In PnP, these are "free actions", and Bioware decided to make them regular actions, thereby taking a lot of time to use. I've seen on another server (PoTM) they changed it to meet the original as intended feat. Is there any way that can be done on Amia?
In PnP, these are "free actions", and Bioware decided to make them regular actions, thereby taking a lot of time to use. I've seen on another server (PoTM) they changed it to meet the original as intended feat. Is there any way that can be done on Amia?
I think it's because it would be incredibly powerful.
In PnP, these are "free actions", and Bioware decided to make them regular actions, thereby taking a lot of time to use. I've seen on another server (PoTM) they changed it to meet the original as intended feat. Is there any way that can be done on Amia?
I think it's because it would be incredibly powerful.
I'm just suggesting making it work as it was intended to. Bioware changed it, not Amia.
In PnP, these are "free actions", and Bioware decided to make them regular actions, thereby taking a lot of time to use. I've seen on another server (PoTM) they changed it to meet the original as intended feat. Is there any way that can be done on Amia?
I think it's because it would be incredibly powerful.
I'm just suggesting making it work as it was intended to. Bioware changed it, not Amia.
I know, I meant it that way. But seriously, when you have for example Dragon Disciple/Blackguard or something like that, very high str and char (around 30) and you use both divine might and divine shield, you are basically in a godmode for few rounds, the only disadvantage is that you have to cast it. Making it free action would make it seriously overpowered. It is strong as it is. (In my opinion!)
Joined: 02 Jun 2015 Location: Georgia, United States.
The time it takes to cast the spell if the foes best shot at killing the Paladin / Blackguard, if you make it a free action for 8 Turns (Depending how many times they have turn undead) they'd be near impossible.
So you're saying adding 8 AC makes someone impossible to beat? I'd have to disagree here. The highest AC a strength based paladin can get (with all epic level gear!) is 55. Now, if they have a base charisma of say... 18, which is pretty common, giving a 10 modifier, they now have a 65 AC.... for one minute. I can think of many builds that can achieve and maintain 65 AC for far longer without resorting to expertise either.
Sure, it does give those attacking the character a chance, but... I still insist that the original feat was a free action, not something that took time. Bioware changed it on a whim, most likely, as they did most things. While changing it back could make it a bit more powerful, it's not as godly as some seem to be thinking.
Joined: 02 Jun 2015 Location: Georgia, United States.
I know a Paladin (He shall not be named) with 77 AC with Imp EXP, and 55 AB. This means he could get 85 on a good day. That is near impossible to kill with some of the builds most players have, including evil. The only way to kill him would be to be a Dex-WM and wait out his Shields and Might. But if we're talking say the Blackguard / DD, this means the +8 AC, with the Divine Shield and Might, plus Dev-Crit.
But this is just me! I don't believe some things should be changed. We've lasted all this time with Amia and it's worked fine.
I didn't find that... but, I did see that DM only lasts a round in Pnp but DS lasts half your character level rounds.... which is more powerful than the NWN version. Odd.
I couldn't find anything saying they ran out after a certain amount of damage though. My source was Complete Warrior and of course the zillion internet sites that may or may nor be accurate. Some had vastly different versions of these feats as well.
I know a Paladin (He shall not be named) with 77 AC with Imp EXP, and 55 AB. This means he could get 85 on a good day. That is near impossible to kill with some of the builds most players have, including evil. The only way to kill him would be to be a Dex-WM and wait out his Shields and Might. But if we're talking say the Blackguard / DD, this means the +8 AC, with the Divine Shield and Might, plus Dev-Crit.
But this is just me! I don't believe some things should be changed. We've lasted all this time with Amia and it's worked fine.
Ok, maybe I just suck at building, but.. to me, I can't see how it's possible for a paladin to self buff to 67 AC, and use improved expertise and still get 55 AB. I'd love to know how that was done. Sure, haste, battle drum, etc etc... that's not what I mean, anyone can use those things.
Also... Dragon Disciples don't get +8 AC on Amia, just +4. Sure, you can build an AC monster, but... everything has a downside.
If this doesn't happen, it's alright, but, I do think using one person's uber-powerbuild as the standard for why it is overpowering is really wrong. No matter what, someone will come up with an overpowered way to use something.
Joined: 02 Jun 2015 Location: Georgia, United States.
One simple way is Fighter / Paladin / Rouge. The fighter can be maxed to 10, with 18 Paladin for the most effective use and 1 rouge for tumble dump. Could even stretch for 25 Str and Dev-Crit if you pick a subrace. The way doesn't matter, it's just to OP for a Paladin to have it as a free-mode. Amia is balanced as is..
One simple way is Fighter / Paladin / Rouge. The fighter can be maxed to 10, with 18 Paladin for the most effective use and 1 rouge for tumble dump. Could even stretch for 25 Str and Dev-Crit if you pick a subrace. The way doesn't matter, it's just to OP for a Paladin to have it as a free-mode. Amia is balanced as is..
How does this achieve 67 AC without expertise or Divine Shield? On a Strength build (you need 13 STR for the prerequisites for DM/DS anyway) you can only get to 55 AC with all +5 gear. There's 12 more AC in the build you refer to. Now I'm curious how it was achieved.
If let's say, it was a Dex build.... 67 AC would still be VERY difficult to reach without Expertise or Divine Shield. It would require again, all +5 gear, and a Dexterity of 52, which... I'm pretty sure isn't possible on Amia.
I'm just curious how AC's that high can be achieved, not intending to be sarcastic. Of course, there is Mage Armor, Bard buffs, Haste, etc... but, as I said, those are available to anyone really, and so, I don't consider them relevant. That said... if those were included in the 67 AC, then, 62 is the real number. That brings the Dexterity down to 42, a doable number, though, some serious minmaxing would need to be done for it to happen. It's just not possible on a Strength build, as far as I can see. There's still 7 AC missing from the equation for a strength build.
I'd really love to hear the explanation, being totally honest.
Joined: 02 Jun 2015 Location: Georgia, United States.
When I get the time I'll go into Toolset, gear up a character and level it. Send you screenies e.t.c. It's really amazing what a player can do with mechanics honestly. I'm not trying to be mean about it either, nor sarcastic. IT's.. truly amazing. I've met some very tough characters on Amia that aren't even power builders, they just have a very solid build.
For a Dex-WM, it's pretty common to have 67 Dex on Amia. That's with all Epic Gear, and still room for Imp Exp.
Also to add to you saying 55 AC at best, you didn't add in tumble. Which 33 tumble is +6 AC.
strength blows, but more importantly when factoring in how this would change amia you need to consider how it would conversely affect everyone who had access to DS/DM. Dexers, casters.... [Both which are just flat out superior to STR]
I'd be for it, if you're divinely inspired in Faerun you /should/ be at an advantage. That's playing the setting.
Joined: 15 Dec 2009 Location: The Sky Above The Rain.
Nyla wrote:
Strength based AC:
10 Base 2 Armor Skin 6 Tumble 5 Boots 8 Shield 13 Armor 5 Amulet 5 Cloak 1 Dex Mod ____________ 55 AC
You can always add one more AC from Ioun. But yeah, I find that 77 AC hard to believe too. And by hard to believe I mean unless I see it I don't buy it.
_________________ Mercadier - *sleeps six feet under the warm sands of Khem* Alex - Life is adventure or nothing! Eddie - Sex, drugs and rock'n... more sex. ========= Obsidian (inactive)
That's the same as what I said, you just added haste, mage armor, improved expertise and 10 Divine Shield. Still not seeing how 85 can happen especially with only an 8 Cha modifier. Then again, Orog? LOL... RDD? There's 6. So I suppose using your example, and those extras, you could get 86.
I don't think we should change things just because of how they are in P&P. NWN might be based off it but it's still a different game - balanced around things like the +12 cap on stat bonuses (it's effectively much lower in P&P). Their pacing is also different, in that it takes about the same time to cast Divine Shield and resume attacking as it does to say, "I use Divine Shield, which brings my AC to blah, and I attack... [etc]". Really, what would the purpose of this change be? It doesn't enhance the roleplay of the affected classes in any way, it purely makes them more powerful. Do they need to be more powerful? Are they particularly suffering? If so, will an extra round help them?
... Also in Complete Warrior 3.5 and Defenders of the Faith: A Guidebook for Clerics and Paladins, Divine Shield is a standard action. I can't find any source that doesn't say it's a standard action.
The PnP version also breaks after a certain amount of damage.
It also only lasts one round, not CHA mod rounds, Might does.
So if you want to use all 10 uses of Turn Undead to have it last as long as one use of Divine Might lasts now, be my guest.
I'm going to guess, though, you want it to last the full CHA mod duration, and that means you can take the exactly 1 round (you're hasted, let's be honest.) to cast both Might and Shield.
This is a no go, imo.
_________________ Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham
Meant to say earlier but yeah, Divine Might and Shield are fine as they are. Well, as far as 'fine' goes with them, haha.
_________________ Whomst've'll'd'mn't I play: Salema Nefahri::A penny for your thots Zrae'a'stra'fryn::That which nightmares are made of Khasir::From the East a storm is coming
Joined: 02 Jun 2015 Location: Georgia, United States.
Now this is a Paladin/ Fighter / Rouge with 59 AC Before Haste and Improved Expertise. 59 + 10 EXP, IMP= 69. Plus a 4 / 5 Haste = 73 / 74 and +1 AC from Ioun Stone. AB is only affected to 42, which is still relatively high. Plus Dev-Crit X weapon.
Ok... explain the 59 AC. It's been shown already that 55 without haste, etc, and expertise of any kind or divine shield is the max, 56 with an ioun. How did you get 59?
Joined: 02 Jun 2015 Location: Georgia, United States.
This exact build is pretty common I am sure. Fully geared with the best materials, +Divine Shield and +6 AC from Tumble (33 Tumble), it ended with 59 AC. However I never threw in Haste nor Improved Expertise because I forgot to while making the module.
If I find the time I can make a 70 AC Epic Dodge with Improved Expertise to 80. One of my characters, Kent, is planned for that build.
That 59 Armor class you showed.... you claim that is -without- haste, expertise, mage armor, divine shield etc. That is what I question. With +6 from tumble and all +5 gear (the highest available on Amia), and an ioun stone, that comes to 56 AC. Many many people have said this already too. I'm very curious where you got an extra 3 AC from?
Ok! You used divine shield in there.... gotcha. 59 is kinda low now, lol.
Yes, Divine Might/Shield in NWN form would be very OP as free actions.
However, one oversight that should be restored to PnP should be that Barbarian Rage and Bard Songs are free actions (well, Bard Song is a standard action in 3.0, which is a half-round) in PnP and pretty much exactly the same mechanically in NWN other than activation.
_________________ Rashad the Azure, Zakharan Merchant-lord Most Fair and Master of the Desert Wind Loremaster Tukson Devers, Oghmanyte Wrestler of Knowledge and Child of the Passive Voice
(No tells for Rashad while I'm playing other characters please.)
_________________ Whomst've'll'd'mn't I play: Salema Nefahri::A penny for your thots Zrae'a'stra'fryn::That which nightmares are made of Khasir::From the East a storm is coming
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