AMIA ARCHIVE • View topic

I believe something like this needs discussed. We have lost some good players over the time and very few new ones are coming. We need to discuss the growing issue.

This is a valid thread. I am not sure myself but the shrinking playerbase do not really utilize itself well on such a big server as Amia. :cry:

It's been mentioned in multiple threads before at least a dozen times by various people, gone and current. OOC issues seems to be predominantly the cause of people leaving. Most of the player base acknowledges this. Any change has to come from the players if they want things to improve. Stop mixing IC/OOC and talk the problems out civilly rather than mud-slinging, then maybe folks will return. Just my input.

Revak wrote:

It's been mentioned in multiple threads before at least a dozen times by various people, gone and current. OOC issues seems to be predominantly the cause of people leaving. Most of the player base acknowledges this. Any change has to come from the players if they want things to improve. Stop mixing IC/OOC and talk the problems out civilly rather than mud-slinging, then maybe folks will return. Just my input.

Well said Revak.

Yes of course, but there need to be dedication to it, the crew need to support it and stand behind such a move. So all pull in the same direction to do something about it all.

Who owns Amia? Who is the head admin? Sometimes it feels like the big honcho is not showing themself and it is leaderless or how to put it. Hands off works at times but it seems the crew is really understaffed and do all they can but this might have neglected the "policing" of the ooc mess that hapens.

Revaks comments are the hard bottom line. We bitch about, and openly acknowledge the problem, then just keep on as we were.

Disco doesn't show himself, you're right, but then again he shouldn't have to all the time, if any time at all. And the DM's have no 'leader' per se.

Even then, they shouldn't have to police us to keep us IC and stop OOC chatter (especially during events imo, we should all stay IC for important stuff like that, idk why people get so off track with ooc talks). Granted, issues that arise OOCly, and sometimes even outside the game should be handled properly by the players involved, hopefully in a manner that doesn't ruffle feathers.

It has been said before, sadly the main problem is IC stuff reaching OOC. And, as it was said above, it will not change until all the community changes.
We have been saying this in dozens of threads before, we always come to the same conclusion but nothing changes.... it even keeps happening and that may bring the server to it's on end. At the same time it allows us to make the change, as the main problem is 100% on our account.

Problem is, this is common on all servers, but why is it such an issue here?

Budly wrote:

Problem is, this is common on all servers, but why is it such an issue here?

Because people demonize evil RP players to the point where they flat out ignore them when most of them are chill af people. I did it years ago and i've felt like a dick ever since. If people actually spoke to the people behind the characters and realise they aren't attacking them personally and it's just IC reasons for it, then we'd have an easier time. You get people making the fault on each side, it's not just evil folk.

Sorry if this comes off ranty, but as Analog said:

Analog Kid wrote:

We bitch about, and openly acknowledge the problem, then just keep on as we were.

My experience is that other servers hold accountable those that cause and perpetuate problems. It doesn't happen effectively. Some problems require a hard hand. I've yet to see the staff here have the balls to deal with the ROOT of a problem efficently, or effectively enough to solve it. Too often is it for a fear of offending someone, or appearing too 'harsh' "give them an inch, they'll take a mile"

What Analog said again, too.

Revak wrote:

Because people demonize evil RP players to the point where they flat out ignore them when most of them are chill af people. I did it years ago and i've felt like a dick ever since. If people actually spoke to the people behind the characters and realise they aren't attacking them personally and it's just IC reasons for it, then we'd have an easier time. You get people making the fault on each side, it's not just evil folk.

This, pretty much. Whenever people become "antagonists", it has always become a server-wide, faction-wide purpose to make sure the perpetrators do not have a chance to make competition to the "good" folk of Amia, and hence, get tired of being hunted on sight for trying to provide conflict, and everyone is safe again. Everyone suddenly becomes friends when it's time to publicly lynch the person that had the balls to provide you with non-DM conflict on a small scale level.

Revak wrote:

Budly wrote:

Problem is, this is common on all servers, but why is it such an issue here?

Because people demonize evil RP players to the point where they flat out ignore them when most of them are chill af people. I did it years ago and i've felt like a dick ever since. If people actually spoke to the people behind the characters and realise they aren't attacking them personally and it's just IC reasons for it, then we'd have an easier time. You get people making the fault on each side, it's not just evil folk.

This, very much this. I was outright ignored for playing Tarkulian. Literally had a character say, "Those that are from Tarkuul are poopyheads.". No, it wasn't a hin, and that was all the rp I got from them. Most just turned their nose up and ignored me completely. Lots of fun, let me tell ya.

Idk where AnalogKid's post went, but here was my reply:

The problem is not responding to local conflict. The problem is that this conflict is handled like a DM plot. Let's say someone is terrorizing Bendir. Well, they're going to alert Kholingen, Winya Ravana, Cordor, Wharftown, Wiltun and every other "good" settlement instead of trying to deal with local conflict. Evil doesn't have the population of good and is something confined to interracting with itself in Tarkuul, Shadowscape or Underdark. It's fun to be able to clash on the surface, it's just that it's easy for good people to stack the odds and never lose.

I keep getting a "sql" error and told to contact board admin if the problem persists?

Lets see if this works.... My post was this...

The social majority on amia is goodly. How can it be reasonably expected for the goodly to be ok with a known and recognizable evil?

That Guy wrote:

Revak wrote:

Budly wrote:

Problem is, this is common on all servers, but why is it such an issue here?

Because people demonize evil RP players to the point where they flat out ignore them when most of them are chill af people. I did it years ago and i've felt like a dick ever since. If people actually spoke to the people behind the characters and realise they aren't attacking them personally and it's just IC reasons for it, then we'd have an easier time. You get people making the fault on each side, it's not just evil folk.

This, very much this. I was outright ignored for playing Tarkulian. Literally had a character say, "Those that are from Tarkuul are poopyheads.". No, it wasn't a hin, and that was all the rp I got from them. Most just turned their nose up and ignored me completely. Lots of fun, let me tell ya.

Haha, yeah, Budly and Roach ended on "neutral at least" terms in the end.

Was genuinely fun RP.

LunarBloom wrote:

Idk where AnalogKid's post went, but here was my reply:

The problem is not responding to local conflict. The problem is that this conflict is handled like a DM plot. Let's say someone is terrorizing Bendir. Well, they're going to alert Kholingen, Winya Ravana, Cordor, Wharftown, Wiltun and every other "good" settlement instead of trying to deal with local conflict. Evil doesn't have the population of good and is something confined to interracting with itself in Tarkuul, Shadowscape or Underdark. It's fun to be able to clash on the surface, it's just that it's easy for good people to stack the odds and never lose.

Once again, that is the social majority. Team evil needs to find a way to be part of the status quo, not bang their heads against it, then complain when the obvious and overwhelming odds put them down. Please take that as a general statement, and not a personal attack on anyone.

The social "majority" is only see so because it encompasses, usually, good aligned and neutral aligned players. It's unfortunately not representative of the ressources of the realms, they just have the most active playerbase. However, it's how Amia has always been; it wants to stay a good surface, and letting evil take over would be bad on an OOC level as it would harm the population. I don't think evil isn't winning because of IC reasoning, but only because that's how we, OOC'ly, want to keep it as to be able to maintain an healthy community.

LunarBloom wrote:

The social "majority" is only see so because it encompasses, usually, good aligned and neutral aligned players. It's unfortunately not representative of the ressources of the realms, they just have the most active playerbase. However, it's how Amia has always been; it wants to stay a good surface, and letting evil take over would be bad on an OOC level as it would harm the population. I don't think evil isn't winning because of IC reasoning, but only because that's how we, OOC'ly, want to keep it as to be able to maintain an healthy community.

But....the major centers are good. kohlingen, winya, bendir, cordor (more or less), the mostly active player base.... That's kinda what makes it the social majority. Any demand or requirement, on any level with any definition, to let evil be what they are asking to be, only invalidates the 'overwhelming' odds that make up those players with their goodly characters. Their time and investment at neutralizing evil is as valid as the evils wanting to be evil. In my opinion, the majority must rule, and the rest need learn how to adapt until they can change their situation on their own terms. That excludes an ooc desire to be allowed to do something that would otherwise be out of place or commonly unacceptable.

That's only encompassing violent, out-right evil. Passive/manipulative/infiltrative evil doesn't have the DM oversight to strive productively.

Analog Kid wrote:

LunarBloom wrote:

The social "majority" is only see so because it encompasses, usually, good aligned and neutral aligned players. It's unfortunately not representative of the ressources of the realms, they just have the most active playerbase. However, it's how Amia has always been; it wants to stay a good surface, and letting evil take over would be bad on an OOC level as it would harm the population. I don't think evil isn't winning because of IC reasoning, but only because that's how we, OOC'ly, want to keep it as to be able to maintain an healthy community.

But....the major centers are good. kohlingen, winya, bendir, cordor (more or less), the mostly active player base.... That's kinda what makes it the social majority. Any demand or requirement, on any level with any definition, to let evil be what they are asking to be, only invalidates the 'overwhelming' odds that make up those players with their goodly characters. Their time and investment at neutralizing evil is as valid as the evils wanting to be evil. In my opinion, the majority must rule, and the rest need learn how to adapt until they can change their situation on their own terms. That excludes an ooc desire to be allowed to do something that would otherwise be out of place or commonly unacceptable.

I agree with that, but only if the good or evil characters effort are done by RPing and not taking to OOC level or ignoring other people characters on their face.
We can agree to disagree, that's for sure, but lets at least create some RPing as for the "hostility". It's way more fun that way... and also that way you don't drive people out of the server.
Obviously this isn't for anyone in particular, as it may sound as an attack!

Alright. So instead of bemoaning our shortcomings as a playerbase and server for the umpteenth time, let's make a game plan. This may need a new thread, but this is something that could greatly improve our situation. There are a dozen things we can do to preserve our current interests, but most of them have been said a dozen different ways. That effort will always be ongoing, but what we might need to look into now--if we simply want a larger playerbase--is getting the word out there more about Amia.

THE GAME PLAN

1. Get Amia on a NWN Server List

I've heard this one multiple times. There are still lists out there for servers that people go through. I'm not sure how hard it would be, but it seems like a good idea.

2. Amian Info threads on Reddit/RP Forums

r/neverwinternights
r/DnD
r/rpg_gamers
r/rpg
r/games

Let's show what we are to people who are looking for a place to RP. If anyone wants to take initiative and draft a sort of "who-we-are" to post on any of these reddits, go right ahead. Otherwise, I'll probably take a crack at it. I'm going to look at what these reddits' policies on "advertising" and such are.

3. Amian Introduction Video/Youtube Tutorial

As someone currently getting RL friends involved with Amia, a big barrier is the setup process. Once we have people interested with point 2, they have to walk themselves through the process of installing the game, downloading the HAK, and getting acclimated to how NWN works.

Starting some sort of Amia Youtube channel would be a good source of publicity as well as being a resource people can use before they've fully gotten onto our own forum.

4. GOG-Fund and Grassroot Efforts

NWN Diamond Edition is $9.99 on GOG. While it's not a lot, prospective players may be leery to spend money on an old game, not knowing how to install it, not knowing how to play, not knowing if there will be people there to play with if they do get the thing installed. If we could start some sort of fund, perhaps for players that seem really interested in the game but just aren't that sure about buying it themselves, that may be an avenue for new players. I've considered doing the same thing at my local game shop, running a meeting for people interested in an online RP venue and offering to pay for a few games myself. What do they have to lose at that point? If you find yourself in a position to do the same, go for it.

I'm willing to take point on 2 and 3, but I honestly suck at video editing and don't like narration. All the same, putting forth plans but never offering to follow through is not something I like to do. Anyone interested in making any of these things happen feel free to PM me or respond here. If it gets enough interest, I'll make it its own thread.

Dark Immolation wrote:

Alright. So instead of bemoaning our shortcomings as a playerbase and server for the umpteenth time, let's make a game plan. This may need a new thread, but this is something that could greatly improve our situation. There are a dozen things we can do to preserve our current interests, but most of them have been said a dozen different ways. That effort will always be ongoing, but what we might need to look into now--if we simply want a larger playerbase--is getting the word out there more about Amia.

THE GAME PLAN

1. Get Amia on a NWN Server List

I've heard this one multiple times. There are still lists out there for servers that people go through. I'm not sure how hard it would be, but it seems like a good idea.

2. Amian Info threads on Reddit/RP Forums

r/neverwinternights
r/DnD
r/rpg_gamers
r/rpg
r/games

Let's show what we are to people who are looking for a place to RP. If anyone wants to take initiative and draft a sort of "who-we-are" to post on any of these reddits, go right ahead. Otherwise, I'll probably take a crack at it. I'm going to look at what these reddits' policies on "advertising" and such are.

3. Amian Introduction Video/Youtube Tutorial

As someone currently getting RL friends involved with Amia, a big barrier is the setup process. Once we have people interested with point 2, they have to walk themselves through the process of installing the game, downloading the HAK, and getting acclimated to how NWN works.

Starting some sort of Amia Youtube channel would be a good source of publicity as well as being a resource people can use before they've fully gotten onto our own forum.

4. GOG-Fund and Grassroot Efforts

NWN Diamond Edition is $9.99 on GOG. While it's not a lot, prospective players may be leery to spend money on an old game, not knowing how to install it, not knowing how to play, not knowing if there will be people there to play with if they do get the thing installed. If we could start some sort of fund, perhaps for players that seem really interested in the game but just aren't that sure about buying it themselves, that may be an avenue for new players. I've considered doing the same thing at my local game shop, running a meeting for people interested in an online RP venue and offering to pay for a few games myself. What do they have to lose at that point? If you find yourself in a position to do the same, go for it.

I'm willing to take point on 2 and 3, but I honestly suck at video editing and don't like narration. All the same, putting forth plans but never offering to follow through is not something I like to do. Anyone interested in making any of these things happen feel free to PM me or respond here. If it gets enough interest, I'll make it its own thread.

These are GREAT ideas!

As I said 200 times, we should also been in the NWPAD event but it never got anywhere for us. 15 year anniversay would been a good PR for our server. :cry:

LunarBloom wrote:

That's only encompassing violent, out-right evil. Passive/manipulative/infiltrative evil doesn't have the DM oversight to strive productively.

That is a problem for the staff then, and should have nothing to do the the majority player base as previously illustrated.

Alright. So, from reading this, here is some of the problems that have came up.

- "Villians" get treated poorly and those who take the roles get shit rp from the "heroes"

It is a good point, but it is expected.

The problem is that there is no real fix to this on in the player aspect to it, however, there could be a way to help remedy it.

What if every settlement had its own individual goal that it worked towards? Such as cordor desiring the acrument of wealth, goulderand using its lumber to produce its own trade, bendir profiting from the trade between north and south amia, in which acting as a toll booth. Kohligin would do what ever it does, for it seems more so like that scene from monty python and the holy grail, and tarkuul the exploration of knowledge.
But back to the point, instead of attempting to have a good/evil conflict, why not work towards a goal while acting within your character's alignment. for example, tarkuul is a magocracy who enjoys arcane exploration, why not gather slaves for tarkuul to provide for it. hell, i know arelith has a script that would be perfect for that. None the less, a settlement needs to have a goal that players can actively work at. Cordor needs to be rebuilt, perhaps they could attempt to attract wealthy merchants to their city to provide the gold flow to pay for all the things the government needs to do.
However, perhaps this is the only way we can provide for the server, to have a steady stream of plot beyond the occational bad guy attacking something good. Right now, the settlements are "lol don't care", and they need to care about something. Instead of just building for the sake of building, there needs to be a way that the players can contribute, and once there work is done, reap the rewards from their hard labor. I was just speaking to a player who had left and he/she told me that amia is dead, and he is right.
The only way a persistant world can survive is by having a healthy player base and be evolving to meet the needs of that player base. I mean, honestly, I had more times that not I have felt the server did not meet my needs, and from those I have spoke to, that their needs were not met, and from how I understand it, your needs are not being met as well. So, why not just quit amia and go to arelith or sinfar? Is it because there is potential on amia that none of the other servers do not have? If so, then we need to tap into it.
We need to make amia more about each and every character, group and organization, we need to encourage growth and change, and we need to build a server that can cater to the needs of each and every individual who plays on it. If we do not, then why not go to arelith of sinfar?

The Little Dragon wrote:

We need to make amia more about each and every character, group and organization, we need to encourage growth and change, and we need to build a server that can cater to the needs of each and every individual who plays on it. If we do not, then why not go to arelith of sinfar?

I agree with that statement, but I have to point out that it's not like the style of RP is so similar between the three servers that most will just up and switch out of the blue. Why not go to Arelith? Because I dont get hype ovet +2 weapons. And as far Sinfar, well, I'll leave the low hanging fruit of sexual puns be.

People end up where they want to be. It's up to us to make ourselves the the most attractive Amia we can be, not worry about people running off to other servers that better suit what they're already looking for(dirt-poor power level or secksytime). It's not a competition. We are all running our own race. Forgetting that was a mistake we already made years ago when we tried to make ourselves WoW-lite in some ways.

Playing opposition gets tiring, I do agree with that. Constantly having to be ready to defend both RP and PvP. Getting out of such is near impossible too, as some see reputation of old char skips to the next one.

For me the hard thing is inability to get attached to anything here. I just walk around Amia at times, try to RP but I just dont seem to get into anything. When trying to get more involved in plots, there is no response. I just feel Amia caters for the few, I am sorry.

It is shame to see Roach go, what short experience had with that character I enjoyed it. While my char had no much respect for Tarkuliaans, at least we had more or less polite conversation and that RP should be about. Know your enemies.

We do try to punish people who cause OOC issue. But every try we do there is an outcry of rage from the playerbase of how they do not trust us with it and that they demand public display and "Ttanspiracy" of every single punishment, so that they may never be able to play on the server ever again, because clearly, punishment can only be trusted if "the mob" gets a public display and can toss some stones and rotten tomatoes, because surely that must help.

Sorry for the harsh words, but that has greatly bothered me for years, and basically eventually grinded me down from trying to vigerously defend our playerbase to "meh, whatever, it will just end in a ranting spree either way".

Another issue is if you look at every single thread devs/designers made with changes, all they get is slaps in the faces. Cries of outrage over every little change. And I do not speak of posts like "hey this needs a little tweaking I think", but about "OMG WTF you doing so OP, so OP or YOU RUIN everything!!!" up to "but you should have done X and X an Y and Z FIRST!!!" which grinded our design team basically to dust and left us with maybe 3-4 active designers/devs and that is a probably far too generous count.

Without our designers, the server will however stagnate. But our designers get burned out by every little change being met with nothing but outcry.

We wanted to add very very beautiful new heads years ago. Most of them being an override to the standard NWN very old vanilla heads that do not even have tattoo options. Know why it was never done? Because when the dev team said it would be done, they were met with a huge outcry and hissy fit about how they must preserve favorite head Nr. x of player who likely has not played amia in years and prolly honestly has not played amia in years already at the point but simply still has an opinion on everything. So taking the full head package apart, for every little whimsey that needs to be tended, would have been a tremendous amount of extra work, no dev was willing to do it and here it sits still, and still leaves us with the shitty old vanilla default old heads I do not ever see anyone use.

And yes, that has been another big issue noone wants to address. The forum ghouls. The players that just sit her and whine and gripe about things they do not even experience and have not in years because they have not played the game in years and simply for some reason have nothing better to do with their lives, but sit here and gripe and ruin it for everyone who actually still plays.

Disco, has nothing to do with the server anymore, except for being so kind to still host it, despite of that. So please do not bother him, he does not have the time, won't and does not want to do anything with it anymore, other than being our generous host.

Well now this was my time to rant.

I get to rant too once, everyone else does it all the time afterall.

Proceed.

I agree.

I think we need to speak as a whole community towards goals we'd all like to see. Goals that are possible, fair and things that would not only keep Amia alive but possibly get new players / old players (back).

For example:

- A plot like Arcanium, from what I've learned, ran a LOT of players dry. Such plot should be avoided if all possible, though understandable if rp leads to it.

- I think it would benefit the community if we all start focusing on objectives. Not just sitting around and rping (which is OK). Not just leveling / epic hunting (which is OK).

- I'd like to suggest we start focusing heavily on the active and unactive areas. By this I mean the active areas already have attention. Bendir Dale is one of the most active spots on the server, a place you can get rp, and that's awesome. But lets start focusing on other areas like Cordor, WharfTown, e.t.c. I mean this player-base and maybe DM-base. DMs can start small events in uncharted areas to see if even possible individuals are interested in less populated areas. Players? Start trying to work on getting other areas involved in rp.

(Directed to Amarice)

I agree. 100%. I try to keep my individual dislikes to myself as its a game all together and doesn't hurt me. I love the fact that the Devs and DMs work constantly to provide a great community for us. Do I disagree with some judgments / actions / projects? Possibly. But all together if it is deemed appropriate by the team I can't argue.

For the DMs and Devs that have been harassed, disrespected, discouraged, e.t.c.

"Thank you for all the hard work. I regret to hear situations where you've been criticized. While it is part of the /role/, in ways, it still isn't fun to hear it. Especially since you're doing things for free, and expect nothing but to entertain the player base."

EDIT:

I did what I could with Tarkuul to keep it as active as I could. I might not be a "leader" type individual, or my character just might not have meant to be in any position to do things appropriately. I don't expect individuals to dedicate their life to the character / position / e.t.c. But even the smallest effort can get the greatest outcome.

Well we have been trying (and still do) to work on plots that get everyone involved. No matter what settlement and good or evil. The Magic, Magic, where are you plot is one that will be going for a bit and that can be joined potentially by everyone.

Same goes for the smaller events of the guild which have no real alignment restriction.

Not really relevant for this currentl plot but for other plots of mine that have been and are to come:

Yes, of course, if you want to join the evil NPC, instead of fighting them, of course it is an option. It can be done and is welcomed to add some extra spice to the plot.

For those who remember my Hobgoblin/Orc/Bugbear plot.... the attack of Wharftown and that the Malarites joined in the attack to cause more destruction? Was 100% player influenced. It was not the idea of my NPCs, but of a PC.

I will admit that I am a bit biased to disagree in some sense with ability to join. I just dont see specific RP that I would like to pursue having any real value in the events. Hence, the few last times I have joined, I've just focused on skills rolling in hopes of anything. Perhaps I need to adjust and be more open and not let old experiences shadow the potential new.

Can't really speak for anyone but myself, for one.

But with me? Yeah you'd need to be more specific then to toss some random rolls in a plot with usually half a dozen or more people around. For one I wouldn't even know what you try to accomplish there unless you mention it. Random rolls with no explanation as of what you are trying to achieve there usually just lead to a brief confusion and a quick "what's that for?" in the best of times when 6 other people are not trying to do something the same time and it simply gets drowned.

You don't need to be open to everyone about what you try to accomplish there, just send the DM a message "hey I would like to try to get some secret signal to NPC X that I want to talk to them/slip them a note/whatever.

I believe, in general, we could just use people logging on. Numbers attract numbers. There is a high level of forum lurkers and not enough people logging in. Just log in, come see the state of the game. Make a new login, go incognito, start a new character. Bury the past and look forward.

Oh, did not mean that. I have learned to do that these days, instead of going rolling from A to Z without explanations.

Anyhow, just wanted to explore my view on this topic, which I see is done for my part.

Glad to see it is staying civil and positive.

Then what if we built the module so that the plots had minor change, Show how pcs can influence the server and then we could create a system where these changes could be implimented in a timely fashion.

Something I thought could work on this line would be making cordor a bunch of doors that do not go anywhere, when a player brings a project to us, we teach them how to build their project and then it gets implimented into the server at some point. Sinfar has system like this and it has created aplenty interesting areas. They tell you what areas you can use and how big they can be, and that is it. everything else is left to the player. problem with implimenting this is that we do not have the cloud needed to impliment this purely through players, but could be worked around if players worked what they wanted themselves, then submitted it to the dev team.

Amarice-Elaraliel wrote:

Another issue is if you look at every single thread devs/designers made with changes, all they get is slaps in the faces. Cries of outrage over every little change. And I do not speak of posts like "hey this needs a little tweaking I think", but about "OMG WTF you doing so OP, so OP or YOU RUIN everything!!!" up to "but you should have done X and X an Y and Z FIRST!!!" which grinded our design team basically to dust and left us with maybe 3-4 active designers/devs and that is a probably far too generous count.

Without our designers, the server will however stagnate. But our designers get burned out by every little change being met with nothing but outcry.

We wanted to add very very beautiful new heads years ago. Most of them being an override to the standard NWN very old vanilla heads that do not even have tattoo options. Know why it was never done? Because when the dev team said it would be done, they were met with a huge outcry and hissy fit about how they must preserve favorite head Nr. x of player who likely has not played amia in years and prolly honestly has not played amia in years already at the point but simply still has an opinion on everything. So taking the full head package apart, for every little whimsey that needs to be tended, would have been a tremendous amount of extra work, no dev was willing to do it and here it sits still, and still leaves us with the shitty old vanilla default old heads I do not ever see anyone use.

This, so much this.

This is primarily a reason I am not going to try to poke someone to see about getting back on the dev team. While I was one the extremely lucky ones when I made Belenoth, freshened up Forrstakkr, and did the Troglodyte dungeon redesign, I also saw some of my team mates being bashed and beaten down from outrageous cries from their own areas, or balance changes, or monster redesigns. It made me afraid to continue doing work for the dev team, despite having to originally leave due to health problems. I know myself well enough to know that if I received the type of vitriol that I saw my team mates receive I would have promptly gone off and made an ass of myself, probably yelling, "Well, if you think you know better, you do it and see how well it goes." I really dislike it when people who make no effort to do the work themselves bash and beat down others who do have the initiative to at least try. It leaves a sour taste in my mouth and it usually isn't something I deal well with.

Actually, I don't have time to deal with it. Making areas for people who are likely going to spit in my face for doing it isn't something I want to waste what little free time I have on. I have a five year old ADHD daughter who needs me until she goes to sleep.

So you guys, if you (general you, I don't mean EVERYONE) want area changes, try being more polite to those who actually do the work. Even if it takes months until there is a dev member who is able to do the work you need/want done, be polite. Don't go slinging shit around and get in their faces, because more than likely, you're going to make that person ask what the hell is the point of even doing this, and make them never want to touch toolset again for Amia. I'm not saying don't speak up if something is done you're not particularly fond of, but for the love of God, there's no reason to be an absolute dick about it.

Last edited by Commie on Mon, Aug 14 2017, 22:53 PM, edited 1 time in total.

I don't want the server to stagnate, but I don't know what I'm supposed to do.

Since at least the beginning of last winter we've tried to get a DM to do anything with our faction, anything at all, and nothing. I've had DM's ask me for a PM with details about what's going on or whats planned, I send it, no reply.

It went on for so long, the utter silence from anyone on top, that our faction just dried up. We got chastised for not helping Amia island with plots ooc, when the decision to NOT help with problem was an IC one.

And that's really the problem, this place is billed as a living world where actions have consequences, but that's just not the case. It took well over a year to get 4 npc's added to the module. It took almost 9 months to get a blue transition to an already existing area hooked up. In the mean time our RP was just wheel spinning, and DM's wouldn't touch our group of players as each previous DM opened but then didn't close any plots, so we had about 5 DM plots on hold we couldn't advance w/o a DM (because we can't go to places w/o a DM when they don't exist in module). We pushed PC on PC plots, as a faction, set people to work doing things to PC's, but that had an enormous backlash despite, again, being an IC thing spilling into an OOC discord/skype none of us were even in or a part of.

So our DM plots stagnated and we had no way to interact with them as we had no DM, our PC on PC plots ended in victory for us, but again, we couldn't go anywhere or do anything with it as w/o a DM there is no 'living world' as you can't -do- anything without oversight and approval, and when you can't even get someone to log on to let you talk to NPC's, how are you supposed to institute anything of any size?

The silence became, and has become, deafening. I know I've said it before, back in March I just opened up a faction plea topic for DM support as our faction had dwindled from 20 or so down to 5, and still, nothing.

This is really problematic, our faction was wholesale banned from many cities, and continues to be, and because of that we can't even get near places w/o 'metagaming,' but there's nobody to help. Our names are on a list, so now we need DM approval to go places, ok, would work if anyone would help, but no, PM's and tells don't get responded to. I get a green tell from some random PC when walking across Minmir bridge, "Why are you near silver dragon guards you're banned stop metagaming guards." Ok, guess that's life for being evil. I literally can't argue at this point.

Now here we are, in Bendir yet again, which is where everyone sits as there's simply no real reason to do much else as you can't interact with the world UNLESS a DM is on. And as for plots, im not even convinced we would be allowed to participate and run against the 'intended' path. What if we wanted to help the guys fucking up the traders in the plot we got flack for not 'participating' in? Could we? I know the Shadowflames were told OOC they could not remove the Wiltun guards from their lands, or resist Fortress Wiltun in any actual capacity, so what chance do we have to do anything? Is it even possible to succeed here if you're the 'opposition?' Has the server just been so cultivated that this is the final end-state?

The illusion of the living world is gone, and that's what initially drew me in to NWN. Now that I've been here so long I just see cracks everywhere as unfinished remnants of plots just lie around forever unfinished and unresolved. Stairways to magical stones that should have been removed but just sit there broken, non-hostile undead PC's guarding rooms that have been IC dealt with literal years ago, quest NPC's that hand out broken quests, NPC's that ask how you like *city that's been removed for at least 3 years,* doors leading to nothing...

And everyone's just sitting in Bendir, because you just can't do anything on your own, and when you do try (Our crystal plot for example), you just get told "no," after doing a shit-load of leg-work.

And I think that's the worst part, you get told not to rely on DM's, but when you try and do things as PC's, it isn't recognized, or is outright refused. I hear there's a sentiment that the server is just how it is, and there's no way to destroy, tear down, or negatively effect any of its institutions anymore.

And that would be fine, if the server was a wax museum, which over the last year, I've begun to feel like it is.

edit; clarified which fort I was talking about

Moogle wrote:

Amarice-Elaraliel wrote:

Another issue is if you look at every single thread devs/designers made with changes, all they get is slaps in the faces. Cries of outrage over every little change. And I do not speak of posts like "hey this needs a little tweaking I think", but about "OMG WTF you doing so OP, so OP or YOU RUIN everything!!!" up to "but you should have done X and X an Y and Z FIRST!!!" which grinded our design team basically to dust and left us with maybe 3-4 active designers/devs and that is a probably far too generous count.

Without our designers, the server will however stagnate. But our designers get burned out by every little change being met with nothing but outcry.

We wanted to add very very beautiful new heads years ago. Most of them being an override to the standard NWN very old vanilla heads that do not even have tattoo options. Know why it was never done? Because when the dev team said it would be done, they were met with a huge outcry and hissy fit about how they must preserve favorite head Nr. x of player who likely has not played amia in years and prolly honestly has not played amia in years already at the point but simply still has an opinion on everything. So taking the full head package apart, for every little whimsey that needs to be tended, would have been a tremendous amount of extra work, no dev was willing to do it and here it sits still, and still leaves us with the shitty old vanilla default old heads I do not ever see anyone use.

This, so much this.

This is primarily a reason I am not going to try to poke someone to see about getting back on the dev team. While I was one the extremely lucky ones when I made Belenoth, freshened up Forrstakkr, and did the Troglodyte dungeon redesign, I also saw some of my team mates being bashed and beaten down from outrageous cries from their own areas, or balance changes, or monster redesigns. It made me afraid to continue doing work for the dev team, despite having to originally leave due to health problems. I know myself well enough to know that if I received the type of vitriol that I saw my team mates receive I would have promptly gone off and made an ass of myself, probably yelling, "Well, if you think you know better, you do it and see how well it goes." I really dislike it when people who make no effort to do the work themselves bash and beat down others who do have the initiative to at least try. It leaves a sour taste in my mouth and it usually isn't something I deal well with.

Actually, I don't have time to deal with it. Making areas for people who are likely going to spit in my face for doing it isn't something I want to waste what little free time I have on. I have a five year old ADHD daughter who needs me until she goes to sleep.

So you guys, if you (general you, I don't mean EVERYONE) want area changes, try being more polite to those who actually do the work. Even if it takes months until there is a dev member who is able to do the work you need/want done, be polite. Don't go slinging shit around and get in their faces, because more than likely, you're going to make that person ask what the hell is the point of even doing this, and make them never want to touch toolset again for Amia. I'm not saying don't speak up if something is done you're not particularly fond of, but for the love of God, there's no reason to be an absolute dick about it.

This is the other, shoddy work and a lack of quality control.

We log in one day and see that every single time a door closes in our fort B hard-crashes. We logged on one day to see floating shit everywhere in our base. We complained, because it looked terrible, and got backlash from the dev team, and reminded that the updates are slow and we should be grateful for any attention.

Like, how do you want me to feel? I'm not shitting on people in private, im not blowing up PM inboxes, I make a thread highlighting a bunch of issues that were just now introduced (i linked it before, that's the thread) and im seen as the bad guy? I'm the one shitting on the dev team for asking why the server crashes whenever I open my door? Or why there's a gigantic rock 15 feet in the air next to the trees also 15 feet in the air?

What do you want me to do in these situations?

Alright. what about those who want to submit fixes?

You either join the dev team and help with the server in general or you submit nothing.

You don't get to pick only for "your own benefit" but either for the benefit of all or not at all. Else it would be hugely unfair and also dangerous to the server because people would just work on their own characters areas and for only their personal benefit, and not for the general good of the server, this is not how it works.

I see. So who decides exactly what needs done then?

I believe it's decided by the priority. Fixing a carpet .1 inches off on the X or Y axis doesn't come to priority vs. a broken NPC / Bug in a major City / Used often. Like if Hil'rash broke that's automatic priority vs. the unbalanced carpet.

Again, this is just a guess.

Why not let everything out to the general public, like a job board, then let those who want to work on it take it and fix it.

Amarice summarized some of my thoughts on the matter. Will post now but for now I would like to point out that the classic look of what Revak said on OOC issue no longer applies. It is no longer between good and evil players. In the past seven years I have seen that more often between people who are supposedly playing on the same sides and in one faction. While other players use OOC difficulties to press something through ICly. It blew up factions more often than the good vs evil conflicts. Until we can start treating eachother as humans there is really nothing to talk about in my opinion.

Will post more on other topics when RL will let me focus.

What is the plan for the server then?

Commie wrote:

Moogle wrote:

Amarice-Elaraliel wrote:

Another issue is if you look at every single thread devs/designers made with changes, all they get is slaps in the faces. Cries of outrage over every little change. And I do not speak of posts like "hey this needs a little tweaking I think", but about "OMG WTF you doing so OP, so OP or YOU RUIN everything!!!" up to "but you should have done X and X an Y and Z FIRST!!!" which grinded our design team basically to dust and left us with maybe 3-4 active designers/devs and that is a probably far too generous count.

Without our designers, the server will however stagnate. But our designers get burned out by every little change being met with nothing but outcry.

We wanted to add very very beautiful new heads years ago. Most of them being an override to the standard NWN very old vanilla heads that do not even have tattoo options. Know why it was never done? Because when the dev team said it would be done, they were met with a huge outcry and hissy fit about how they must preserve favorite head Nr. x of player who likely has not played amia in years and prolly honestly has not played amia in years already at the point but simply still has an opinion on everything. So taking the full head package apart, for every little whimsey that needs to be tended, would have been a tremendous amount of extra work, no dev was willing to do it and here it sits still, and still leaves us with the shitty old vanilla default old heads I do not ever see anyone use.

This, so much this.

This is primarily a reason I am not going to try to poke someone to see about getting back on the dev team. While I was one the extremely lucky ones when I made Belenoth, freshened up Forrstakkr, and did the Troglodyte dungeon redesign, I also saw some of my team mates being bashed and beaten down from outrageous cries from their own areas, or balance changes, or monster redesigns. It made me afraid to continue doing work for the dev team, despite having to originally leave due to health problems. I know myself well enough to know that if I received the type of vitriol that I saw my team mates receive I would have promptly gone off and made an ass of myself, probably yelling, "Well, if you think you know better, you do it and see how well it goes." I really dislike it when people who make no effort to do the work themselves bash and beat down others who do have the initiative to at least try. It leaves a sour taste in my mouth and it usually isn't something I deal well with.

Actually, I don't have time to deal with it. Making areas for people who are likely going to spit in my face for doing it isn't something I want to waste what little free time I have on. I have a five year old ADHD daughter who needs me until she goes to sleep.

So you guys, if you (general you, I don't mean EVERYONE) want area changes, try being more polite to those who actually do the work. Even if it takes months until there is a dev member who is able to do the work you need/want done, be polite. Don't go slinging shit around and get in their faces, because more than likely, you're going to make that person ask what the hell is the point of even doing this, and make them never want to touch toolset again for Amia. I'm not saying don't speak up if something is done you're not particularly fond of, but for the love of God, there's no reason to be an absolute dick about it.

This is the other, shoddy work and a lack of quality control.

We log in one day and see that every single time a door closes in our fort B hard-crashes. We logged on one day to see floating shit everywhere in our base. We complained, because it looked terrible, and got backlash from the dev team, and reminded that the updates are slow and we should be grateful for any attention.

Like, how do you want me to feel? I'm not shitting on people in private, im not blowing up PM inboxes, I make a thread highlighting a bunch of issues that were just now introduced (i linked it before, that's the thread) and im seen as the bad guy? I'm the one shitting on the dev team for asking why the server crashes whenever I open my door? Or why there's a gigantic rock 15 feet in the air next to the trees also 15 feet in the air?

What do you want me to do in these situations?

That is not one of the cases I was meaning, Commie. :lol:

Your example is what I believe Amarice was meaning when she said "And I do not speak of posts like "hey this needs a little tweaking I think"". The cases I was meaning was someone, anyone, flying in out of nowhere and instead of giving constructive feedback, like "that's not what I was expecting, could you change it just a bit?" or "hey this is broken", they go raging off the handle at things the moment the changes go in. Good changes, not accidents, not a "testing the waters" change, but firm and careful changes that were approved of by a DM of a specific area, made by the dev team, and put in with the idea of this is what people wanted/asked. Then suddenly "IT'S NOT GOOD ENOUGH, YOU ALL SUCK" or "I DIDN'T WANT THIS, CHANGE IT BACK RIGHT NOW."

Oh I gotya.

Withdrawn then.

Amarice-Elaraliel wrote:

You either join the dev team and help with the server in general or you submit nothing.

You don't get to pick only for "your own benefit" but either for the benefit of all or not at all. Else it would be hugely unfair and also dangerous to the server because people would just work on their own characters areas and for only their personal benefit, and not for the general good of the server, this is not how it works.

I agree on most of that there Ama, but I think we, at this point, have to strongly consider if the alternative is working. It's a very noble and on some level sensible thing, but let's weigh the option first. In the worst case scenario of someone only submitting/doing things for areas they are personally involved in, you get calls of favoritism, neglect, etc, etc... basically, things the team already gets accused of 90% of the time, regardless of whether it is happening or not. But in this case, at least things are getting done. And one might assume, these things are getting done in areas where there are an interest, or at least a high potential for RP. Of course I'm not saying this is how it should be; I'm trying to point on what's failing with the current system and just why exactly the option gets brought up so many times. "For all or for none" has left us at a virtual standstill in places.

In this case, I do believe there is a middle ground. We can have uphold our morals and be as fair as possible without restricting ourselves.

I do think that player-submitted area changes should be considered, provided they go through Dev-quality control and make sense IC. It saves the dev team the time of actually making the changes, they only have to make sure they changes were done up to snuff. The argument of "Well, what if someone makes their area super-cool-badass?" is a pointless one. It's literally the same thing one way or another.

A) Player requests area changes that the Dev team eventually gets around to after months, then is begged to tweak 2 or 3 times because details were omitted or something was done differently than the original vision.

B) Player submits an area change they made in a module themselves. Dev team gives it a run through once for quality, makes note of any issues or changes that need to be made. Player makes or agrees to those changes that need to be made and then it's frickin' done. One time. Devs spend time they would have spent making area changes themselves on more general server things.

If someone submits a module with a 12ft high golden phallus in the middle of broke-ass Ostland, you tell them there aren't the resources for that. This is no different than if someone had ASKED a Dev to erect said phallus in Ostland as an area change. The idea that people would get mad because people are making cool areas for themselves is silly when the dev team has final say-so in both scenarios. If an area gets made well now, do you bitch at the Dev for making it well if they were following a player's request? No, they're the middleman in this situation, the same thing gets done, just without trying to first translate it to a dev who has limited time and patience.

At one time I wanted to be a dev or a scripter for the server. I do not have time for either of those now. But I still sit down to the toolset every night to fool with things, make outfits, recreate places in the module or in FR lore. I think to bar people like me from making any contribution simply because we cannot be full-time Devs is severely undercutting our resources as a server. Take help where you can get it. I and others with toolset experience would likely and happily volunteer to do other people's area requests for them, too every now and again. Even so, the Aurora Toolset is not that difficult at all when it comes to simple area creation. The matter of maintaining transitions and area scripts will still rest on the devs, but the tedium of making the "physical" area can be done by almost anyone willing to throw time at it.

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