said items in game.

UMD is use magical device (Item). Scrolls are devices (items)... that are magic.

It's part of what it's for.

You might be okay with it but if some one does that then it makes a lot of my own personal builds useless for their intent and I grantee you you will never hear the end of it form me if that was ever ham stiltedly changed. With the dwindling community this is an arbitrary change trying to force 'roleplay'. Forcing 'roleplay' is never good.
No one forces you to take Bluff or Persuade as well as no one forces you to take UMD.

Part of what makes Rogues and bards so 'handy' is that they can be versatile and 'borrow' small things like scrolls and be able to use them. It's it's own sect of roleplay in and of it's self. They are the ones who when in a small group are able to solve those problems where the group may need a mage but has only a rogue, whom had the fore sight to repair. Rogues and fighters cant just cast magic out of thin air they need an item to do so and that's also gold investment or time investment for some.

Mages are pretty damn strong here. Part of what makes mages awesome is they can you know... scribe scrolls and sell them to people... You would make it useless for them to do that here... Arbitrarily.

Also- Your argument detracts from this discussion and belongs in a different thread.

This is a discussion for Shape change not 'Balance' on the mechanics of what you personally feel should be bared for 'roleplay'.


As far as it goes I still think an item to make a wide variety of shapes avaiable to mages should be made.

Perhaps scroll only have the basic standard 4or 5 shapes any non mages can choose from to give mages a clear advantage of being a mage?

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Maverick00053
 
PostPosted: Sat, Oct 28 2017, 22:44 PM 

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A mele focused non mage character will almost always be better outside of polymorph than inside it. So for now I think it isn't worth putting that much work into a single spell. Shapechange is much better now than it was, and I am fine with that. If we need to tweak some stats that is doable and easy otherwise any further BIG changes will not be a priority.

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