It's not fair to take a small snippet of what I said and try making your point based off that. What I said was:



So maybe you agree with that single line, but it was taken out of context from what I had said. Just to confirm what you're trying to get across though- You're saying a fully geared barbarian (or any melee type really, as I can figure) can beat a fully geared mage, or force it to run?

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so he would always have a friend

Easily.

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a.k.a. Audrey Zinata

Faded is right in this. You think, that -any- melee build in full gear can be destroyed by Wiz/sorc? Did you actually play any of these builds?

You are on AMIA, which is absolutely noob-friendly (Sorry to say that, but regarding builds it is true) and why?

Full 30lvl Wizard vs. Fighter/Rogue/Weapon Master (This is just example)

No mind control - fear, dominate person, etc. (Mind-blank)
No movement control - slow, paralysis, etc. (Freedom)
Almost no evocation spells - Fireballs, Delayed Fireballs, Cone of Cold, Fire Arrow, etc. (Improved Evasion, be it from feat in case of dex build or ring)
No Mestil (Acid immunity ring)
No Ice Storm (Cold Immunity Ring)
No IGMs (Arcane Defiance Armor - Cuts about 50 damage down)
No Weird
No Banshee/Finger (Everyone got wand with DW)

Do I really need to continue? You still think that Mages are OP? Seriously?

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Reynard d'Aubernon - Retired
Balaeyi Elandinai Haeren - Active
Jaezred Kilr'ae - Active

Oh no he didn'!

No, he did, and he's right.

mages are op yes. we arent talking about the poor item design choices that have been made, and really half of those spells can be booked into different damage types.

additionally there is way too much focus on wiz/sorc when the real offender are healable casters

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bad man

First of all, that assumes a pretty ridiculous amount of epics. I know some people say the server is drowning in them, but from my experience that only really counts for the old guard of characters. It also assumes that mages are incapable of dispelling wands or potions. Also, and correct me if I'm wrong here, aren't there Book of Transmutation pages for Mestil and Ice Storm that let you change the damage type? Plus, you're completely leaving out epic spells.

I do think the DEX-based Ftr/Rog/WM is OP, but then I play a STR build that's neither WM or Barbarian, so I'm biased.

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Currently playing:
Aven Brinyflask
Safaya Dalai
Riyit
Chsera Hile

(Credits to Raua for the sprite, sauce -here-.)

Just for funsies, could you tell me what is NOT OP? Because it seems everyone / everything is OP to you guys.

That said, I'm with Fade. I have full spellcaster, full dex. build and full str. build - I admit, the dex. build kick ass. But the spellcasters being OP? Ridiculous. They may seem OP to people who don't know how to PvP properly, and I mean it with all the disrespect I have, but so much for that.

Also, the listed items by Avenger are far from being super-unique. On a contrary, in the current state the server is in it's not uncommon you can buy them for gold, which anyone can fart farm, or trade for mythals, which anyone yet again, can farm. Yes, you do have to farm to get it, so much is true. But you know what they say - no pain, no gain.
As for the different damage type and transmutation book. Yes, but there are rings with all immunities, including fire, cold and acid, so Mestil is out of the question and Ice storm, the transumation changes only physical damage, not the elemental, so yet again, nope.

You still don't get the main point. The main point is the precendet of having a skill save. vs. save roll. Only barbarian has it. And KC taunt, but KC taunt is being far, far from broken as much as TR is.

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Mercadier - *sleeps six feet under the warm sands of Khem*
Alex - Life is adventure or nothing!
Eddie - Sex, drugs and rock'n... more sex.
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Obsidian (inactive)

You can't say the truth out loud like this.

... You have to sugar coat it a bit.

fight me in the streets dawg.

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bad man

Your first statement is incorrect because you are separating the two. Because of the gear 'balance' we have, mages are not OP. They are screwed because of everything we have available.

And clerics are in an even worse spot.


Uh, he only listed four epics. That's pretty on par, especially if you are a boss hunter or have access (via a faction) to epic gear. My char that is only three-ish months old (STR WM) has found at least four epics on his own. He's also gotten epic gear via a faction.


It takes time to cast a Mord's, time that means you are probably about to get smacked around in melee. Also, try using a BoT in combat. Epic spells are easily negated by a single Heal potion. Heck, I am pretty sure a STR WM can withstand both a Hellball and GR at max CON.


And Bertnard, stop posting shit like that in IA. It doesn't contribute.

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Whomst've'll'd'mn't I play:
Salema Nefahri :: A penny for your thots
Zrae'a'stra'fryn :: That which nightmares are made of
Khasir :: From the East a storm is coming

Modding in here, if your reply is just some gifs and short-commented one-liners it is not a place for this forum.

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Life should be prolonged only when it serves the greater cause of the death of the world.

Dispel+Fear

This is often how mages win.

Or you can actually invest in AC, have IE to grab you +10 AC, and bigbys the opponent for -10 AB, NEB for -5 STR. Then you have your summons do the dirty work while you dodge and deflect all blows. Finisher would be a Ruin.

In my opinion, all classes are pretty balanced as far as I can tell, with the exception of SD beyond the HiPS level.

Auto counter vs auto win TR is mindblank. It balances out.

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I guess it depends a lot on your luck and who you know. I'll admit that getting four epics isn't that difficult, but getting those four epics, which are among the very best items on the entire server, is. Mostly it's just warforged spears. At least, that's the only thing that ever drops on those rare occations where I see loot from a boss.

It also takes time to chug potions and wands. Mages aren't the only people who have to worry about the action economy. And sure, activating the BoT in combat isn't gonna happen, but it's not that hard for a mage to disengage from combat and escape somewhere they can adjust their loadout.

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Currently playing:
Aven Brinyflask
Safaya Dalai
Riyit
Chsera Hile

(Credits to Raua for the sprite, sauce -here-.)

Summons don't hit anyone who has decent ac, greater ruin won't get you out of temporary bonus when used vs some classes. Others it's the only sub two hundred damage you'll be able to do period since the mentioned items make you immune to everything else almost.

If you have all or some of the items and a decent amount of consumables, if you lose to a mage, it's a skill gap issue only.

If your 1v1 is a bigby then summon you can save the drama.ill just drink mantles until you run out of spells then two shot you.

Not sure how this topic ended up here. Regarding the original post, I'm just not sure anything really urgent needs to be done to the barbarian class as its still pretty good right now.

It's also incredibly easy to both hard and soft counter terrifying rage completely which is why this is not a real issue, it one at all. Barbarians have already had their nerf, and I am not convinced they need another. Certainly not before shifters and paladins anyways.

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a.k.a. Audrey Zinata

Yeeah, it's gotten a bit off-track. For what it's worth, I do think the Improved Evasion ring is ridiculous enough to warrant a nerf.

But yeah, Barbarians are fine as is. The worst cheese on Amia is defensive, not offensive.

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Currently playing:
Aven Brinyflask
Safaya Dalai
Riyit
Chsera Hile

(Credits to Raua for the sprite, sauce -here-.)

Not really sure why the BBN Terror Rage thread is now mage balance, but hey!

I don't think anyone really thinks a mage can't win a fight, the issue is that the tools they can use become so limited. You simply don't have time to use unreliable magic. Anything that hits Fort or Reflex save 19/20 times is useless.

What i've always thought should happen would be that Imp Evasion is removed, or pushed much higher, and Evasion is put in its place. A few levels of rogue is still great for a built, but Evasion is HUGE, and Imp Evasion is just dumb, i would happily give up my Imp Evasion right, for an Evasion one if this was done across the board. Now people will cry "Mages don't need to be more powerful!" But that's not what this does, this is not making them more powerful, they are the same, they now just have more tools to choose from. It is the same as buffing some of the less used armor types like we did, or making some changes to weapons to they are viable. The difference is that you cant alter the spell, because that's not where the issue is.

Also not a big fan of 100% immunity unless it comes with some kind of drawback. I'd rather see it set to 50%, where the caster has some effect, but it's not economical to push that route. The gear gap has always felt odd between Mage and Fighter. The room for improvement after max level for a fighter is huge, with the gear options. But for a caster, who is focused on casting, there is little to nothing. Extra spell slots is what we have to look forward to, none of which are found in the epic loot. Off the top of my head the only thing that really helps an offensive caster is the +5 int ring (For wizards). So a fighter type can pile on the defensive gear, and be nearly immune to magic, but the mage can.. at best do the same, which does not help when said fighter just knocks the mage down and it's over. But we will never see KD immune.

What id like to see is more counterplay, which i don't think you can do with NwN. But for example, if i wanted to play an Evo focused wizard, i'd want an item that lets me ignore half of someone's immunities. If the defender can get a ring that cuts fire by 100%, can the attacker have one that buffs it, or ignores 50% of that? I'm not suggesting casters be given a counter to every counter, not a full counter counter anyway, but the means to force the issue in their given area if they wanted. It does not in my opinion mean mages are more powerful, rather it means they have more options to work with, so you will see different types of mages played with varied levels of success. But despite that, at the end of the day, that sure options suggested before are still going to be more reliable. Just because we remove Freedom does not mean suddenly mages are crazy OP, it just means instead of that one spell they used in that slot, they now have another option.

I would not encourage pushing the insta win vs save spells though. Save vs Death, leave it alone, it sucks that you more or less have to fish for 1's, but hey, it's an instant win if you get it. It's a shame fort saves make a great many spells unreliable, but the spells themselves have to powerful an effect. Gives some ideas for BoT pages though, say Finger of Death that does a focused amount of N. Energy damage, instead of the save vs death, it's save vs damage like Wilting. Another server i was on gave Banshee a bit of Sonic damage and a will save vs stun effect too, here we could make it either or via BoT.

Been sitting on a load of ideas for changes and bot options for a lot of spells, the idea being to make them viable, not powerful, not game breaking, but viable as a different than the norm. I don't WANT to use Ice Storm, but damn it, there is only so many damage spells one can count on, and not enough spell slots to screw around with half ass unreliable spells.

Also there is no BoT page to change the elemental damage of Ice Storm, it changes the physical damage part from Blug to Piercing, and i think that physical part is like 4d6 or something, it does not scale up.

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House Auvrea'Kan Crafts and Services is now open and prepared to discuss orders.

Guys, we can all disagree and debate about things without being disrespectful to each other. This isn't directed at anyone in particular. I think we lose something as a community when we start making snide remarks and treating this like some sort of competition. It isn't a competition. There is no winning here. We're just trying to figure out what works and is best for the server. So follow the two commandments and we'll all be better off for it.





Anyway, to those saying that there are things we need to worry about before we get to TR, I can understand where you're coming from. There are a lot of things that need to be looked at for balance. That being said... TR is so obviously and utterly broken I don't think we'll ever fix any of those other things if we can't fix this one. Skill vs Save just doesn't make sense for an ability like this. As the player of a squishy mage, I always assume that the character is going to be murdered by anything that gets within two feet of him in a fight anyway, so this really doesn't affect me very much. The only time I can remember ever getting caught with TR in PvP is when someone pulled the old 'walk up close, randomly hostile, and attack out of nowhere' trick.

If the DC calculation wasn't so screwy, I wouldn't be wasting my time with this. But, if the numbers Moogle broke down on the first page are accurate, and I haven't seen anyone say otherwise, the ability isn't just unbalanced. It's broken. Completely broken.

EDIT: Oh and Merry Christmas, Hannukah, Festivus, Solstice, and whateverthefuck.

The thing is, I don't think TR is overpowered. Powerful, yes, basically saveless, yes, but it's so easy to predict and block out via other means that it would just seem unfair to see it nerfed when there's other things that are much more unfair.

People who randomly walk up to others and attack out of nowhere are probably breaking the PvP rules anyway, whether they are using Terrifying Rage, a Palemaster graft or Stunning Fist.

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Currently playing:
Aven Brinyflask
Safaya Dalai
Riyit
Chsera Hile

(Credits to Raua for the sprite, sauce -here-.)

The numbers are possible, but are never done. The average, and all I've ever seen, is base intimidate +8 on a helm. so 32-33 base (depending on leveling order), -1 from cha, +8 from the helm. Again, on average. It's too hard to throw in bits of intimidate here and there on gear when they need other things. This isn't to say it's never happened... just not common. But for the sake of argument here, everyone's assuming that barb's walk around with 80+ intimidate. And that's fine, I get it. It's not the entire picture, however.

That said, I think lilmarcat and Tormak ideas are good, some combination of them.





Tormak wrote a bunch of other stuff too, all on page 1 around the middle.

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so he would always have a friend

Without terrifying rage being as good as it is, I can really say with some confidence that there is hardy enough reasons to play barbarian otherwise. Their hasted rage already got killed. They can't overlap rage, they cant use spells during it, it's really not that great. Mind blank potions are easier to manage than playing a barbarian successfully.

All things being considered, if you're having trouble killing a barbarian, as a mage, you should, but not because barbarians are overpowered. It's because mages.... just dont have the damage output to do anything to a barbarian anyways.

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a.k.a. Audrey Zinata

This thread makes me want to revisit my idea of dex-based stealth-capable barbarian/rogues, who drop assassination warnings via DM and roll through the targets with the rage up at DC 80+, before anyone can put up a mind blank (without being accused of metagaming)

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@Thanatopsis#6293

Completely agree to this day there is no reason to play A Barbarian/fighter/rogue if you can do a strength or Dex Fighter/Wm/Rogue , and nerving terri rage wont help
I got Bothe the standard Earth Genasi WM and the Barbarian Earth Genasi barbarian/bard/RDD(cheese i know) with all the rages and dev Crit,and it still sucks compared to the Strength WM ,

Before you go, but you must have build them wrong
The Wm is fighter10/WM19/Rogue with improved expertise and 54 AB
The Barbarian is Barbarian24/bard2/RDD4, with improved expertise and 1k hp(in rage) , and 46 AB (52 with rage) , AC is the same in bothe builds, But your only good when raging witch is 2 out of 3 fights , the DMG you do is about 30% lower then a strength WM(with haste Rage)
The only things i found that really worked on the Barbarian was Haste Raging and drinking a flame shield pot and drinking Heal pots (works wonders on bosses)
I wont even start discussing my Dex WM that's just silly powerful.

My point is, Barbarians really don't need another nerv , that Terri rage is one of the only things that allow you to hunt without drinking a freaking HEAL pot every 2 fights, yes, ye even with 1k HP (and no you can't use improved expertise then entire time thanks to his low Ab , as you want to run with Haste rage to do DMG leaving you stuck at 46 AB, and -4 AC unles you feel like grinding spawns go ahead and use the standard one, then you start thinking why did i bother making this guy? the strenght Wm has more AB and a mutch more dmg, why did i make that barbarian again...oh right the 1K hp that gets drained every two fights , sure love my heal pots
And dont get me started about timing your Rage,
Timing your Rage is challenging and you dont want to be stuck in a fight when on rage CD
did i mention no other way to re-haste yourself when in rage other then drinking lvl 5 haste pot, that inproved inviz scroll went poof? Oh bad luck , and yes you can get them in potions, have fun finding a guy who makes them.

On the other hand i understand that its OP in PVP and an In stand Winn if they forgot to drink an MB pot, and no a barbarian CANT read scrolls or use items when raging, to dispel MB if its on.
For PVE its a must have, even then i' still suggest making a Fighter/wm/rogue if you want a Melee
If we were living in a perfect world i'd say leave it the same for PVE and nerv it for PVP, but i'm fairly sure that's not possible

And every build got counters to it, the Barbarian has many compared to a strenght/dex WM
Do we really have to change this because one guy turned folks on hostile at random and abused it?

In the end this is still an RP server, so if you want to RP a Barbarian, go ahead and make one

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Plays:
Ragnar Ungorn
Hasam Alrab

I was trying to remain objective with this, and not include my own Barbarian too much when I've posted. Seeing how many people are posting builds, comparing the Barbarian class to the Weapon Master, Wizard, and Sorcerer classes (which are all meant for different purposes), I'm finding it a bit hard to remain objective. It makes me want to beat my head against a wall with how many think that Barbarians suck without Terrifying Rage or that it may ruin the class if Terrifying Rage is made a bit more fair.

My Barbarian has Terrifying Rage. I have kept her Intimidate at 54 on purpose – it goes down to 48 when I switch armors, which I do fairly often. Her Discipline sets at 63, all because I'm still looking for the Epic Discipline Gloves then it will jump into the 90's. She has a grand total of 17 feats because of her build lay out: 21 Barbarian, 4 Fighter, 5 Master Scout. Because of the Master Scout class, it's almost counting as if she has 15 feats given you have to take Skill Focus: Listen and Skill Focus: Spot, even if the class makes up for itself at first level and fifth level. This is a build I have been playing for a few months now, and not one I randomly shot together in a build testing module.

Unbuffed, just walking around with a shield and weapon, she looks like this as a plain human:
HP: 502
AC: 48
AB: 46 (Outdoors due to a Master Scout feat and +12 STR modifier)
Saves: 39 fortitude, 15 reflex, 14 will

Buffed it turns into this:
HP: 562 without rages, 604 with standard rage, 625 with Unyielding Rage, 583 with Ferocity Attack
AC: (+1 DEX modifier, haste, mage armor potions) 54 and 64 with improved expertise, 57 with Unyielding Rage, 67 with Unyielding Rage and improved expertise, 50 with Ferocity Attack, 60 with Ferocity Attack and improved expertise.
AB: (Again, being outdoors, +14 STR modifier, bless, aid, prayer, war cry, battletide from barbarian battle drum) 55, 60 with Standard Rage, 57 with Unyielding Rage
Saves:

• Battle Fortitude: 46 fortitude, 21 reflex, 20 will.
  
• Battle Fortitude and Standard Rage: 48 fortitude, 21 reflex, 22 will.
  
• Battle Fortitude and Unyielding Rage: 48 fortitude, 23 reflex, 23 will.
  
  • My Will would be higher should I drink a wisdom potion.
    
  • This isn't counting what spells from potions that give you saves such as some of her AB buffing potions and items.

Her damage changes depending on what rage she uses. One gives her 10 damage. Her Thundering Rage gives her an additional 1d8 sonic damage. Overall, her damage fluctuates between 40's to 60's for normal hits and then in the 90's to around 120 for critical hits.

Her gear isn't exactly amazing either. The only piece of +5 AC gear she has are her boots. The rest is easily found or made with mythals. Her weapon is only a +4 weapon and she has no way to make it +5 on her own. I keep her CON and STR only 2 to 3 points from being maxed out by drinking a potion. If I wanted to, I could replace some of the Fortitude on her gear and replace it with Will to better balance it out. As I have found out having more than 42 Fortitude fully buffed is sort of a waste, especially when you have another save that's hurting, like Will. That thought comes from formerly playing a character who had 20 levels of Divine Champion and far too much Fortitude for her own good.

Going back to it, the Barbarian has Devastating Critical, Epic Weapon Focus, Terrifying Rage, Thundering Rage, Improved Expertise, Blind Fight, Epic Skill Focus: Intimidate, and all the feats that are required to take Master Scout and Devastating Critical.

Her Discipline, Taunt, and Listen are maxed out at 33. Tumble is at 30. There's a smattering of skills in other things to help her resist taunts, minor focus in being able to set and disable traps, to qualify for the Master Scout class, on top of having skills to qualify her for the PrC Animal Lord – which she does have approved.

She can also boss hunt on her own with no need to drink a Heal potion every 2 attacks. If her rage wears off, it's no big deal. I've also not seen her put many bosses into fear. Some are immune to it. I invested into making her be able to survive without Terrifying Rage working or monsters being immune to fear.

So, tell me again Barbarians are useless without Terrifying Rage how it is right now. Because I don't believe it. A friend of mine used to play a Barbarian/Bard/Weapon Master and he used to run every single boss, even the Beholders by himself.

But, in the end, comparing builds to one another is relatively pointless (even if I just did all that... bah lol) because the only way builds are the same is if a person purposely gets a build from another and follows it to the letter - skill points, feats, abilities, everything. Then, on top of that, you would need the same gear layout and spell/potion spread. Comparing a Weapon Master's damage to a Barbarian's damage is like comparing starfruit to ginger and seeing which one smells like the number 9. Weapon Masters are meant for high damage, Barbarians are not.

Does this mean that all Barbarian builds are the best and I think everyone is crazy? Of course not. Everyone has brought some good opinions - I just wanted to bring my own, and my own experiences.

The TL;DR version of this post would have to be:
Barbarians are strong, if you take the time to invest in keeping them alive and not rely on their rages (or Terrifying Rage) alone. Terrifying Rage has counters but even as that stands, it is far too powerful. It's Skill vs. Save. It could potentially become saveless and woe to the character who doesn't get Mindblank off in time, who isn't naturally immune to fear from classes or items (since PvP has been brought up so much). No character should be able to instantly scare demons of the Abyss. It doesn't make any sense. They have seen, done things, and answer to things far more terrifying than a mortal barbarian. The same can be said for a lot of other monsters on the server.

Barbarians are like any other class. Invest time and effort into them, and they turn out well. Focus on only their damage or HP and... It tends not to go very well.

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