AMIA ARCHIVE • View topic

The Little Dragon wrote:

Why not let everything out to the general public, like a job board, then let those who want to work on it take it and fix it.

I am afraid this would cause more work than it would help.

It would mean someone needs to extra the area and send it to the volunteer. They need to try and fix it. Being entirely unfamiliar with the module that is Amia it would mean when it is sent back it would need to be completely checked and then implented, if it is okay.

Hence why it is important that devs work for the server more than one project, so they get familiar with the module and how things need to be done there that it actually is of any help.

We cannot lax on those standards either, because the results can be and would be fatal. We (or actually especially Faded and Sheeler) had to spent 'months' in fixing the server when it kept crashing every 5 minutes because things got in in a way they shouldn't have been.

So afraid this is not an option to "lower the standards" here.

Amarice-Elaraliel wrote:

The Little Dragon wrote:

Why not let everything out to the general public, like a job board, then let those who want to work on it take it and fix it.

I am afraid this would cause more work than it would help.

It would mean someone needs to extra the area and send it to the volunteer. They need to try and fix it. Being entirely unfamiliar with the module that is Amia it would mean when it is sent back it would need to be completely checked and then implented, if it is okay.

Hence why it is important that devs work for the server more than one project, so they get familiar with the module and how things need to be done there that it actually is of any help.

We cannot lax on those standards either, because the results can be and would be fatal. We (or actually especially Faded and Sheeler) had to spent 'months' in fixing the server when it kept crashing every 5 minutes because things got in in a way they shouldn't have been.

So afraid this is not an option to "lower the standards" here.

What about other things not module bound?

Like?

About any game fixes are module bound.

Alright. So we seem to be in a pickle then. Would it be possible to lower the level of coding needed to handle everything?

It doesn't have anything to do with coding. It has something to do with

1. How complex the module is by now (which cannot be changed)
2. Security

So how exactly is the module too complex?
And how does security factor in?

While I feel, this is kindof a "common sense" answer (at least the second part) I shall reply regardless.

1. Amia has a ton of scripts, that were done by dozens different scripters. This, over the course of 12 years, led to things being a fragile skeleton that is held together by duct tape, at best. People used different scripting styles, not all were awfully "clean" (hence why we do not hand out previously made scripts anymore without overworking/re-checking them first). Amia has a lot of other custom content, some of which the game does not really handle well (certain PLC, certain tileset, models etc.) so we need to ensure those are not in.

Additionally the server this size does not do well with too big areas, or too many PLC in one area, hence why things need to be checked first by the personel that knows what will go and what will not.

Updating amia is a fiddly process hence, where you have to know what you are doing and how all runs and works, else we get a meltdown.

2. I am not sure how anyone could ever think anyone who feels like it uploading to a server who wants to is a good idea. I can list a million of reasons how it is not. I will stick to the most prominent:

- Giving everyone the admin rights would be a security insanity
- People can upload whatever items and OP NPC they want. People can remove whatever they dislike from people/factions/area they dislike-
- From experience, quite a people tend to do a "half assed job". We had plenty of stuff submitted that has flying PLC, not working transitions, not working scripts (like seating), simply poorly made things, etc etc.
- Several people uploading at once would overwrite eachother all the time.

Hence why all that goes in needs to be checked and hence why only the people who know how can update. We had plenty issues in the past already with updates gone wrong which takes ages to fix. See Commies post.

Now, checking every tiny submission takes a lot of time, hence why it makes more sense to join the dev team and learn how to do what by getting jobs assigned and upgrading to what you can do as you progress in knowledge how to do it.

I know that a few Devs, for example, didn't even add their content to the proper file locations, but then tied them into the server from those incorrect locations so they cannot be fixed w/o re-pointing every single instance of every single item in every script/zone/spell/etc.

So you have monsters/scripts/functions from just random folders made by that dev rather then being put into the already existing organized structure and it makes things difficult when working with a project of this size.

I am just gonna say if you want to help then apply to the Dev team. Whining and bitching about it in a thread does nothing to help the server so either apply to the Dev team and come help make the fixes that NEED doing or quit bitching about it. There are far more important things that need to be done for the server at this time.

No_Dice_13 wrote:

I am just gonna say if you want to help then apply to the Dev team. Whining and bitching about it in a thread does nothing to help the server so either apply to the Dev team and come help make the fixes that NEED doing or quit bitching about it. There are far more important things that need to be done for the server at this time.

I would. I've submitted code fixing things needing to be done, multiple times. Never heard back, ever.

I am not talking about telling us what needs to be fixed, you can submit those in the bug report thread and we will add it to the many things that need doing. The Dev team is way understaffed atm so priority for little things is bottom of the list. I am talking about stepping up and applying to the Dev team, showing us you can handle the Toolset so if we think you are gonna be a great help then adding you to the team. These stupid threads about the state of the server don't help anyone and only fill folks with doubt or make them rethink wanting to help because all they are gonna get is bitching from players that shit isn't getting done.

No_Dice_13 wrote:

I am just gonna say if you want to help then apply to the Dev team. Whining and bitching about it in a thread does nothing to help the server so either apply to the Dev team and come help make the fixes that NEED doing or quit bitching about it. There are far more important things that need to be done for the server at this time.

And this is the kind of attitude that will get people to leave aswell, Little Dragon is genuinely interested in helping the server. It is uncalled for calling it whining and bitching. Let us not sow a split between player community and the operating crew. EDIT: For he or she is genuinely discussing and not pointing fingers only.

And what I morely meant with off module jobs are moderating, trying to solve issues in the player base or just do light things to help the server that is not scripting and building.

Oh! Can I be the Player Mediator Moderator? You give me DCs, and I'll get your nemesis off your ass.

No_Dice_13 wrote:

I am not talking about telling us what needs to be fixed, you can submit those in the bug report thread and we will add it to the many things that need doing. The Dev team is way understaffed atm so priority for little things is bottom of the list. I am talking about stepping up and applying to the Dev team, showing us you can handle the Toolset so if we think you are gonna be a great help then adding you to the team. These stupid threads about the state of the server don't help anyone and only fill folks with doubt or make them rethink wanting to help because all they are gonna get is bitching from players that shit isn't getting done.

I did submit actual work. Actual code. More then once. Dec 18th 2016 according to the date.

Never got feedback. Was it wrong? It worked fine on my machine. The stuff it fixed is still not fixed though.

Please do not say I didn't try. I literally do not know what else to do to help you guys.

You did not apply as a dev though, to my knowledge. I never saw an application. As stated before, we do not simply add codes sent by someone who isn't a dev or interested in becoming one.

No idea who you sent it to either, first time I hear of it.

Budly wrote:

No_Dice_13 wrote:

I am just gonna say if you want to help then apply to the Dev team. Whining and bitching about it in a thread does nothing to help the server so either apply to the Dev team and come help make the fixes that NEED doing or quit bitching about it. There are far more important things that need to be done for the server at this time.

And this is the kind of attitude that will get people to leave aswell, Little Dragon is genuinely interested in helping the server. It is uncalled for calling it whining and bitching. Let us not sow a split between player community and the operating crew. EDIT: For he or she is genuinely discussing and not pointing fingers only.

And what I morely meant with off module jobs are moderating, trying to solve issues in the player base or just do light things to help the server that is not scripting and building.

And again if you want to help the server then apply to be a Dev, All these threads do is start unwanted comments from people and doesn't exactly inspire those that are working to make the server better. Both the Dev team and DM team spend a lot of OUR time to make things more enjoyable for everyone. If you have ideas and want to help apply to the Dev team or send us a PM with ideas so we can review them, not start a post about to invite unwanted comments from others.

Amarice-Elaraliel wrote:

You did not apply as a dev though, to my knowledge. I never saw an application. As stated before, we do not simply add codes sent by someone who isn't a dev or interested in becoming one.

No idea who you sent it to either, first time I hear of it.

I posted it publicly in the thread about the issue. It has 60ish views despite being unlisted so some people saw the code at least.

Oh well.

No_Dice_13 wrote:

I am just gonna say if you want to help then apply to the Dev team. Whining and bitching about it in a thread does nothing to help the server so either apply to the Dev team and come help make the fixes that NEED doing or quit bitching about it. There are far more important things that need to be done for the server at this time.

I'll say again, in only allowing people that are fully on the Dev team to do anything that's currently considered "dev work" because they can't be on call all the time, we are shooting ourselves in the foot. Maybe it's whining and bitching on some level, but at least try to understand why people are doing so:

>Offer a "full-time" job.
>Refuse to offer part-time slots, temporary slots, or contract-work, even though some of the work can be done that way.
>Jobs are slow to get done.
>General populace complains.
>Complain back at general populace for not being the workforce you want.
>Repeat

At a certain point, you have to go where the people are. I applaud the "job" initiative, and I hope we can see some more of that stuff soon. Don't you see, some of us -want- to help, but we can't fully commit as much time. If you want people to help, you have to be willing to adapt the ways in which you allow people to help. Especially considering this is all a volunteer effort, DMs, Devs, and players alike. I can't think of any organization that runs with a "if you can't dedicate XX hours a week to helping us, don't even bother volunteering." At least, not one with as small a work pool as we have right now.

Commie, I understand you are passionate about the issue at hand, but please take it to another thread or to private messaging. Let us not derail this thread.

I believe Amia needs restructured. From how I understand it, the server is a ticking time bomb from all the code and we do not have the man power to maintain the current coding effectively while being able to progress as a server.

I personally am not a scriptor, I am a person who delves into the social sciences and understands city planning. I do not believe I would be of help on the dev team at this point. However, I do know there are people out there who are, however, have no desire to play on amia. From what social sciences has taught me, people have different needs and desires, and in a game, that is no different. Amia needs to fill the role of giving for those needs and desires in order for it to survive. Once we fill the needs of the group, then we can win the hearts and minds of more coders.
However, we then have to play into supply and demand. We keep what the people want at this moment while getting rid of what players do not use. If something is not being used, we need to archive it somewhere so that we can pull it out again if it is wanted. The problem I have atm is the situation with the code itself. I would suggest tossing it if it didn't have 12 years of work into it. Therefore, I believe an effort would need to go into sorting and separating the code so it isn't a cluster fuck mess.
As for gaining new members, I would suggest having a feifdom system set in place where a dm takes over a settlement and the surrounding land, which could then be given to players once they start forming their own groups. The reason I suggest this is because Amia is heavily dm oriented and actually if an efficient way of dming was set up, we could then perhaps not need some of the coding that is within the server. One problem would be the immensity of the server and the small ammount of player base we have to cater to. This would then create dead zones with settlements such as wharftown and goulderand, along with most, if not all, of Amia B.

No_Dice_13 wrote:

Budly wrote:

No_Dice_13 wrote:

I am just gonna say if you want to help then apply to the Dev team. Whining and bitching about it in a thread does nothing to help the server so either apply to the Dev team and come help make the fixes that NEED doing or quit bitching about it. There are far more important things that need to be done for the server at this time.

And this is the kind of attitude that will get people to leave aswell, Little Dragon is genuinely interested in helping the server. It is uncalled for calling it whining and bitching. Let us not sow a split between player community and the operating crew. EDIT: For he or she is genuinely discussing and not pointing fingers only.

And what I morely meant with off module jobs are moderating, trying to solve issues in the player base or just do light things to help the server that is not scripting and building.

And again if you want to help the server then apply to be a Dev, All these threads do is start unwanted comments from people and doesn't exactly inspire those that are working to make the server better. Both the Dev team and DM team spend a lot of OUR time to make things more enjoyable for everyone. If you have ideas and want to help apply to the Dev team or send us a PM with ideas so we can review them, not start a post about to invite unwanted comments from others.

I don't do scripting and coding. I said over and over, I can help with other things. Mediating and looking over things or whatever else that do not take scripting and building. But I dont do scripting and building cause it simply is not good enough when I do that.

I also brought forward the 15 year anniversary event. The interest was barely there from you folks.

As a dev you do not have to work x hrs a week.

You have proven that you know what you are doing, you get a job assigned or pick a job that is out on the market when you have the time and send it to sheeler or maverick when it's done.

Do the point of "not wanting a full time job" is invalid. It isn't. Only if you never do anything at all over months, and do not even bother to reply, then you get removed until you actually are available to do stuff again.

What if we let players rp things that they have built without them being implimented? we could create a file of sorts for these things in some way, perhaps one in each settlement and group, that holds these things until they are implimented. perhaps this could give some progress while taking off some stress from the Dev team

PLC requests are good for that. Or add more plcs to the stores. Leave some of the much larger or unique things for requests, mind.

The Little Dragon wrote:

What if we let players rp things that they have built without them being implimented? we could create a file of sorts for these things in some way, perhaps one in each settlement and group, that holds these things until they are implimented. perhaps this could give some progress while taking off some stress from the Dev team

This becomes annoying when it runs against the 'no metagaming guards' rules as its impossible to know whats there whats not and whats approved.

It happened in the Shrine prior to the Feldrakes being physically added. "Do I actually have to assume there are just 9 dragons here that I can't see?"

Ah, I see.

Commie wrote:

The Little Dragon wrote:

What if we let players rp things that they have built without them being implimented? we could create a file of sorts for these things in some way, perhaps one in each settlement and group, that holds these things until they are implimented. perhaps this could give some progress while taking off some stress from the Dev team

This becomes annoying when it runs against the 'no metagaming guards' rules as its impossible to know whats there whats not and whats approved.

It happened in the Shrine prior to the Feldrakes being physically added. "Do I actually have to assume there are just 9 dragons here that I can't see?"

Well, that is a water breaker in that it is messy. It is not like the Shrine is empty, as I said before. There is always NPCs in all areas. Even settlement people call dead have things in em. There is probably supposedly NPC Shrine of Eilistraee followers and residents. If not? Well then it's only me on Budly and his daughter Bottled Companion who visits it to keep it up while there is a bunch of Feldrakes glaring at passer bys.

Invisible NPC's that you can't 'metagame' around are a bad way to go. It's suffocating RP wise when you're told OOC you can/cant do things due to people you can't see.

When the dragons went in I had an Eilistraeen telling me via tells I wasn't even allowed to 'sneak' in as the feldrakes would have bioware true sight and were ic instructed to watch for sneaks. When I rightfully ignored this and went in anyway people got pissy and logged.

It's a really bad thing to do.

Commie wrote:

Invisible NPC's that you can't 'metagame' around are a bad way to go. It's suffocating RP wise when you're told OOC you can/cant do things due to people you can't see.

When the dragons went in I had an Eilistraeen telling me via tells I wasn't even allowed to 'sneak' in as the feldrakes would have bioware true sight and were ic instructed to watch for sneaks. When I rightfully ignored this and went in anyway people got pissy and logged.

It's a really bad thing to do.

It is not our fault they where not implemented yet. This is not a shrine to some softy pacifist but to Eilistraee, Swift violence and such.

Quote:

Commie wrote:
Invisible NPC's that you can't 'metagame' around are a bad way to go. It's suffocating RP wise when you're told OOC you can/cant do things due to people you can't see.

When the dragons went in I had an Eilistraeen telling me via tells I wasn't even allowed to 'sneak' in as the feldrakes would have bioware true sight and were ic instructed to watch for sneaks. When I rightfully ignored this and went in anyway people got pissy and logged.

It's a really bad thing to do.

This.. sometimes I feel like there needs to be signs in each area telling you what is there and what isn't... so much has to be imagined that it is stifling, as Commie said. Though personally, I feel the Feldrake concept is way overdone, all over Amia where it exists. I just never understood why Amians let dragons take over their security in so many places, and acted like their slaves to build homes for them.

I'm with DI though... sometimes you have to roll with the times, something has to change. I don't know the right answer, but... keeping everything so tight isn't working. Perhaps someone can offer a class or three for the players to learn to be a Developer? Or a DM? Then, you get qualified people trained by the current staff, rather than... hoping someone knows what they're doing.

That Guy wrote:

Quote:

Commie wrote:
Invisible NPC's that you can't 'metagame' around are a bad way to go. It's suffocating RP wise when you're told OOC you can/cant do things due to people you can't see.

When the dragons went in I had an Eilistraeen telling me via tells I wasn't even allowed to 'sneak' in as the feldrakes would have bioware true sight and were ic instructed to watch for sneaks. When I rightfully ignored this and went in anyway people got pissy and logged.

It's a really bad thing to do.

This.. sometimes I feel like there needs to be signs in each area telling you what is there and what isn't... so much has to be imagined that it is stifling, as Commie said. Though personally, I feel the Feldrake concept is way overdone, all over Amia where it exists. I just never understood why Amians let dragons take over their security in so many places, and acted like their slaves to build homes for them.

I'm with DI though... sometimes you have to roll with the times, something has to change. I don't know the right answer, but... keeping everything so tight isn't working. Perhaps someone can offer a class or three for the players to learn to be a Developer? Or a DM? Then, you get qualified people trained by the current staff, rather than... hoping someone knows what they're doing.

I genuinely want to help, feldrakes or not. That topic can be put aside for this one. I want to help, Amia was my first proper RP server I came to so it is very sentimental. It was my road to trying out more servers and RP and met a few friends here I still keep in touch with to this day, 10 years later. Lot of memories and lot of nostalgia. I want to help somehow.

Wouldnt that suggest that a lot of things are overdone then? Perhaps instead we need to tone down the server a bit, make it less about overgod like beings and more about the players themselves. I have noticed a lot of amia is closed off to the public eye, especially governments. Personally, I think cordor needs a republic type set up where players can involve themselves in the government if they want to. I also believe there should be encouragement for players to change the server in some way. perhaps putting signs in all of the npc establishments or some sort of "letting the player know" how he or she can change the world in some small way. for example, we could put in an npc in the library telling people that they can write books and add them to the server, or even information about the history of anything would be welcome.

That Guy wrote:

Quote:

Commie wrote:
Invisible NPC's that you can't 'metagame' around are a bad way to go. It's suffocating RP wise when you're told OOC you can/cant do things due to people you can't see.

When the dragons went in I had an Eilistraeen telling me via tells I wasn't even allowed to 'sneak' in as the feldrakes would have bioware true sight and were ic instructed to watch for sneaks. When I rightfully ignored this and went in anyway people got pissy and logged.

It's a really bad thing to do.

This.. sometimes I feel like there needs to be signs in each area telling you what is there and what isn't... so much has to be imagined that it is stifling, as Commie said. Though personally, I feel the Feldrake concept is way overdone, all over Amia where it exists. I just never understood why Amians let dragons take over their security in so many places, and acted like their slaves to build homes for them.

Not that it pertains to this topic but...

Before I became a DM/Admin/etc I got approval to play the Spiked Felldrake Levexal. Felldrakes and Elves are heavily interconnected and allies because Bahamut created them to help protect elves. Though a lot of work and player involvement with in Winya we were able to bring another clan of Felldrakes over with Levexal being the middleman of sorts.

Winya has Felldrakes, and they deploy them when allies and/or interests are under threat. Winya in the end is just like any city that strives to protect the lives of its people and allies so they are going to use them. No Felldrakes have ever been moved somewhere without permission from the owners, and the approval of the Felldrake's leaderships.

Anyway.

I will speak with Sheeler and see if we can produce some sort guide for what we expect in area design, etc. In the end though the initiative has to be taken by the player. No class is going to make you good at area design. It is going to take time, practice and self motivation on your own to open up toolset and fiddle around.

I could write essays on why Amia is where it is, but I have in the past, and it's fallen on deaf ears.

I'll be short then: Amia's a failed project, it had wings when it was a big server with a robust and active DM team, but today it's founding principle of a DM pushed high quality storyline is a long lost dream. This server is """""living""""" (see life support) in the shadow of giants, one of which is it's own former self. It can never return to it's own image of days gone by.

Here's the other giant:
http://imgur.com/a/Vd7F7

Amia was born out of Arelith, and it was a split made on the idea of DM facilitated RP, whereas Arelith pushed for player facilitated RP. They ran with this idea, and today their work and decision shows in spades. Players have power there, and that's really what RPers want, their own power to do things. They don't sit around for a DM, they just use the ingame systems that their server built for them to allow them to play without ever asking someone for help unless it was IC.

Pack it in folks, game's over.

Palin489 wrote:

I could write essays on why Amia is where it is, but I have in the past, and it's fallen on deaf ears.

I'll be short then: Amia's a failed project, it had wings when it was a big server with a robust and active DM team, but today it's founding principle of a DM pushed high quality storyline is a long lost dream. This server is living in the shadow of giants, one of which is it's own former self. It can never return to it's own image of days gone by.

Here's the other giant:
http://imgur.com/a/Vd7F7

Amia was born out of Arelith, and it was a split made on the idea of DM facilitated RP, whereas Arelith pushed for player facilitated RP. They ran with this idea, and today their work and decision shows in spades. Players have power there, and that's really what RPers want, their own power to do things. They don't sit around for a DM, they just use the ingame systems that their server built for them to allow them to play without ever asking someone for help unless it was IC.

Pack it in folks, game's over.

I do not think a server can live without DM's. Players have 0 power to do anything beside pety skibbles, fighting over scraps that has no meaning for the server in the long run. Without a DM? You can do nothing. And until I see a server that works without it, that have meaningful, server impacting roleplaying without DM's having to pull the strings, I will keep that in mind. I been on plenty of servers, two big servers among them for a extended time, Amia and POTM. Neither seemingly had any meaningful prolonged faction RP without DM's, a faction without DM support is doomed to die or become a glorified hub for a bunch of friendly players who play together and do dungeons.

Lets say I on Budly, become elected mayor. How am I supposed to do anything without a DM? I want to build a garden behind the Office. To not have to put out the placeables every god damn reset I would need a DM and a dev to help me set it up permanently in the module. That is impossible on my own and it is a immersive breaker to always have to place them out even if it's meant as a permanent garden. Any meaningful RP for plot progression needs a DM supervising it. Blowing up a wall? You cannot do that without a DM. Fighting another faction in a big battle? Could probably do that to but as soon as NPCs need to be involved, need a DM. Want to extend the faction base or even get a permanent one? Need a DM. Need to find documents for something? Need a DM.

When you start to do things without a DM, like blowing up these walls or getting the hand of very particular books or what else, you are starting to go into territory of metagaming or even getting into a OOC mess where to factions start to proclaim different things "No we won the battle of Ultrinnan, no we did".

I do not think players have the needed tools to do this and will never have, you cannot blow up a wall or do anything that is server echoing if it contains the bigger scale of things or similar. You create a blockade on the road? After reset it is gone without support of Dms and devs.

But Arelith is welcome to show that they can achieve this, but I am pretty confident in saying this, Arelith cannot do that either, Amia can't, PoTM can't, no server can today to this. Only server that had total player control was this server that had a concept more of a modern survival game before that was popular, meant to have players create everything from the gear to buildings on to settlements, socities and kingdomgs in the end. From stone age to classic fantasy middle ages and so on.

What I mean to say is, people have restrictions. But Amia could do with more player activity but a DM is needed still to do the bigger projects.

Palin489 wrote:

I could write essays on why Amia is where it is, but I have in the past, and it's fallen on deaf ears.

I'll be short then: Amia's a failed project, it had wings when it was a big server with a robust and active DM team, but today it's founding principle of a DM pushed high quality storyline is a long lost dream. This server is living in the shadow of giants, one of which is it's own former self. It can never return to it's own image of days gone by.

Here's the other giant:
http://imgur.com/a/Vd7F7

Amia was born out of Arelith, and it was a split made on the idea of DM facilitated RP, whereas Arelith pushed for player facilitated RP. They ran with this idea, and today their work and decision shows in spades. Players have power there, and that's really what RPers want, their own power to do things. They don't sit around for a DM, they just use the ingame systems that their server built for them to allow them to play without ever asking someone for help unless it was IC.

Pack it in folks, game's over.

I am not really sure what you wished to fix or do with this post? I am curious why you are still here on the server or at least on the forums if this is your attitude and don't plan to help solve the problem?

Anyway, taking an aspect of that post.

One of Amia's strongest aspects has been its DM activity and I think that has caused problems. People are so use to doing things with a DM that they seem to forget that they are completely capable of doing stuff without DM support every second. Back in 2006 when I started I was apart of a lot of successful factions that never saw an ounce of DM support.

Even today there have been events sparked off purely because of player initiative. I have been told that the recent Malarite attacks were started by a player. I am not saying everything can be done without a DM but a surprising amount of RP can if you get out there.

^

I've been playing here for a long time by now, and have usually followed the philosophy of having my chars do their own thing, instead of relying on others. There's plenty of things you can do that doesn't require direct DM assistance. In the 10 years I've been around here, I've done things that required DM/dev support twice, Once was back when I played Maioth the second in command of the Eternal Order the other was when I played Christian Vipont who took the initiative to form and train the Kohlingen Mage guards.

It's a good feeling that you've helped contribute to something that's "permanently" in the module, certainly but other things can be just as rewarding and given that we don't have the amount of players, devs or DMs that we used to, gravitating towards things that will ultimately require one or both's constant oversight is taking the wrong road imho.

There's already plenty of stuff already in the module that can help facilitate anything from serving as a powerbase to something that generates RP for yourself and others. Don't be afraid to take the initiative with other players and do things on your own, if you're active enough and do enough shenanigans you're going to attract both DMs and players your way.

@Palin If Amia has personally failed you, I am sorry. If other places suit your style more, or there are things you think we can learn from, that is totally understandable. Your opinion is your own and that's totes coolio, bro.

Me?

Imma be here til the fuckin wheels fall off. Until I cant log any more. And then I'll probably make a memorial module and site to invite people to. Amia has provided me and plenty of others with years of enjoyment and that is worth fighting for. And the amount times people have said "this is the end" for Amia is laughable if you've been around here long enough. Maybe we won't ever get back to those nostalgic numbers again, but that's not what Amia is ever was about for me. I dont care if it's a tabletop session of 3 friends or here, the game I love is about community. As long as that community is here, so am I.

If you're tired of fighting, I am sincerely sorry. But the rest of us got work to do.

Dark Immolation wrote:

@Palin If Amia has personally failed you, I am sorry. If other places suit your style more, or there are things you think we can learn from, that is totally understandable. Your opinion is your own and that's totes coolio, bro.

Me?

Imma be here til the fuckin wheels fall off. Until I cant log any more. And then I'll probably make a memorial module and site to invite people to. Amia has provided me and plenty of others with years of enjoyment and that is worth fighting for. And the amount times people have said "this is the end" for Amia is laughable if you've been around here long enough. Maybe we won't ever get back to those nostalgic numbers again, but that's not what Amia is ever was about for me. I dont care if it's a tabletop session of 3 friends or here, the game I love is about community. As long as that community is here, so am I.

If you're tired of fighting, I am sincerely sorry. But the rest of us got work to do.

I can honestly say I used to hate Amia after my ban, I resented it and the people. But eventually I returned, visited at times after I got unbanned. Felt super lost but that old hate was gone. When I got banned on POTM for other things, I understood that a lot of my issues is because of my temper and ease to get irritated. Got back here, it is decent still. I miss a lot of old players but It could be much worse. I gonna stick around to give it a chance, to help it out, try to make good out of it.

Im a bit bad at making RP for others and I think a DM is needed always for anything but the most basic RP. So I am a bit clueless when people go "Make your own events!" which was tossed at me on POTM when I asked for more Euro time DMs. But hey, Amia is like being back home to a house that been a bit derelict but it is my house, standing here on Amia.

Maverick00053 wrote:

One of Amia's strongest aspects has been its DM activity and I think that has caused problems. People are so use to doing things with a DM that they seem to forget that they are completely capable of doing stuff without DM support every second. Back in 2006 when I started I was apart of a lot of successful factions that never saw an ounce of DM support.

Even today there have been events sparked off purely because of player initiative. I have been told that the recent Malarite attacks were started by a player. I am not saying everything can be done without a DM but a surprising amount of RP can if you get out there.

Eventually, however, you get to a point where DM involvement is suddenly introduced, either because an NPC is needed, or other, various reasons. And that's when you get roadblocked.

Recently, we had to wait almost 2 months for the DM's to decide if we had access to a letter, a letter posted on a message board we had IC physical access to and ooc forum access to. It wasn't a DM post, just another players IC post, but we got stalled for a very long time, outright told we could not proceed IC until there was resolution OOC from the DM's.

It's a double-edged sword. One of the worst feelings I've had is working for a very long time at something IC only to be just told "no," and of course "if you don't like my answer, suck it."

Edit; Of course this kind of thing can be changed, but that kind of change in policy can't come from players, it has to be a shift in purpose from the DM team.

Amarice-Elaraliel wrote:

And yes, that has been another big issue noone wants to address. The forum ghouls. The players that just sit her and whine and gripe about things they do not even experience and have not in years because they have not played the game in years and simply for some reason have nothing better to do with their lives, but sit here and gripe and ruin it for everyone who actually still plays.

One thing I loved about Amia is that once upon a time this was seen as a strength of Amian character and popularity. It was like the beautiful part of American ideals- freedom of speech and a community curious as to why there was dissidence. A community that encouraged collaborative OOC discussion on top of the IC. There were always forum ghouls, even back when I joined in 2006/2007, and those were ghouls from the times of Arelith and the split and before that. Without the ghouls, Amia would have become the weirdly mutated brainchild that it is now much quicker.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, the Amia that we currently have is not really what Amia was founded on or what it was meant to be. It's not the same. It's like we had all this beauty and all this ugly but somewhere along the line we put people in power and listened to people who focused on the ugly. I've even become inundated with the ugly before in my attempts to be a more major contributor. When I first joined, the DM Team actively listened to the ugly but actively prioritized the beauty. They focused on players that really were dedicated to IC over OOC, that really were engaged in player-driven initiatives and they had much less shame and internalized phobias about how the playerbase "might react." (Let's be real, though, Amarice- you are right about how there are always complaints.)

However, Palin is correct that Amia was meant to be much more DM-involved than Arelith, and it always was, up until Amia decided to change. Where players started resenting DMs and blaming them for everything, where DMs started resenting players and blaming them back. RP became something that had to be perfectly monitored, perfectly manicured for requests, perfectly integrated into the larger lore schema of the islands. Players turned on each other (and DMs too). Now, because of how the original concept of Amia exploded, those left on Amia also think players should have the power. Amia really is now stunted brainchild of Arelith, but without the functioning mechanisms or the popularity.

Does it make me a forum ghoul to say all this? And to say when I've logged on, even during DM events, the RP has been largely surface-level and/or insufficient for detailed and beautiful storytelling? I'm fairly sure you weren't referring to me specifically, Amarice, but what you said did make me sad because you're basically admitting you've now fallen down the same trap as every Amia DM. Beaten down by the system. You have very little will to change things because it seems as if no one is ever happy with the changes, when in reality, we're just continually treating the symptoms and not the root causes. I wish we had a Team and a player base that had banded together to reform the system back to what it was meant to be and intended to be at some point, even if it was never perfect.

I thought about adding myself to that change more prominently until half the Amia populace turned on me for the suggestion. "Change what?! There's nothing wrong except EVERYONE- but mostly you!" Except it's not everyone. And it's certainly not me. It's everyone's fault it has happened, but it's not everyone's fault that it isn't getting fixed. And it's certainly not my fault it isn't getting fixed, because I have advocated for certain changes for even longer than Commie- even longer than Amarice- even longer than a lot of you. I have stated again and again that we need to reform the DM Team and the structure of how it all is managed, over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and you think this might be too many overs but it's definitely not because I've probably said it even more times.

It's the people who put themselves in the way of change, who force stagnation because they enjoy what they have or the nostalgia of what used to be and fear what may happen, it's these people who are the reason Amia has become dead and lifeless and lacking a storytelling heart. I just think the time is coming (has already come, probably) where it doesn't matter anymore because Amia can't really become MORE dead. Anyways, maybe you all will face death and change to avoid it, but maybe not. Is it possible?

Then again, it is Amia, and that may be what Amia is more known for than for its beautiful creativity. Its infighting. Sad.

#forumghoulout

Yeah, I agree. We need actual reform in policies and practices.

Biggest of all is communication, however, we need more transparency from the top, more clear explanations of whats going on, whats changing, general 'whats coming ups,' and public summon stats.

Because feeling ignored is bad.

I am honestly unsure how posting summon stats fixes the server? Not that I care, personally. But considering that we made the summons as flexible as you can get for everyone and around every character can access almost every summon (with a very tiny restriction of a very tiny selection of planars) it does not really matter? You can just test them all as you level along and pick whatever you like most. And even then if you change your mind, you can just pick another any minute.

Which brings us to the point that "you need a DM for anything". I have said time and time again that this is not true and dozens of people and factions have (often because of their own choice too) gone on Amia without ever needing a DM.

I mean, yeah, sure, if you decide you want to go to a place x that is not actually in the module, you'd need a DM. But that is not different on other servers. If you look at many MMO servers, that simply means it will never happen. Because there is no way to do it. We added really great stuff for that that allows up to upload temporary areas to accomplish that for you. And DMs have been doing that for you.

But aside of that... your character has to, thanks to the dynamic summons, a huge variety of themes you can go with. We have a ton of free to play races. We have pre-setup housing systems you can rent cheap for a day. Or if you found a faction... no you do not need a DM to hold your hand. You want a faction base? Sure it may take a bit of time to get things like that implented, but is it 100% needed? No, we added dynamic housing for that. You can rent your area you can (with some limitations, yes, but still) design as you wish, and you have your own little kingdom there to start your plots.

And yes, you can start your own plots and stuff. Yes, if you want -direct NPC control - you need a DM. But that you need everywhere. There is no game where the NPC are alive own intelligence beings that suddenly can stat talking on their own without pre-set scripts.

That said, the amia model is huge. There's tons to explore. People to train, quests to do (granted, the latter not as many as I personally would love to have).

We have many great tools that allow you to customize your character further, especially with reskins, alter selfs, skinchangers etc etc. Yes, they take a small request, but honest unless you want something crazy like a Terrasque, that request is just a few lines of fluffy RP on a RP server. You need no epic request or story as to why your wizard has a snake familiar or your ranger a ferret companion.

I have played on Amia for a long time without really needing a DM. And for almost the full amount of time I have been a faction leader additionally. The Grove did not even have a DM for over 3 years.

Now naturally, having a DM to help occasionally, to do a personal quest for the character/faction and for the server is cool. That is why we still do that and enjoy doing it. And will keep doing it. But that Amia is unplayable without a DM holding and stroking your hand is not true.

Amarice-Elaraliel wrote:

I am honestly unsure how posting summon stats fixes the server? Not that I care, personally. But considering that we made the summons as flexible as you can get for everyone and around every character can access almost every summon (with a very tiny restriction of a very tiny selection of planars) it does not really matter? You can just test them all as you level along and pick whatever you like most. And even then if you change your mind, you can just pick another any minute.

Blackguard summons are radically different and unless you just make one of the various alignments you might just get stuck with something that doesn't benefit your blackguard build as much as just being a different alignment. Until recently everyone that knew wtf they were doing had the same alignment, and I wondered how many people just got stuck with the garbage ones because there was no way to know. There were and are lots of things like this. It's a noob trap.

The NE can cast spells, some are buffs, why can't we get a list so people know they might not need UMD if they go for a NE BG due to the spells it can cast? Why is it too much to ask to have it publicly posted "oh the LG summon can cast bless weapon infinite times a day and the others cant" and have it be official? What's the problem?

Amarice-Elaraliel wrote:

Which brings us to the point that "you need a DM for anything". I have said time and time again that this is not true and dozens of people and factions have (often because of their own choice too) gone on Amia without ever needing a DM.

It is the case, though. I can't even visit cities w/o a dm floating over my head despite having alter self. You can't 'interact' with the world w/o a DM, its impossible.

Amarice-Elaraliel wrote:

I mean, yeah, sure, if you decide you want to go to a place x that is not actually in the module, you'd need a DM. But that is not different on other servers. If you look at many MMO servers, that simply means it will never happen. Because there is no way to do it. We added really great stuff for that that allows up to upload temporary areas to accomplish that for you. And DMs have been doing that for you.

Well that's the issue, DM's open plots that require you to go to non-module places, then stop running those plots before there can be any resolution.

How would you recommend we proceed on these plot points, without a DM, when some of them being an impending, looming threat over our area and we can't go there because none of the characters exist in module and neither do any of our enemies?

Amarice-Elaraliel wrote:

But aside of that... your character has to, thanks to the dynamic summons, a huge variety of themes you can go with. We have a ton of free to play races. We have pre-setup housing systems you can rent cheap for a day. Or if you found a faction... no you do not need a DM to hold your hand. You want a faction base? Sure it may take a bit of time to get things like that implented, but is it 100% needed? No, we added dynamic housing for that. You can rent your area you can (with some limitations, yes, but still) design as you wish, and you have your own little kingdom there to start your plots.

Yes there is a housing system that's not well used by the player base. The Fort used player housing for a long time.

Amarice-Elaraliel wrote:

And yes, you can start your own plots and stuff. Yes, if you want -direct NPC control - you need a DM. But that you need everywhere. There is no game where the NPC are alive own intelligence beings that suddenly can stat talking on their own without pre-set scripts.

That said, the amia model is huge. There's tons to explore. People to train, quests to do (granted, the latter not as many as I personally would love to have).

Tried. Nothing took off. We generally got far enough where we said 'ok at this point we need a DM to do -thing- so this can continue' and it just didn't happen.

See Gribbo's crystal thing for an example. No DM picked it up so a few months of work was just wasted. Not wasted as in, "we tried to do a thing and it didn't work but at least we tried," but wasted as in "we did a thing for a long while and then no DM was willing to participate or acknowledge any of the work done so it died RIP."

No/little encouragement for PC initiatives, but we have muffin men so at least some plots are being run.

Amarice-Elaraliel wrote:

We have many great tools that allow you to customize your character further, especially with reskins, alter selfs, skinchangers etc etc. Yes, they take a small request, but honest unless you want something crazy like a Terrasque, that request is just a few lines of fluffy RP on a RP server. You need no epic request or story as to why your wizard has a snake familiar or your ranger a ferret companion.

I have played on Amia for a long time without really needing a DM. And for almost the full amount of time I have been a faction leader additionally. The Grove did not even have a DM for over 3 years.

Now naturally, having a DM to help occasionally, to do a personal quest for the character/faction and for the server is cool. That is why we still do that and enjoy doing it. And will keep doing it. But that Amia is unplayable without a DM holding and stroking your hand is not true.

You also have an added benefit of being a DM. As I told Tormak back when he would go playerside, bopping around with him in party was a radically different experience then when it was just me and gribbo. PC's crawled out from every corner to participate in anything we did at all. It was shocking.

You've been a DM so long you don't actually know what it's like being a nobody here. Try making a new account, tell nobody who you are, act IC like you don't know how the server works ("How do I use this portal rod Cordor gave me?") and see how it goes. It might be tricky with less players now but im telling you, bopping around with a DM's PC is crazy different then just being normal. If you go incognito don't even tell the DM's. See how long before you get some DC's or some initiatives.

I'll give you an extra set of CD-Keys if you want to try.

1. You should not base your PC's alignment on a RP server for micromanaging your Summon. That said, I do not care about posting the stats, personally. Though I know it will lead to people complaining about every second stat and arguing it, ignoring that they are all tested and work well, just because they feel it should be different.

2. Well then you did one of two things. You either managed to get yourself banned everywhere there for your own IC actions that came with consequences or you play a monster race that is by default banned from many places and was your own choice and risk to pick.

3. The last plots I know where all finished. Can't speak for the very old, but if DMs dump their shit it is not really the other DM to blame for that. We usually try to catch up those, if we are aware though.

4. (nothing to add here!)

5. Never heard any request for help with the crystal plot. I honestly thought the DM who started it finished it, as I never heard of it again. That we do not want to support player initiatives I strongly disagree with. They are my personal favorite and something I did almost exclusively for a long time. I only picked up on server wide plots again at all because there was an outcry for them, they are no preference of mine.

6. First of, when the grove had no DM for years, I was not a DM. At the start at least, as said, it went on for some years, and then was just a newbie DM for the rest of it. Second of, I do. Every few months, actually.

Regarding #2 ^^^

I agree. Completely. Amarice. It's our fault for doing this that get our character banned from every City on the Island. (Our as in evil chars + my main is with them).

I agree with Commie on a point it stinks too. With a very low playerbase 90% of the characters are good alignment and play in areas certain characters are banned from.

While it is "our" fault ICly wise due to our characters actions have consequences. It still sucks!

I have two evil characters that can stroll in all good cities. Granted, those characters do not talk about baby eating in public or randomly kill people (with it being known) so it is another approach. Both approaches are very valid for evil RP, one just, naturally, comes with heavier consequences.

Yet there are many areas who do not give a rats ass if you are openly evil (which I have too). Wiltun, Ostland, Caraigh, Tarkuul, Cordor (unless you attack the city and citizens itself). From what I have seen unless you cause a lot of shit there, Bendir Dale does not truly care that much either. Pretty much the entirely of Frozenfar.

So that leaves Winya and Kohlingen, as it should be, as by what they represent and stand for.

Wharftown is a bit in and odd place atm, granted.

Amarice-Elaraliel wrote:

1. You should not base your PC's alignment on a RP server for micromanaging your Summon. That said, I do not care about posting the stats, personally. Though I know it will lead to people complaining about every second stat and arguing it, ignoring that they are all tested and work well, just because they feel it should be different.

I feel this would be applicable if they were comparable, and sometimes they aren't, each one serves a totally different role and can be godlike or terrible depending on the blackguards build. If you have access to the spells the NE summon has then you just don't get anything out of him, for example.

Amarice-Elaraliel wrote:

2. Well then you did one of two things. You either managed to get yourself banned everywhere there for your own IC actions that came with consequences or you play a monster race that is by default banned from many places and was your own choice and risk to pick.

Not always, yall just had to reform the ban-rules because of how much the old system was abused. But, again, the point isn't that the bans arn't deserved, the point is that w/o a dm signing off on anything you're doing, you just don't get to interact. I've asked a few times to get permission to go into a city to kill an NPC and just get told no. So I mean, what else can I do? I literally need a DM to approve and watch over me doing anything, it's not a choice on my part to need to do that, it's a requirement, but I can't get a DM to fulfill their part of whatever it is you want to call the rules arrangement its created.

Amarice-Elaraliel wrote:

3. The last plots I know where all finished. Can't speak for the very old, but if DMs dump their shit it is not really the other DM to blame for that. We usually try to catch up those, if we are aware though.

5. Never heard any request for help with the crystal plot. I honestly thought the DM who started it finished it, as I never heard of it again. That we do not want to support player initiatives I strongly disagree with. They are my personal favorite and something I did almost exclusively for a long time. I only picked up on server wide plots again at all because there was an outcry for them, they are no preference of mine.

Can I PM you the details? The legwork was done by players and the code is on the server and works. We just need a DM to actually 'trigger' it and canonize the actions. It would be quite a different kind of server plot then muffin man however.

Amarice-Elaraliel wrote:

6. First of, when the grove had no DM for years, I was not a DM. Second of, I do. Every few months, actually.

That's interesting. It's surprising and good.

You can send me the details, sure.

And if you want to kill a specific NPC that is normally not meant to be killed (hostile) and a DM currently does not have the time to do that (and btw. this can go wrong too when it happens, which is always a risk) then do something else until someone has time?

I peronally do not know any RPG servers where you can just stroll in and kill whatever NPC you like that is not, by the default game setting, designed to be killed. Here you at least 'have' the option to attempt it unlike in many other games/servers. That you might not be able to do it any time you want and sometimes need to wait to find a DM to do it is an obstacle, but at least it is only and obstacle that may take a bit of time and not an impossibiity like in many other games. You can do other stuff in the meantime, it is not like your whole character should depend on killing one NPC.

P.S. Stop making snide-comments about some plots. That does not help this situation and it is your thing you may not like it, but others do. This is also by far not the only plot running atm. We ahve quite a few going on right now.

Ok, I'll stop talking about the muffin man. However I will say that I firmly believe it makes about as much sense as an NPC ranger called paul bunyan or a plot that has ppl looking for 2 missing kids named hansel and gretel. I dont like it and think this is valid criticism.

I asked the PC's involved in the plot I'm referencing (since my posts went in) and they don't want the plot run by the current staff. Didn't know that when I brought it up but I should have checked first as it wasn't my idea initially and im not going to force it. So my bad.

As an aside, I broke my word and tried playing on a different server. It's currently having issues with a PC gnoll sneaking into the city via the sewers and slaying npc's that fight back/faction hostile when attacked, and the gnoll remains at large despite numerous murders counting many PC's and NPC's and guards among the dead. So there's at least one server that just lets you do it.

Never said you can't do it on Amia. You can. People killed NPC plenty times before.

There is just no point in killing NPC that are not by default meant to be killed without a DM as there is then neither any useful interaction nor any challenge as NPC like that act rather poorly on their own. So it's about as much a challenge against a buffed PC as stealing a lollipop froma toddler and you also get no NPC reaction out of the other NPC unless a DM is there which makes it no different or more exciting than going out of Wharfrown and killing a bunch of Bandits, imho. Only that they are at least designed to fight and you get some loot out of that.

The excitement to me going for NPC is the chain reaction that comes with it (which can be quite enhanced by a DM there) and not to tap a button and kill something in 1-2 hits and then do the same the next day and the next day and the next day.

But that's me.

As for your plot, if they do not want it run, then can't help them.

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