I am sorry to hear that, however, we are trying to stay a bit on topic here now and be constructive, this post, is not constructive.



Moogle has actually spent quite some time adding/reflecting the rebuilt of Khem over the last years by various player groups and efforts. We need to make it all dynamic now, then that goes in with a lovely little IC post.

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Yeah it was poor phrasing on my part, it wasn't intentional to undermine the time and effort put into it by the dev & dm team as well.

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Adair - Druid and part time treant cosplayer

Still, what I am worried about is players not coming back. Not because they choose not to, but because a couple of the Dms insulted them and pretty much told them they are not wanted. If this happens, wouldn't that then give Amia a bad reputation within the Neverwinter community?

I know a good few people here have said some pretty awful stuff on this forum. However, they are frustrated with what is going on currently and want to come back. They care about Amia enough to voice their opinions about it, why should we condemn these individuals? I know there are countless more who really just do not give a damn at this point, and have moved on. Which, for whatever reasons they have, they will be missed. None the less, those we have left, are the community, and condemning them to be nothing more than forum trolls and ghouls and telling them to leave is not how we should treat our fellow player mates. I will admit, there are some things I do not agree with of some players, but in the end, it is just a game. Lets all enjoy it and help others enjoy it.

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"A master role player is one who is willing and able to bend their character concept to make the game more enjoyable for all involved. To assist the DM in making the game fun, and not to show discord."

Oh, I didn't read it as that. It was more a sneak peak that something is underway here.

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The Little Dragon

Okay, I am sorry in advance, and I am trying to formulate this as politely as possible... however, I know you 'try' to help, however, this is not helpful.

Yes, there may have been a few players who felt insulted, by the/a DM, by players, by the change of the server, by something not going as they wanted or by gods know what. There has also been DMs who felt insulted by players or havebeen haressed by players and left or at least quit the "job".That has always been the case. That will always be the case. This is not something that is Amia exclusive. It is sad when it happens, but it happens. Not much we can do about it but look forward and try to keep reminding us that this is just a game and that we all should try to remain civil.

This will not always work, because human nature.

However, constantly bringing up the same things over and over in a repetitive loop does not help the server.

A quote here:

Don't worry about the future. Or worry, but know that worrying is as effective as trying to solve an algebra equation by chewing bubble gum.

What is important now is that we focus on what we can improve, how we can make the server and work processes better. That we keep and are more open and that we try to stay respectful. Non of this will always work, but that is all we can do. Sitting here and worry that things will go bad, won't solve anything, but inevitably lead to thingsa ctually going bad, because nothing is done.

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Two dms just gave players middle fingers. I think there is something wrong with this.

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"A master role player is one who is willing and able to bend their character concept to make the game more enjoyable for all involved. To assist the DM in making the game fun, and not to show discord."

There was a dispute between some players and some DM, it happens, and isn't pretty business. And both sides then got heated up which made it worse, hence why other DM stepped in and forced people too cool off before writing more things in anger.

After that, people went back to discuss reasonably and use the topic for its purpose, except for you.

You poking it over and over and over, will neither change what happened, nor make it any better.

We are all aware of what happened, you need not remind us every second post.

And now we move on, and see we make things better in the future.

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For the record, the only one that got heated was the DM. The other parties involved stayed level headed.

That said, I don't have anything to add, so I'll stop commenting, I just wanted it clear I never lost my temper, but I do dislike being told to "fuck off" for giving my opinion. Just because I didn't like something, doesn't mean I should be told to fuck off. Yet, that's what happened.

Resume positive thinking and I apologize for offtracking the topic again.

Usually this happens when people aren't being constructive in a discussion or intentionally disruptive or overly negative. Constantly complaining and playing the victim card will never endear you to people, not online and not IRL. And the only thing that's given Amia a bad reputation are people that have caused it by spreading it around other places. I know of more than one person that got banned or left that spread a half-truth or their truth on other sites to give Amia a bad rep.



The thing is, that's not how it comes across. If you leave the server, but still complain about things you thought were wrong when you left, then you're not part of any solution. Saying you'll only come back if these things get changed is taking an antagonistic approach and a way of trying to hold people hostage/giving ultimatums. "Do this, or I'm not going to come" "You said this, so now I'm not returning" when the towel is already thrown in. If you truly care about the server, and want to influence it in a positive way, then you'll remain and tough it out. Talk to people, try to understand why everyone isn't agreeing with your views and re-assess your position. I know that I personally don't care about the opinions on how to change things from people that have left, because by leaving willingly they showed they aren't willing to be a part of the solution in my eyes. What people have to understand is that a community like this isn't a finite thing. You can't "win" by having things your way all the time. Instead you have to play the infinite game of voicing your opinions and views while participating and realizing that change, real actual change is something that takes time and doesn't happen over night.

I'll give the example of a topic that constantly returns or gets brought up by people that are leaving/have left. "I don't have people to play with anymore" "people don't like my char" "I feel like my RP gets ignored" and similar sentiments. Situations like these are usually brought about by the player themselves, and not a fault of the setting or community. It is a simple cornerstone of social interaction that people who constantly rub people the wrong way eventually gets ostracized. Nobody likes Jake in accounting who's constantly bitching about Jan and John in Human resources. If people intentionally avoid your char in game, then it's likely because that character isn't very endearing or likeable. If you wnt people to interact with your character, there are generally two ways to go about it. Either try and have the character solidified in a position of power, because if Jake in accounting suddenly is regional manager, people can think he's an asshole all they want, they'll still have to do things his way. Or if Jake throws awesome weekend parties for office members, then people are more likely to put up with the negative traits he's got, because "that party is bitchin, yo." The other way is to blend in or conform with how people interact. This goes both as a player and with characters. By power, I don't mean that you need to have some sort of specific power, like being a DM or a leader for a faction, but the definition of power: "the capacity or ability to direct or influence the behaviour of others or the course of events." For instance, some players have always managed to drive a lot of others to hang around them or take their side. Ingame Bendir for instance has a lot of power, because it is a hub of activity right now. That power is given by all the people that go there, and so it's only there as long as the people are.. but it is power nonetheless.

Because if you share your opinions and want to have things changed to your liking, that's what you're trying to assert. And it's what some have tried to do by threatening to leave if it doesn't get changed. It's an attempt to assert power. The problem is that more often than not, it's simply non existent.

IF you truly want to change things, then then you need to be a positive influence and work with the community and perhaps not always get your way.. but continue championing it nonetheless because it is how you assert change and eventually you'll help bring about more and more people that see things your way. It's what any leader has to do, and people that manage to bring about change are invariably leaders. Some might go on different servers and say "oh this is much better here" or "this server is better because they do X instead of Y" but that is never helpful, because it exists on that server for the same reasons I've listed above. It's had players come together and championing it as something they desire or want.

Leaving and lurking on the forums to constantly point out every little thing you disagree with, is frustrating to everyone who still fights to keep the wheels turning, because it's not helpful, it's not productive and all it does is spread more negativity. Either stay and work to bring about the change you desire, or leave and find something else that you'll enjoy doing. There is no middle ground third option; not online, not in real life and not on any other server or setting or whatever. When it happens, be it on Amia, some other server, at work, with a circle of friends or anything else, then the result is always the same. The party with one foot in the door, or Jake in accounting gets disliked and frustrates everyone else, ultimately achieving nothing.

Ps.
The first option here, of staying and fighting for the change you want is what we ALL WANT as a community. Because it is the only way it can evolve and change for the better, so I hope that more people will do just that instead of taking option two or continuing to take the nonexistent option number 3 in my example.

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Adair - Druid and part time treant cosplayer

It isnt about that. You see, I want to become a police officer in the next year, and we are literally held to a fine standard to become one. And this is reasonable because we are given much control over people's daily lives, so they should make sure we are moral and ethical with our power.
If a police officer used that kind of language on the job, they are reprimanded. And this is correct. For police officers should be the people that others look up to. The embodiment of righteousness. If they are not, then what is stopping them from abusing their powers, other than a the laws forcing them to do so?

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"A master role player is one who is willing and able to bend their character concept to make the game more enjoyable for all involved. To assist the DM in making the game fun, and not to show discord."

I very much agree with Grave's post.

In my old job, which was very straining mentally, we each had a personal coach.

One of the most important, yet laughably simple things he taught me and I always remind myself of is this:



Any state of staying in-between these 3 options, will eventually frustrating you and make you and all those around you unhappy.

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This example is flawed. You speak of real life authority. People who can ruin your life if they abuse their power or beat people up. They must have super high standards, and yet it 'still' constantly happens they do abuse their power.

However, a corrupt policemen can ruin your life.

This is a video game, man. Worst thing that can happen to you here is that you get annoyed and find a new game.

The DM are volunteer workers and try to help this server on their own accord. They are just other gamers.

If a DM horribly abuses their DM position, we deal with it and have dealt with it before. But yelling at someone and tell them to fuck off is neither abusing the power nor will it be the end of the world.

Had the DM in question abused his power, he would have banned you and deleted your character. This was "just" a slip of tone.

P.S. If I would get paid a dollar for every time a police officer has told someone to fuck off in human history all over the world, I probably would sit under palm trees in the carribean now (on an isle that belongs to me).

P.P.S. Doesn't mean I feel we should communicate like that here.

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So if we as players cannot change the server, and we do not like the server as it is, you are then telling us to leave. That is unfortunate.

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"A master role player is one who is willing and able to bend their character concept to make the game more enjoyable for all involved. To assist the DM in making the game fun, and not to show discord."

If that's what you took away from it, then you completely missed the point of the whole thing.

The only reason a player cannot "change the server" is because they're approaching it in the wrong way, as I pointed out in my post above.
And unless it changes, then as Amarice said.. It will only end up frustrating you, and everyone around you.

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Adair - Druid and part time treant cosplayer

Alright. If we can change it, how exactly is the correct way of going about it then?

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"A master role player is one who is willing and able to bend their character concept to make the game more enjoyable for all involved. To assist the DM in making the game fun, and not to show discord."

This is not, nor has it ever been the case.

We have players to initiate, DMs to facilitate, and Devs to build and maintain the server. Hell, transparency with player initiatives is why I made that open thread for players to submit their projects. I reopened it not even a month ago. We're listening. We're trying, and no one is telling anyone to get out.

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Occasionally seen as [DM] Raua, or playerside as...

Players can change the server.

Just 1 player cannot and should not change the server 100% against what everyone else wants.

Examples:
Sam, Darby, Cory and others change Caraigh quite a bit, especially the Mill.
Torsten, formerly known as Tom, changed Howness drastically.
Several players, changed Cordor West drastically. In this case made it less lawful and more shady.

I could go and and on here but Grave listed many things already. All those things are feasable. Players can influence a lot IC. But also OOC. A lot of player suggestions were added and/or worked with and discussed.


Now if you feel your character should be able to cast one hellball and blow up all of cordor. That won't fly.

If you feel your character should get an item with 5 epic spells because he is the most awsomesauce character in history, that won't fly.

If you want to change the server to a cyber paradise, that also won't fly.

So yes, there are restrictions. That does not mean players cannot change the server though. If you are however unhappy with the general outlay of the server and what the server is, then yes, you might want to find a place that is more suitable to your desires.

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Then how does a player go about changing the server?

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"A master role player is one who is willing and able to bend their character concept to make the game more enjoyable for all involved. To assist the DM in making the game fun, and not to show discord."

That depends on the change.

If you want to make suggestions for the server in general you make a post in imp Amia or here.

If you want your character to accomplish something and change an area in game, you need to be consistent in your RP and work on it IC.

You wanted an honest answer: Consistency is your main problem. You jump from here to there, today you want this, tomorrow you want that, next week you don't even remember you wanted something else last week. This is one of the biggest issues you faced with most of your change desires so far. Like your character build requests.

Also your ooc change ideas. You constantly send me PMs with "I have a great idea, we should do this, I work on it now". Then I never hear of it again, instead I get a new PM a few days later, with the next great idea you say you will send more details later, and again, never heard of again until the next, unfinished idea comes.

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I do have a project I am working on in west cordor with my character atm. How would you suggest going about that?

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"A master role player is one who is willing and able to bend their character concept to make the game more enjoyable for all involved. To assist the DM in making the game fun, and not to show discord."

Feel free to PM me about West Cordor.

There are three things that you should do as a player and that is your responsibility:

First: Do you due diligence and learn about the place.
Second: Figure out what you want to do and how.
Third: Be persistent and consistent with the RP

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Lord Hector Sylgerand
Glendil Fettian, the black bard

Just wanted to chime in and say I'm excited for daemonreach! Hoping it'll be out when I return next month

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I don't want to point fingers but I really think a Dm should not act like Dicey did. I been banned for similar things on other servers.

And people who know from Amia pre-ban 2007 and my time on POTM 2009-2015 or so know that im a person who easily snaps and goes on the defense. But Dicey want to protect AMIA, I am sure of it but from my own experience, it is a bad way of doing such. People will leave because of this, people will not enjoy being scolded when they try to be helpful. In the end, if people keep writing, they want to help, both Dicey and those he got mad at mostly want to help out or see Amia surviving. We should not infight our own community but atleast be able to discuss and argue our cause but not fight. If there is people who want to be assholes they show themself but then those you will notice. Players might have left but they still keep the memory, isn't your slogan "You will be back"? Keep up this mentality that they can come back. Look at me, I left after a f ew years, disgruntled and in a f ight with several DMs and Players in 2007 to later return, ironically enough, after being banned on POTM for losing my temper much like people did in this thread and an arguement with the server owner on facebook. But im back, almost 10 years later when I returned last year again. And here I am, after saying I will never return to Amia. I could have picked EfU or Arelith with bigger communities and maybe RP and events more fiting me and my more "grim dark fantasy" ideas after years on POTM and DMing a bit of this in GURPS. But Amia was nostalgia for me, lot of memory, friends for life and such gained here. So I returned. Do not lose faith in that players can return, do not consider them a lost cause that cannot come back.

On to discussing how I see things on the server.

I also noticed something, it is hard to put this forward without sounding like I hate the DMs or think they do a good job. But, I will try to be constructive. I have played NWN for so many years now, since 2005 or 2006. On and off I spent thousands of hours by now. NWN and Dota 2 is the two games I have thousands of hours in. Some of my best friends on the web I found in these two games. People I still do this day talk to or even met in real life.

I never been good at the PvPing in NWN or builds. I always like the mystery or exploration or the detective work. I miss this on Amia. You have a ton of potentiality, knowledge and own unique lore for Amia. Sadly most events end up in bloodbaths against hordes of enemies, mostly thanks to the lvl 30 and the mentality that killing stuff is the only way of solving problems. Which I think is in sharp contrast to how pacifist and easily some people throw out the "you're a race hater" to characters who act paranoid around Orcs, Goblins, Gnolls, Drow, Ogres, and a bunch of other races, but the difference here is that it seems we gladly race murder a thousand Orcs in an event but then are not as keen on defending ourselves from player PC or drive them away. Even when we do drive them off or kill them, people seem to RP that raise dead is around the corner. It is mechanically but this nonchalance towards dying kinda kills immersion for me. Even if it is easily achieveable to raise the dead, I think it still would be a painful experience.

So what I really hope to see shape up for the server is more events more focused on these topics I brought up and some consistency in how we as players do our thing. I understand we cannot gut every single Drow or openly evil character we see but sometimes we need to maybe stand up and bring in some kind of overall mindset.

If character X think Y is a bad thing, this should not be condemned.

I am not pointing fingers, I say we as in a community, we all done it on and off sometimes.

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Plays:
Sylveera : Sun Elven fury packed in an Arcane Archer, not a Drow, promise.
Tetrik : Greed incarnate in a Duergar.
Budly : Has gone to a better place.
Barrililath : Shadowy Drow, probably less Drow than Sylv ever be.

Okay, whoever if you thinks they are "cool" by sending Dicey flame invites on Skype now under the fake name "Dicey Sucks":

You are pathetic. And if I find you, and that used to be my job so chances are high, your days on Amia are over.

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..woofadoofa.

So, on a 'helping this server out' note, some things I've noticed now, compared to the times (better part of a decade ago) when I made attempts to play:

Really Good, Love to See More Like This:
The Bulletin Boards. I really like these, and I really like that there's a little announcement when they happen. Would it be possible for these to be made to persist over resets, maybe 24 hours?

Job System XP: Back the last time I played, it was negligible, so the boost (it feels like there was one?) is nice. I saw a suggestion that PCs be given more job points, though, that seems pretty pertinent with a lower user-base than back when it was implemented. I'd like that, given the interconnectedness.

The Adventurer's Guild. I honestly probably would've burnt out around level 10 or so without this. Amia's not necessarily huge, but it is kind of confusing if you aren't used to it, maybe, and beyond the quest list I've had some trouble finding clear indicators of where to go at what level. Back last time, though, it was a way longer trial and error slog for me that eventually burnt me out. (Mildly worried about what happens when I lose that hand-hold, but, whatevs.)

Stuff What Might Be Nice:
Longer duration placeables. There seems to be a heavy emphasis on server-alterations here, and some placeables that persist over resets, maybe made with the job system, and with a 'persistance' duration determined by the crafter's job ranks, would be a nice way to effect change on a medium-term basis.

Some Modernization: This one would be a lot of work, and I get why it wouldn't be done. Things like altering quests to use clicks and conversations instead of useable objects, specifics-rather-than-generals about mechanical changes, etc. It's not a hindrance to play or probably even retention, but does take me out of the game a bit, probably more than the veterans. (The mechanics being obfuscated or just not stated is, actually, kind of a turn-off, coming from a server with a constantly updated wiki detailing stats for.. basically everything from craftables to summons to minute class DC calculations, but I'm trying to deal with it best I can.)

More 'in player's hands,' stuff, maybe that also takes a bit less pressure off of looking at the forum to keep up with current events. A lot of it's pretty inpenetrable if you haven't been here a while, I imagine. See also the bulletin board and placeable notes. This might help take a little pressure off the dms, and help with this 'we want to change the world' note I keep seeing in the general forum.

Overall, though, I've found the server a lot more polished and welcoming than the last time(s) I've played, and seeing efforts to improve on the forums is what made me decide to dip my toe in after like, I think six years? And I'm definitely enjoying myself more now.

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Gahnn Bluetusk
Aleksandr Vespermouth II
"Malnutrition is scarier than any beastie."

@Stuff

That's not something I understand. How anyone takes this sort of thing so personally.

This is a forum for a online D&D-esque game. How hurt are you, and how empty is your daily life to allow you, to take things said here so personally to seek someone out on other channels? My mind just baffles, but then again, I've always had problems with herd instinct and caring about what others think, even in real life. And that's not some sort of "ugh, I'm too cool and edgy." I lack whatever piece of the human cog that is. I've struggled with it in some cases.

If you're reading this, whoever is doing such a thing, I'll say what I say to all trolls or the sort: I hope you get the attention you so desperately seek. I even hesitate to use the word troll, because that indeed feeds back into why you felt need to do it. Nothing you've done is special. You'll not accomplish anything unique. At best you feel better and move along when you're done, hopefully to something more worthwhile in your existence.

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If there is one large change I've witnessed in the "state of the server" it is indeed with the playerbase. And that's not to say we haven't always had trolls or people who can't seem to get it through their heads when they are and are not helping. Really. Some just seem incapable of realizing it, and it it's not a certain player all the time, it's a general backsliding in forum dialogue. Amia's not your therapy, bruh. It's a forum for a 15 year old computer game. Jesus, if you feel the need to vent or act out, do it like on a Reddit where people can actually help you. There's places for that. Not here.

Everyone here is a person behind a screen. A nerd behind the screen, let's be real, we're all playing D&D. These people you play with, you speak with here, likely have more in common with you than a lot of your coworkers or people on the street. If you're offended by them or offend them, cool, don't burn the bridge. Holy Hell, call them out, sure, but Christ you're an adult, be willing to move on and get back to work. How can you function when you become so hung up by things? You can't teach empathy or introspection. I should know. But again, at least fake it enough where you're not bringing everyone else down with you.

Before you post here, on Amia, heck, anywhere online, as these questions:

1. Is what I'm about to say helpful?

Does this further the conversation? Am I lending insight? Am I just churning up old stuff because I'm still PO'd over something. Am I just nay-saying because I have personal doubts about the topic?

2. Is what I'm about to say truthful?

If what I'm about to say isn't really aiding anything, is it objectively truthful? Not an opinion, not a "tough titty" fact, but a statement rooted in actual reality.

3. Would I say this to someone's face, if I had to continue to work with them afterwards?

Anyone can get angry and "tell someone off." It happens. But most adults have learned to be able to put things behind them for the sake of something bigger. This community is bigger than any one individual or any one opinion. So is the story. There's nothing you can possibly get upset about that is worth disparaging another player, negging them, accusing them, harassing them, anything, that is somehow more worth the goal we're all here to work on.

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That's great to hear. For a long time, our stated goal was to do things for everyone on the server. And while we were, I think where we fell off was not really listening. That doesn't mean just doing whatever is suggested. As it is often attributed to Henry Ford, "If I had asked people what they wanted, they would have said faster horses."

Where I think we've picked up and improved as a server is going more towards the source of the suggestions. The adventurer's guild, from what I've seen, is in part an effort to help people organize parties, and now, finding quests. For a long time, people simply wanted some sort of OoC guide or more Party Ball functions. While that would indeed be an avenue, it's not making the most out of our resources. Now, it's an IC fixture and we can interact with it. There are someways it can be improved, but at least now the idea has a foothold. And those changes can even come from IC now too.




Over time, we've had dungeons put together by multiple devs and DMs. Sometimes it's confusing to find them and navigate them because they are so differently made from each other. I totally agree we could use some changes that ensure consistency. I also think we can stand to add more IC hints to help people find quests. Even so many years into the game, I still occasionally click on an NPC and go "Oh, what, now I have a quest.... for an area that no longer exists.... Well, shit."

As for the more things in player's hands, that's something I've stated I'm not sure on. But I'm the old guard. Maybe I'm looking through rose tinted glasses at times when it felt like I could and did walk into the places and start things and both DMs and players seemed fine to role with it. In actuality, it does seem like players have brought up not feeling like they can do that easily any more. But I wouldn't write it off to not being able to do those things just yet.

The issue, to me, seems to be turnaround time. On some level, it's a symptom of less devs and folk. On another, it's likely an effort to ensure quality control. I remember once in my early Amian years, I said to the DM "Hey, we want to protect a bunch of archaeologists for our guild/group thing." "Alright, give me a minute. Oh, and who are you guys again? Oh, cool, yeah, one sec." And there it was. We had an event. The DM felt cool enough to just have something happen without meticulous planning and checking the lore of Amia Forest(wasnt really much at that point anyway) and we felt cool enough to just roll with this idea we had had a few minutes before.

There are benefits to that sort of thing as well as drawbacks. We've shifted over the years to making sure everything can stand up to scrutiny. You can still request that event now, but the DMs going to have to get back to you, consult tons of lore of the area, pawn it off to the DM in charge of that area, and then possibly plan out an event. It'll be consistent and thorough, but it indeed creates the air of making it seem like everything requires tons of planning.

What are some ways we can embolden both DMs and Players to have that sort of pick-up-and-go spirit? I feel like that contributes more to feeling like DMs are needed to do things. It's not that you have to contact them, it's just things seem like they take a long time to plan in advance. Some things should! But starting a bar fight, mini-missions, hell, just trying to do something and going with it and the DM being okay to just make it up as they go along... there's a simple P&P joy in that that's missing sometimes. Player-generated placables, builds, bases, etc, with the Faction Area will help that in a way, but the other side of that equation is having players who want to go out there and try new things.

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The State of the Server.

I think it's fine. We got past a ruff patch but i really like the direction it is going. We got more Dm's, more Dm activity, (I saw five on at the same time the other day) we got a new head pack, were getting new area's, new Item's and the player activity has been on the rise. Mad props to the people up stair's, keep doing what your doing!

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Imperial Knight of Ireland
E'Milliah Emberwatch follower of Helm the Vigilant One
Milly can run the Mino Maze in under 12 Parsecs

First of all, Dicey. Thank you for pointing out some of my frustration. I totally understood where you're coming from.

Secondly, Amarice. This last page was amazing to read how you went around and around different issues with such eloquence. Honestly, great work and thank you, such an example.

Both of you, thank you for pointing out clearly what was mistakes in some responses given. It was clear and compressed to the point.


For some specific people, try to think a little bit about how you want to influence. If you really want to see a change, rather than talk about it, go and make it happen. IF it does not happen, then it is a clear message there is something wrong and no one is obliged to tell you why it is not working out.

EDIT: My point is... Life or a game does not own you anything, nor are you entitled to anything just because.

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http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/spells.htm

Magiros, I would disagree with your conclusion/edit.

I, and anybody else on here, is entitled to a few things. Like at least a smidgeon of respect. Simply from being a human being, like you, like your IRL friends, like your neoghbor. There is a tiny amount of respect I can expect, and I should give said respect even to the biggest idiot on the server. Hell, think for a second, you'll find somebody that description fits to. Hell, for this post,maybe that idiot is me. But this person, is a person. It is a human being as well. Would you not want, and for that matter, expect, any old person to respect you?

Yes, it's a game. But that does not excuse you to not acknowledge the others' humanity. If I would go ahead and harrass you all day, you'd be... affected as well, yes? So why should so e people not care, but others are allowed to care, amd voice their opinions?

Fair enough Robbi, we can agree to disagree here.

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http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/spells.htm

I want clarity from whatever team is in charge anymore.

If I go to Demonreach and try to conquer it and kill the occupying forces, am I now going to be banned pursuant to Dicey's whatever-that-was?

There was never any statement about that and this was billed BY MAV as "a pvp-loose island" where whoever can enforce their rule is the one in charge.


I want an official statement from the team on WTF you make of Dicey promising to ban people who pvp there. And nothing else. Just so that whoever does play on this island has a post they can point to if this does become an issue with Dicey trying to ban people.

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Osiris Masud

The PvP rules will be relaxed a lot. We still want to encourage RP though. If you are running around and pvping non stop with no RP, or straight up harassing people OOCly with PvP then we will have to step in and give you a boot.

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Active
Levexal
Techsmith Tokas Tokersun - http://amiaworld.net/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=88661

The difference between griefing and merely being a warlord is just a bare little investment of RP. It's not that hard.



Conquering implies a higher goal. I'm asking in a rhetorical sense, but why is your character going there? You want to PvP, I get that, but is your character's purpose for being there? Unless they have no higher brain functions, there will be a goal for them risking their lives to fight others. There's the time-honored, anime "I need to fight to become stronger!", but keep in mind, there's never a guarantee of being brought back IC. Cool, go out, get your ass kicked, but uh oh, someone cut off your head and threw you into Limbo so they don't have to deal with you any more. *I may be guilty of this.

What happens if/when they've succeeded in subduing these occupying forces? Are they then just a crotchety old hilbilly in a rocking chair, next to a "No Tresspassing" sign? What if they can't defeat them; will they keep smacking their head against the wall, or join up with them in an effort to rule, or, or, or...

I think you're savvy enough to get what is being gone for here. There's ways to get enjoyment out of PvP without absolutely ignoring all makings of a story and meaningful RP. It doesn't mean you have to sit around and sip tea and wax philosophical between every fight. By the same token, if someone were going there to merely PvP everyone instantly on sight, and the fights don't even have a point for the characters involved, that's not what they're going for either, as I understand it.

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Never suggested that anybody should ignore RP. You have a habit of rambling a bit DI. You completely missed what I was saying.

Nobody.

Nobody in the entire time this island has ever been discussed.



Nobody.

Ever said that they wanted to just pvp without RP or meaning or goals or anything.

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Osiris Masud

Then you missed my point as well.

No one wants to harsh you going there to fight bruh, just make sure it has a point. You asked if you go there to "conquer and kill" occupying forces if you'd be banned. I think it's pretty obvious that you would not. What I understood from everything that's been said, including even what Dicey said, the difference between getting banned and being fine is a small bit of RP.

I wasn't implying that you or anyone had the intent of ignoring RP. I was trying to describe what had already been said in a way that made it clearer, if not to you, then at least others to others.

/ramble out

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Don't think Mav implied that anyone said that also. It's just a general statement and not targeted at anyone.

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No, Mavv didn't, and I never said he did. But there's a lot of talk now because of Dicey's random accusations at nobody in particular supposedly, that people are apparently going to pvp there mindlessly.

Which has never been the case. Nobody ever expressed that opinion.

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Osiris Masud

Then hopefully Mav's statement clears that all up then? Think everyone who's posted since is in agreement that it won't divulge into mindless PvP, and it's just going to be looser rules. Think we're all cooled enough since then to see that. And don't think people are attacking you personally dude, just someone had a bad day and could have been a bit more diplomatic about how it came out!

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I said it wasn't a "PvP Island" as everyone likes to refer to it as and that if anyone just shows up there and starts pvping for no reason then yes they will get the boot. You still need an rp reason for doing it. the rules will be a bit loose in terms of the fact that there are 4 faction areas, 1 is NPC run and like the starting point of where you will likely land. There are then 3 other areas that PCs can take over and build on using the faction system Mav created. Now if these factions happen to start hating one another and start to fight then based on how RP has lead them then you won't need as many permissions to engage, or DM oversight to sneak in to their base etc etc and things like that, stuff the DM team has still not decided on. Abusing the system like anything else being abused will warrant the boot. That was the point I made. This was not designed to be an area to just show up and PvP for no reason. It was made to give players the chance to build their own faction where they can control how things progress with less DM oversight. You area will be run by you the player, no NPCs, so no need for a DM to sit and watch certain players sneak in etc etc you are responsible for your area. Hope this has clarified things a bit better.

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Active Characters:
Eugene Quickfingers - Feytastic Hin Sorcerer
Norick Darkmoore - The Mage with a Kick
Ricket Ashgather - The Hin with Attitude

That sounds pretty good, actually.

How would it affect the whole if a new faction was impliments for a theoretical reason? And is the system just set for that island, or could it be copy and pasted or perhaps even use a template?

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"A master role player is one who is willing and able to bend their character concept to make the game more enjoyable for all involved. To assist the DM in making the game fun, and not to show discord."

The faction area renting will be added to other areas too.

The PVP rule "laxing" not due to reasons mentioned earlier.

It will effect factions in the sense that a faction, new founded, doesn't need "DM approval" to get a faction area. They toss money together, they grab an area, they style it to their liking.

This does not really lessen the classical factions. While we try to add as many PLC as possible to the widget that allows you to place and save PLC in the faction area, requesting a faction area for your active faction in time, still has a lot more individuality and options.

However, it is a great way for a newer faction to have 1. a place to hang out pretty soon and modify as they like. 2. See how the faction takes off and how it goes. 3. Less "DM government"

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now this would definately be interesting to see.

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"A master role player is one who is willing and able to bend their character concept to make the game more enjoyable for all involved. To assist the DM in making the game fun, and not to show discord."

I don't like the idea of making a faction area a gold sink like the housing system as this is sounding a lot like what it is. IMO this supports grinding and less so roleplay. It will at least be a step up from before, so I can't really complain and think it's a wonderful initiative the dev team has started. But se la vi.

My constructive crit is what I think needs to be changed for a better over all environment here's my compiled list take it or leave it how you like.


Swap out the dm's every so often so they don't get burnt out. Let others who have never been before do it that want to do it.
Have Dms take notes and leave them for other dms stream line understanding of whats going on behind the scenes
Let player initiative thrive
Let the server change and Develop based on plots and player initiatives.
Let Projects be a thing
Fix the request processes and stream line that. You already have to 'work' to get dcs as rewards why add extra work in the processes? It's needless. [Some might stress quality control but this is a game. An old game let people have a little fun. ]
Develop the server - expand and elaborate. There are plenty of ways to do this.
Stop treating PVP like a dirty word. Let it have consequences.
Stop telling Players NO out right entertain their ideas and let them work on them through trial and error. Interaction is the basis of Roleplay.
Treat every one with respect player or DM alike. Every ones a human behind the screen they get stressed they have emotions don't judge some one eternally because they had some issues and blew up. It happens. Forgive and forget.
Introduce Mounts to the Server as a vanity aesthetic.
Fix the poison system and add more poison nodules and re add removed poisons. Add another poison maker or stream line the processes and offer / make a request-able widget for those how want to make poisons.
Let conflict have plot and meaningful story. Let there be more plots around intrigue and solving problems other than way of the blade.
Let new adventures flourish and run the server like a campaign. Let new discoveries be a thing let players act on that and respond to their motivations.
Remove the EXP cap on Job Sytem stuff. It breaks the intended mechanics of the Job system no longer can some one be a master market gardener and get exp from all three of their plants at once. If some one puts in the work for their job they should get the exp. Stop being stingy and let people play how they want to play.
Expand Jobsystem things add more to various areas encourage exploring to find new nodules.
Fix the mapping job-system stuff for new areas. This doesn't work on the new areas all that great at all.
Add more quests that vary in style Don't simply make them fetch quests or killing quests add intrigue and options. Let Players toy with different paths in some or give them puzzles to solves. Make things adventurous.
Don't re-skin / re work old things that work. Make new things that work.
Stop making it take months of irl time to build or change anything. It's a game let it be a game.
Keep scripting a thing. Let Players contribute if their scripts work.
Make the adventuring guild center stage plot line for a while. It's a wonderful plat form that calls back to the true meaning of D&D.Let rag tag group members be faced against huge problems.
Let the players loose here and there. Not everything ends good. Let ramifications and consequences be a thing.
Make interest in special characters mean something. Let their back grounds and goals be meaningful and toy with them for a short while as a dm and intertwine other pcs on the server in to mini plots involving such. It breathes life in to the environment and makes things feel much more worth while and viable.

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The faction system would be abused if there wasn't a buy in. If it didn't have a buy in and cost then a single player with enough alts could run around and claim the entire servers worth of faction areas.

The cost is an incentive to group as well. It isn't going to be cheap, and it will require a group, a faction, of people to maintain. The gold cost is also an IC explanation for the building up of the areas. The gold you are paying is ICly paying for the materials and work force.



We would love to have more people to allow DMs to take more breaks and avoid burn out. The problem is not everyone is qualified or trusted to DM. DMing opens up the door for someone to abuse, and exploit if they aren't trustworthy. It also requires someone emotionally and mentally sound enough to handle the constant player issues, pms, etc. It is extremely draining and taxing.

We have had DMs of the past who weren't trustworthy and believe me when I say those scars and lessons are why our rules and high standards exist today.


We do. Each DM is required to maintain their own journal. Though usually only major things are required to be recorded. This is a practice that we have been enforcing more and more over the past few years because of past issues with DMs leaving and leaving nothing.


We try and part of that is getting more qualified DMs on board, which we have been doing lately.


We do. The entire server is the way it is because of plots and player initiatives.


Projects? Expand on this.


It is a game based around a theme, lore, and rules. The theme, lore, and rules of Forgotten realms makes the experience and the things you do/can do have impact as a result. Telling us to remove quality control will break the role play immersion by what would come out as a result. I don't want to see a friendly singing Dracolich in Cordor square again during my life time, sorry.


What are some of these ways that aren't being pursued now?


This is something the player base needs to embrace but I certainly agree with it.


This isn't always that simple. Some things are much better to establish as a big no for otherwise you get players who commit hundreds of hours towards a goal, fail, and throw a fit because they feel they have been lied to when the reality of the roleplay and the world the game is set in doesn't allow it.


This isn't as easy as it sounds and we dont have the right skill set to even begin to tackle this. I don't think mounts will make or break the server. Maybe in the future if the stars align.


This also isn't that simple but if I ever get some free time and my list of to do stuff actually shrinks ill take a look into the poison system itself and see if it is fixable.


DMs are rather specialized as well and some of us are just awful at plots of intrigue that you are thinking of. Some of our new DMs though are all about the intrigue and problem solving and very little about the mechanics so! Hopefully they can balance us out.


I personally didn't mind how the job system was before the xp change but I was out voted. I think a good balance though is ideal, and going straight to the other extreme of no xp cap would cause issues.


This isn't going to happen unless there is an overwhelming demand and even then I don't think I could figure it out. The system is built by Disco and does some genius stuff, but as a result the only one who could comfortable alter that system now is him. He isn't involved in the server nor does he have the time anymore.


See above.


We are in the process now of adding more quests, I am certain some of the Devs will add their own flair outside of killing quests.


Explain? Examples please? What old things that worked, that were reworked? Making brand new stuff isn't that simple either. This is a pretty vague statement in general and I would appreciate some clarity.


*Coughs* Faction system! *Coughs*


Trying to keep it a thing but we are limited to me and my work load is pretty filled. Also, no offense, but most players scripts are a mess. I usually have to rework, fix, and change them before they are usable. I have had to rebuild a lot of scratch, like the alarm spell.


That is the idea! We are aiming to give it more nudges don't worry.


I agree.


I know for a fact this has been done before with special characters. You gotta step up and ask the DMs though to help start up your mini plot.

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Active
Levexal
Techsmith Tokas Tokersun - http://amiaworld.net/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=88661

*It's going to be abused regardless. No offense but it seems to me that it is forgotten that many old Player Characters have done nothing but hoard Gold for the longest time and have nothing but pretty pennies to throw at things. This alone is a simple easy way in an caters to such. We already see this often enough in Events where auctions were a thing. How often did Cory Just show up to out bid any new players for some shiny thing he couldn't or didn't even use just for the sake of having it?

*Gold just encourages players to grind. I'm personally sick of grind fests that's all there is to do is grind when no one's about. Several of the plots I participated in lately was the typical grind through tunnels and hordes of insert bad npc here .

*How else do you get gold on the server aside from other players? You kill mobs. This does not do for any one who wants to play dedicated merchant who sells goods, or a herbalist who spends time in hospices and the temples. They will not always make near as much as an adventuring character that grinds.

*I think it's a fine idea to have SOME form of Gold Cost associated with the system as it simply makes sense to have experiences for work and materials. But to make it a jacked up gold sink which what it sounds like is just going to fall prey to the same trappings we've seen a hundred time sin the past.

*Granted I gleamed the idea it may have a player limit as well but the old ruling was you needed 6 active players to be a faction. Those numbers are honestly absurd with the current player base if you're not apart of a city relevant faction.

*The idea that an application with a blank mod would allow for easier customization. Though I feel the fear here is limitations, excursiveness and size as well as maintenance. It seems to be The goal here is to stream line and automate some things. That's good in some respects but lacking in others. You kinda need a story teller or a dm to help a story along. Plus an application posses would be another mess like the request forums in such a regard I think, so I ca see why automated is preferred.




*This is poor word choice and it crops Up again and again. Who do you trust? Your friends. Who do you not trust? People who are not your friends. This makes the stigma and ideal that the team only hiers their friends and people who see eye to eye with them.

*IMO the private sector for dm requests should be removed and I think dms should be entitled to earn dcs the way players earn dcs it just makes sense. They still play as characters and it's encourage that they play as characters on the server. I think the set up for how dms earn dc's would be more understandable or more reasonable if they didn't play characters during their dm ship. And could then use them when they were taking a break from dming or swapping out with another dm as they could take up characters again. This allows dms to focus on dming and player sto focus on playing. This stops the stressed out divide of attention on members of the community who are permitted to do such. IMO I think the Player base should be allowed to vote on some temporary dms who can dm for a month or two and be swapped out. if they abuse their power kick em off and removed the privilege of being allowed to do such.

*And honestly if you use those words to describe those you've rejected what do you think the Player base thinks you think about them then? This plays in to the 'US' vs 'THEM' mentality that exists and manifests on the server. I'm a strong believer in giving folks a change to prove them selves and show what they can contribute.

*Currently DM status is treated like god hood and like it or not the player base sees DMs as being up on a pedestal of a level of achievement they are un able to reach. This feels unfair to them and fosters negative feelings and emotions and sours them towards the community and the server. This also contributes to the 'US' vs 'THEM' mentality that exists that should really go away. As an aside when people curse at each other it just reinforces that. My advice to any one who wants to dm is treat your players to a good time and a good adventure. Don't do things for the sake of malice or screwing around to be mean spirited. Do things and create adventures you may enjoy if you were a player. The old adage of treat people how you would wish to be treated.

*To my understanding a lot is missing for city factions and I think the dm team could stand to make some threads asking old player sto contribute what they remember of the lore from the past. Like Tarkuul. Glim is no longer around but from what I've heard as of late Tarkuul sounds very different from what it once was.
*Perhaps a DM 'TOOL BOX' would be good and allows dms to put everything they make that goes game side in a mini erf that can be loaded / removed each erf pertaining to a plot and a small archived system of old things that way any new dms can did up the appropriate erf and find the npc's that were being used but no longer exist ig could help out. Same goes for plot areas, items and so forth.

Which is great.

*I find this harder and harder to believe as I see things but truth be told my perception is most certainly skewed to a myriad of bad experiences I've had with trying to communicate with the team in the past and being met with dissatisfaction, negativity, or nothingness.

*Projects... Hector's been telling me for what about a year about a dinky watch tower by the bridge? This can be added in the tool set in about 10-15 minutes if you really want it to look nice.
*The kobolds built a wall many months back... still not shown in game... Small projects they don't do much but hey- let them be a thing.


*Always the extremist views are used to counter act this point. Let assimars have wings let tieflings have tails let fey have freaky hands aesthetic purposes are aesthetic. Let them be aesthetic. You shouldn't have to fight tooth an nail for something that just looks cool. There's just so much red tape right now that every one's a cookie cutter. No draco liches skipping and singing in Cordor sure. But let there be some flexibility for some folks.

*On top of that this cycles back in to the type of dms the dm team accepts either its my way or the highway the team doe snot really accept folks who do not have the same OPINIONS on the setting as them. Things not set as fact are enforced as fact as some few players choose to enforce their own play style on the entirety of the server. It's a make believe game allow for some flexibility and let others have their fun. You may not like it but you don't have to stand there and play with them you can play with folks in a different area away from slight oddities. Simply allowing people more flexibility will certainly allow folks much more freedom and more folks will enjoy the server again. Not every one enjoys the strict black or white view that gets enforced, for them it takes away from the beauty of role playing.



*Things have been removed rather than expanded upon or developed. Why not add a new chamber to the Beast mean caves? RP plot reason they sought an EVEN FURTHER down location to build an altar to some demon they are worshiping. Small changes that aren't that big a deal toolset wise if done properly can actually make a grad deal of interest and plot for roleplay for a good while. The Magic out post in the lowlands delta can have some magi student cause a huge magical accident who's ramifications radiate out in to the swamp lands could also be another simple plot point that can offer new venture and spice up what's been going on in a relatively un established un played in area. Warftown and the Wave and serpent can have an expedition o charger and settle new lands. This would be a wonderful call to a campaign like King maker and be an amazing opportunity for some characters to be useful in their roles and give the dms tons of material for a server wide campaign. competition and so forth. There's tons of ways to do this that I feel just aren't being explored, and sadly so.


Yaaaay.



I feel that lack of communication is at fault here or being un able to understand one another is the true culprit.



Our tool set allows this as a use of tail slots and I think it was Mahtan that had set it up for such a long while ago? I can go in to the tool set now and make a set of guards mounted on horses rather easily so.


Nodal wise it's a matter of placing things in the tool set. It would be a minor yet easy step to help. Especially in more wooded areas.


I like it best when dm's work together on plots I think they are executed better and come across more well rounded. I would encourage more team work between dms.


Compromise? Why not make it a cap of like 1 lvl's worth of xp can not be exceeded with in a 24 hour period? Does that sound fair? Or is there some other combination that could be more fair? I know if some one hordes materials with the way it was before they could get a lot of xp. But I think if they put in the work to get everything then they should gain it justly because I think the Job system is a wondrous way for non violent characters to exist in the setting and no one really uses their jobs much any more.



There was a scripted who offered to do this in the past and was more than ready to get his fingers in to it and help clean it up. He was told not to touch it. If some one was willing to do this and put in the time and effort as a competent scripter would it be okay to fix/ clean up this system?


See above.



I really really reallly really really really REALLY hope so. <3



Babylon? I heard form one of our server's most famous grinders that babylon lost the mechanics that made it 'fun' and 'interesting'... why? why not add some new stuff? I understand Dicey is working on new bosses and I applaud him and full heartedly look forwards to some fun stuff.


Shameless! Shameless Plugging ! But it is a step in the right direction.

*As I understand certain scripts have already been rejected when offere dup by players. Why? IS it because the scripters who are on teh team have a differnt style of scrippting and do not under stand / follow the scripts otehrs make? I know various scripters have differnt method sofr getting the same end results. Is this the reason they have been rejected?

Yaaaaaaaaay.

<3

*I see this not so much. I've had the unfortunate experience of expressly asking particular DM's for help with Crystal for example to be left in the dark or left to my own devices. Once a week or once a month would be fine with me honest. I see other special characters on the server that are new that haven't really been fused with for example I saw Gnoll... wouldn't be interesting to see him interact with some beast men that approach him?

Just an example.

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1. Temporary fresh DM
We already have that. Called Guest Story Telling.

2. DMs not allowed to play when being a DM
Hardly anyone would want the job. Additionally those who would, would loose touch with the server super quick.

3. Everchanging DMs
That is already happening far too often and it isn't a good thing. It leads to unfinished stuff and people being frustrated because of inconsistency.

4. Whom do we trust to be a DM? Friends?
No. It has nothing to do with friends. I don't even know most people here OOC. Trusting with DM job entails
- no serious and repeating rulebreaks
- someone who has been around a bit and shown he knows the server some and isn't likely to vanish the next day
- someone who has shown to start RP on their own, preferably involving others
- someone who has shown to be emotionally stable and level-headed and can handle some stress situations without going berserk (now everyone can rant and get angry at times, speaking of a general stability here)

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Afraid not. The issue has to do with the SQL database connection with the server and how that is all managed with the job systems more than anything. The only one who can make changes to that system without breaking it would be Disco, and he is also the only one with access for that reason.


Yeah Babylon was really neat but also was damn near impossible for a lot of characters and builds from what I understand. I am definitely in agreement that different boss mechanics would be nice and I would love to work on them. Faction system, bug fixes, some other stuff on my to do list, epic weapon ore mechanics, and then maybe some of this stuff.



Usually they are just done poorly. For instance,

Lets say I am making a fireball spell.

I need to check for the caster level, the target of the caster, and make the appropriate variables to store all this information.

We need to do a check to see if they have a focus in a spell, if they do what version? Are they using spell max, extend, empower, etc?

After that you have to do a SR check, do an evasion check, roll for the damage, take in account of any spell focus additions, and if the spell is empowered/extended/etc. Then you have to go about applying the damage, for fireball specifically you need to apply this in an aoe around the target while attaching the proper visuals.

There is a lot of factors that go into spells. It isnt as simple as straight applying damage, etc.

It is a lot to teach as well and if someone is really interested I rather have them join the team so they can benefit the entire server.

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Active
Levexal
Techsmith Tokas Tokersun - http://amiaworld.net/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=88661

Can we get this stickied?


Afraid not. The issue has to do with the SQL database connection with the server and how that is all managed with the job systems more than anything. The only one who can make changes to that system without breaking it would be Disco, and he is also the only one with access for that reason.

Could a copy be made and worked on from there with out the back up being corrupted? Or is that considered a big No because other important things are attached as well that you guys don't want being distributed?

Yeah Babylon was really neat but also was damn near impossible for a lot of characters and builds from what I understand. I am definitely in agreement that different boss mechanics would be nice and I would love to work on them. Faction system, bug fixes, some other stuff on my to do list, epic weapon ore mechanics, and then maybe some of this stuff.

I believe Glim was working on some stuff like the 4 horsemen mechanics and for some DarkHold goodness. Did he happen to leave any of that or would any one be interested in picking it up if he offered it?

Usually they are just done poorly. For instance,

Lets say I am making a fireball spell.

I need to check for the caster level, the target of the caster, and make the appropriate variables to store all this information.

We need to do a check to see if they have a focus in a spell, if they do what version? Are they using spell max, extend, empower, etc?

After that you have to do a SR check, do an evasion check, roll for the damage, take in account of any spell focus additions, and if the spell is empowered/extended/etc. Then you have to go about applying the damage, for fireball specifically you need to apply this in an aoe around the target while attaching the proper visuals.

There is a lot of factors that go into spells. It isnt as simple as straight applying damage, etc.

It is a lot to teach as well and if someone is really interested I rather have them join the team so they can benefit the entire server.

Understandable it's a big tree of branches and checks. It is how scripting is to be done. A suggestion would be to stream line the posses and make a script that is more of a template for such so that way it cuts the work down a bit and helps set the basic framing for a spell.

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edit; I missed the page this was resolved

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