AMIA ARCHIVE • View topic

Proposal that follows the guideline of meeting the least resistance:

> Change Umberhulk from Polymorph-Self to having high spot / higher listen bonus on top of existing skill investment in those skills.
> Change Red Dragon from the Shapechange spell to having higher spot / lower listen bonus on top of existing skill investment in those skills.

>> Lorewise this makes sense because the ability to use these traits cheaply is something not easily accomplished by someone not remotely close to the type of the creature, but it doesn't make it completely useless either.

> Familiar and shifter forms untouched for now, until a better solution is wrought universally.

In the past, bioware TS was slated to be removed, and the only obstacle was whether true dragons should be able to retain their lore given-godmode. But this was never done, however, I think a smaller, less disputable fix can be done now.

The goal here is to make people spend a little effort to counter people's hide and move silently scores, and bolster listen and spot's utility if only by a little.

Seeing as HIPS has now been brought back from being the near unstoppable spam ability it use to be this would be a nice little boon for dancers.

Yes pls. Anything to balance the playing field between a Dancers' multi level /INVESTMENT/ vs. another toon's miniscule expenditure on a 'winbutton' scroll.

Bioware TS needs to die a horrible death. :/

Analog Kid wrote:

Yes pls. Anything to balance the playing field between a Dancers' multi level /INVESTMENT/ vs. another toon's miniscule expenditure on a 'winbutton' scroll.

Bioware TS needs to die a horrible death. :/

Cheap and easy Bioware TS is just wrong. I have to agree with you there and support this idea. It doesn't just impact SD's either and cheapens the efforts of Spot builds besides.

However, Dragonshape is neither cheap nor easy and if anyone thinks coming after that next is a good idea I'm going to be first in a long line of players to kick that bad idea back down the memory hole where it belongs, trowel ten yards of concrete over it and pile a warehouse full of anvils on top.

They aren't referring to a druid / shifter dragonshape, but the Shapechange (9th circle spell) Dragon Shape.

Yes, I'm aware of that. I'm really referring to this comment and previous threads where removal of this ability was discussed up to and including suggestions of outright removal from all forms if memory serves.

Faded Wings wrote:

In the past, bioware TS was slated to be removed, and the only obstacle was whether true dragons should be able to retain their lore given-godmode. But this was never done, however, I think a smaller, less disputable fix can be done now.

It started off like that, as far as I remember, but that is not how it's probably going to end up. Noone's going after those I don't think.

What is the obstacle for removing bioware ts from shifters?

I love that this conversation has come back around... I thought about resurrecting it the moment I saw the IA forum was back open, but someone had already posted the drow ECL thread and I figured, let's maybe just beat one long-dead horse at a time.

Yes yes yes yes, Bioware TS is an abomination unto the gods, and should be banished forthwith. Umberhulk shape from polymorph wands and scrolls is definitely the worst offender, but don't stop short and leave it available to lowbie shifters and wyrmling familiars. It needs to be axed from all items, familiars, and shapes available to lowbies.

Shifter wyrmling forms really should lose it as well. I can understand the defense for keeping it on the Dragonshape forms considering the time/feat investment to get them and the fact that compared to the other epic forms Dragonshape isn't really stellar.

Liz wrote:

Yes yes yes yes, Bioware TS is an abomination unto the gods, and should be banished forthwith. Umberhulk shape from polymorph wands and scrolls is definitely the worst offender, but don't stop short and leave it available to lowbie shifters and wyrmling familiars. It needs to be axed from all items, familiars, and shapes available to lowbies.

All of my yes, I'd prefer it if my SD with 107 Hide couldn't be spotted by someone with 5 UMD, 1 Wizard/Sorcerer level or 1 shifter level.

>.>

2006 called, it wants its argument back.... This is a nobrainer and has been for almost a decade. (If my opinion was different - read: "wrong" back then, do me a favor and don't remind me publically.

)

remove HIPS and i'd be all for removing TS, but since HIPS is still in [and still (see always) broken] i wouldn't break off the one way players have to properly interact with it. And to say it's an "Iwin" is incredibly silly. you're spotted, not dead. Any stealther worth their salt went dex with ED. polymorphed chars aren't going to hit them, period. So you break your stealth immediately when someone goes into a TS shape, and then just run from them for a little, or smack them until they realize they can't beat you in a straight fight. Then you HIPS again when they unshift.

Buuuut I digress, because that's looking at amia as if it were an mmo. I feel like NWN never properly implemented stealth mechanics given that you can be in a 5x5 room, with no furniture and someone can be hiding, on your nose, solely because they have >20 points of hide/ms above your spotting abilities.

So if we're going to say TS was implemented poorly, I'd like to provide that the hide mechanics were just as poorly implemented, and so they more or less cancel each other out.

OpenTheRift wrote:

remove HIPS and i'd be all for removing TS, but since HIPS is still in [and still (see always) broken] i wouldn't break off the one way players have to properly interact with it. And to say it's an "Iwin" is incredibly silly. you're spotted, not dead. Any stealther worth their salt went dex with ED. polymorphed chars aren't going to hit them, period. So you break your stealth immediately when someone goes into a TS shape, and then just run from them for a little, or smack them until they realize they can't beat you in a straight fight. Then you HIPS again when they unshift.

Buuuut I digress, because that's looking at amia as if it were an mmo. I feel like NWN never properly implemented stealth mechanics given that you can be in a 5x5 room, with no furniture and someone can be hiding, on your nose, solely because they have >20 points of hide/ms above your spotting abilities.

So if we're going to say TS was implemented poorly, I'd like to provide that the hide mechanics were just as poorly implemented, and so they more or less cancel each other out.

The discussion was for the Bioware TS functions. E.g it spots anything in range regardless of skill. NPC guards have it, shifter and other shapes have it but the spell True Seeing does not have it. What we are talking about is making it uniform.

Silkelock wrote:

OpenTheRift wrote:

remove HIPS and i'd be all for removing TS, but since HIPS is still in [and still (see always) broken] i wouldn't break off the one way players have to properly interact with it. And to say it's an "Iwin" is incredibly silly. you're spotted, not dead. Any stealther worth their salt went dex with ED. polymorphed chars aren't going to hit them, period. So you break your stealth immediately when someone goes into a TS shape, and then just run from them for a little, or smack them until they realize they can't beat you in a straight fight. Then you HIPS again when they unshift.

Buuuut I digress, because that's looking at amia as if it were an mmo. I feel like NWN never properly implemented stealth mechanics given that you can be in a 5x5 room, with no furniture and someone can be hiding, on your nose, solely because they have >20 points of hide/ms above your spotting abilities.

So if we're going to say TS was implemented poorly, I'd like to provide that the hide mechanics were just as poorly implemented, and so they more or less cancel each other out.

The discussion was for the Bioware TS functions. E.g it spots anything in range regardless of skill. NPC guards have it, shifter and other shapes have it but the spell True Seeing does not have it. What we are talking about is making it uniform.

That's....what OTR is talking about?

I'm kind of on the fence. The only thing Bioware TS negatively affects is the people who sneak follow others into super secret meetings. But because the game can't take into account other measures I can take to make a room sneak-proof (such as squeezing my way into a door and pulling it shut to make sure nobody can follow, tossing dust about to see if it lands on someone I can't see, etc), you're forcing characters into having to actually spot them.

On the other hand, it's really silly to see someone HiPS and twelve people turn into giant bugs. Anything to get rid of that is okay in my book. Make all six of those people use Shapechange to become dragons in that tiny little house instead. Yes, yes...I know it's being lobbied to have TS removed from Shapechange, but I'd counter with taking it a different route. Leave it on the spells but remove the scrolls from shops (hurry, everyone- buy up a page of Shapechange scroll stacks while you can). That limits its use to only those who can have a mage make them.

oh, thanks silke. for a bit i forgot how to read there, thanks i mean my post clearly was just so far out of left field, i didnt even mention the mechanical aspects of what is being discussed.

quit baiting me.

OpenTheRift wrote:

Buuuut I digress, because that's looking at amia as if it were an mmo. I feel like NWN never properly implemented stealth mechanics given that you can be in a 5x5 room, with no furniture and someone can be hiding, on your nose, solely because they have >20 points of hide/ms above your spotting abilities.

This. It's worse than Skyrim's "I crouch and you can't see me anymore hohohohoho".

Isn't all stealth in NWN basically magical immersion into shadows via shadow sphere? Even for non SD stealth characters I understood that hide is just partially physical and otherwise it is about (maybe unconscious) tapping into magic of shadow weave and using it to basically make "illusion of not being there".

On the shifter thing, I would like to say that it's not "just one level of shifter", since it's an investment that requires two of your three class slots, six levels and one feat. Cheap enough if you're already a druid (although it still robs you of potential skilldumps or bonus feats), but other than that, most people who take the first shifter level are going to take a lot more shifter levels.

Although I guess I wouldn't be too upset to see TS removed from the first level wyrmlings, so long as the epic versions get to keep it.

Stealth has nothing to do with the Shadow Weave, nor do Shadowdancers or does HIPS inherently have anything to do with it, just to make that super clear! The Plane of Shadow, and the Shadow Weave, are different things. And yes, Stealth is effectively treated like HIPS in NWN when compared to PnP because you don't need to remain in cover to remain hidden, in NWN, like you would normally have to, in PnP.

Some of this is getting a bit off track, however.

A great deal of these discussions have been had before, and I recommend that before they continue along this vein, people read what has been posted before. There were some very good explanations and arguments that still have merit, and I think many of you will find either an answer to a concern, or that your own have already been voiced.

Considering that Spot (and Listen) can still beat Hide and Move Silently, I don't personally see the cause from alarm. All the proposed changes are really doing it taking away the instant reveal and making it a check. It's making it relative to level, relative to investment. It's empowering people who actually bother to take perception in their builds or their gear, as well as the stealthers, and taking away the easy win of people who happen to have UMD and a couple scrolls (Polymorph, Shapechange) - but still allows them the chance to boost their skills and maybe detect a stealther even still. That's really the core of it, IMO.

DerkDerkistan wrote:

Leave it on the spells but remove the scrolls from shops (hurry, everyone- buy up a page of Shapechange scroll stacks while you can). That limits its use to only those who can have a mage make them.

Larsaan wrote:

Although I guess I wouldn't be too upset to see TS removed from the first level wyrmlings, so long as the epic versions get to keep it.

Voicing my agreement for these ideas. I was considering making a similar post but these two illustrate my only concerns with chunking bioware TS out the window. Besides, it can always be removed later if it turns out the scrolls are still too accessible via mages which I don't foresee being a big problem 'cos you shouldn't be turning into a dragon in a house in the first place. I think the level investment for mages and shifters to reach those levels is similar enough to building a hider, having made all three types of characters myself. That's only my opinion, though.
(That's excluding the lore reasons I feel wouldn't make sense for it to disappear from high level mages/shifters.

Umberhulk should have tremor sense. Too often do I see people using it for 'spotting' even in situation where an umber hulk may have difficulty picking up who's standing where. It's used as an instant win and I wouldn't be opposed to seeing it either removed or limited. Skill investment in spot still trumps skill investment in Hide.

I'd like to see role play encouraged more and not see some one running down a road as an umber hulk 30 times a day. It gives sneaks more of a chance to play their role.

Locked and moved to archive for storage.

Unlocked, and move back, because this discussion was not done.

DerkDerkistan wrote:

The only thing Bioware TS negatively affects is the people who sneak follow others into super secret meetings.

That's the main thing Bioware TS affects negatively, but definitely not the only thing. It also massively devalues Spot and Listen (as Maglorine mentioned briefly above). Detection skills high enough to suss out skilled sneaks should be super valuable, but they're not. A super-spotter isn't much more than an interesting curiosity, because anyone with a few hundred gp can be nearly as good at detecting as a character with multiple feats, multiple mythal slots, and 33 skill points invested in Spot. That's just flat wrong. It's contrary to the fundamental principles of game balance.

Give the creatures true seeing for the first round or two of shifting, then give a bonus to listen, in the case of umberhulks.

Liz wrote:

DerkDerkistan wrote:

The only thing Bioware TS negatively affects is the people who sneak follow others into super secret meetings.

That's the main thing Bioware TS affects negatively, but definitely not the only thing. It also massively devalues Spot and Listen (as Maglorine mentioned briefly above). Detection skills high enough to suss out skilled sneaks should be super valuable, but they're not. A super-spotter isn't much more than an interesting curiosity, because anyone with a few hundred gp can be nearly as good at detecting as a character with multiple feats, multiple mythal slots, and 33 skill points invested in Spot. That's just flat wrong. It's contrary to the fundamental principles of game balance.

That's not entirely true. As a former sneak player, I've found myself far less concerned about people savvy enough to use scrolls, vs spotters. Outdoors, where a significant portion of Important Conversations occur, people fire and forget their umberhulks - so we just have to stumble on them, or wait at a distance for the scroll to go off. Spotters are running the whole time. People need to be able to have their secure conversations, or else you risk people moving them into uninterceptible zones (skype, PMs).

I've said it before, but removing Bioware TS will actually make it harder for spies because the system is an inherently broken pass/fail with almost no variability, regardless of whether you're running spot or scrolls. My suggestion for balance is make it so that bioware TS doesn't kick in on umberhulk for about 10 rounds. This represents thoroughly searching say a closed in area, because as it's said before stealthing is so ridiculous that you can hide under the noses of two people with no cover. There should at least be an option for people who just carefully canvas, rather than having an adept passive alertness. Unless you're saying only trained people know how to look up at the ceiling, under furniture, around corners.

I don't think it devalues Spot/Listen at all. A Spotter/Hearer is always going to be more preferred for reasons serbiris gave and also the fact that an Umberhulked PC is going to hit like a wet noodle. A Spotter will have their full skillset available. But then, I'm all for removing TS from Umberhulk anyway.

Umberhulk having TS is the biggest issue, it requires virtually no commitment, isn't even a lore accurate representation and most importantly it FAR too often creates situations in which Stealthy characters just have RP shut down which is a far worse issue than most Combat issues I've ever seen TS cause.

Actual TS on high level shifter forms and things like dragons I see far less of an issue with (so long as it is also lore accurate) as the level of commitment in order to achieve those results is far more suitable compared to level of commitment for a Stealth character. In in the case of Dragons there is at least the issue of size, which severely limits its usage in many situations.

Two edged issue, as Serbiris explained in his post.

I think the most beneficial solution would be, as previously mentioned, to grant the TS after some time after shapeshifting. Until then boost only (to spot / listen).

The biggest problem, at least for me, is that right now it is very easy to basically detect any sneaker, no matter how high hide / MS skills they have, by a cheap-ass wand, random find book or a scroll. Which brings a lot of disbalance.

Actually, it is not exactly the best way how to handle it IC.

Example:

I was in Bendirs, standing next to the wall. Unnamed characters were standing next to me, talking silently about something. Then, one of them said: "A moment, I'll check something" And turned into the giant bug!

I wasn't sure how to handle it IG, because ... Damn, how did this pretty lady turned into the bug, just to check if there is no stealthed character?

Just no, Bioware TS is wrong, not because of mechanical way, but also because of the IG feeling. It is not funny, to see a band of umberhulks running around the Bendirs/house/etc. just because they are not sure, if there is not one another person... Blah...

Can we please replace True Seeing on the Umber Hulk polymorph hide with a modest Listen bonus for starters? This topic has recurred several times over the years and it has always ended up in an endless debate without any tangible effect on our world. Stealth is all but pointless in espionage role play when 5 UMD and a small pouch of gold is all it takes to detect you, no matter how skilled you are. I would like to think that no further argument is needed. I'm not addressing any other facets of this topic at present. We need to move ahead one step at a time.

I think almost nobody believes that this change will ever happen after all these years. Please prove us wrong.

Umberhulks with no TS, yes please.

Ulir wrote:

Umberhulks with no TS, yes please.

That's a start. Also, from the top of my head, the pseudodragon as a companion is quite a pain as well - because it means a level 1 mage / sorc with companion see epic sneak with no effort.

I bet we could make it so you can't select the pseudo at level 1 wiz/sorc. Make someone have to invest several mage levels (like more than 10, I don't think there's any builds that would only take 10 wiz/sorc) in order to get it. Wouldn't be terrible.

I haven't really thought this through much, but what do people think of the idea of leaving the wyrmling familiar (I assume that's what you guys are referring to; I think the pseudo is TS-less?) exactly as it is, but disabling on Amia the ability to directly possess familiars?

It would address the issue of the "dragon" still having super-senses like it's supposed to lore-wise, and the issue of its TS being available to PCs for almost no investment. And there's no precedent in PnP for mages being able to see through their familiar's eyes; that's wholly a Bioware fabrication.

Just a random thought, please be welcome to brutalize it mercilessly.

Not worth the loss of RP, imho.

How would it detract from RP?

A familiar basically can be used as a supplemental supporting character, and taking the ability to possess it kiiiiiiinda hoses that up. Sure there's the chat commands, but that's kinda.. Why remove the option for all other types of familiars because one is borked? Too complicated, and essentially has the effect of using a hatchet to perform open heart surgery. Just remove Bioware TS from pseudodragons. Simple.

Besides, I love my character foil psudodragon~ :mrgreen:

EDIT: Awkward typo . _ .

Yeah, it's not exactly a pinpoint-targeted solution, I acknowledge. I've never really had much experience with using the chat commands to control familiars; do they not work especially well or something?

The chat commands only let you emote/speak as a familiar. You can't control them (unless we added something). The emote wand can be used to make them move to specific locations (ie yourself or the point you clicked) but that's not the same as possessing them and having them scout or attack or anything. Makes me really wish Bioware let you control companions D:

Naivatkal wrote:

. Makes me really wish Bioware let you control companions D:

Me too.

Last edited by Analog Kid on Wed, Nov 25 2015, 5:43 AM, edited 1 time in total.

The whole Familiar thing..... Bleh. Almost as bad as the instant win umber hulk issue. The possessing Familiar and the companion thing is a new can of worms. In short, it's cumbersome at best. Regardless....

Sphinx sums it up:

Sphinx wrote:

Can we please replace True Seeing on the Umber Hulk polymorph hide with a modest Listen bonus for starters? This topic has recurred several times over the years and it has always ended up in an endless debate without any tangible effect on our world. Stealth is all but pointless in espionage role play when 5 UMD and a small pouch of gold is all it takes to detect you, no matter how skilled you are. I would like to think that no further argument is needed. I'm not addressing any other facets of this topic at present. We need to move ahead one step at a time.

I think almost nobody believes that this change will ever happen after all these years. Please prove us wrong.

I say strip bioware TS. Period. It's been said time and time again that it's /broken/.

BROKEN.... sheesh.

Edited to waylay any further confusion. Though I don't see why this thread, and topic in general need be beaten to death any further. The point has been made /long/ ago.

Analog Kid wrote:

The whole Familiar thing..... Bleh. Almost as bad as the instant win umber hulk issue. The possessing Familiar and the companion thing is a new can of worms. In short, it's cumbersome at best. Regardless....

Sphinx sums it up. Strip bioware TS. Period. It's been said time and time again that it's /broken/.

BROKEN.... sheesh.

That's not exactly what he said. He said remove it from Umberhulks. You're implying that he said completely.

Shapechange should keep Bioware TS but the scrolls should be craftable-only. Epic wyrmling shape and Dragonshape should keep TS. Pseudodragons should die in a fire and lose TS while they're at it. Umberhulks never deserved TS in the first place. Rakshasa shape should also keep TS.

my post is edited to reflect what I meant then...... >.>

The horse is dead people....

Liz wrote:

I haven't really thought this through much, but what do people think of the idea of leaving the wyrmling familiar (I assume that's what you guys are referring to; I think the pseudo is TS-less?) exactly as it is, but disabling on Amia the ability to directly possess familiars?

It would address the issue of the "dragon" still having super-senses like it's supposed to lore-wise, and the issue of its TS being available to PCs for almost no investment. And there's no precedent in PnP for mages being able to see through their familiar's eyes; that's wholly a Bioware fabrication.

Just a random thought, please be welcome to brutalize it mercilessly.

Actually, Pseudodragon is -not- a true dragon. Even when this matter was discussed many time around the internet, regarding the fact of needed feat, for using him as companion without being wiz/sorc, etc... The fact is, that Pseudodragon should not have TS, but Blindsense - Which is the ability that they really poses - Lorewise...

Wasn't this already changed? I seem to remember it was going to be implemented like years ago, after several long discussions just like this.

DerkDerkistan wrote:

Shapechange should keep Bioware TS but the scrolls should be craftable-only.

Actually, to be more lore-savvy, cast Shapechage from a scroll but remove the Red Dragon option (you need a higher CL than the scroll is to select that as a mage in PnP) OR just remove teh TS because spell-polymorph is not like shifting; you don't get all the bonuses of a shape. Remember the scrolls are nice for other shapes as well (most people don't use them for Dragon, from what I've seen over the years).

Naivatkal wrote:

DerkDerkistan wrote:

Shapechange should keep Bioware TS but the scrolls should be craftable-only.

Actually, to be more lore-savvy, cast Shapechage from a scroll but remove the Red Dragon option (you need a higher CL than the scroll is to select that as a mage in PnP) OR just remove teh TS because spell-polymorph is not like shifting; you don't get all the bonuses of a shape. Remember the scrolls are nice for other shapes as well (most people don't use them for Dragon, from what I've seen over the years).

Pretty sure that wouldn't work considering the dozens of requests people have done for altered dragon type on Shapechange scrolls. I know two very active mages offhand that use shapechange widgets to get a Gold/Bronze/etc dragon for RP. That would be a refund nightmare for the DM team.

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