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Impknightofireland
 
PostPosted: Sat, Mar 07 2020, 3:50 AM 

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Why do we Rp request one and not the other?

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Last edited by Impknightofireland on Sat, Mar 07 2020, 3:56 AM, edited 1 time in total.

 
      
serbiris
 
PostPosted: Sat, Mar 07 2020, 3:54 AM 

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Well one is a class feature, and the other is an optional extra from racial RP.

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Impknightofireland
 
PostPosted: Sat, Mar 07 2020, 4:00 AM 

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serbiris wrote:
Well one is a class feature, and the other is an optional extra from racial RP.

Thank you Captian Obvious.

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Jes
 
PostPosted: Sat, Mar 07 2020, 4:43 AM 

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Imp, that is an entirely unnecessary comment. Don't do that again.

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Richard_Edmund
 
PostPosted: Sat, Mar 07 2020, 5:26 AM 

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According to the Races of Faerun sourcebook Tieflings are born with

Small horns (Demon, Devil, Night hag)
Fangs or pointed teeth
Forked tongues (Demon, Devil)
Glowing red eyes (Demon, Devil, Night hag)
Cat eyes (Rakshasa)
More or less than 5 fingers (Demon, Devil)
Goatlike legs (Devil)
Hooves (Devil)
Non-prehensile tail (Demon, Devil)
Furry, leather or scaly skin (Demon, Devil, Rakshasa)
Red skin (Demon, Devil)
Bruised blue skin (Night hag)

Aasimar are born with;

Golden eyes
Silver hair
Emerald skin (Planetar)
Feathers at the shoulder (Astral deva, Avoral celestial, Planetar, Solar, Trumpet archon)
Feathers in hair (Avoral celestial)
Pearly opalescent eyes (Ghaele celestial)
Powerful ringing voice (Lillend, Trumpet archon)
Brilliant topaz eyes (Solar)
Silvery or golden skin (Solar)
Iridescent scales in small patches (Couatl, Lillend)

An argument could be made for the Tieflings goat-like legs, hooves and tails, however they are ruled out as a normal occurance, and are very rare, hence why they (as well as wings) are request only. You can request wings for a PC born with them, however that will have to be made prior to character creation.

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robbi320
 
PostPosted: Sat, Mar 07 2020, 11:33 AM 



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Two things of note: I remember a few tieflings starting with horns or a tail. That (obviously) doesn't need in game RP.

The second note is pretty simple. One is a class feature. it is assumed that, if you 'properly' RP the class, that's your RP. Aasimar, on the other hand, is not a class. It's a race. And it's a race that actually can have pretty minimal impact on your character. Aasimar Paladin? Plays just about exactly as a standard pally. Apart from certain instances, the tendency to good that aasimar has, ends up playing out like most other goodly characters. And just about every mention of aasimar is sourcebooks mentions that evil aasimar exist. If you want your shiny character to be more shiny, you'll have to put in the effort, with proper RP.
If you, on your RDD want a third draconic feature, you will have to RP for it just like an aasimar, tiefling, or feytouched.

I'd imagien there's one more reason why DDs have it a bit easier in that regard: WYSIWYG. In PnP, and I believe in generally accepted RP on here, RDDs grow scales. Their facial features change. After a couple levels, they don't look fully human anymore. You can request a skin color change in game, but that's not mandatory, and still isn't a 100% sure indicator of an RDD. However, at least after a certain investment, wings sprout. And not just any wings, draconic wings, in accordance with the correct color. And this makes RDDs obvious. You shouldn't be able to hide the fact that you're a 10-, or 20-level RDD. The same class features that give them AC should also make it obvious that they are an RDD. Would this be necessary, in a world where everyone RPs what they are? Everyone would state it in the bio, and it would be obvious. Then again, there's precedent that people don't do that. Chultans, anyone? Have Mercy on me for bringing this up, but sometimes, it's important to show what a character is.
Aasimar and tieflings aren't quite as obvious as RDDs. (or chultans, eh, Imp?) There's a chance for them to have obvious signs, but then, the most horrendous-looking tieflings (and possibly aasimar, because "they look different") are killed at birth, because they look different. And lastly, wings on aasimar is a generally rare thing. There's nothing about an aasimar, inherently, that suddenly makes them sprout wings. RDDs, on the other hand, it's basically the whole RP of the class. And unless we restrict PrCs, that's always going to be open for everyone.


 
      
Impknightofireland
 
PostPosted: Sat, Mar 07 2020, 16:14 PM 

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Serbris, hey bud, sorry if I offended you. Just my dry sense of humor.

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PassionateShadow
 
PostPosted: Sat, Mar 07 2020, 17:08 PM 

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http://dnd.arkalseif.info/feats/races-o ... index.html
https://dndtools.net/classes/dragon-disciple/
Dragon Disciple

(Dungeon Master's Guide v.3.5 variant, p. 183)

Dragon disciples use their magic as a catalyst to ignite their dragon blood.
Requirements

Skills: Knowledge (arcana) 8 ranks

Race: Any nondragon (cannot already be a half-dragon).

Languages: Draconic.

Spellcasting: Ability to cast arcane spells without preparation.

Special: The player chooses a dragon variety when taking the first level in this prestige class, subject to the DM?s approval.
Hit die

d12
Skill points

2 + Int
Class Features

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Dragon disciples gain no proficiency with any weapon or armor.

Bonus Spells: Dragon disciples gain bonus spells as they gain levels in this prestige class, as if from having a high ability score, as given on Table 6?7. A bonus spell can be added to any level of spells the disciple already has the ability to cast. If a character has more than one spellcasting class, he must decide to which class he adds each bonus spell as it is gained. Once a bonus spell has been applied, it cannot be shifted.

Natural Armor Increase (Ex): At 1st, 4th, and 7th level, a dragon disciple becomes more draconic in appearance. His skin develops tiny iridescent scales, nearly invisible at first but becoming more noticeable at higher levels. This provides an increase to the character?s existing natural armor (if any), as indicated on Table 6?7 (the numbers represent the total increase gained to that point). As his skin thickens, a dragon disciple takes on more and more of his progenitor?s physical aspect.

Claws and Bite (Ex): At 2nd level, a dragon disciple gains claw and bite attacks if he does not already have them. Use the values above or the disciple?s base claw and bite damage values, whichever are greater.
Size Bite Damage Claw Damage
Small 1d4 1d3
Medium 1d6 1d4
Large 1d8 1d6

A dragon disciple is considered proficient with these attacks. When making a full attack, a dragon disciple uses his full base attack bonus with his bite attack but takes a ?5 penalty on claw attacks. The Multiattack feat (see page 304 of the Monster Manual) reduces this penalty to only ?2.

Ability Boost (Ex): As a dragon disciple gains levels in this prestige class, his ability scores increase as noted on Table 6?7. These increases stack and are gained as if through level advancement.

Breath Weapon (Su): At 3rd level, a dragon disciple gains a minor breath weapon, derived from his draconic ancestor. The type and shape depend on the dragon variety whose heritage he enjoys (see below). Regardless of the ancestor, the breath weapon deals 2d8 points of damage of the appropriate energy type. At 7th level, the damage increases to 4d8, and when a disciple attains dragon apotheosis at 10th level it reaches its full power at 6d8. Regardless of its strength, the breath weapon can be used only once per day. Use all the rules for dragon breath weapons (see page 69 of the Monster Manual) except as specified here. The DC of the breath weapon is 10 + class level + Con modifier. A line-shaped breath weapon is 5 feet high, 5 feet wide, and 60 feet long. A cone-shaped breath weapon is 30 feet long.
Dragon Variety 1 Breath Weapon
Black Line of acid
Blue Line of lightning
Green Cone of corrosive gas (acid)
Red Cone of fire
White Cone of cold
Brass Line of fire
Bronze Line of lightning
Copper Line of acid
Gold Cone of fire
Silver Cone of cold
1 Other varieties of dragon disciple are possible, using other dragon varieties as ancestors.

Blindsense (Ex): At 5th level, the dragon disciple gains blindsense with a range of 30 feet. Using nonvisual senses, such as acute smell or hearing, the dragon disciple notices things it cannot see. He usually does not need to make Spot or Listen checks to notice and pinpoint the location of creatures within range of his blindsense ability, provided that he has line of effect to that creature. Any opponent the dragon disciple cannot see still has total concealment against him, and the dragon disciple still has the normal miss chance when attacking foes that have concealment. Visibility still affects the movement of a creature with blindsense. A creature with blindsense is still denied its Dexterity bonus to Armor Class against attacks from creatures it cannot see. At 10th level, the range of this ability increases to 60 feet.

Wings (Ex): At 9th level, a dragon disciple grows a set of draconic wings. He may now fly at a speed equal to his normal land speed, with average maneuverability.

Dragon Apotheosis: At 10th level, a dragon disciple fully realizes his draconic heritage and takes on the half-dragon template (see page 146 of the Monster Manual). His breath weapon reaches full strength (as noted above), and he gains +4 to Strength and +2 to Charisma. His natural armor bonus increases to +4, and he acquires low-light vision, 60-foot darkvision, immunity to sleep and paralysis effects, and immunity to the energy type used by his breath weapon (see abo


Outsider Wings
( Races of Faerûn, p. 167)

[General]

You have sprouted wings appropriate to your heritage, revealing the power of your supernatural bloodline.
Prerequisite

Celestial Bloodline (DC) (or) , Fiendish Bloodline (DC) , Aasimar or Tiefling, Base Fortitude, Reflex, and Will saves +2,
Benefit

You gain wings (feathered if an aasimar, batlike if a tiefling), allowing you to fly at your land speed (average maneuverability). A medium or heavy load that would reduce your land speed reduces your fly speed a proportionate amount.


Celestial Bloodline
( Dragon Compendium)

[Bloodline]

One of your distant ancestors was a good outsider. The characteristics you display might depend in part on the kind of celestial heritage you have.

Descendants of devas or archons tend to be very decisive—quick to judge and quick to act. Characters
with couatl or lillend ancestors are often physically beautiful, and they tend to favor snakes and other reptiles as familiars. The most common sources of celestial blood, however, are minor good deities or the avatars of more powerful beings. A sorcerer descended from such a line can be very passionate about his faith, whether he follows his ancestor's religion or not.

Characters with the Celestial Bloodline feat are usually good-aligned, although not always. Their yearning for adventure stems either from a desire to aid others, an innate need to combat evil, or both. As such, celestial- blooded characters tend to focus their spell selections on good- or neutral-aligned spells that aid others.
Prerequisite

Ability to cast arcane spells without preparation,
Required for

Celestial Light (DC) , Outsider Wings (Rac) ,
Benefit

Your ancestry gives you a bonus spell known at each spell level, starting at 1st, according to the following list.
1st—Protection from evil 2nd—Daylight
3rd—Magic circle against evil 4th—Rainbow pattern 5th—Dismissal
6th—Guards and wards
7th—Sequester
8th—Sunburst
9th—Summon monster IX (good outsiders only)
Special

If a character takes this feat any time after 1st level and has already learned any of the spells on this list in the class that granted her access to this feat, she gains no additional spells known at those spell levels. This restriction does not apply if she learned any of these spells as a member of another spellcasting class.

Characters with this feat cannot learn or cast spells with the evil descriptor, and all such spells are removed from the spell lists of all their spellcasting classes.

A character may choose only one base bloodline feat.

Fiendish Bloodline
( Dragon Compendium)

[Bloodline]

One of your distant ancestors was an evil outsider. The characteristics you display might depend in part on the kind of fiendish heritage you have. Many of your
bloodline are dark in coloration, although great variation can exist depending on your specific ancestry.
Evil outsiders such as demons and devils produce a surprisingly large number of offspring on the Material Plane. Their descendants are frequently (but not always) evil. Demon-blooded characters and others descended from beings native to the chaotic evil realms are usually chaotic themselves, and at their worst they can be prone to greedy or lustful behavior.

Those with devil blood, on the other hand, tend to be lawful. They have no compunctions about bending the rules as far as possible, but they rarely break them. Like their fiendish ancestors, devil-spawn are known for keeping their word.

Characters with fiendish blood often seem driven— even haunted—by the potential for evil within them, especially if they try to hold to a neutral or good path. They frequently adventure out of a restlessness caused by their own internal struggles, although sometimes they do so simply because they enjoy killing and adventuring provides a perfect outlet for that tendency. Such characters usually prefer spells of darkness and deception, even if they are good-aligned.
Prerequisite

Ability to cast arcane spells without preparation,
Required for

Outsider Wings (Rac) ,
Benefit

Your ancestry gives you a bonus spell known at each spell level, starting at 1st, according to the following list.
1st—Protection from good
2nd—Darkness
3rd—Sepia snake sigil
4th—Bestow curse
5th—Nightmare
6th—Mislead
7th—Insanity
8th—Maze
9th—Imprisonment
Special

If a character takes this feat any time after 1st level and has already learned any of the spells on this list in the class that granted her access to this feat, she gains no additional spells known at those spell levels. This restriction does not apply if she learned any of these spells as a member of another spellcasting class.

Characters with this feat cannot learn or cast spells withthe good descriptor, and all such spells are removed from the spell lists of all their spellcasting classes.

A character may choose only one base bloodline feat.
Also appears in

Races of Faerûn





Dragon disciples get it from their class and dedication to mutating them selves through the class.

Outsider blood lines like tieflinng and aasimars would traditionally be required to take two feats.

They are different investments.

RDD is a prestige class and comes with its own requirements and standard for when mutations occur.
Rather than make tieflings and aasimars that are already ECL adjusted take 2 feats to get wings and a third for flight as part of the build it's put behind roleplay and dedication to cultural and racial knowledge of your blood line and behavioral changes that can occur.

RDD have big class investment to get wings you need 9 lvls and the prerequisites to getting wings. They still rp the mutations and changes they go through. Requesting outsider stuff is well unique and special and not standardized in a class already. RDDs who want other bits added to them need to meet requirements and request them as well. If you want fancy horns you need to request them.

RDDs are essentially trying to mutate them selves with a combination of magic and their blood line to mutate in to dragons. Angels and Tieflings take feats and awaken their blood line, then they have angel and demon puberty. That's at least how I see it.

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thunderbrush
 
PostPosted: Sat, Mar 07 2020, 20:27 PM 



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To be honest. I fought this battle years ago. Back when I was all grumpy, all the time. The wing thing is a server convention, that is all. It has no roots in any lore, outside of the vacuum of Amia, and in certain cases, wings and horns and tails have been awarded upon creation. I'll not dredge up old feelings about that matter. Just do some RP, I guess. Can't be that bad.

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Dark Immolation
 
PostPosted: Sat, Mar 07 2020, 21:55 PM 

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serbiris wrote:
Well one is a class feature, and the other is an optional extra from racial RP.


This is literally the //Thread, though.

When HotU came out(yes, not all the content currently in the game was always there), RDD getting wings at lv 9 was already baked into the class. It is in fact hardcoded into the game, meaning this happens automatically. The only way for us to ever require people making a request for RDD wings would have been to(possibly manually) take them away upon level 9, then make people request them back. A lot of work for not much pay off. So while before and after the introduction of (R)DD, you had to make a request for wings(like any body modification as it requires a DM/DM tools to do), the class was just a special case in that respect. So it's our convention, yes, but there's nothing sinister or mystical about it and it didn't come out of nowhere. Devs or DMs of the time feel free to correct me if I'm wrong on any of this.

The argument could be made for some in-game way for relevant PCs to awaken their bloodlines and gain wings(custom feats, quests, etc), but otherwise, it's not really unreasonable to require some RP for something that you could not otherwise get in vanilla NWN. Like any other instance of appearance mod/leto work. Again. (R)DD is the outlier in that the code of the game will give you wings by default at lv 9. The toys and flavors Amia added don't change that. That's why you still have to ask a DM to activate your color for you and for you not to just default to Red.

Edit: Now that I look at it, I'm not even sure if there was a "before" RDD for Amia. HotU was 2003, server split would have been circa 2004-5? It would have depended on when we patched. I have no idea if/how requests were handled in proto-Amialeth, but I'm assuming there wasn't a scripted button you could just walk up to and gain wings... Though, I can't say it would surprise me if there was.

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Galenson
 
PostPosted: Sun, Mar 08 2020, 14:57 PM 

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There isn't many who would remember the split, or the time in between.

It was well before my time. I can say that much.

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Impknightofireland
 
PostPosted: Mon, Mar 09 2020, 3:35 AM 

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Curious. Can one be a Aasmir and Rdd?

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Milly can run the Mino Maze in under 12 Parsecs
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Jes
 
PostPosted: Mon, Mar 09 2020, 3:43 AM 

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It is mechanically possible, yes.

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PassionateShadow
 
PostPosted: Mon, Mar 09 2020, 3:53 AM 

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Impknightofireland wrote:
Curious. Can one be a Aasmir and Rdd?

I own one so yes

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Richard_Edmund
 
PostPosted: Mon, Mar 09 2020, 4:05 AM 

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And your wings would only be either draconic or celestial and not a mix of both.

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Jes
 
PostPosted: Mon, Mar 09 2020, 4:49 AM 

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Honestly, if you're high enough level DD, you won't likely be able to awaken the other bloodline further at all. As far as the mechanics of the magical bloodlines go.

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TormakSaber
 
PostPosted: Tue, Mar 10 2020, 7:46 AM 

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Quote:
Edit: Now that I look at it, I'm not even sure if there was a "before" RDD for Amia. HotU was 2003, server split would have been circa 2004-5? It would have depended on when we patched. I have no idea if/how requests were handled in proto-Amialeth, but I'm assuming there wasn't a scripted button you could just walk up to and gain wings... Though, I can't say it would surprise me if there was.



you requested on the forums, it was discussed, approved, and it happened, and got given to you in game manually by a DM, wings were 50 DCs. Requests have existed basically since the server did. They were a cornerstone of the server because of an Arelith mechanic I'll be describing below...

DCs existed pretty much since the very beginning day 1 of Amia as well. Originally they were given as physical inventory items and they were specific to each DM. This didn't last super long. They got standardized and then later turned into database tokenn rather than individual items taking up space in your inventory.

Arelith's version of doing requests before the split used the Orb of Destiny. This item dropped from Kraven in the Manor of Mourn on an extremely low droprate on a chance that only rolled the first time he was killed per reset. I think you can imagine how things generally went. Regardless, if you got an orb, you got to talk directly to JJjerm who handled the orb of destiny requests himself and could be basically anything. Post split, Arelith had the epic sacrifice system, but much different than it was now - Jjjerm rolled a physical die at his RL desk and told you the result and you just sort of had to believe what he said. That's about all I'll say on the matter.

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bobofwestoregonusa
 
PostPosted: Tue, Mar 10 2020, 10:58 AM 

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Man it's kinda crazy thinking about how far technology has advanced since the pre HoTU days of NWN for both servers. They both have some pretty phenomenal mechanics now.

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