Terrifying Rage
11(33intimidate/3)+12(24 levels of barb/2)+11 (21 con +12) +1 (skill focus) +3 (esf) = DC 38 Will with 2 feat investment and ignores spellcraft save bonuses

Weird
10(base) +9 (spell level) +11 (21int+12) +6 (epic spell focus) = DC 36 with 3 feat investment and respects spellcraft save bonuses

That's 2 more with 1 less feat investment and the same investment in the attribute that governs it. Not quite sure how that's underpowered...

Let's pimp out both to the upper levels of what you could get on the server and compare them.

Terrifying rage
11(33intimidate/3)+15(30barb/2)+ 15 (28 con +12) +1 (skill focus) +3 (epic skill focus) = DC 45 and ignores spellcraft save bonuses (And it can go higher with more con investment, though 28 base con would leave you with low 20's base dex or str and make your AB while raging closer to an unbuffed wm in trade for the insanely high will DC)

Weird
10(base) +9 (spell level) + 16 (30 int/cha+12) +6 = DC 41 will and respects spellcraft save bonuses (You CAN get it to DC 43 with enough great int/cha while retaining 29 or 30 caster levels, but it will cripple a build from doing anything but illusion spells more or less)

Terrifying rage comes out on top here as well.. So again.. I'm not really sure how this cripples the feat at all.. Especially since it's a lingering aura which means you can simply use a breach scroll or a greater tome of mystra to remove mindblanks and run near people before they react. With weird, you have to first disjunction, then cast weird. (Same thing, but can more easily be countered if you time the potion chug)

For those who don't know, here is the breach list and the order of spells breached.. 90% of the time when not fighting a mage, you WILL remove a lesser mindblank potion with a lesser spell breach, due to the spells on the breach list. IF you're fighting a mage, you can do it most of the time with a greater spell breach.

This change has brought the terrifying aura down to the same level as other things with DC's and out of the ream of high 70's and 90's saves... which you can completely circumvent with a healthy dose of breach scrolls. It's not broken it, it's balanced it.. and if you think your DC is low, then do the same as mages that go for high DC's do and invest in the feats and ability for it. It will make you weaker in other aspects, just as it does for mages there.. Mages who don't go higher than 20 in their main casting ability tend to be melee mages that more than make up for a lower DC trough other capabilities.. The same choice is now forced upon barbarians. It's not ruining the build, it's balancing it. AND you're still getting more, because you get more rages than a mage would get a high will DC spell, it's a lingering aura that can hit multiple people over a long period and it's a 3 feat investment for insane utility. I'm completely discounting the skill investment cost because barbarians get 4 skills per level + int mod and that's 2 more than wizards, sorcs, fighters and clerics and the same as druid, monk and bard, and 4 less than rogues.. Which means they're in the middle on skill choices from levels alone. IF they had the same progression as the ones with 2 + int, then I'd factor it into account but on skill choices they are in the upper half as bards have to dump into perform and barbarians don't NEED intimidate, unless they really want it.. and if Bards can fit in perform, you can fit in intimidate. (Also level 30 bards tend to go for both epic and normal skill focus to hit the mark and ease up equipment cost for skill bonuses.. barbarians can do the same and need NO intimidate on their gear anymore.. at all, and bards need to invest 5 to unlock all options around their skill based ability or 4 if they don't want the extra 5 rounds.. barbarians need 3.)

These are simple facts and comparisons on similar stuff already in the game. It's an attempted objective take on the benefits and gains of the terrifying rage when compared to other class features of similar DC or investment cost. Terrifying rage is now balanced and on the same level as other things, without having to be the sole focus of a build and actually puts it in the upper half of the balance spectrum because your rages give a crap ton of other bonuses that can put Barbs well above fighter/wms in clearing efficiency and pvp while also having the potential to give barbarians the second highest AB on the server, trumped only by AA's.

If you think balancing this has made it useless, then you need to re-assess how you view balance.

edit:
Fixed wail with weird and the DC calculation.. stat calculation should have been 11 not 8.

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Adair - Druid and part time treant cosplayer

The major difference is that a mage will want to have a high int. Just about everything a mage will want scales off int. (except for a spellblades, but there's a reason they seldomly use spells to deal damage, it's usually more of a focus on buffing, yes, they have a few spells, but it's not the major part)
A wizard based around casting offensive spells (therefore: is focusing on it being an intrinsic part of the build) can get a DC of 30+spell level, with a 'low' +14 int mod. The spell focuses help you with quite a few spells, that, in PvP can hit one target a lot. Let's say your wizard likes to cast extended, he still has more than five uses of wail, or whatever spell you like to use. Or, the 1v1 favourite, mass grease and an AoE damage spell. Here, youur high int helps you, because your damage is increased by the higher DC.
For the three feats, on top of Wail, you get horrid wilting, fear, for another a pretty strong summon, finger of death, just to name some of the better necromancy spells.

Also, you're kind of comparing apples to oranges, because wail and terrirage really aren't similar. One is one-hit-kill, the other is a 1d3 round fear. Fear means you're not getting full Attacks out. One targets fortitude, the other targets will. A more fitting example would be the fear spell, which gives a lasting doom effect, lasts 5 rounds, at three feat investement. Now, yes, the DC is 'only 34', but it's a stronger spell. Also, Mindblank does nothing against wail, and a mage can have breaches as well, he can have multiple mords, he can have just as many tomes of mystra and scrolls as a barb. Lastly, a Wizard has more space to fit these feats into his build. (again, not talking about spellswords, because they don't usually do offensive spells)

Now, a Barb. What does a Barb get based off of con? A higher DC, more hp, and longer rage. The DC, while yes, 45 seems like a lot, your strength is sitting at 14, probably. Some other builds can pull this off easily, but a barb with 14 strength gets a pretty low AB. 14 str means 41 AB with a +5 weapon. Even the +6 AB puts it into 'decent' territory, and that means giving up on the other rages.

It's more like comparing it to a con RDD. You get a nice DC 47/48 breath weapon. But apart from that, it does pretty little. You're putting your whole build into gimmick, and underperform because of it, or you just never use said gimmick, because it does nothing for you.

Claiming barbarians get the highest AB on the server is a pretty tricky thing to say, because they get two AB more than a WM, and have that half of the time. So, you're actually wrong. A WM will still have more AB, when he chugs a True Strike. And when the barb counters with the same, WM still has more.


Comparing int for wizards to con for barbs is almost like comparing str for WMs to Wis for rogues: You do get a bonus, but it really isn't that big.

Yeah that's my bad, I meant the weird spell not wail, which is the only level 9 spell that can be changed to fear from the BoT and why I used it since it's going to be the highest DC fear spell any mage can get.

Also there are still options on damage spells that don't require a DC and thus gain nothing from the increased DC. The prime example of this is IGMS and ice storm, and it's just as potent on a 20 int wizard as it is on a 40 int wizard, and why they're popular with spellblade builds. Also with damage spells, most of these have reflex saves for half, and reflex is the second most popular save to grab. Will is the one most usually neglect because of lesser mind blank potions, and it's something Barbs can capitalize off of trough terrifying rage and lesser or greater spell breaches (Both scrolls are buyable from NPC vendors)

A lot of damage spells are highly dependent on people not making the DC, sure... And even then people do it most of the time. Forcing barbs to have to do the same but to a lesser degree helps balance out an ability that's been broken since the dawn of the server and was intended to be changed several times in the past. Tormak said it's been up for discussion for 5 years, but I also remember it being brought up several times back when I joined 10 years ago. Right now it's less effective in PvP, but can give you a huge upper hand if you know how to capitalize on it, and it's spectacular for pve farming.

With con it's the most bang for your buck ability to invest in across the board, unless you're going for a dex build.
For 2 STR you gain +1 ab and damage, for 2 Dex, you get potentially 1 AB, 1 AC and +1 reflex, for Con you get +30 HP, +1 Fort. I'd say that now going a dex/con barb is very viable as barbs can get great AC, reflex (to help fight most damage spells that require reflex), high AB and decent enough damage thanks to their rage, while also getting insanely tanky with HP only rivaled by DWD's. Max out your heal and you're going to be able to heal for 88-126 hp per round once the heal potion is chugged, which should make you able to tank the majority of burst damage from a mage.

If the Terrifying rage duration has been nerfed to 1d3 rounds (It's not announced on the classes and feats section or the changelog) then I'll agree that it seems overly short for the 3 feat and 33 skill investment and should be brought up to 4 rounds, same as the fear spell.

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Adair - Druid and part time treant cosplayer

All I have to go on for the duration is the NWNWikia, which states 1d3 rounds.

Well, no offense, but there's a reason I've never seen weird used, except for the singular time I used it, just because I like the VFX.

I'm a bit unsure how high you want to go with your dex/con spread, to be honest. At best, it seems like you could go for 20/20, maybe. In which case, your AC isn't really all that good. It's sitting just barely above the standard 55, at 56, maybe a really slight bit higher.

Your calculation is a bit off, to be honest. It confused me, while going through the old post.
And my own math/thought process was off somewhere as well...

And I feel like I made a few mistakes in my posts.

So, what I said about barbs is only true for devCrit barb. He'll not have a DC over 30, realistically. Now, he actually has a pretty decent AB and all that, so him having a DC of around 30 isn't too bad. He still has quite a few other tricks, and I might simply not go terrirage on him anymore. (not sure)

Now, mighty rage, or any other barb that goes to 21 con or more, he'll have, just based on int, barb and con, a DC of 34, 38 with two feats, which is pretty good, considering it is against will.


So, apart from my derp there, I do still think it should have a longer duration than 1d3 rounds, but I personally think 5 rounds might be better, considering it is an epic feat. (Also, in a certain way, your math was off, since the high DC barb does use three feats, and two epic ones at that, as opposed to two pre-epic ones, like a wizard)

And, sadly, the 30 hp aren't really doing that much. 30 hp does very little difference in my experience. Yes, it sums up if you have a lot, but one AB is almost always better than 30 hp, because that AB is making it more likely to end the fight earlier.



I realize this post is all over the place, even worse than my previous ones... Sorry.

Digging in the terrifying rage script (x2_s2_terrage_A), the duration is indeed d3 unless Amia's changed it. (Did this because I don't trust wiki's and I wanted to be sure <.<)

IF the fear immunity applies when you fail a roll and not only when you succeed one, it seems like an excessive nerf, though I doubt this is the case.
I also see there is a condition in the original script, where if the barbarian is twice your level, you loose 2 AB and 2 of all saves.. SO IF there is now an immunity that prevents you from getting feared again after failing your save, it might be another way to bump up the feat a bit by making the 2 AB and 2 save loss part of the failed save in addition to the fear instead of increasing the fear duration, and give the ab/save debuff a duration of the Barbs Con modifier. It'd be a nice middle ground, and nothing too spectacular or completely useless that got added on it, and it'd up the chances of them failing the fear roll next time it checks for it.. Though again.. only if the fear immunity is applied regardless of a failed or successful save.

Though I'm pretty sure it only gives the fear immunity on a successful save for a few rounds to prevent aura abuseage, not when you fail the fear roll, and in that case it's fine as is imho. It means it greatly rewards barbs going for a high DC since it opens up for people failing the roll more than once and staying feared for a good bit of time as long as the barb can remain close to them, which feels like the intended design of the ability and as stated the immunity has a short duration so there's a high probability of people having to make multiple rolls in a fight unless one build is very superior to the other and both players know what they're doing. Besides getting feared for d3 rounds while on half HP or something can flat out loose you the fight, same as failing a devcrit could, so there's still plenty of situations where it can be the deciding factor, and thus remain useful but not overly so, same as Dev. (Actually probably more useful than dev in those situations, since most people have 40+ fort now and devvers tend to be fishing for 1's (5% chances), rather than a 5->% chance, since will isn't usually high.. if someone's got 30 Will vs the 38 terrifying rage, that's a 35% chance of failing every time it's checked. Though most tend to have low 20's OR 40+ if it's a wis based class.)

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Adair - Druid and part time treant cosplayer