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As many of you already said, freedom terribly reduces options for many classes (Paralysis from casters, assassins etc.).
I was thinking about Baldur's Gate II recently and there is a certain "Ring of free action" which gives you freedom of movement, but also you can't get any positive effect affecting your movement (haste)
I guess 100% people of the server have either belt with freedom or cloak with freedom, so it would be interesting to give this "double-edged sword" while using such items.

Feel free to throw rocks on me.

You're no longer enjoying being alive, eh? Get ready to be flayed alive. And then eaten.

But worry not, I'll not take a bite. Because I love this idea. I love it so much that I'm actually suprised it came from you (easy, moderator guys, me and Bertnard are actually in love... we know each other).

Yes to this. Freedom as it is is horrible to many classes. This would make players to consider if wearing it or not.

Do any classes or races get it as free feat at some point?

I think the master scout does, on 5th lvl.

Quote:

Level 5: Flawless Stride: Master Scout gains permanent Freedom.

I hate you! *starts piling rocks*

Seriously though, interesting idea but perhaps a little harsh for those builds which gain it for free and have no option about not taking it. Its similar to the old true sight on items, perhaps better rolls to avoid or negate, lessen the chance rather than a handicap?

This topic has been kicked around in the dev chats for a while. I think one suggestion was to remove the permanent freedom bonus on items and replace it with 1x/day freedom spells.

msheeler wrote:

This topic has been kicked around in the dev chats for a while. I think one suggestion was to remove the permanent freedom bonus on items and replace it with 1x/day freedom spells.

Coo! And what are the chances that this may actually be implemented?

Sure, I'll be the contrary one again, why not?

Freedom is fine as is. I think caster builds are the last ones that need a power boost, and they're the ones that would overwhelmingly benefit from nerfing Freedom. (Both because it would be casters who would best be able to exploit everyone's new vulnerability to paralysis, and because it would be casters who's be best able to call on long duration of un-nerfed Freedom, from the Freed om of Movement spell.)

I don't really have a lot of sympathy that Freedom is too powerful, but I suppose I can muster some sympathy for the argument that it's too common. Maybe strip it from items available in shops, and the lower-level lootbins?

I agree with Liz, I think. I get the idea behind removing it, but it would be an incredible buff to mages.

However, if it was to be removed, I think I'd suggest that you alter the Freedom of Movement spell to land on armor like GMW and that cleric AC buff that I can't think of off the top of my head. That way it can't be instantly dispelled, but it is a finite buff.

Freedom is not just about casters. That's the first thing you have to realize. There are other classes being widely affected (in a negative way) by the permanent freedom on items.

For example assassins (And hand to the heart, assassins are already being held "face to the mud" as it is). Pale Masters. Monks. And that's just from the top of my head.

Why there can be potions of mind blank, but no mind immunity items? Why there are potions of negative / stats reduction immunity, but no negative immunity items? Need I go on?

Sorry, but freedom is not fine as it is. And I find it absolutely proposterous it's on items available from level 8, given it grants immunity to wide aspects of game effects, be it spells, abilities and such. On a server where there is only a very handful items with total immunity, and even these are in epic tier bin, I find freedom greatly OP.

Assassins and PMs were both already duly compensated with work-arounds.

Honestly, the most difficult argument re: Freedom isn't simply changing the items - it's what to do with players who have paid for Freedom on their DC items, and how to fairly compensate such a change.

What Tormak said is one issue. The other issue is that it has been taken into account that freedom is available as it is when many dungeons were made. Same with mindblank and bubbly potions and other stuff. That is why changing such long existant things the server basically always had and was built on having can cause deep issues in the long run.

Edit:
And has also been taken into account when approving custom spells/feats etc. in the past.

I have to agree with Guardian and Bertnard about this...

Freedom is quite overpowered right now as it is. Look at the items.

Right now, I have a dwarf with Freedom Cloak. I got it from what level... 8? And from that moment, I had no problems with spiders in Forest, Spiders in Desert. It was PvE.

Now PvP - I can counter - paralysis from Assassins death attack and from technique. Sorry, that's quite a main attack from assassin, right?
Spellcasters? HAH - Web, Grease, Paralysis spell, Hold person. Bigby will hold me on place but not stun me (yes, still I can attack!)

I almost forgot, you can have -haste- with that. That means +4 AC and +1 attack per round (or spell)

Show me any -other- item which can make such a boost.

This isn't about -removing- freedom, but changing it, so that you can't be hasted during its effect.

That means, you'll still be immune to paralysis, etc. But you can't run like a crazy rabbit around the map.

Ohh, you want to be hasted? Change you belt/cloak/boots/etc.

There is no boost for spellcasters, because you still can wear your freedom, if you want. But you can't be hasted. Item should -not- have Freedom as it is now. That's only a matter of spellcasters at best.

I like this!

serbiris wrote:

Assassins and PMs were both already duly compensated with work-arounds.

Please explain.

I have no idea about PM, but monk techniques does not work (Target is immune to paralysis), and the same apply to assassin techniques. I have field-tested it few days ago - so yes, I am absolutely positive they cannot bypass freedom atm.

TormakSaber wrote:

Honestly, the most difficult argument re: Freedom isn't simply changing the items - it's what to do with players who have paid for Freedom on their DC items, and how to fairly compensate such a change.

That's a valid issue - but this alone should not affect the whole server settings. A player with freedom requested on DC item can always post a request to modify / adjust the item if freedom modification is applied, no? And frankly, how many people have freedom on DC item now, when freedom as it is right now is basically everywhere.

You'd be surprised (I think) how many people have requested freedom items over the years, despite the property's relative common...al...ity. Custom item requests will do that. you're right, it shouldn't affect whole server settings, but for my part, while I am firmly for balancing the server, I also have to ook at those requests and wonder: Do we alter the items? Do we refund DCs? If so, how much? What if the player simply doesn't want the item anymore? Do we charge the item again if they request a modification to the item in liue of Freedom? what if it's weaker/stronger? Multiply all that by every DC item with Freedom.

Re: Assassin, I believe Serberis might be talking about the various tools the Assassins get, like Knockdown, Death, Stun, etc etc.

Not sure re: PMs. Last I knew, the arm doesn't bypass Freedom.

This said: I think banning Haste from Freedom doesn't make much sense in the scope of the spell., RPly. It removes impediments to your movement, why would it cessate enhancements?

The haste/freedom thing was just an example, I think. The point was to give a counter to the permanent freedom - as it is now, there is none.

As I said, it's not something to be solved in one topic, it's more of an idea to think about. As it is now, Freedom is the only thing that gives a permanent immunity against something on the server, so I wonder why Freedom. Why not mind immunity or critical immunity? Both give "less" immunities combined than Freedom.

Freedom affects all spellcasters, vast number of PrCs, traps (turns movement affecting traps to void) and multiple abilities. The idea to turn off permament Freedom and make it Freedom of Movement *xday seems really solid. No one said it must be 1x day, tier 3 belts of agility may have it x3 per day.

As for the DC requests, well... *IF* the Freedom would change to the scenario above, then offer the free modification to *x uses per day instead of permament freedom to all with DC item. It would be fair this way to all. If they would refuse, offer a compensation equal to the power of Freedom slot.

A possible suggestion to DC items with freedom might be to change them from permanent freedom to unlimited freedom spells? At least there is some effort to actually cast it then.

However.... taking away perma-freedom from other items and giving it to those DC requested items makes them all that much more powerful. What I mean is: If there is no perma-freedom on the server anymore, not on any items, and someone requested an item with it, would it still be approved? Even for unlimited uses of it? Also, if as it has been said, dungeons are already balanced for this... aren't we opening a huge can of worms with this? So many other things that could be fixed, Freedom would be last on my list to change.

msheeler wrote:

This topic has been kicked around in the dev chats for a while. I think one suggestion was to remove the permanent freedom bonus on items and replace it with 1x/day freedom spells.

Yeah and as a shifter the last thing I want is more item based spell things we cant use to throw on the list.

msheeler wrote:

This topic has been kicked around in the dev chats for a while. I think one suggestion was to remove the permanent freedom bonus on items and replace it with 1x/day freedom spells.

msheeler wrote:

A possible suggestion to DC items with freedom might be to change them from permanent freedom to unlimited freedom spells? At least there is some effort to actually cast it then.

Yeah and as a shifter the last thing I want is more item based spell things we cant use to throw on the list.[/quote]

On a similar note, can we have NEP potions not nullify crippling strike stat loss?

Basically because casters are utterly devastating in their utilities, it means any other non-caster with niche abilities (Crippling strike, death attack, assassin abilities, monk abilities to name a few) are seriously nerfed as long as: 1. The protection against these are cheap and disposable and 2. the effects they're protecting from are thrown on to every endgame mob.

Kamina wrote:

On a similar note, can we have NEP potions not nullify crippling strike stat loss?

Basically because casters are utterly devastating in their utilities, it means any other non-caster with niche abilities (Crippling strike, death attack, assassin abilities, monk abilities to name a few) are seriously nerfed as long as: 1. The protection against these are cheap and disposable and 2. the effects they're protecting from are thrown on to every endgame mob.

Yes. Yes, please.

corypx wrote:

Yeah and as a shifter the last thing I want is more item based spell things we cant use to throw on the list.

I'd hate this to turn into flames, so I avoid comments on shifter builds / class.

Ti'avel wrote:

Also, if as it has been said, dungeons are already balanced for this... aren't we opening a huge can of worms with this? So many other things that could be fixed, Freedom would be last on my list to change.

If this was true, which it is not, then explain to me a reason why even high tier mobs and dungeons are using / having:

1, Tangle traps
2, Paralysis acid blop traps (the acid damage is meh, so don't argue with that, please)
3, Mobs casters with spells like hold person, slow etc...
4, Mobs with death attack
5, Paralysis auras and attacks by some epic tier bosses

... and so on.

I am quite sure that the Freedom adjustment would be last on a list of many people. It's easier to live with perma-effect than think twice before going somewhere or make the world a bit more challanging.

Amarice-Elaraliel wrote:

What Tormak said is one issue. The other issue is that it has been taken into account that freedom is available as it is when many dungeons were made. Same with mindblank and bubbly potions and other stuff. That is why changing such long existant things the server basically always had and was built on having can cause deep issues in the long run.

Edit:
And has also been taken into account when approving custom spells/feats etc. in the past.

If it's not broke, dun break it, imo. There's zero need for this change.

All this does is give casters an instant win that lasts -forever- as if mages need another one of those. Of any playstyle, casters most certainly do -not- need more advantage.

As for assassins, having played them to 30, I can confidently say they do not need it. Assassins, single-handedly have been perked enough on this server to have gone from "why would you ever make one of those" to "why would you ever make a rogue, use assassin!" Losing paralysis on some targets is a negligible loss for outright killing all targets (no immunity) with either Murder or Kneecapper (which is basically death by damage at that sneak dice). Giving assassins this boon turns them from a borderline overpowered class to a most certainly overpowered class.

I do not really see that it gives mages more powerful. Removing freedom would open more options, Hold Monster, and such.

The exception to this would be with the Bigby spells and their effect if you don't have freedom. I would be all for removing freedom on the grounds that the Bigby spell did not have the paralysis effect weaved into the same 'save' as the grasping effect. Getting into a new topic here, but i feel the two walk.. hand 'n hand. So if the Paralysis was a fort save, but the grab itself was perm norm, it would have much the same effect now, but it opens the door for Web, Hold Monster, Stone Hold, Death Attack and so on.

Not super related to the topic, just various thoughts that can be ignored to keep the topic on track. But i lack the self control not to share.

• show

Freedom doesn't save you from Grease anyway...it doesn't slow you down but it knocks you down

Lutra wrote:

Freedom doesn't save you from Grease anyway...it doesn't slow you down but it knocks you down

Yes, but the spell would be a lot more useful if the slow actually worked.

MightNMagic wrote:

All this does is give casters an instant win that lasts -forever- as if mages need another one of those. Of any playstyle, casters most certainly do -not- need more advantage.

I cannot agree with this this. You can say the exactly same thing about mind immunity. If a mage catch you without it and blast you with, for example, fear - you panic forever. Yet there is no item with mind immunity in the module. Or, to avoid use spellcasters as an example, take fear aura. Or terrifying rage.

MightNMagic wrote:

As for assassins, having played them to 30, I can confidently say they do not need it. Assassins, single-handedly have been perked enough on this server to have gone from "why would you ever make one of those" to "why would you ever make a rogue, use assassin!" Losing paralysis on some targets is a negligible loss for outright killing all targets (no immunity) with either Murder or Kneecapper (which is basically death by damage at that sneak dice). Giving assassins this boon turns them from a borderline overpowered class to a most certainly overpowered class.

First of all, you should pick a class according to the RP origin of your character, not because it's powerful. At least I hope it's still the rule number one.

Second, just because Murder and Kneecapper are indeed a pain for everyone who ever pissed of an assassin does not mean the other abilities should be useless. Not every character have maxed assassin, some does not reach the final two techniques. The possible solution could be that the assassin techniques would bypass Freedom, same as Murder bypass Death immunity - but I am not sure how the staff would react to this idea.

Do note that I am not proposing the elimination of Freedom of Movement. I am proposing the elimination of it's permanent effect on items. Same as you have to buff with mind immunity, neg. immunity and so so, you'd have to think about the freedom of movement as well.

Hand to the heart, how many of you ever used Boots of Free Passage? How many of you ever used Potion of Freedom of Movement? I have not seen the "spell animation" for freedom of movement... never. If the animation would not be the same as when you receive a DC I'd have a hard time to even remember how does it look like.

And from the opposite side, when have you ever used spells like Slow, Fear, Evard's Tentacles, Hold person?

Guardian wrote:

Hand to the heart, how many of you ever used Boots of Free Passage? How many of you ever used Potion of Freedom of Movement? I have not seen the "spell animation" for freedom of movement... never. If the animation would not be the same as when you receive a DC I'd have a hard time to even remember how does it look like.

And from the opposite side, when have you ever used spells like Slow, Fear, Evard's Tentacles, Hold person?

I think I only have one character with a Freedom item. Evard's is great. Slow is great. People use Fear a lot.

DerkDerkistan wrote:

I think I only have one character with a Freedom item. Evard's is great. Slow is great. People use Fear a lot.

I hope we are both thinking PvP, not PvE. Because I have not seen once of these used in PvP ever.

Of course it's great in PvE.

PvP is the reason why Freedom on items is practically a necessity.

DerkDerkistan wrote:

PvP is the reason why Freedom on items is practically a necessity.

Thank you. I've just won a bet. :mrgreen:

That's an argument for leaving it the way it is, you know.

When we start balancing for PvP, we lose sight of the fact this is a Roleplay server. Every arguement "for" removing Freedom from items I've seen here has been based on PvP, which, as has been said many times, we don't balance for PvP on Amia.

We balance for both PvE and PvP, both are aspects of our server. We don't balance solely for one or the other, however, unless there's an overriding reason to do so (usually in the case of PvP). Hence, the Time Stop changes and various other things.

I think the best option, if it is going to change, is to scale the items with X number of uses of freedom spell. This allows people to retain the benefit that the server was balanced for, but also allows for a means to counter it by either attempting to fist dispelled the effect or by waiting for it to run out.

I would look at something like:

A side benefit of this would be that people with items could now use them on party members and summons.

TormakSaber wrote:

Honestly, the most difficult argument re: Freedom isn't simply changing the items - it's what to do with players who have paid for Freedom on their DC items, and how to fairly compensate such a change.

Nothing. Strip the item-property without compensation on all items regardless of where it came from. If absolutely necessary then refund the DCs delete the item.

Freedom on items is an abomination and should never have existed in the first place. The whole "oh, but DCs!" thing needs to die in a fire already. No balance argument should hinge on an argument about imaginary currency. Its already absolutely disgusting that you can use DCs to buy ingame power like you can with gear.

I also don't buy the "but RP!" argument either, things change all the time, removing freedom is nothing different from all the other countless changes that can't really be explained ICly that we had no problems pushing though.

DerkDerkistan wrote:

That's an argument for leaving it the way it is, you know.

Err, right. I'll leave you with that.

Just out of curiosity, if someone requests a DC item with other immunities, such as mentioned mind immunity, critical immunity or negative / stat immunity, is it possible to get them?

Guardian wrote:

Just out of curiosity, if someone requests a DC item with other immunities, such as mentioned mind immunity, critical immunity or negative / stat immunity, is it possible to get them?

Amarice-Elaraliel wrote:

The following immunities are allowed on items on Amia, no others:
Immunity Poison
Immunity Disease
Immunity Fear
Immunity Paralyze
Immunity Slow
Immunity Entanglement

http://www.amiaworld.net/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?p=1338581#p1338581

Thanks, great link. I've not requested a custom item yet, well... not with properties, that is, so I was not aware.

Anyway, this :

Immunity Paralyze
Immunity Slow
Immunity Entanglement

... is perfectly fine. Sad part is - why requesting it when Freedom grants immunity to all of it in an instant and is available for a handful of gold

Guardian wrote:

DerkDerkistan wrote:

That's an argument for leaving it the way it is, you know.

Err, right. I'll leave you with that.

You disagree? Look at every single other spell/effect change in the history of this server and you'll see that the overwhelming majority of them are because of PvP balance. PvE balance is easy to do. PvP is different.

See: Time Stop, Bigby's, Divine Favor, Divine Power, Greater Sanctuary, Elemental Shield, Mestil's Acid Sheath, Death Armor, Wounding Whispers, Harm, Implosion, IGMS, Raise Dead, Resurrection, Silence, True Seeing (ehehe...), Word of Faith.

And those are just the spells.

Take Freedom off items and the server will tip heavily in mages' favor. This is why I suggest that if you're going to remove it from items as a flat power and make it a cast x/day thing, make the spell cast on an item so it can't be dispelled.

I disagree because I find PvP excuse cheap. Don't take it personally, I mean it in global point of view and hence the bet - anytime there's a discussion about skill/spell/feat/whatever modification, the PvP is used as a con, some kind of a "Ace in the sleeve". Nonsense - because I think that PvP, from 99%, depends on a player's skill!

So no, I'm not buying it. There are no OP classes on Amia, and removal of Freedom will not create any either. Besides - there are far worse spells, like the mentioned Fear, and there is no immunity against it. There is no mind immunity in the game. There are insta-kill spells in the game, and there is no permanent death protection. Bigby, even though modified, is still an insta-win if used properly. So what's the big deal?

But, I don't think you people get what I'm trying to say in the first place - I am not happy about the permanent freedom on items, and worse, on low tier items, not with the Freedom itself. Because the permanent effect throws a large disbalance not only against spellcasters, but against already mentioned monks, assassins, pale masters and basically anyone who could somehow affect opponents mobility.

I don't mind if the item will be on "unlimited cast per day". I don't mind if it's applied on an item so it cannot be dispelled, it's all fine by me. I do mind it's permanently on a character, because as I said, it's the only immunity in game and sadly, an immunity that actually grants multiple immunities in one, like paralysis immunity, slow immunity, entangle immunity and so on.

Why can't, for example, belt of agility have Immunity to Slow, and that's it. And, for example, Cloak of Freedom only Immunity to Paralysis? Why the whole package?

I always thought Freedom should be taken from non-epic/DC items.
Perma freedom's a pretty freakin' epic thing to have.

I don't have more to say, these topics make my head spin.

Guardian wrote:

Besides - there are far worse spells, like the mentioned Fear, and there is no immunity against it.

Monks at level 20 and Paladins are immune to this from level 2, and, immunity to Fear is allowable on DC items.

Ti'avel wrote:

immunity to Fear is allowable on DC items.

I said "for example". If you wish to be nitpicky, then here goes the list of mind affecting effects from spells / skills, where target becomes :

charmed
confused
dazed
dominated
frightened (Yes, here's the Fear...)
paralyzed
sleep
stunned in some cases...

So, immunity to anything from the list on an item is really okay. Immunity to all is not okay. Hence my objection to the Freedom immunity, where you also have a large list of immunities listed in the category, and yet it's available for free. Mind immunity is not, savy?

I am not going to react on classes, because that's completely off topic. I'm sorry if you do not see that.

Making changes to, or altering the availability of freedom on amia would drastically change the game in what I believe would be a good way in terms of pve and pvp. Environmental challenges would be just that, challanges. And you would see a swift resurgence of crowd control characters on amia, which are super fun.

Terra_777 wrote:

Its already absolutely disgusting that you can use DCs to buy ingame power like you can with gear.

This is also truth.
As has been said already, it's like putting mind control immunity on items or immunity to spell school, it's just too wide and blocks many spells and effects which could work in really interesting ways.

Got a few ideas I wanted to share.

How about only allowing it on epic or custom items? Not the best solution imo..

Adjust the Freedom effect (..renders the affected creature immune to the paralysis, slow, entangle, and movement speed decrease effects) on items if possible. How about Freedom on items grant 50% immunity instead? The spell should remain unaltered of course.

If Freedom is hardcoded you could make a new feat, call it something similar and tone it down a notch. Immunity to movement speed decrease effects and slow, but not paralysis and hard stop entanglements. It should be removed from low level items and only found on tier 4, epic and DC items. That way the effect still retains some appeal without being overpowered.

Another idea I had was to create a new feat to replace Freedom on items, now granting the wearer an extra save roll on the movement speed decrease effects, slow, paralysis and entanglement effects. Similar to Slippery Mind, but for movement altering effects.

Making Freedom an item spell or removing it will have a drastic effect on classes I fear and plenty of balancing will have to happen to even things out. It could make the pile of to-do stuff overwhelming. I'm against that direction.

Personally I'd prefer creating a new feat (Lesser Freedom fx) without immunity to paralysis and entanglement (Hold Person etc.) and only have it appear on tier 4, epic and DC items and leave it at that. That way classes such as PM and RDD paralysis wouldn't appear as pointless technically.

Having helped a character level from 1-20 on an alt of mine I can say that if we removed freedom, there's a shit ton of dungeons that need to not have multiple monsters that spam Hold Person, Fear, and Hold Monster because seriously, fuck my life. The second you lose mindblank or Freedom you get hit and you're dead.

(This isn't really an argument to keep Perma Freedom, mind you, just a general lamentation of levelling an alt....

)

Freedom adjustment

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