Now that you mentioned rage... how is terrifying rage even remotely balanced? Sure, a mindblank. However, it's a skill versus a save. I mean.... the prerequisite is a 25 intimidate score, admittedly, that would be 24 or even 23 based on charisma modifier (most aren't all that charismatic), versus a will save. Now...the -best- will save I can come up with is a paladin/DC saves build, fully buffed up and +20 will saves is about 55. Now, that's really pushing it. This took 4 feats, 40 charisma and +20 on gear or DC levels to achieve. The terrarager needed 25 just to qualify. Now, the terrarager can put 50 points of gear on too, and get 75. That means, even that completely focus built character, just to attain the highest will possible, can only make the save on a 20. What if the barbarian put just one more point than the required minimum or... maxed out the skill, and used less gear? They'd easily beat anyone's saves.
Joined: 15 Dec 2009 Location: The Sky Above The Rain.
TR as it is now is brutally messed up. It has been said before too...
_________________ Mercadier - *sleeps six feet under the warm sands of Khem* Alex - Life is adventure or nothing! Eddie - Sex, drugs and rock'n... more sex. ========= Obsidian (inactive)
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Why type of solution are you hoping for? Remove it vs. Will? I mean I'm all for change, but it seems like you want to change a lot. >.> Terrifying Rage is pretty powerful, such means it is a Barbarian's best weapon.
Joined: 15 Dec 2009 Location: The Sky Above The Rain.
No, remove it as skill vs. save. That's what is wrong with it.
_________________ Mercadier - *sleeps six feet under the warm sands of Khem* Alex - Life is adventure or nothing! Eddie - Sex, drugs and rock'n... more sex. ========= Obsidian (inactive)
It's not powerful, it's overpowerful. Skill vs Save is completely unbalanced. I'd say make it versus another skill or.. make it a save versus a save. Or... make the check 1/2 intimidate skill vs will save... even that is OP, but not as bad.
Joined: 02 Jun 2015 Location: Georgia, United States.
Skill vs. Skill is a smart idea, but which skill? Intimidate vs. Discipline? That's OP for Weapon Masters / Fighters because most melee focused builds max out Discipline for Improved Knockdown. Intimidate vs. Concentration?
Well, right now Terrifying Rage is an instant win if the opponent didn't drink a mindblank, or if the rager uses a Tome of Mystra, which is the MO normally. Nothing should be an instant win.
Actually, discipline vs intimidate makes sense. A warrior's discipline keeps him fighting when he begins to fear things, it works in this case. Also, discipline isn't all that useful except for avoiding KD's and disarms. This breathes some life into a skill that many use.
disagree. it's so incredibly easily countered. pop a mind blank potion. which are available in unlimited supply in every town for cheap. dispelling mind blank while in the barbs fear circle doesn't auto fear you. just pop another pot real quick and you're good. it's literally one of the easiest counters in the game. barbs only real chance is to catch you off guard with it. but once you know who the barbs are ic, you hit that MB right away. and having to invest in too much intimidate gear would gimp the barbarian.
additionally, using disc halfway makes some sense but... its used for resisting knockdown and is amplified by physical strength. how does being physically strong make one more mentally disciplined? it does not. how does it help one resist being pushed over or tripped? no clue. but that's just how the game is. being that disc in nwn seems to reflect -physical- disc alone, mechanically speaking, I can't support this. concentration would be closer to will than nwn disc.
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I agree the DC is ridiculously broken, whoever thought skill vs will was a good Idea really needs to rethink that. When you can easily get a level 30 to have around 100 Ranks in a skill, while it takes a lot to get only 50ish in a save to resist it is not remotely balanced. I could get behind the ludicrous save if it required more than 25 skill ranks, a bit of gear, and a single epic feat to achieve. But since it doesn't.. Nope. DC should be based off of the Barb level + CHA modifier-- Same as all the other class-related abilities like the Assassin's special attack DCs (Class Level + INT modifier) or the Shadowdancer's Shadowdaze DC (Class Level + DEX Modifier)
KC's entreatment also does this (Taunt Vs Will) --Which also should be changed to Taunt Vs Concentration or something similar, but that's a different discussion I can bring to the Devs.
treasured memories wrote:
being that disc in nwn seems to reflect -physical- disc alone, mechanically speaking, I can't support this. concentration would be closer to will than nwn disc.
Preeeeeeeetty much what I think when I see this. I can't support Discipline being used as a counter, discipline is a stat meant to reflect physical capabilities, not mental ones. Concentration reflects an ability to focus, which is a mental discipline-- Makes much more sense for resisting a fear effect.
_________________ Occasionally seen as [DM] Raua, or playerside as...
Well... being fair, terrifying rage isn't an auto given feat, like the assassin and SD feats. Still though, perhaps a boost? Barb level + cha mod +5? or... something? That would bring it in line with a REALLY good will save, and keep it effective, but, possible to beat.
I agree the DC is ridiculously broken, whoever thought skill vs will was a good Idea really needs to rethink that.....................DC should be based off of the Barb level + CHA modifier-- Same as all the other class-related abilities like the Assassin's special attack DCs (Class Level + INT modifier) or the Shadowdancer's Shadowdaze DC (Class Level + DEX Modifier)
treasured memories wrote:
being that disc in nwn seems to reflect -physical- disc alone, mechanically speaking, I can't support this. concentration would be closer to will than nwn disc.
Preeeeeeeetty much what I think when I see this. I can't support Discipline being used as a counter, discipline is a stat meant to reflect physical capabilities, not mental ones. Concentration reflects an ability to focus, which is a mental discipline-- Makes much more sense for resisting a fear effect.
Yeah, Skill vs Skill makes more sense with Concentration than Discipline.
Now, if you want to use a Barb Level and Stat modifier instead of Skill vs Skill you're getting closer but I think CHA is the wrong stat. Are you fearful of the Barbarian because he's a charismatic leader? The force of his personality? He's persuaded you to be fearful? He made a scary face? I know the Intimidate skill is aligned to CHA but we are throwing out Skill as the DC driver anyway.
I'd argue you're afraid on a level of instinct because you see a non stop, enduring, juggernaut of raging death. Nothing can stop him, he plows through, shrugs off blows that could kill most men, and seems to have the endurance of an elephant. Arrows fill his armor like a pincushion and he just keeps on coming. Blows and spells slam into him and he just keeps on coming. He's an unstoppable force. Now, that's scary. You see an angry $#%@^ charging at you and you get the hell out of the way because he's just going to keep on coming. So, I'm arguing CON modifier is more apt.
So, typically 24-30 on Level plus perhaps 10 for the Con Mod. A Will Save of 34-40 would be the norm, which is good, but not Win button territory. Now if you make it CHA it's going to be alot lower since you are effectively then splitting Barb Abilities 3 ways, STR, CON, and CHA. Which means if its CHA and Level + MOD no one will be taking the feat.
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That's good but.... Cha isn't an SD main stat or assassin, but CON is the barb's main stat. I can see it working still, just straight barb levels + CON mod. Seems reasonable.
Joined: 09 Jul 2014 Location: The Land of >9000 Lakes (GMT -6)
I can get behind CON too, but my line of reasoning also comes from Assassins only benefit from a high INT is their DCs, and Intimidate is based off of force of personality-- You need to know how to scare people. But that's my interpretation, mechanically, Con could make sense too-- And exactly why we have teams discuss these things~
EDIT: (Also, the implicit line of reasoning was 10+ Class level + Ability modifier, like how DCs are calculated-- Didn't think to include it because I thought it was implied~ So, for clarity's sake )
_________________ Occasionally seen as [DM] Raua, or playerside as...
as powerful as teri rage might seem on paper, has it actually been a persistent problem for anyone in game? in all my time on amia, I've only ever seen Frugdar with it. and everyone knows he's a barb in game, or soon finds out. undoubtedly there are more but... it's not a major issue. barb is the last class that needs a nerf right now.
_________________ so he would always have a friend
Terrifying Rage is overpowered - my main character is a barbarian who has it. I've purposely made it where her intimidate is where people have a chance of succeeding the Will save should she ever get into PvP, just because of how cheesy it currently is. It's sad too, because Barbarians can be strong on their own without it, but it's become such a overpowered thing people have built Barbarians to solely work on Terrifying Rage alone and that's not right. Barbarian is an amazing class and thanks to Terrifying Rage, the RP behind the class is sometimes ignored for the sake of just taking Terrifying Rage and owning anything not immune to mind effects.
As it stands right now, someone could easily get their intimidate skill up into the 90's or higher, just like they could any other skill. That means the DC is 90+. If you want to make it strong without making it overpowered, make the DC = 1/2 intimidate skill (rounded down). Even if a person focused in intimidate, taking every feat they can and actually putting a decent number in charisma, it would look like this:
54 and 49 and much more easier to resist than 108 and 99. If you purposely play a class that gets low will, don't invest in will on any of your gear, then you can't really complain if you're killed or immobilized by a DC vs. Will feat/spell. As it stands right now, only Paladins and people who have requested fear immunity on items can resist how high the DC for Terrifying Rage can get, and that can (and is) be complained about - it's not fair.
While charisma isn't something you would think you would need to max on a Barbarian, if the DC was changed to 1/2 the intimidate skill it would be something people would need to invest in should they want to be all powerful, I'll fear you and kill you before you can drink a potion (for those unlucky enough to not have fear immunity).
Also, could Terrifying Rage be made to where we can toggle it on and off? Sometimes it would be nice to see barbarians go into a rage and not fear things around them. It makes it awkward and a game of chase the mouse while in a party.
If possible, there's the idea to make it just run off base Intimidate ranks; so a max of a 33 DC.
Making TR run off CHA is bad, cause barbs don't use CHA. It would rekt a barb build to do that. STR makes the most sense, but CON is viable as well. Maybe Intimidate + higher of STR or CON
_________________ Whomst've'll'd'mn't I play: Salema Nefahri::A penny for your thots Zrae'a'stra'fryn::That which nightmares are made of Khasir::From the East a storm is coming
I'm honestly fine with Terrifying Rage being functionally saveless, even if I don't play a barbarian. We all know that if it was an epic spell instead of an epic barbarian feat, it would be. It would probably pierce fear immunity too.
_________________ Currently playing: Aven Brinyflask Safaya Dalai Riyit Chsera Hile
If possible, there's the idea to make it just run off base Intimidate ranks; so a max of a 33 DC.
Making TR run off CHA is bad, cause barbs don't use CHA. It would rekt a barb build to do that. STR makes the most sense, but CON is viable as well. Maybe Intimidate + higher of STR or CON
It already runs off charisma, seeing as intimidate is charisma. The rages last rounds of 5 + constitution modifier, so in a way a build with Terrifying Rage (if someone wants the absolute highest) would have to invest in charisma somewhere as it stands now. What I listed was what people could already do, but a way to tone it down without destroying the feat - 33 as a set standard DC isn't that high. Even devastating critical can get up to 39-40, or higher if you're an Earth Genasi or Dragon Disciple (... Or both).
If you cut the DC to 1/2 intimidate rounded down instead of full intimidate skill, the lowest DC you could possibly get is 16 (33 intimidate with a -1 charisma modifier results in 32 intimidate, cut in half).
If you had a full 33 points, with no negative charisma modifier, and took Epic Skill Focus: Intimidate, the lowest your DC for Terrifying Rage would be 21 without any intimidate or charisma items at all. Pop on items that give you 20 intimidate, your DC would be 31, and so on.
Is is that easy to gear into intimidate, anyway? I don't think I've seen an item with more than +10, and I'm pretty sure there aren't any of those ridiculous +30 epic gloves for it either. Keep in mind, the highest skill boost you can craft onto an item is +5, and that requires a Greater Mythal.
_________________ Currently playing: Aven Brinyflask Safaya Dalai Riyit Chsera Hile
Derp, I meant Barb levels + greater of STR or CON haha.
There's a cloak with +10 and a helm with +8, that's 18 right away, then you just need 8-ish other peices of gear with +5 on them. Less if you have DC gear. So yeah, it's not hard at all. And when they are crying in fear you don't even need your better gear on.
I like the levels plus mod idea, makes it like a spell. I'd rather it be great of STR or CON because you usually build a Barbarian for STR or CON. If you build a DEX barb, oh well, imo. A STR barb will generally be 24 levels + 14 mod = 38 DC and a CON barb Is likely around that (maybe less if they only went 22 CON, so then 36 for the DC).
It's a nifty idea, still a high save but more reasonable.
_________________ Whomst've'll'd'mn't I play: Salema Nefahri::A penny for your thots Zrae'a'stra'fryn::That which nightmares are made of Khasir::From the East a storm is coming
10+class level+CHA like every other class ability. Yeah, barbs don't get CHA normally. So what? Sacrifice for it. Plenty of ways to gear up your CHA. Assassins have to deal with INT for their class ability, barbs can deal too.
Int is synergistic with the assassin playstyle and class in a way that cha is not for barbs outside of hiking up the DC for one ability that is overpowered because of its save mechanic.
Cha is not chosen despite the skill being based off it for theme reasons: Being terrifying can come from many aspects. Game reasons: It's not fun to gear STR, DEX, CON, and CHA on a character. Monks are proof of this, needing str, dex, wis, and con. PnP nod reeasons: There are feats in pnp that allow you to base intimidate off STR checks, and this would be a nod to the class while maintaining a syngery in line with the class's main ability, that being CON, vs the WM's reliance on STR.
CON also means we don't say "Oh well" to dex barbs which should not be done because removing playtstyles and niche gimmick fun builds should be avoided whenever possible. CHA is already used by clerics, paladins, bards, divine champs, blackguards, and sorcerors: CON is the sole niche of the barbarian, the dwarven defender, and silly gimmick RDD builds thta no one uses. LEt's not add another CHA dependant class to the game and one that is explicitly not supported by th ingame items and gearsets available to a character.
Class level is not used as a DC for base classes because the DC can spike too high. It is reserved for PrC abilities not tied to feats. 10 + 1/2 HD is the standard DC used for feats, spell like abilities and the like and would be suitable here. A barbarian with 30 con buffed will get a DC 35 fear aura on command a great deal of times per day. This is reasonable: The rage is coming with many other boosts that aren't just fear, as opposed to Dev crit requiring a hit, a critical hit, and a failed fortitude save to perform any of its effects.
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Class level is not used as a DC for base classes because the DC can spike too high. It is reserved for PrC abilities not tied to feats. 10 + 1/2 HD is the standard DC used for feats, spell like abilities and the like and would be suitable here. A barbarian with 30 con buffed will get a DC 35 fear aura on command a great deal of times per day. This is reasonable: The rage is coming with many other boosts that aren't just fear, as opposed to Dev crit requiring a hit, a critical hit, and a failed fortitude save to perform any of its effects.
I like that. A fluctuating DC depending on the constitution modifier will still be pretty devastating in certain scenarios, and won't completely ruin the feat. At the same time there won't be DCs for 90+ floating around that make people roll their eyes whenever they see a barbarian with Terrifying Rage.
The absence of Charisma should be more of a determining factor for Barbs instead of an abundance of Charisma. A scary Barb is gonna have low CHA, because this makes them scary.
The absence of Charisma should be more of a determining factor for Barbs instead of an abundance of Charisma. A scary Barb is gonna have low CHA, because this makes them scary.
Should CHA be tied to rage? No.
Very fundamental misunderstanding of what charisma actually means.
The absence of Charisma should be more of a determining factor for Barbs instead of an abundance of Charisma. A scary Barb is gonna have low CHA, because this makes them scary.
Should CHA be tied to rage? No.
Very fundamental misunderstanding of what charisma actually means.
Many people still think charisma = beauty
No but seriously, charisma makes sense, even tho it's something barbs don't really want for anything except this.
Yeah we're not going to screw over every barb build by making them suddenly need CHA. That would be like making Epic Dodge require WIS because if you are wise you know it's time to dodge that attack.
_________________ Whomst've'll'd'mn't I play: Salema Nefahri::A penny for your thots Zrae'a'stra'fryn::That which nightmares are made of Khasir::From the East a storm is coming
I'm honestly fine with Terrifying Rage being functionally saveless, even if I don't play a barbarian. We all know that if it was an epic spell instead of an epic barbarian feat, it would be. It would probably pierce fear immunity too.
Erhh... what? If you got every epic spell feat in the game you still couldn't kill a medicore level 25 who uses 1 heal potion? Barbarians are far better off than any flavor of mage at the moment.
Terrifying Rage seems fine to me, seeing how it has numerous counters to it. They include:
2 Levels of Paladin. 20 Levels of Monk. Lesser Mindblank potions that are widely available and every class/character can use it. Lesser / ordinary Mindblank that can be casted prior. Remove Fear spell. Greater Restoration spell. Protection vs Alignment, Lawful/Chaotic/Good/Evil. 5% chance to resist it regardless of the DC. Some Druid/Shifter forms. Polymorph Self spell. Shapechange spell. Probably more I've missed.
Erhh... what? If you got every epic spell feat in the game you still couldn't kill a medicore level 25 who uses 1 heal potion? Barbarians are far better off than any flavor of mage at the moment.
Faded, I like you, but I genuinely don't see how anyone could say this with a straight face. It is not hard for mages to turn people into pulp. Failing that, they've got some of the best escape mechanisms in the game available to them.
Kas wrote:
Terrifying Rage seems fine to me, seeing how it has numerous counters to it. They include:
2 Levels of Paladin. 20 Levels of Monk. Lesser Mindblank potions that are widely available and every class/character can use it. Lesser / ordinary Mindblank that can be casted prior. Remove Fear spell. Greater Restoration spell. Protection vs Alignment, Lawful/Chaotic/Good/Evil. 5% chance to resist it regardless of the DC. Some Druid/Shifter forms. Polymorph Self spell. Shapechange spell. Probably more I've missed.
Don't forget the number of people who put fear immunity on their dream coin gear.
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TormakSaber wrote:
Class level is not used as a DC for base classes because the DC can spike too high. It is reserved for PrC abilities not tied to feats. 10 + 1/2 HD is the standard DC used for feats, spell like abilities and the like and would be suitable here. A barbarian with 30 con buffed will get a DC 35 fear aura on command a great deal of times per day. This is reasonable: The rage is coming with many other boosts that aren't just fear, as opposed to Dev crit requiring a hit, a critical hit, and a failed fortitude save to perform any of its effects.
Sounds pretty good AND Con. makes much more sense than Char. in case of barbarians and TR.
Me likes...
_________________ Mercadier - *sleeps six feet under the warm sands of Khem* Alex - Life is adventure or nothing! Eddie - Sex, drugs and rock'n... more sex. ========= Obsidian (inactive)
Erhh... what? If you got every epic spell feat in the game you still couldn't kill a medicore level 25 who uses 1 heal potion? Barbarians are far better off than any flavor of mage at the moment.
Faded, I like you, but I genuinely don't see how anyone could say this with a straight face. It is not hard for mages to turn people into pulp. Failing that, they've got some of the best escape mechanisms in the game available to them.
Kas wrote:
Terrifying Rage seems fine to me, seeing how it has numerous counters to it. They include:
2 Levels of Paladin. 20 Levels of Monk. Lesser Mindblank potions that are widely available and every class/character can use it. Lesser / ordinary Mindblank that can be casted prior. Remove Fear spell. Greater Restoration spell. Protection vs Alignment, Lawful/Chaotic/Good/Evil. 5% chance to resist it regardless of the DC. Some Druid/Shifter forms. Polymorph Self spell. Shapechange spell. Probably more I've missed.
Don't forget the number of people who put fear immunity on their dream coin gear.
Enough said.
Anyway, Tormaks idea sounds pretty cool! Much better than current skill vs. save bullsh*t...
_________________ Reynard d'Aubernon - Retired Balaeyi Elandinai Haeren - Active Jaezred Kilr'ae - Active
The absence of Charisma should be more of a determining factor for Barbs instead of an abundance of Charisma. A scary Barb is gonna have low CHA, because this makes them scary.
Should CHA be tied to rage? No.
Very fundamental misunderstanding of what charisma actually means.
A beastly and dangerous monster-like thing that a Barbarian is doesn't really have personal magnetism, an ability to lead, or physical attractiveness. Just like any scary monster- they lack these traits.
what? what is this supposed to say? arguments are invalid? not really getting it.
Assuming this change does happen (which i'm still about 95ish% against), would the intimidate skill no longer play a role in rage? if so, I guess it does free up an entire skill point for barbs. That's the +/-5% that's got me only slightly agreeing to this. not that anyone gives a damn about my opinion, BUT. As it's been said, there's more pressing issues of balance, I think, than barb's fear aura. Because, again, to counter this fear is literally the easiest thing to do. One potion. One click.
Afterthought- if this DOES happen, what about making rage a free action, so it doesn't take the entire round to start swingin'. Just an idea to lessen the sting of the nerf.
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This is actually one of the very, very few exceptions where PvE is playing bigger role than the hated PvP.
There was a discussion about end-game mobs being basically immune to all spells / abilities because of tremendously high rolls. Enraged TerBarb literally runs through an epic locations and anything that's in his way and is not mind or fear immune is panicking and running away. And I can say without a doubt that no other class can do this. Skill vs. Save is wrong - period.
As for PvP, I'm not going to name, but I saw and witnessed an unnamed barbarian randomly switching people to dislike and having a laugh hunting them down while they were terrified. No other class have such an insta-win ability at the moment.
Can you imagine that mage would have a spell where spellcraft is applied the same way as Intimidate is applied on TR? Let's say Fear, or Confusion, with roll over 90? C'mon, guys. Be reasonable.
_________________ Mercadier - *sleeps six feet under the warm sands of Khem* Alex - Life is adventure or nothing! Eddie - Sex, drugs and rock'n... more sex. ========= Obsidian (inactive)
Can you imagine that mage would have a spell where spellcraft is applied the same way as Intimidate is applied on TR? Let's say Fear, or Confusion, with roll over 90? C'mon, guys. Be reasonable.
Man, I always wanted an implosion with DC equal to my spellcraft skill... *Switch to serious mode*
It's true that if you remove intimidate scaling from TR, you'd have to give all barbs a complete rebuild. Because intimidate is only useful for this and 4 point for WM...
*Switching back* Oh! And to pay less when traveling through desert!
No but really, I'm not sure if it was even useful in Campaign? It's HOTU skill, right? So some conversations in HOTU maybe? Let's make something for rogue/assassin that scales with bluff
This is actually one of the very, very few exceptions where PvE is playing bigger role than the hated PvP.
There was a discussion about end-game mobs being basically immune to all spells / abilities because of tremendously high rolls. Enraged TerBarb literally runs through an epic locations and anything that's in his way and is not mind or fear immune is panicking and running away. And I can say without a doubt that no other class can do this. Skill vs. Save is wrong - period.
As for PvP, I'm not going to name, but I saw and witnessed an unnamed barbarian randomly switching people to dislike and having a laugh hunting them down while they were terrified. No other class have such an insta-win ability at the moment.
Can you imagine that mage would have a spell where spellcraft is applied the same way as Intimidate is applied on TR? Let's say Fear, or Confusion, with roll over 90? C'mon, guys. Be reasonable.
I get your point, but comparing to a mage is, uhh. . . Well, a mage has a vast number of other things, most of which are better than something that can be easily blocked. At least, that's my line of thinking, and what my experience has taught me. Mages have escapes and various CC/offensive/defensive options. A barb has the rage and go(usually).TR is by no means a "insta-win", no more than bigby's or timestop/evard's spam is. I would argue it's even less so, in some cases.
As for the person you mentioned randomly setting people to dislike? That's obvious OOC abuse, and I don't think really argues a point against it mechanically.
It's not even that I think this nerf is -that- game changing, as a DC 34-36 is still fair, targeting will against most things. People will still pop those MB potions, and still be immune to it. It's that, as said before, there's more pressing balance issues IMO. Though, I think the balance is in an okay place right now, compared to others issues the server has. So on that principle, it bothers me most.
That said, I still think TR is fine as is.
_________________ so he would always have a friend
Yeah, it's kinda unfair to compare the DC of Terrifying Rage with the DC of mage spells. TR is really the only trick barbarians have, aside from just punching people, and while it's very strong, it's also easy to predict and prepare against. Meanwhile, mages have a dozen different tricks for screwing with people, and while it's easy enough to prepare against a subset of them, you can't prepare against all of them unless you're some ridiculous cheesebuild. Or a paladin.
Chug a mindblank, that's the only thing you need to do. Even if they've got a Disjunction scroll, just... run away while they're casting, it's not hard.
Also...
Guardian wrote:
There was a discussion about end-game mobs being basically immune to all spells / abilities because of tremendously high rolls.
I want to point out that this was brought up as a bad thing.
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Joined: 15 Dec 2009 Location: The Sky Above The Rain.
Larsaan wrote:
Guardian wrote:
There was a discussion about end-game mobs being basically immune to all spells / abilities because of tremendously high rolls.
I want to point out that this was brought up as a bad thing.
Yeah, it is a bad thing. Fully focused necromancer have no chance with necro spells like Banshee or FoD with end-game mobs / bosses. Fully focused evoker priest have no chance with implosion. And yet - TerBarb will scare away any creature instantly because no matter how high your saves are, you cannot beat the skill rolls. That is what is wrong.
You both still don't get it. So I will repeat myself :
Guardian wrote:
This is actually one of the very, very few exceptions where PvE is playing bigger role than the hated PvP.
This is not about mind blank pots. Not about PvP in the first place or if barbs are or are not OP. This is about skill rolls vs. save rolls. Skill rolls vs. Save rolls is wrong setup and has to be fixed.
The mage example I gave was just to illustrate my point.
_________________ Mercadier - *sleeps six feet under the warm sands of Khem* Alex - Life is adventure or nothing! Eddie - Sex, drugs and rock'n... more sex. ========= Obsidian (inactive)
well, I do get it. it's just, a barb can't stay in rage for very long anywho, nor has that many uses, and has a cooldown for it. still! if other changes were made to rage along with the dc decrease I'd be for it. because a flat nerf isn't what a barb needs, pve or pvp. balance? maybe.
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The rages last rounds of 5 + constitution modifier, so in a way a build with Terrifying Rage (if someone wants the absolute highest) would have to invest in charisma somewhere as it stands now. What I listed was what people could already do, but a way to tone it down without destroying the feat - 33 as a set standard DC isn't that high. Even devastating critical can get up to 39-40, or higher if you're an Earth Genasi or Dragon Disciple (... Or both). 
