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I cast Raise Dead on this discussion: IA old Thread

From what I've looked about, I don't think I saw anything further on this. I can't quote from that page but Svensk brought up some good points and gave a good summary of the arguments and a description of the impacts on Drow.

Was this ever resolved or further discussed? Could we get some feedback on this? More folk would probably come play Drow, for a start, and we'd probably be regarded as a bit scarier if we could get access to further feats like everyone else.

I'm not for lowering or removing the ECL on Drow, personally.

Quote:

-> Kiaransaleeans have no access to Winterwight,
-> Ghaunadaurites have no access to Epic Wild Shape IV,
-> Vhaeraunites are lousy Shadowdancers because of how Epic Shadowfiend scaling works.
-> Mages have no access to Hellball

These should still be fixed, to accommodate Drow, though.

Pretty much the one of the amian circular topics. My answer is always the same in it. I still think drow is pretty much among the worst subraces you can choose from. They do need something far more than they're getting, which is inconsequential SR and incompatible ability boosts if you want to warrant something like +2. Otherwise, even +1 makes them worse than wood elf at just about everything.

TormakSaber wrote:

I'm not for lowering or removing the ECL on Drow, personally.

Ditto. Doing so would be silly and insane. There'd be zero reason to be any other race at all save maybe svirfneblin for wisdom (assuming if drow ECL got removed, so would their's). ECL is important, otherwise this becomes a server like Arelith where anyone who wants the most powerful builds drow/svirfneblin because how they apply ECL is inconsequential. If ECL got removed, I'm putting a request in for all my characters to become victims of Polymorph Other spells gone awry because as a player, I'd feel I was getting gypped and can't be arsed to build a "Rashad 2.0, now with pointy ears and a bad tan" just to get something everybody else is.

At the moment, it's bad enough there really isn't much "bad" to being a drow as it seems 90% of them are living on the surface in polite society as is, going in and out of most places and most people just ignoring their race in general entirely.

TormakSaber wrote:

Quote:

-> Kiaransaleeans have no access to Winterwight,
-> Ghaunadaurites have no access to Epic Wild Shape IV,
-> Vhaeraunites are lousy Shadowdancers because of how Epic Shadowfiend scaling works.
-> Mages have no access to Hellball

These should still be fixed, to accommodate Drow, though.

I'm for all these because they are things drow are cannonically known for...save maybe the shifter one. Drow are great shadowdancers, mages, and necromancers sure. Shapeshifters? Don't really recall any affinity for that at all in anything I've ever read about them (and I've got a whole shelf of drow-specific product). Indeed, for such an arrogant race, it seems antithetical to me that they'd even want to lower themselves to such a thing as pretending to be something other than drow - much less make it their way of life. Other drow would scorn such a person as his entire existence would be a suggestion that drow are not the best race ever formed. Plus, Ghaunadaur has nothing to do with shifters or shapeshifting at all really.

I do have a problem with winter-wights, but that's winter-wight lore in general, nothing to do with drow. The idea that any mortal has plumbed the knowledge and technique necessary to create a creature that the greatest, most powerful, and first demilich of all time (his name being Acererak for all you kids out there who didn't have parents with cool D&D books) took eons to craft - requires a unique artifact the size of a tower - and being at the heart of the negative plane to make is beyond absurd to me. Much less a failed arcanist doing it is laughable, but I digress.

"Oh I got some levels and now I made this neat-o thing I know nothing about and really have no ingame way of ever learning of, much less ever pulling off."

/old man grumble & rant over

Wouldn't it be easy to make one of Terra's new widgetthings with Hellball and give it to the pcs fulfilling the requirements?

Make Lesser Drow an option (will look up the stats for people unfamiliar) and give free rebuilds to anyone who wants to take the plunge. It's basically only as bad as moon elf, which is still better. Pretty sure it would solve a lot of problems.

The numeric scaling on spells could just have GetCasterLevel + level adjustment and a level 28 Drow would count as level 30. Getting the stats you need past 28 is however a problem, only way to get there would be to add/remove feats and or modify base skill-ranks which is also possible but it gets complicated.

I could probably nwnx GetCasterLevel and simply add on the level adjustment on the backend and we'd not have to modify every single script.

Whatever helps Drow be less of a crappy compromise, I'm all for

SamTheGiantSlayer wrote:

Whatever helps Drow be less of a crappy compromise, I'm all for

Yes please.

Honestly, mechanically Drow are a joke. The +2 ECL borks them. Hell, far as I have understood our ECL doesn't even work like how Level Adjustment actually works in DnD.

Hell, Wood Elf is more powerful than Drow as a subrace and they have no ECL adjustment. Yes, sure, claim the three positive vs one negative stat is good; those are not synergistic at all.

Drow are supposed to be scary >_> They are a joke. Explain to me why a drow can't have a 24/4/2 cleric build when another race can. So drow can't be as pious/effective as other races? It's terribad.

I'm fine with the ECL staying. But I do think the subrace's power should validate that ECL, by general standards. Even without missing out the class features they miss out on, -2 levels means you're -1 AB(-2 circumstantially) and 1-2 Feats short. That's a very significant thing in terms of build. What they gain in place of those feats and AB being worth it is what this discussion has always boiled down to.

My suggestion, in addition to the easy Skill/CL requirement fixes would be to have Drow/Svirneblin SR be only partially reducible by things like Mords and Spell Breaches, and additionally give all Drow the Faerie Fire widget. It's always a difficult thing to tout Drow SR as the main reason they deserve the ECL, but it's treated like SR straight from an item rather than a racial feature. I would say have the amount it can be reduced equal to ~half the normal amount for breach spells(-5 SR for Mords for example). As for giving them Faerie Fire, since (currently) it's assumed that all Drow are noble at creation, it's an ability many would have been trained to do in their higher learning. There may be a few other doodads along those lines that would fit as well, representing the type of stuff a drow of sufficient upbringing would have access to(sorcere schooling, temple upbringing, shadow affinity, etc).

Point is, for me the remedy doesn't lie in removing or lowering the ECL, so much as in elevating the Subrace to warrant the current ECL.

I wouldn't mind keeping the ECL, as with what previous people have said -- I'd just like it to be worth having the extra ECL. Drow can't make the majority of the powerful builds people like on this server due to the fact that we miss out on two levels. So we can't really be the scary thing that somehow has 2 ECL when we're not as powerful as folk up above.

If I understand things correctly, ECL is there to prevent the worst powerbuilds. But at the same time, people taking a race for fluff instead of mechanics are punished twice: Once for not choosing the race with the optimal stats and once for being hit by a penalty that wasn't really meant for them.

So why not make ECL a per character thing, that can be negated with a DC request? The additional levels could be priced individually, meaning it would be more affordable to gain "RP abilities" than that Armorskin and extra Epic Spell level you couldn't fit in anymore.

Overall, I'm not too worried that people with lots of DCs are just in it for the PvP lulz and loot.

Regards
Ts

Well, alright. I would sooner remove the ECL (and drop some of their abilities to compensate) because it's near impossible to balance against 1-2 epic feats, +1 AB and saves, 2 more skill ranks and assorted skill points, two levels of additional build flex, no matter what you add. And since so much of the server caters to level 30s, that's kind of what needs to be balanced against... without breaking the leveling process.

But I don't have a stake in this fight anymore.

We should just remove all ECLs >_> ECL =! LA according to DnD rules.

The DCs to regain "missing" levels thing is interesting. It's true that it's hard to balance out all the things that 1-2 levels give with other perks, because it varies so much by build. Even then, at max levels, a few spell perks don't really make up for those things. It could be argued that the extra Abilities are supposed to do that, but if you happen not to be a Int/Cha build, it's not like you benefit that much from them.

My concern is that it becomes the new norm for building with ECL races. Just like any DC purchase/item/ability there should be good RP reasoning behind it. And I'm not sure what a good criteria for certain PCs being able to rise above their ECL would be.

That's a can of worms I would never want to open, allowing PCs to ascend beyond level limits so... IMO, so far beyond the veil of any degree of fairness as to be ridiculous.

You're looking at it in a rather complicated way. The DC request doesn't need to balance a Drow 28 vs a potential Drow 30. The request should balance Drow 30 vs Other Suitable Race 30, typically stock human.

So essentially you're looking for the DC price of an SR 42 item, and very likely a hard +2 to one key ability (maybe 2 abilities) and light sensitivity vs a pre-epic feat.

There are some builds that are never ever possible on another race but X and for them it would be more difficult, I admit it. Most builds don't fall into that category, though.

Regards
Ts

Well the problem is that there is no established agreement that drow as is is weaker. And even if we established it to be the case, then it would be a question of "Well why dont we just apply the balancing factors to all drow?" Either way it ends up unfair. DC requests are meant to make things cool, customised. Not stronger (Ideally anyway).

Also isnt drow racial SR level +11? Maxing at 39? How did you get 42?

Slight error, SR41 would be the correct number at level 30.

And DC requests do make people more powerful, and if that wasn't allowed or usual, we wouldn't have premade prices for powerful weapons and stuff.

Individually you'll make the char a lot stronger with extra levels. But only little stronger than the same build on a human (or Sun elf, or Aasimar). That's what needs to be balanced against.

I'm against simply dropping th ECL because it might allow one extremely powerful builds that capitalizes on all strengths of a drow. But most chars will only be marginally stronger tham other common builds with the same level 30 class spread. Some chars will even be mechanically weaker even at level 30 because their race is not suited for them at all.

Remember that ECL tries to eatablish power balance. In concrete instances, and there's a lot of thouse outside the minmaxer circle, it does the opposite.

So have a Iook at my -2 WIS orog cleric that is WIS-focused and has +1 ECL. How would it upset the server balance if I took another level? And that's not even the worst example. ECL for power reasons make zero sense sometimes. What other reason is there for ECL?

How such a DC request would look like? RP in the class to be taken.

Regards
Ts

Ps: It is an unusual perspective to balance requests like that. But it is the same perspective that gives rise to ECL, so I think it's appropriate in this case.
Pps: I'm not complaining about my orog, it's just an example I know very well. And in the end, the build is only slightly gimped.

By my short experience, drows are fit for most builds as other races, can reach mostly same top limits of AB/AC etc. Only problem is, that you have be more extreme in some builds, you cant reach few builds cause of losing 2 lvls, and some builds dont reach as high in certain areas but gain as drow a bit better attributes and SR which greatly improves survibality (I hope I spelled it right).

Most builds that I would try/play/tried to create are playable both as drow or non-drow. Final result of both version is so similar that question that rises (if I ignore RP and look at it only from system point of view) is - do I want to have one more trick in my sleeve / few more (max 3) points in AB or AC or do I want to have spell resist to most PvE casters (and slight edge in PvP)?

My concern wasn't so much of the regaining levels thing being a can of worms as I meant it's kinda so large a deal that it couldn't/shouldn't be standardized.

It's like if a Lv 30 non-ECL race requested an ability or two that gave +1 AB(or +2 CL) and the equivalent of an extra feat. Impossible? No, but it's a pretty big deal and would require RP that validated it. Additionally, it would be very dependent on the feats taken and the specific build. There's nothing particularly special about an ECL race asking for additional levels when you look at it like that; mechanically, it's just the means to an end. BUT it is such a significant thing that we couldn't just say "ECL races can gain levels up to 30 for X DC per gained level."

As I said before, I still think the bulk of our Drow ECL issues can be eased by changing the skill requirements for epic feats/class features and possibly making their SR more resilient. That may not be the full remedy, but it's certainly a step in the right direction, and we can gauge where to go from there.

Dark Immolation wrote:

I still think the bulk of our Drow ECL issues can be eased by changing the skill requirements for epic feats/class features

This seems like it is the best option given this -

MightNMagic wrote:

There'd be zero reason to be any other race at all save maybe svirfneblin for wisdom

is the likely outcome if we pendulum swing to far.

Last edited by Nalkanar on Wed, Oct 14 2015, 12:08 PM, edited 1 time in total.

delete please... pointless :roll:

... sry for spam

Dark Immolation wrote:

As I said before, I still think the bulk of our Drow ECL issues can be eased by changing the skill requirements for epic feats/class features and possibly making their SR more resilient. That may not be the full remedy, but it's certainly a step in the right direction, and we can gauge where to go from there.

Drow SR shouldn't be able to be lowered now, I believe. (along with svirfs maybe? I'm not sure on that) It was a change done... some time ago. And a wonderful boon. 39 SR is enough to hamper even full level casters who don't invest to overcome it.

Rigela wrote:

Drow SR shouldn't be able to be lowered now, I believe. (along with svirfs maybe? I'm not sure on that) It was a change done... some time ago. And a wonderful boon. 39 SR is enough to hamper even full level casters who don't invest to overcome it.

Racial SR being un-lowerable is pretty bullshit though. Should probably add more level adjustments to counteract that.

No it's not. Monk SR couldn't be lowered, and that wasn't even a racial bonus. It was stupid.

There's no spell that lowers SR in DnD anyways, so having Mord's lower SR at all makes little sense. Compensating racial SR in that fashion is the least that we could do.

Thing is that this is not DnD, its NWN. Turn it around, having DnD disjunction would be absolutely disgustingly OP in NWN. As it is currently SR is lowerable by spells because at a certain threshold of it you don't have to care about spells anymore at all unless you're facing a boss or pvp-ing a high level mage. Even lowered by mord at max level would be 30ish SR which means the caster you're facing either has to be max level or have penetration feats to completely negate it.

I can live with monk SR being un-lowerable because to get it to the same level as what you get for being a drow essentially means being a pure monk or spending epic feats. Don't think its cool to get those benefits just for picking a race. Then its already bad enough we're have immunities powercreeped in everywhere.

Before the SR was made impossible to reduce, Drow were easily beneath a threshold that would warrant ECL +2. As it stands, they're now a more real threat to surfacer adventurers without being too powerful. I'm innately against anything that further empowers sorcerers and wizards. You should have to pick Spell Penetration line feats and take more caster levels if you wanted to beat higher levels of Spell Resistance, not simply fire off an easily acquired spell that you would realistically use in every serious fight, anyway.

After the balance adjustments are made to enable Drow to acquire Hellballs, Winterwights and other previously unobtainable epic paraphernalia, I feel they're sitting right where they should, power-wise.

Naivatkal wrote:

No it's not. Monk SR couldn't be lowered, and that wasn't even a racial bonus. It was stupid.

There's no spell that lowers SR in DnD anyways, so having Mord's lower SR at all makes little sense. Compensating racial SR in that fashion is the least that we could do.

Wrong. Assay spell resistance. Incredibly powerful. Lowered their Sr by 10.

That's not how it works, it gives you a +10 bonus to your penetration check vs 1 target. But you can also dispel magic it.

Mord's drops a target's SR by 10 and everyone could exploit it. And you can use it as an AoE to hit a bunch of people. I mean, that makes sense for a level 9 vs level 4 spell but still.

Naivatkal wrote:

There's no spell that lowers SR in DnD anyways...

3.5 Ed. Draconomicon, p. 114 wrote:

My point still stands as that is a stupidly broken spell.

And being able to passively resist spells without any investment other then picking a race isn't broken? It wasnt broken when it had a counter, now it kinda is.

Drow is among the worst subraces available on our server. The fact that they now have 39 SR instead of 29 (since Mords) is what makes them even half-decent. You'll forgive me if I don't cry the horrendously overpowered spellcasting classes a river because they have to live with either a 35% chance to not affect a drow or taking the Spell Penetration feats to make that chance to resist even slimmer.

Naivatkal wrote:

No it's not. Monk SR couldn't be lowered, and that wasn't even a racial bonus. It was stupid.

There's no spell that lowers SR in DnD anyways, so having Mord's lower SR at all makes little sense. Compensating racial SR in that fashion is the least that we could do.

You keep saying this like it's something we should believe. The Google machine would easily show you a fistful of spells and items that lower SR. And nothing in D&D even suggests racial SR is immune to lowering, if it were, what would be the point of all the spells, items, and class feats that do it?

And monks again have already (repeatedly) had this issue addressed, they're psionicists, ki is not magic. Magic doesn't affect psionics and never has. D&D explicitly states this repeatedly. A spell won't do jack to affect psionic-based abilities. Monk SR is proper, by design, and one thing Bioware actually did by canon rules.

slkNihilus wrote:

Drow is among the worst subraces available on our server. The fact that they now have 39 SR
instead of 29 (since Mords) is what makes them even half-decent. You'll forgive me if I don't cry the horrendously overpowered spellcasting classes a river because they have to live with either a 35% chance to not affect a drow or taking the Spell Penetration feats to make that chance to resist even slimmer.

This... This is a joke, right? C'mon, you're having me on. Where's the hidden camera?

You're complaining that someone literally has to go clear to class level 30 to affect you 1/3 of the time??? They have to literally cripple their character just to affect a race they will only circumstantially meet with their only playstyle. They have to waste their first round just to get a "fair" chance (since saves are still a thing) with Mord's. Those 5 levels they could have spent adding other classes and versatility are solely there for fighting SR. They contribute nothing else meaningful -otherwise-.

And please, tell me how overpowered spellcasters are overpowered when getting saves to a point you really can't be bothered in the endgame isn't that hard. This isn't Ravenloft:PotM here, getting a save to the 35-40 range isn't remotely hard. If anything, casters are the thing I loathe past playing here most, every focus you can get and high casting stat, yet almost everything endgame rolls aroud with 35+ saves. I swear the most trappy feat has to be a tie between epic sf:conjuration, evo, and necro. A wizard is better off being a buff dispenser than trying them Wails.

monks are not psionic. That is 4th edition lore.

I am not sure about the suggested lowering of epic feats by itself though, as it would only help the slim margin of players who actually want to take Hellball, Winterwight, Epic Wild Shape IV anyway.

I say just remove the ECL for drow entirely, the drow are meant to be a warmongering race that is feared and we have had the short end of the stick for like, 10 years anyway. I highly doubt a horde of people are going to make drow PvP builds on such a whim and destabilize the server's balance of power, give the player-base a little credibility.

Some years ago I understand if you would be concerned, but I think the remaining playerbase all wish the server well and are here to rp, and most people have found their spots in the community. I don't think removing the ecl limit would make people suddenly start powerbuilding and pvping and whatnot. So yes, I agree with Drakos.

Why don't you just give drow players the options of mechanically playing elves painted black? Maybe somehow keep light blindness. That way if people want the neat fancy stuff they can take it and if they want pure power.. they can take that too. *Shrugs* Just my two cents.

Bare with me. Likely going to rant.

I think that what should be done, to make Drow more balanced, is to offer gear in the module that is vastly more potent whilst in caverns/UD regions. Sure, probably takes scripting, but drow armor will eventually break on the surface.

I think it would compensate vastly. Drow having 'Drow Only' gear, such as a sword that gets a +6AB. That compensates melee's for the -1AB at the very least. They still get a base of 1 higher AB than humans if the human was 28, also due to the +2DEX, if Weapon Finesse.

For casters; I would suggest a widget in place of the actual desired spell. Hellball, winterwhite etc.

Alternatively. I would recommend;
A, drop the ECL by 1.
B, buff them to the point that the +2 ECL is worth it. Perhaps throw them a few + in key combat/deception/perception skills.
C, remove the CON debuff. Show them as the sturdy traitors they are.

Drow on the surface suck especially. Even less AB.

As I believe Dark Immolation mentioned their circumstantial -2AB.

Personally. I think it sucks that ECL needs to even be implemented on Amia. It's an RP server. If the race, in lore, is supposed to be scary as fuck, then let them be, by all means, scary as fuck. Right now, as it stands. Any surface race that spots a drow can 7/10 times beat their ass to a pulp and laugh about it. Sure, I know it depends on how the fight plays out, but as a base hack and slash between two weapon masters. Drow loses. It shouldn't. Especially in the underdark, or night on the surface.

If drow do get more aggressive and lusting toward PvP through this change, I say, "Good." Because right now, I have seen less drow raids on the surface in the last three years than I can count on one hand, specifically, two, and guess what. Neither times did the drow amount to any kind of success. The vastly more powerful humans steam rolled those poor ink skins, in their attempt to bare their every so scary lore.

Assuming the average caster is 25, and has GSP, the math is:

Formula (base)

Code:

d20 + 25 + 4

Assuming an average of 10:

Code:

10 + 25 + 4 = 39

Not very impressive, really, if you're being deprived of 1 AB, 1 Saves, Several Build Possibilities, Feats, etc. And this is an 'average caster' If you want more realistic numbers, I'd probably add 3 to the end of the equation there, putting the number at 42. It's fair to say, on average, you will not resist the spell. To me, that means you have to use spell mantle. And if you're using spell mantle anyways what's the point in paying 2 ECL for SR?

In PvP, a mage will be hasted, uncatchable, and just cast the same spell at you again, if they fail. And once you're bigby'd your done anyways. The other spells flung at you are likely inconsequential. So while being resistant to spells some of the time is better than nothing, it is not preferable to having a full level build, especially considering you can just get 32 SR on loot as 1 power, or use the spell resistance spell. It's pretty damn near useless, since you can't rely on it. Anyone who's competed in several PvP's understands that not being able to rely on something means you need to find a better way to counter it. On my drow, I just drink spell mantles because it's not worth losing the RNG game, making my SR deprecated.

In PvM, the drow dungeons are beyond awful in scaling compared to the surface and I believe we are working on that, but it's still been this way for over 5 years, and leveling with the ECL just sucks, so any hope of the SR being useful is just overshadowed by the ECL making you too low level to actually resist it anyways. The rest of the math is just as negative.

So, no, it's not really a joke, it's just a matter of perspective. I'm not saying I'm in favor of ECL 30 without any compromise... in fact, I think drow should get an increased penalty whilst in the sunlight. I proposed 5 AB/AC/Saves/Skills before, and I stand by that. I would also consider lowering the base SR you get. Lets also consider that the other bonuses, i.e. the attributes that they get do not have any great synergy no matter what build you're playing. (CHA+INT) = Bard at best, but STR >. So at the end of the day, Wood elf (30) > Drow (28,29, and maybe 30.). Lastly, lets remember that by picking intellect up after character creation because subrace is activated ingame, you actually miss out on extra skill points that having the intellect would've given you, making it further less attractive. Instead of over complicating the matter, by making exceptions for epic spells, and essentially creating frankenstein code (and for what, really?), it might be better to reevaluate things at this level.

I think you could remedy some 'beef' people have, by the divine power of the scripting team.

I saw in the request forum, the custom feat list which is kinda sweet - they have a DC cost which enforces an RP element to gaining the advantage.

An Amia version of this doesn't exist:-

Quote:

Daylight Adaption

You have grown accustomed to living in the surface world, such that bright light no longer blinds or dazzles you.

Prerequisite
Light blindness or light sensitivity

Benefit
Unlike other members of your kind, you are not blinded or dazzled by exposure to bright light or sunlight. However, light spells or effects that affect all creatures, such as a sunbeam or sunburst, still affect you normally.

The ECL argument is a long one. I personally like the idea of using DC's to buy off the ECL level restrictions; as it would mean that Drow player really has to invest time in the character, to reduce it's penalties. If the feat above was implemented, and an ECL buy out introduced it's not like it'd be easy. . .

Example: I live in the UK, I'm pretty much playing every day. I RP consistently in public areas. But my main is not in a faction, and have got maybe 1 DC in... two months? Bad timing with DM's being online not withstanding. I think that being average... it's big enough of an ask of a player to merit this.

Some people have the ability to generate these things like water, I'm aware... Because they're dedicated their faction and strive to be at every event, and every meeting.
My hat off to them; they deserve the rewards. I'm pretty sure I've lost the collective time of years to this game - allowing someone 2 poxy levels for a long time investment in a character; which by enforcing a DC cost means they'd need to actively RP and enrich the environment by proxy - isn't a massive problem. I have no issue with Drow being scary, if they have to invest time into making them that way.

Anyway, at the very least I think the feat's a good suggestion. :lol:

The point about lowering the pre-reqs affecting other non-ECL builds is something I hadn't thought of. If we do make it so that, Hellball, Winterwight, etc can be accessed by all Lv 28 builds, then that would mean all the non-ECL builds could also stop at lv 28 and then go elsewhere with their investments. For Hellball, it's not really that important as it just means 1 extra spellcraft, but for build things like the Epic Wildshape and Winterwight, it means a non-ECL build is getting those pretty capstones on top of being able to dump for 2 levels in something else.

Wouldn't it be better to give Drow a bonus when determining the prerequisites for the abilities we're talking about? For instance, we'd have the script for Create Greater Undead accept either 29 levels of spellcasting+PM OR 27 levels of spellcasting+PM if the caster is Drow/Svir/Etc.

My personal exception was making special exemption specifically for Drow, rather than lowering the pre-reqs, so as to not raise the "flexibility gap".

I'm super skeptical of basically allowing drow (and no one else!) to take level 31. That seems like a pretty dodgy precedent to set.

It would be level 30, not 31 (not sure how the math on that worked out). And speaking of precedents, I'll direct your attention to the genasi subraces.

It seems like a quibbling little difference, I guess, but I think it's important. Reducing a subrace's ECL is in essence declaring "we don't think this subrace's bonuses are worth the equivalent of X character levels; we're adjusting the ECL to a place that makes sense mechanically." It's an argument that comes from a very different place than letting someone buy out of their ECL with DCs: "we maintain that the bonuses of this subrace make it worth +2 character levels, but we're going to let them keep those 2 effective levels and also their 28 class levels and *also* let them buy more levels with DCs."

If there's a change to be made, it should be just flatly reducing the drow ECL by 1. Leaving it at +2 but letting drow characters buy their way out of their ECL is a way worse idea.

(IMHO, of course.)

slkNihilus wrote:

It would be level 30, not 31 (not sure how the math on that worked out). And speaking of precedents, I'll direct your attention to the genasi subraces.

The genasi subraces are a poor comparison to use in favor of easing up on the drow ECL. In particular, the air and earth genasi races are really, really good.

Drow are miles ahead of them.

Racial Traits: Abilities: +2 Dexterity, -2 Constitution, +2 Intelligence, +2 Charisma; Spell Resistance = 11 + Class Level; Feat: Darkvision; Saving Throw Bonus: +2 Will Saves versus Spells and Spell-like Abilities; Spell-like Ability: Darkness; Light Sensitivity.

Compare to Fey'ri (a +1 subrace):

Racial Traits: Abilities: +2 Dexterity, +2 Intelligence, -2 Constitution; Feat: Darkvision; Skills: +2 Bluff, +2 Hide; Spell-like Ability: Clairaudience/Clairvoyance; Resistances: Fire 10; Racial Type changes to Outsider.

Compare to Aasimar (a +1 subrace):

Racial traits: +2 Wisdom, +2 Charisma, +2 Listen, Spot, Bonus Feat: Darkvision, Spell-Like Ability: Light, 5/- Resistance to Cold, Fire, Electricity, Racial Change: Outsider

Compare to Tiefling (a +1 subrace):

Racial traits: +2 Dexterity, +2 Intelligence, -2 Charisma, +2 Bluff, Hide, Bonus Feat: Darkvision, Spell-Like Ability: Darkness, 5/- Resistance to Acid, Fire, Electricity, Racial Change: Outsider

Argue all you want about how the drow don't have enough bonuses to warrant +2 ECL, but I'm looking at a lot of stuff that's better than +1 ECL races without the major drawback of being an Outsider.

+2 ECL is well warranted. Tormak's proposed changes to accomodate drow are probably all they need. Maybe somehow make their experience gain a little easier, too. I remember they gained xp a lot slower.

Charisma is without a doubt the least useful stat in NWN, comes at a heavy hit to Con and doesn't even pair well with either Int or Dex, even as your main stat it adds little else bonus wise to anything of mechanical value, and the RP value is questionable, especially with the job system and everything else that adds non mechanical RP value.

Further all of the "Universal" races gain the benefit of being able to be used on humans at first level, the Drow stats are Basically the same worth as a +2 Dex +2 int race (with a bit off for the con v cha and a bit added for the SR).

And no doubt that Dex and Int are a good pair of bonuses and the SR has value, but if you weight it against Aasimar, Earth Genasi or Orgrillion they provide a better combination even when dropping drow down an ECL, with several others providing roughly equally powerful build options and often times more or better options.

Drow as an ECL +1 Would be a strong race but not curve breaking by any means, and with the light negatives (especially if they were boosted slightly, which I encourage personally) it balances out a good portion of the time. It would also provide a nice and rather Lore accurate aspect to Drow Mechanics and RP by doing so.

Additionally you benefit in that a reduction of the ECL by one and an upping of the negatives of from light could both be added in easily without needing rebuilds and without the having to do much scripting.

[Old Discussion] Drow ECL

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