AMIA ARCHIVE • View topic - NWN EE Finished Classes

maglorine wrote:

Mav has it exactly right. You cannot use the Warsling PrC as a "template" for something similar in Bow precisely because of the existence of the Arcane Archer class.

On the other hand, you could use it as a template for pretty much any other ranged weapon. Darts? Crossbows? Anything. Ranged combat, aside from Arcane Archer and the Longbow, is inferior to melee.

Very much love to see this with Darts and other holdable thrown weapons. Throwing axes. Shurikens. Etc.

maglorine wrote:

Mav has it exactly right. You cannot use the Warsling PrC as a "template" for something similar in Bow precisely because of the existence of the Arcane Archer class.

On the other hand, you could use it as a template for pretty much any other ranged weapon. Darts? Crossbows? Anything. Ranged combat, aside from Arcane Archer and the Longbow, is inferior to melee.

That is why you have... race and class restrictions i guess. :lol:

Maverick00053 wrote:

Yes it can but I don't want an AA to double dip and be even more ridiculous. So if we go that route I'll probably restrict it to non elves only.

Looking at it another way, getting a viable build in 30 levels with a base magic class, AA and 5 levels of an archer PrC... is that seriously doable? :shock:

As for the other, is there a way to disallow two classes from stacking?

Example: If you take Arcane Archer, you cannot take the Bowman [using this name as a standin for the general Bow template idea]. And if you take Bowman you cannot take Arcane Archer.

Yeah. I could add in a check on level up. If they have AA while taking an Archer level then it forces them to re-level, and vice versa.

Maverick00053 wrote:

Yeah. I could add in a check on level up. If they have AA while taking an Archer level then it forces them to re-level, and vice versa.

I ask again, what will be the IC explanation to all of this? Or we will just have to do like when Amia got changed up in 2007, and accepted it and ignore the IC/RP parts of it?

Reasons are for balance. IC and RP are important but so is server balance. Balance promotes class and build diversity which spices up RP.

Maverick00053 wrote:

Reasons are for balance. IC and RP are important but so is server balance. Balance promotes class and build diversity which spices up RP.

I would beg to differ on that one. I think harshly balancing is for MMOs and hamper the RP since it becomes mechanics over story. I do not think we need to perfect the balance to make it fun to play and rewarding in RP.

Last edited by walnutboy on Mon, Apr 08 2019, 1:03 AM, edited 1 time in total.

Budly wrote:

Maverick00053 wrote:

Yeah. I could add in a check on level up. If they have AA while taking an Archer level then it forces them to re-level, and vice versa.

I ask again, what will be the IC explanation to all of this? Or we will just have to do like when Amia got changed up in 2007, and accepted it and ignore the IC/RP parts of it?

Seriously, you don't need it explaining. We limit other builds OOCly just because they are over powered hell we even have a level cap, some PrC even have a max level... why did bioware do anything to limit builds, as Mav said... game balance! Sometimes there are things that don't need to be explained, after all we have server rules which have no IC or RP reason, they are just there and we accept them, classes have requirements but we just accept them... this is just something else to make the game both playable and enjoyable!!

Amia is not just based on roleplay. As a server it has to look at ooc things, like mechanical balance.

Kiasyd wrote:

Amia is not just based on roleplay. As a server it has to look at ooc things, like mechanical balance.

I don't come here to play it like a MMORPG. I come here to roleplay in Faerun.

Budly you are literally the only one in here and about half the posts in this topic screaming "the IC the lore the IC".

Please stop, the rest of us are trying to have a productive conversation about mechanics of the server. Just because people are discussing the mechanics of new classes does not suddenly mean no one cares about the lore or RP of the server. We're discussing classes and new ways to create variable builds and add variety to the server, which in itself opens up many new RP avenues due to the new character building options. Literally negative people care about you quoting posts over and over again talknig about "MMO balancing" as though it were some huge boogeyman, or screaming about race locked classes, as though characters besides elves using bows well is somehow a massive blackmark against the setting despite the existence of classes like Deepwood Sniper, Order of the Bow Initiate, and more.

TormakSaber wrote:

Budly you are literally the only one in here and about half the posts in this topic screaming "the IC the lore the IC".

Please stop, the rest of us are trying to have a productive conversation about mechanics of the server. Just because people are discussing the mechanics of new classes does not suddenly mean no one cares about the lore or RP of the server. We're discussing classes and new ways to create variable builds and add variety to the server, which in itself opens up many new RP avenues due to the new character building options. Literally negative people care about you quoting posts over and over again talknig about "MMO balancing" as though it were some huge boogeyman, or screaming about race locked classes, as though characters besides elves using bows well is somehow a massive blackmark against the setting despite the existence of classes like Deepwood Sniper, Order of the Bow Initiate, and more.

If we are -MAINLY- a roleplaying server, these things need to be grounded in IC and lore and just not mechanically pulled out a rulebook and altered to fit the server.

Said archer classes do not use the same Elven art as the Arcane Archer.

For me as a player, I do not mind imbalances. Thats just what IM pointing at, we do not need perfect balance or remotely closed to it in my opinion.

I like the idea of this being implemented into the crossbow, altho' I'm not very good at balancing I like the idea of them recieving more love!

Also, to continue what Buddly said, maybe we could open another thread about the lore aspect of all this! Just as a friendly conversation!

yimmi wrote:

I like the idea of this being implemented into the crossbow, altho' I'm not very good at balancing I like the idea of them recieving more love!

Yes there has been some interest in making crossbows more to love. I am looking forward to something like this.

Crossbows and single weapon one handed classes (Musketeer style) are both on my list.

That be cool.

Either way, since im honestly not the most mechanically savvy person, I gonna slide out of here. I just hope we keep our racial PrCs intact and let there be more options instead for others. In the end, I am sure the changes be fiting and good. Im simply just a person who do not care much for balance to perfection in a game like NWN.

Something I've always dreamt about is a dwarven arbalist! Yaaarrr!

Kiasyd wrote:

As for the other, is there a way to disallow two classes from stacking?

Example: If you take Arcane Archer, you cannot take the Bowman [using this name as a standin for the general Bow template idea]. And if you take Bowman you cannot take Arcane Archer.

Love the bowman idea! Thought i'd say!... even if i play a bowwoman... that even a word??

@Mav you can prevent 2 classes from being taken in the 2da with CLASSNOT

lilmarcat wrote:

@Mav you can prevent 2 classes from being taken in the 2da with CLASSNOT

Nice. Life is easier now.

Classes with value either have some bias towards offense (Weapon-master) or defense (Shadowdancer). Without that, they end up untaken and ignored for the most part. Escape Artist is just Rogue's leftovers, minus Sneak Attack.

Esape Artist has Kip Up in it's splat-book. Kip Up should be represented as Immunity to KD. Plus innate Freedom just to make them hard to pin down. And perhaps a setup leading to Self-conceal V.

I'd consider making it ten levels pre-epic with setups towards Epic Dodge (Def Roll, Imp Eva), Slippery Mind, innate Freedom and Immunity to KD, then maybe five epic levels with a Self-conceal increment for each. Toss in a slower Sneak Attack progression (+1d6 per three levels) and that'd make a worthwhile defensive class.

And before anybody says, "That's too much!" realize it'd be a 10 level pre-epic 3/4 AB class, meaning setting up your AB for 4 attacks is harder, but not impossible. It will require some sacrifice along the way to build for it.

And frankly, I'm very pro-racial classes. Every race should have a worthwhile one to showcase their place in the world. So many races are just utter trash mechanically, racial PrCs give them a reason to be used and shine.

Quick note - I'm on holidays till Thursday. Mavs busy irl this week so work on pushing builds to the test server will likely stop till I'm back.

Eldritch Knight is 80% done
Arcane tricksters next on my list.

I'm sure we'll both be forum snooping for more ideas though.

I agree with opening up classes as well. First off, the "viable" AA build is hardly arcane anyway. Going 10 ftr, 2 Bard and 18 AA (or something along those lines) hardly makes you a master mage. All you do is attack things with ranged, and "claim" your archery is supplemented with magic. If the requirement to be an elf is unchanged, elves still can AA just as well, because the lore did not change for them at all. However other races can open up magical archery as well. Or even just good mundane archery, depending on how the lore is set. Elves still get to be all snobby "We're the best at archery, because we do arcane archery, and these dumb, rash humans just play with bows like children". But it means bows are actually usable. The best non-AA archer build is either a way inferior fighter build that is basically useless compyared to melee, or a sneaker who struggles at hitting anything. If anything, the setting is made better by opening up more classes to be archers, because elves didn't invent archery. They invented Arcane Archery. But the way the server's set up now, you'd assume that, based on how many non-elven archers are there.

Arguing that elves and dwarves lose RP merit by having their (honestly, in their niches, hella overpowered) classes to everyone is like arguing that me giving a beggar money is making you poorer. It doesn't affect you -at all- It affects me, and the beggar, but now you. Just because you have money as well doesn't mean you're poorer because I did something with -mine-.

robbi320 wrote:

I agree with opening up classes as well. First off, the "viable" AA build is hardly arcane anyway. Going 10 ftr, 2 Bard and 18 AA (or something along those lines) hardly makes you a master mage. All you do is attack things with ranged, and "claim" your archery is supplemented with magic. If the requirement to be an elf is unchanged, elves still can AA just as well, because the lore did not change for them at all. However other races can open up magical archery as well. Or even just good mundane archery, depending on how the lore is set. Elves still get to be all snobby "We're the best at archery, because we do arcane archery, and these dumb, rash humans just play with bows like children". But it means bows are actually usable. The best non-AA archer build is either a way inferior fighter build that is basically useless compyared to melee, or a sneaker who struggles at hitting anything. If anything, the setting is made better by opening up more classes to be archers, because elves didn't invent archery. They invented Arcane Archery. But the way the server's set up now, you'd assume that, based on how many non-elven archers are there.

Arguing that elves and dwarves lose RP merit by having their (honestly, in their niches, hella overpowered) classes to everyone is like arguing that me giving a beggar money is making you poorer. It doesn't affect you -at all- It affects me, and the beggar, but now you. Just because you have money as well doesn't mean you're poorer because I did something with -mine-.

The class itself is arcane. The setting is made better if we allow more PrCs added and not at the cost of racial PrCs.

Elves did not invent archery? Citation on that one!

And no, the DwD is not "Hella overpowere". But if it gets a buff and its opened up, no one will play a Dwarf except those few who really love em.

*looks at all the dwarven Dwarven Defenders running around*

*all...2 of them in the last few years?*

Might be an exaggeration, haha! But there really are few dwarves running around as it is. Let alone Dwarven Defenders. I do see your point in this, Budly. Maybe we can look into adding a racial PrC for all the races. So maybe we could get a few suggestions for these supported playable races in the suggestion topic (if we theoretically assume Warslinger for halflings):

Humans
Half-Elves
Gnomes
Half-Orcs
Evil/Good Outsiders
Fey
Genasi Outsider
Goblinoid
Reptilian

DwD usually gets fluffed by NWN servers. Often by having them able to move in Def Stance (albeit slower) and/or extending their resistances to energy damages and such (and/or diseases/poisons).

Gnomes should share DwD with dwarves, just called "Breachgnomes." (Since DwD is just Breachgnome stolen from 2nd edition.)

Eye of Gruumsh is a badass example of a racial class, one that could go to half-orcs. (http://dnd.arkalseif.info/classes/eye-o ... index.html)

My main gripe about making AA availiable for everyone... someone wants to be an archer but why, in order to be the best archer someone can be, does it suddenly involve magic? I sincerely like the bowman idea, a class based more on skill rather than enchanting arrows... much like the warslinger.

"The setting is made better if we allow more PrCs added and not at the cost of racial PrCs." citation please.
" [If DwDs don't exist] no one will play a Dwarf except those few who really love em." citation please.
Playing the citation game is dumb, and kills any sort of sensible discussion. honestly, I don't care whether elves invented Archery, and I'm not going to go look through literal decades of sourcebooks looking for the answer of a question that probably isn't answered.
What I will say is that what you're saying has nothing to do with the lore anymore. Why should dwarven and elven population be inflated artifically, by classes that are overpowered in the respect they are useful in. From the DwD bonus alone, you get pretty much as much DR as any other build can achieve with three epic feats and gear. Which basically means it doubles your DR. There's quite a few pretty powerful builds that forgo a bit of defense for that DR, and putting the specs you'd otherwise put in defense into offense. Say, by weilding a two-handed weapon. DwD/WM is a pretty powerful combination. Is it the best build on the server? No. Is it the most solid two-handed build? Definitely. Seems pretty poweful to me.
It runs through a certain epic boss faster than most other builds manage their easiest epic boss. It makes an otherwise pretty tough boss -the easiest boss on the server-. That sounds pretty damn powerful to me.

And again, why should I have to play an elf to play any sort of archer?
Why should I have to play a dwarf to play a tank?
I'd argue it's already like that, that people only play dwarves if they enjoy dwarves. Few people play dwarves because of the DwD class. Otherwise, why are there so many more dwarves than there are DwDs on Amia?
Why are most of the elves I can think of, thinking back, not AAs, if people wouldn't play elf without AA? If people don't want to play an elf AA, they go half-elf, and act almost completely like humans. But that's not really how RP should work.

Think of it like the Champion of Torm. Keeping it limited to Tormtar limits every other devour character. It can (and was) opened up really easily, with just a single feat change, from smite evil to purge infidel to (just about) fit every single divine character, not just Champions of Torm. But did it dimish -actual- Champions of Torm? No. Because when they take Divine Champion, they -become- a Champion of Torm. It only opened up a number of other faiths to have their respective champions as well. And just because the character sheet no longer lists said DC as a Champion of Torm in particular, it doesn't change the fact that they -are-. Let alone the fact that The only people who get to (legally) see my character sheet are me, and the DMs, who know his deity. It doesn't subtract from Tormtar RP, but grants to every other faith.

Much the same goes for any other restricted class. The "original" class still stays the same, with the same RP.

If we were to make AA so that any race could take it, Elves could still play archers, they still could call them selves an AA. The character sheet might say "Archer" instead Arcane Archer, or something, but in character, they can call themselves AA, and it's 100% legit, exactly the same as with CoT to DC.

walnutboy wrote:

My main gripe about making AA availiable for everyone... someone wants to be an archer but why, in order to be the best archer someone can be, does it suddenly involve magic? I sincerely like the bowman idea, a class based more on skill rather than enchanting arrows... much like the warslinger.

A large part of this is simply that the best class for archery is simply the arcane Archer. Personally, I think you'd get the most out of removing both the class limitations, as well as the arcane limitations on the class. I mean, many people go/went 1 Bard pre-epic, exactly because the best archer doesn't involve magic. The bonuses are just too good for any non-mage archer, that taking a bit of fighter, one bard, and a bunch of AA ended up being the best build. Act like you're not a mage, and that you're channeling all magic into archery.

The citation one was a joke, there is probably no source on who invented archery on Faerun but Elves are probably high up, being one of the oldest races.

Also, no, you cannot be an normal archer as an Arcane Archer, same as a person good with a tower shield is not a Dwarven Defender. This is why we need that other archer variety for other races instead of watering down the Arcane Archer, or Dwarven Defender. If we get an extra archer, not as "lore" great as an AA perhaps but mechanically good, that cover that part instead of undermining the Elven culture, history and society in game and in lore. As presented, there is a ton of prestige classes for each race to be had instead of having all classes for all.

There is one simple reason why there is plenty non AA Elves, they are a popular race. In all games. An example is when Horde got the Blood Elves in WoW, their numbers raised significantly. Dwarves is not as appealign to people, sadly. Overall the Elven population on Amia is much bigger than the Dwarven.

Tell me, how often has Sylveera actually cast any spells? I have'nt seen you play much, but based on your build, I'd wager not too often. Based on her sorc level, I highly doubt it's very often, though. But that's because it's a terrible class for a spellcaster. Maybe there's some cool spellblade... er... spellbow variant out there, but the standard 9/2/19 is pretty much the best AA build out there. Hell, it's a problem all spellcaster classes suffer from: PMs lend themselves to melee far more, RDDs are -the- -best- -melee- -class- -there- -is- now, AAs are best at archery. Going for a few spell dilutes your potential. And based off all the AAs I've seen, most prefer to accept that, trim down the caster classes as far as possible, until it's no more of a caster than Alex is.

And the precedent on Amia? That's completely within the parameters of the class.
That said, lorewise, Arcane Archers are mages first, and archers second, but we all seem to ignore that. For a large part because it makes for a shit build, I'd wager.

And you're really saying elves are more popular than dwarves? That's surprising, and I'd -really- like an amia-specific citation here. And not some (as you seem to detest MMOs) MMO-specific data pool. Dwarves, on amia, have an active faction. Maybe not as active as Halflings, but they're still going. Drow are not elves in the same sense as we're talking about in this case. Though even if we are counting Elves, there seems to be more persisten RP in Brogendenstein, which has been around for ages. But compare that to Winya? Elves are pretty damn rare.

As said, personally, I think the archer class should literally be AA, except without elf requirement, and without sorc requirement. If it's strong enoguh that elves are allowed it, non-elves should too. And -nobody- goes caster AA. Because it's not a viable, working build.

Mate, the Arcane is in the ARCHERY.

robbi320 wrote:

Tell me, how often has Sylveera actually cast any spells? I have'nt seen you play much, but based on your build, I'd wager not too often. Based on her sorc level, I highly doubt it's very often, though. But that's because it's a terrible class for a spellcaster. Maybe there's some cool spellblade... er... spellbow variant out there, but the standard 9/2/19 is pretty much the best AA build out there. Hell, it's a problem all spellcaster classes suffer from: PMs lend themselves to melee far more, RDDs are -the- -best- -melee- -class- -there- -is- now, AAs are best at archery. Going for a few spell dilutes your potential. And based off all the AAs I've seen, most prefer to accept that, trim down the caster classes as far as possible, until it's no more of a caster than Alex is.

And the precedent on Amia? That's completely within the parameters of the class.
That said, lorewise, Arcane Archers are mages first, and archers second, but we all seem to ignore that. For a large part because it makes for a shit build, I'd wager.

And you're really saying elves are more popular than dwarves? That's surprising, and I'd -really- like an amia-specific citation here. And not some (as you seem to detest MMOs) MMO-specific data pool. Dwarves, on amia, have an active faction. Maybe not as active as Halflings, but they're still going. Drow are not elves in the same sense as we're talking about in this case. Though even if we are counting Elves, there seems to be more persisten RP in Brogendenstein, which has been around for ages. But compare that to Winya? Elves are pretty damn rare.

As said, personally, I think the archer class should literally be AA, except without elf requirement, and without sorc requirement. If it's strong enoguh that elves are allowed it, non-elves should too. And -nobody- goes caster AA. Because it's not a viable, working build.

Okay, I will post a proper post now whe nI have some time. Arcane Archery is in the archery, not the spells.

I would not say they are mages first at all.

Yes, I am saying Elves are more popular. Count the amount of Dwarves, count the amount of Elves. Including Drow, they are Elves just evil and twisted, much like Duergar. Winya is in a low right now but Brogdenstein is also driven by some of the most driven and active players. But, Elves are more popular than Dwarves. See Jes post about Dwarves earlier.

The AA should in my opinion not be an class for everyone, cause Elves do not share the art form of Arcane Archery. I hope to see another class, more "mundane" but yet good for archer builds.

Ok. My suggestion for a new class: mundane archer.

level 1: great aim: every two levels, gain +1 ab and damage on all ranged attacks, up to +10 on mundane archer level 19
level 2: explosive shot: fire a shot with a grenade attached to it, dealing 1d6 fire damage per level, to a cap of 10d6 in a huge radius
level 4: Precise shot: Always hits. Deals d3 piercing damage and d3 magical damage per mundan Archer level. gain a second cast per day a level 6.
level 8: multi-shot: fire a shot at everyone in sight. Always hits. Deals d3 piercing damage and d3 magical damage per mundane Archer level, with one shot fired per mundane Archer level. The target makes a Reflex save versus DC of 10 + mundane Archer level (plus some modifier, maybe?) for half damage. A maximum of one shot hits every target.
level 10: killing shot: Fire a shot. (ranged touch attack) if it hits, the enemy has a saving throw, DC 10 + mundane archer level (plus maybe some modifier?) versus death.
Requirements:
BAB +6
Weapon focus in a ranged weapon, point blank shot

all bonuses work with all ranged weapons.

Does that sound like a good class? That way we can keep AA to be elf-only, but have a cool class that is a mundane archer...

robbi320 wrote:

Ok. My suggestion for a new class: mundane archer.

level 1: great aim: every two levels, gain +1 ab and damage on all ranged attacks, up to +10 on mundane archer level 19
level 2: explosive shot: fire a shot with a grenade attached to it, dealing 1d6 fire damage per level, to a cap of 10d6 in a huge radius
level 4: Precise shot: Always hits. Deals d3 piercing damage and d3 magical damage per mundan Archer level. gain a second cast per day a level 6.
level 8: multi-shot: fire a shot at everyone in sight. Always hits. Deals d3 piercing damage and d3 magical damage per mundane Archer level, with one shot fired per mundane Archer level. The target makes a Reflex save versus DC of 10 + mundane Archer level (plus some modifier, maybe?) for half damage. A maximum of one shot hits every target.
level 10: killing shot: Fire a shot. (ranged touch attack) if it hits, the enemy has a saving throw, DC 10 + mundane archer level (plus maybe some modifier?) versus death.
Requirements:
BAB +6
Weapon focus in a ranged weapon, point blank shot

all bonuses work with all ranged weapons.

There is plenty archer PrCs out there. All im asking for!

Does that sound like a good class? That way we can keep AA to be elf-only, but have a cool class that is a mundane archer...

You do realise it's literally a 1-to-1 copy of AA, with less requirements, and working for all weapons, right? The I removed the casting modifier to the DCs, and adding dex or something to it would be way op, but otherwise, it literally is AA. Why couldn't you then just replace AA with this, and call all elven "Mundane Archers" "Arcane Archers"?

I literally don't see the difference...

robbi320 wrote:

You do realise it's literally a 1-to-1 copy of AA, with less requirements, and working for all weapons, right? The I removed the casting modifier to the DCs, and adding dex or something to it would be way op, but otherwise, it literally is AA. Why couldn't you then just replace AA with this, and call all elven "Mundane Archers" "Arcane Archers"?

I literally don't see the difference...

I screwed up the quote.

They did tell us not to keep arguing about in here. As I said, there is plenty other classes out there and I know what you did. AA is a Elven PrC, it is all about respecting the source and lore. To also get reasons to try new races and see how other societies and cultures work in DnD. If all classes can be played by Humans, which balance wise, is one of the best races in the game, why then play a Gnome? Or a Goblin, or anything else for that matter? I do not want the AA replaced, Sylveera is an AA, she is not a "Marksman" or whatever this other "mundane" archer class will be called. I rather see an universal PrC for archers and plenty new racial PrCs along with it.

When did anyone ever tell us not to argue here?

Why would I play a goblin, you ask? I did. Not because he got a cool class, not because it's such a mechanically powerful class, but because it's an interesting race. And if it's an interesting race, people should play it regardless of build. I would like to play a human, but because AA is restricted to elves, I make an elf. But because I'm not really interested in playing an elf, I end up playing only half-heartedly, and end up RPing pretty badly.
Then, I want to play a half-orc, but because I want to play a tank, who just shrugs off any and all damage I receive, I end up playing a dwarf instead. But because I'm not really interested in playing an elf, I end up playing only half-heartedly, and end up RPing pretty badly.

That's not really good for the server. But it's basically what happens when you force people to play something they don't want. They don't enjoy it, and when you don't enjoy something, you do it worse.

robbi320 wrote:

When did anyone ever tell us not to argue here?

Why would I play a goblin, you ask? I did. Not because he got a cool class, not because it's such a mechanically powerful class, but because it's an interesting race. And if it's an interesting race, people should play it regardless of build. I would like to play a human, but because AA is restricted to elves, I make an elf. But because I'm not really interested in playing an elf, I end up playing only half-heartedly, and end up RPing pretty badly.
Then, I want to play a half-orc, but because I want to play a tank, who just shrugs off any and all damage I receive, I end up playing a dwarf instead. But because I'm not really interested in playing an elf, I end up playing only half-heartedly, and end up RPing pretty badly.

That's not really good for the server. But it's basically what happens when you force people to play something they don't want. They don't enjoy it, and when you don't enjoy something, you do it worse.

This is for finished classes!

The PrC is part of the race, Im not really talking simply mechanics.

Please move the removing racial discussion to the other thread.

Currently playing with two things to improve Escape Artist. Conceal 5 by ten and the implementation of a unique feat that called Vanish. At level 5 on death the EA will come back alive with 1 hp and invisibility, at level 10 they will come back upon death at half health alongside invisibility. Cooldown of 10 minutes or so. Would be very fitting for thw class I think.

Maverick00053 wrote:

Please move the removing racial discussion to the other thread.

Currently playing with two things to improve Escape Artist. Conceal 5 by ten and the implementation of a unique feat that called Vanish. At level 5 on death the EA will come back alive with 1 hp and invisibility, at level 10 they will come back upon death at half health alongside invisibility. Cooldown of 10 minutes or so. Would be very fitting for thw class I think.

Will do boss!

Classes looks very interesting by the way!

Updated Escape Artist with suggested changes in blue. Thoughts appreciated.

Added in a new class as well.

Tensers might be getting a rework too since it was basically an EK simulator but since EE will have the class it will need adjustments, or EK will have to be yanked as a possible class. There is also the option of making EK unable to use Tensers period to avoid anything craziness. Thoughts?

Quick AB check, for comparison the Cleric and Paladin sit around 52AB fully self buffed, though this includes the more common Aid/Bless/Prayer.
Preepic 6WIZ/10EK/4Fighter Epic 12WIZ/10EK/8Fighter
BAB:17 + 5 = 22 STR/DEX: ~20 AB feats: Epic Weapon Focus, Epic prowess
Core buffs assumed: Greater Magic weapon (+5), +12 STR/DEX, Tensers (+10)
AB: 22 BAB + 11 STR/DEX + 1 Epic Prowess + 3 Epic weapon Focus + 5 Greater Magic weapon + 10 Tensers = 52 AB
Maximum AB: 57

Extra note - Because Epic spells specifically call for Epic Wiz/Sorcs/Clerics/Druids or 15PM levels the EK wont really be able to qualify for Epic spells as is. Also your missing tumble grabbing a Full BAB class and EK.

If you dropped the above build down 3BAB, which would also drop the 4th attack, you then naturally qualify for Epic spells at level 30. This'd be 12WIZ/1EK/7Fighter -> 21Wiz/1EK/8Fighter. Another 1BAB for 23/1/6 nets you more potential Epic spells

The Escape Artist is another tedious variety of stealther much like the Shadow Dancer?

Budly wrote:

The Escape Artist is another tedious variety of stealther much like the Shadow Dancer?

Yes, much like the shadow dancer it is based upon the concept of survivability.

Maverick00053 wrote:

Updated Escape Artist with suggested changes in blue. Thoughts appreciated.

It's improved for sure, and there's nothing tedious about survival.

The Vanish feat is interesting, but I have questions. Is there a cooldown on vanishing? No Saving throw to Vanish, it's automatic? Any form of death? Failed Fort or Death Saving throw results in a Vanish? WM Crit results in a Vanish? PvP, PvM, or both? Just trying to understand the functionality.

I think a base movement increase included in there would be helpful too. Survival sometimes means running away, fast, and you have to outrun whatever is chasing you. Not suggesting Monk Speed, but 10-20%, just enough to hoof it out of danger.

The discussion on the discord had it on a 10 minute cooldown. And honestly, after some more thinking, I'm hella torn on it. On the one hand, it's likely a class I'll personally not take (at least not for the vanish) and I don't think many others will, because offense tends to be better, or at least more fun to play. which, in a certain way, is a balancing factor in itself. At the same time, I feel like it'd be hella annoying to play against, as well. Especially since those 10 minutes aren't really a limiting factor. If you're really paranoid, just always only go outside with it up, and if it pops, head back into the city where you're safe for those 10 minutes, and then head back out.

maglorine wrote:

Maverick00053 wrote:

Updated Escape Artist with suggested changes in blue. Thoughts appreciated.

It's improved for sure, and there's nothing tedious about survival.

The Vanish feat is interesting, but I have questions. Is there a cooldown on vanishing? No Saving throw to Vanish, it's automatic? Any form of death? Failed Fort or Death Saving throw results in a Vanish? WM Crit results in a Vanish? PvP, PvM, or both? Just trying to understand the functionality.

I think a base movement increase included in there would be helpful too. Survival sometimes means running away, fast, and you have to outrun whatever is chasing you. Not suggesting Monk Speed, but 10-20%, just enough to hoof it out of danger.

It would have a 10 minute cool down or so. It would be automatic on any form of death yes.

Yes the idea was to toss a 20% movement speed on top of it as well.

Angelis96 wrote:

Budly wrote:

The Escape Artist is another tedious variety of stealther much like the Shadow Dancer?

Yes, much like the shadow dancer it is based upon the concept of survivability.

Not what I mean. :roll:

If the Escape Artist remains as it is now, I have an absolute bomb of a build prepared for it.

Let people think it sucks, Mav. Please?

NWN EE Finished Classes - Discussion/Balance

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