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Forum locked This topic is locked, you cannot edit posts or make further replies.  [ 23 posts ] 

Should it be a thing?
Yes! It should be a thing! 9%  9%  [ 3 ]
No! It shouldn't be a thing! 72%  72%  [ 23 ]
I don't care if it's a thing. 19%  19%  [ 6 ]
Total votes : 32
Madam_Jingles
 
PostPosted: Thu, Sep 12 2019, 10:57 AM 

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Hello Amians!
So as most of you know, Pearl is mostly mute on land but has said several times she knows 'Elven Hand Sign'. Two friends have reached out to ask me if it was actually a thing, since both of them are lore savvy on elven history and never heard of it.
I first heard about EHS on Amia several years ago, when I played an ex-slave who had their tongue removed and was taught EHS by Winyans when she was part of the Armathora.
After some intense magical research using the ever-useful 'Google' spell, I can't find evidence of EHS either!
The drow have a hand sign, commonly used with their faerie fire to communicate in the dark, but lore wise, they seem to be the only race with a sign language (Thieves Cant excluded).
Thoughts on this? Elves are an old race, with affinity towards magic and intelligence, wouldn't it make sense for them to have a sign language themselves? Surely after such a long history with who knows how many generations, there were elves born mute or deaf, and not EVERYTHING or EVERYONE can be 'fixed' with magic, that'd just leave no room for originality or character flaws from an RP standpoint.
What do you guys think? Should elven hand sign be a thing?

Quick edit: I removed it from Pearl's languages given the lack of resource, just wanted a discussion on the topic.

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Last edited by Madam_Jingles on Thu, Sep 12 2019, 11:51 AM, edited 1 time in total.

 
      
Magiros
 
PostPosted: Thu, Sep 12 2019, 11:13 AM 

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Drows had specific reasons to develop sign language, which are in some extent explained even in lore. Mainly to be able to deal in dark but also to deceiving purposes.

Elfs have little need for developing this kind of a sing language nor have I seen it ever in lore sources. From RP point not all even can afford the magic to recover from this, nor does it always work as shown cases in DM events.

So you still can make a mute char. There has been blind chars too. Deaf I cant remember ever meeting in Amia.

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walnutboy
 
PostPosted: Thu, Sep 12 2019, 11:19 AM 

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I confess I looked this up or at least sort it out when you used it in front of Ly... something which she was annoyed at but that's another story. I was curious though there doesn't seem to be anything, as you say drow hand sign comes up alot though. I have no issue with it and whatever it's called I recon it's safe to assume that any race or person could come up with a way to communicate with those who seemingly can't.
I've certainly seen human characters signing so it isn't just a drow thing nor essentially an elven one. However, most use their intelligence as a base for how many languages a character may technically learn outside of the racial norm so would hand sign fall under a similar thing? It's fine to have something different and unique to a character like this but when more and more magically know how to do it and a group of people stand in near silence 'signing' so others can't... hear, it starts to stretch realism a little in my mind and needs weighing out with a negative or at least a cost, such at requiring intelligence to learn an extra language.

Either way it doesn't bother me beyond being annoying if you can't join in the RP in a meaningful manner.

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Magiros
 
PostPosted: Thu, Sep 12 2019, 11:30 AM 

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Just to clarify, what I mran is that elfs propably would not find much incentive to develop it to extent that the drows took it. Surely all races develop some ways to communicate with mute, some races propably even have mutes slain etc..

I just dont agree that elves should have elven sign language that is comparable to drow sign language. And I do agree with point that walnut brought that leaning sign languages is tied to intelligence as much any other form of language.

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Madam_Jingles
 
PostPosted: Thu, Sep 12 2019, 11:37 AM 

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Yeah, I see what you guys mean! I wonder if such a thing would just be a general sign language rather than for a specific race... That'd probably make more sense?
And I see what Walnut is saying, as well.

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That Guy
 
PostPosted: Thu, Sep 12 2019, 11:39 AM 

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Just my quick 2 cents, if it's worth even that.

The whole languages thing on Amia really doesn't work. After all, we do see what was said, and try as we might to ignore it, we're human and it's still there, you can't unsee it.

Also, try as I might, I still respond to Pearl's Aquan speech at times, and have to retcon it. I'm not sure adding another "language" to an already confusing and complicated communication system is necessary.

I realize part of your rp is her inability to speak common, and I don't wish to deny you that. But, if you wish to play that type of character, the onus is on YOU to roleplay it, not to make the playerbase bend to your concept. That came out a lot meaner than I meant it to be, but I think you understand what I mean.

Another thing! To communicate, both parties must know the language, so, since this is not a thing currently, anyone who wanted to use this sign language would need to learn it, and, with that have the requisite INT to learn another language.

It just gets quite messy and complicated if you ask me.


 
      
Madam_Jingles
 
PostPosted: Thu, Sep 12 2019, 11:47 AM 

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That Guy wrote:
Just my quick 2 cents, if it's worth even that.

The whole languages thing on Amia really doesn't work. After all, we do see what was said, and try as we might to ignore it, we're human and it's still there, you can't unsee it.

Also, try as I might, I still respond to Pearl's Aquan speech at times, and have to retcon it. I'm not sure adding another "language" to an already confusing and complicated communication system is necessary.

I realize part of your rp is her inability to speak common, and I don't wish to deny you that. But, if you wish to play that type of character, the onus is on YOU to roleplay it, not to make the playerbase bend to your concept. That came out a lot meaner than I meant it to be, but I think you understand what I mean.

Another thing! To communicate, both parties must know the language, so, since this is not a thing currently, anyone who wanted to use this sign language would need to learn it, and, with that have the requisite INT to learn another language.

It just gets quite messy and complicated if you ask me.



Yeah, I definitely agree with the complexity of the whole language thing already, and the INT thing. I'm not trying to 'bend the player base' to suit my needs. Pearl has plenty of ways to communicate when needed, EHS being the one that is almost never used.
Just wanted to bring this up as a lore discussion, not really a 'put this language in to benefit me in particular!'
Otherwise I wouldn't have looked it up to begin with :P
Since I couldn't find it in the lore, I already decided to remove it from Pearl's knowledge since it wouldn't make sense without a proper reference.
Just wanted a discussion on it. :)

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walnutboy
 
PostPosted: Thu, Sep 12 2019, 11:59 AM 

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I wouldn't really remove it as such, Pearl has used it in front of people and to be fair when used it towards Ly if left her wandering round annoyed. Think of it, they were each speaking different languages openly... then Pearl does a series of hand gestures and walks away to another group of people! It's little IC misunderstandings like that which often give rise to Ly getting aggressively annoyed with people. :twisted:

But yeah, I don't think it's Lore so much as more a personal character thing.

Edit
Also why I voted I don't mind either way.

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robbi320
 
PostPosted: Thu, Sep 12 2019, 12:26 PM 



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Drow have a particular reason to know hand sign, and so do rogues, with thieves cant. I'd argue that, at the very least, if it exists, an elven had sign isn't common knowledge at all. I'm being a bit lazy here, I'll admit, going competely off Wikipedia for references, but it still shows the point. German Sign Language, "spoken" by the German people with hearing impairments, is spoken in Germany and Luxembourg, in total supposedly around 200.000-400.000 people. Compared to the 84 million inhabitants of both countries combined, you've got about 0.2-0.4% of the population speaking sign language. American Sign Language, (which is used in more than just the USA) is used by around 250.000-500.000 people. Spread that on the US population of 327.000.000 people, you've got about 0.07-0.15% of the population knowing sign language.

And that's in a modern society, that actually has the time and resources to learn languages. A society where most of the people, while perhaps not living an ideal life, there aren't big bad monsters trying to kill your oxen, your only income and food, and where the winter doesn't regularly cause food shortages, like on Amia. In the US, that could be argued as one of the most developed nations, in a thousand people, not even two speak sign language. Germany, not much better. And that is counting the deaf people among the few that -do- speak it. In a medieval-inspired setting, even one as "developed" as the elves, I really can't see this spread even this far.

According to this thread, Cordor's population is about 15 thousand. If we applied modern percentages to it, there's about 15-30 people who know sign in Cordor. Of those, I'd estimate at least 5-10 are deaf themselves. Winya is a much smaller settlement, compared to Cordor. If we factor in the much worse living conditions of these places, looking at them from a point of a less developed place, perhaps the deaf, and their families have developed some form of sign, and even then, I'd wager it's more of a "family sign language", and not something unified and standardised, like a full elven hand sign.


Of course, on Amia, languages don't really follow the lore at all, where people randonly know all sorts of languages, and common, unlike the way it works in the Forgotten Realms, is a fully fledged language, that makes any sort of regional language useless.


 
      
Shadowfiend
 
PostPosted: Thu, Sep 12 2019, 15:50 PM 

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This is a bit of a tangent but I personally don't agree with how sign languages are usually used on Amia. I don't know much about sign language in rl, admittedly, but I don't think sign languages can be used to have full fledged conversations to the same extent normal language does. Instead the conversation should be much simpler and far less nuanced since it's a harder way to communicate and lends itself better to shorter and simpler messages.

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Madam_Jingles
 
PostPosted: Thu, Sep 12 2019, 16:06 PM 

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Shadowfiend wrote:
This is a bit of a tangent but I personally don't agree with how sign languages are usually used on Amia. I don't know much about sign language in rl, admittedly, but I don't think sign languages can be used to have full fledged conversations to the same extent normal language does. Instead the conversation should be much simpler and far less nuanced since it's a harder way to communicate and lends itself better to shorter and simpler messages.




I have studied some sign language, and while some signs are used for various words, most signs are for one word, and it actually can be quite complex and fluid, lending to full conversations full of details.
It's moreso Thieves Cant that's simple and short, given the 'signs' are things like pulling your ear to indicate you know something or scratching the side of your nose to signal you understand, not full on words.

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Shadowfiend
 
PostPosted: Thu, Sep 12 2019, 16:33 PM 

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I think the same would be true for drow hand sign.

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Gravemaskin
 
PostPosted: Thu, Sep 12 2019, 17:19 PM 

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Languages in D&D And FR specifically are kind of complicated.
While it's accurate that the drow are the only ones who have an actual fleshed-out sign language, it makes sense to assume that people who can't speak develop signs, gestures and potentially noise generation such as with clapping to communicate with people or vocalizing the noises they can make to communicate with others and that people they are close with would know or recognize the meaning of all or most of them. However, there is no unifying broadly used sign language among any other group of people than the Drow.

The cause for this is quite simple, everyone has different languages and generally, there is no great empire to force them to do otherwise. Common is the outlier here, and it's important to remember that common isn't nearly as complex as it's being used here on Amia. Common is a trade language and functions mainly as such, serving mostly as a simple form of communication beyond that. (FR Campaign setting, p 84.) Most if not all would prefer to speak their own regional dialects and while many of those share the same language group or roots, they generally don't share enough to let people make themselves understood when speaking to someone else from the same language group. For this reason, common is also less "common" than you might think, as it has thousands of local dialects as well. (FR Campaign setting, p 85.) It is basically been treated as English on Amia for simplicity's sake and because it just makes it easier when RPing, but it's not entirely lore accurate. Realistically most should be speaking their own local languages whenever they have the opportunity to, because of the limited and restrictive nature of common.
Similarly thieves' cant doesn't have a widespread sign language as it's a specific trick of the trade type language that helps local rogues communicate without being understood and one could be safe to assume that it has just as many regional (although here it'd be more guild or rogue group-specific rather than regional) variants on both the spoken verbal part of it and for handsigns and signals used to coordinate with others during a heist or robbery or whatever other situation one might have to use it for. For much the same reason, it would also be safely assumed that most established militaries have a rudimentary sign language that is known by most their soldiers, to help facilitate communication between soldiers without alerting nearby enemies, as this is something that has been true for most of human history.

The reason for the any lack of an english equivalent is simple, nobody has managed to conquer western faerun long enough to establish one, and because of that, no widespread common equivilent sign language either. Kara-tur is an example of a large empire where an empire wide language is used, High Shou. But western faerun lack an equivalent to that, there's no british, spanish or french empire that establishes colonies in far off countries to spread the use of their own language. Most nonhuman races, however, share one language rather than several different regional ones. As I understand it this is mostly because nonhuman races tend to be more unified in both language and custom than most human regions. So this lends some weight to the notion that other non-human races with mutes might have a more developed form of communication between a mute population BUT the wholesale lack of a largescale education system makes this difficult if not impossible to establish for more than a single generation as almost all of Faerun, regardless of race lacks a proper education system and instead survives on small-scale vocational-schools and apprenticeships for every aspect of day-to-day jobs. The closest thing you come to anything like it are bards, who facilitate the spread of information through their traveling, songs and gossip and thus could be considered unofficial "educators" when it comes to the world outside of any given region.

If you want to dive deeper down the language rabbit hole, I recommend reading the Forgotten campaign setting, which has a section on languages, Dragon Annual #4 (1999) which has a whole section dedicated to human regional languages and suggests some RL comparisons to several regional variants, as well as Dragon #66 which has a primer and pocket dictionary for thieves' cant.

IMHO, you should pick the option I outlined at the top and give her her own "language" by means of gestures, signs and noises that she could teach to her close friends and associates. This also shouldn't need to follow normal language limitations because it's not a wholly established language with the same complexities, rules and alphabet that all officially established languages have. It'd be no different than if any 1 group decided to make their own secret language be it hand-gesturing signs (I'd imagine not just most militaries but also most ships have a well established set of signs that all sailors understand, to facilitate communication in noisy waters for instance) or thieves' cant style secret languages that the group utilizes for more complex communication.

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Madam_Jingles
 
PostPosted: Thu, Sep 12 2019, 18:21 PM 

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Gravemaskin wrote:
Languages in D&D And FR specifically are kind of complicated.

.....

(I'd imagine not just most militaries but also most ships have a well established set of signs that all sailors understand, to facilitate communication in noisy waters for instance) or thieves' cant style secret languages that the group utilizes for more complex communication.



Your entire post is really well put, and I'm inclined to agree.

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ucfgoose
 
PostPosted: Sat, Sep 14 2019, 3:23 AM 

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"If we hadn't a voice or a tongue, and wanted to express things to one another, wouldn't we try to make signs by moving our hands, head, and the rest of our body, just as dumb people do at present?" - Socrates

My thoughts on this are as follows:

1. Chances are that any sign language will be regional in scope. There is a regional sign language used on Martha's Vineyard. There was one used in the Ottoman court. Even though they use the same base speaking and written language there are many differences to between American Sign Language and British Sign language, one of the more ironic of which is that the sign for a hearing person in BSL is the same as that for a deaf person in ASL. The drow are an exception having their own that would be understood by all members of their subrace and definitely an outlier.

2. That doesn't mean that you can't try to express yourself in a way someone will understand. I may not know what all your fancy hand motions that you use with those from your home village mean but that doesn't mean that you pointing at me, frowning, and slashing a finger across your throat is going to be interpreted as you wanting to help me move a couch. Having played a mute character all I can suggest is that you follow the KISS principle.

3. Use the above as a roleplaying opportunity. Develop the language yourself. Teach classes to other characters. Calm down a situation where you discussing a recipe for banana nut bread is interpreted by an ogre to be a challenge to the size of his manhood.

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Jes
 
PostPosted: Sat, Sep 14 2019, 14:11 PM 

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I agree that it would be regional. Faerun doesn't have the benefit of television or internet to allow for the kind of exposure they would need for a universal sign language like we do. If it's developed at all, it's regional. I think that's how it should be for drow hand sign also. If a drow from Menzoberranzan comes into contact with one from Guallidurth, they absolutely should not immediately fully understand each other's signs, and it probably acts as a warning to both of them that they're dealing with someone from out of town.

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A Majestic Dwarf
 
PostPosted: Sun, Sep 15 2019, 12:47 PM 

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Jes wrote:
I agree that it would be regional. Faerun doesn't have the benefit of television or internet to allow for the kind of exposure they would need for a universal sign language like we do. If it's developed at all, it's regional. I think that's how it should be for drow hand sign also. If a drow from Menzoberranzan comes into contact with one from Guallidurth, they absolutely should not immediately fully understand each other's signs, and it probably acts as a warning to both of them that they're dealing with someone from out of town.


In the background that is how it is for Drow hand sign. My understanding is that there would be a "City" version of the sign language which would be well known. This would be so that there could be cooperation between the various elements of the city for example, military patrols. Then Each house, would have a variant of that sign language, so that they could hoodwink the other houses. I do not really see these languages as the sort of language you would want to have a deep and meaningful conversation in the basis of their use being military and subterfuge. Great for covert orders and communication of basic concepts, not very good at discussing the nature of the universe.

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Strom
 
PostPosted: Mon, Sep 16 2019, 12:59 PM 

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The fact Pearl wasn't the one who initiated the Armathora's hand sign, kinda needs to be taken into account here. It is most certainly a regional thing.

If I remember correctly, the origins of it were actually because some Shrine members taught the Armathora scouts of the White March a simplified version of hand-sign for elven use - whilst keeping the more complex stuff to themselves - so they could use it on joint operations. This was back when Silent2001 was running 'Blood and Snow'. I remember this quite keenly because we had an ill-fated scouting mission, where the Armathora were using hand sign to aid in moving silently up towards the barbarian camp.

As AMD suggests, it was very much a simple form of communication. "Go here.", "Quietly.", "Shoot that."

Not, "Man's inhumanity to man is the truest expression of the true nature of humankind, and why they shall never know the unity of the People."

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Madam_Jingles
 
PostPosted: Mon, Sep 16 2019, 14:55 PM 

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This kindof makes me wonder if the more 'magical' languages would also be regional and vary.
Draconic comes to mind.. Like could the language vary from where they are, chromatic/metallic? But they also live so long that perhaps it's more generalized?
Obviously it'd be seen as a solid language like the others for simplicities sake, but now I'm all curious about how ot would be realistically, outside of RP.
Same with the elemental languages. It's interesting to think about and fun to discuss.

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robbi320
 
PostPosted: Mon, Sep 16 2019, 15:22 PM 



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I'm pretty sure one of the dragon books mentions that. Draconic has type-specific nuances to it. Not quite to the extent that a human who learned it ever would notice, but a red dragon would use a somewhat different vocabulary than a blue, for example. I believe it even goes so far that a dragon can sort of tell who/what a human learned their draconic from, if they pay attention.


 
      
Jes
 
PostPosted: Mon, Sep 16 2019, 15:33 PM 

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It's the same with elves and humans. Each of the elven subraces has their own sort of semi-sub-language. And we know all about the regional human languages. There is no "Common" after all. (Except on Amia.)

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Angelis96
 
PostPosted: Tue, Sep 17 2019, 12:50 PM 

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Personally, I think this comes more into a lacking of detail in a setting than a general stipulation that general sign languages in the setting do not exist.

The limitation of any lore setting is the fact that the creators inevitably will not plan ahead or look into concepts for things to exist if they do not perceive the notion beforehand.

In short, every story setting ever made has these holes in them.

That being said, my personal opinion is that~ short of the setting directly stipulating something does not and cannot exist. There is no reason why it couldn't be made to. After all. You have gnomes in the setting that invent gadgets. Or cities that don't exist verbatim in the setting lore. these things have been added by the development of the setting from the people that have played within it. So why can't a language be invented in the same manner?

Also the fact that Amia is in fact an excessively small island. So there would be no logical reason to suggest that anyone, at any time could not come up with a method of communication that does not require word to mouth communication to aid in conversation with those that do not have the grace in which to do so that could generally be understood from those around the isle overall with time.

The argument could even be had for more racial dialects as well, such as Elven.

The whole dynamic of an RP setting the thing that makes it feel alive, vibrant like a living and breathing world around you at all times. Is that, through time and actions, the setting can be changed, for better or for worse. World and Character development is the fundamental pillar of Roleplay. And one, I myself support 100% personally.


So, I think if someone actually put in the time and effort to ICly 'invent' a language and promote it. There's no reason that something like this couldn't be done at all. So I'm all for it, I think it's a wonderful idea and something that could promote fun social Roleplay opportunities between players over long periods of time.

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Richard_Edmund
 
PostPosted: Tue, Sep 17 2019, 13:51 PM 

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Education in the Forgotten Realms is typically reserved for people who can afford it, and who live in built up civilized lands. This means that the teaching of any kind of language beyond a person's racial/regional dialect and Common is rare.

Sign Language in the Forgotten Realms can be reasonably assumed to not be universal, and very basic and mundane in its uses, such as trading or conveying basic emotions or wants. As well as being locked to within a very specific location such as a specific district or small town immediately around where the disabled person actually lives.

In saying that, that's Forgotten Realms. Amia has it's own setting in which Cordor has free (I think) education in the form of the Blue Skies academy. So sky's the limit to what you want to create. Ignore people who say it "It isn't lore!" because the point of playing in a persistent world is that lore can be created!

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