AMIA ARCHIVE • View topic - Make the Blackguard Spell Widgets Charisma Based

Hey amia! So I mained a blackguard for a long time and I can tell you in no uncertain terms... it is not a very good class. It has a serious MADS problem, and what spells it does get if you seriously gimp yourself by taking the required Wisdom have very short durations and are one use per day. At the very least, changing the Wisdom requirements to Charisma would make the widgets more accessible.

Blackguards in PnP used Wisdom, but blackguards in PnP were awful. I'd rather we take a page out of the Antipaladin's book in Pathfinder, which uses charisma for all of it's spells. It's much more playable and doesn't require you to have a bunch of middling or low stats in order to access all of your class features. There are other things I would suggest for the widgets as well but I think this is honestly the best change we can make.

buff that bad class, aw yis. or make it unique and open up corner paladins.

Effectively you want the requirement for blackguard widget-spells to go away, because no one plays a blackguard with less than 14 base charisma anyway.

If they need a buff, I say make the abilities last longer, or upgrade them somehow. We have the technology (I think?)

I'm inclined to agree with Bob on this one! I mean, let's think about it from a roleplay stance too. You -willingly- made a pact with a evil force. I don't consider that wise in any way. (but others might disagree with me)

serbiris wrote:

... no one plays a blackguard with less than 14 base charisma anyway.

So, a paladin with no MAD, sneak attack and an epic pet? Not sure I understand how that's terribly balanced mechanically.

I'm already of the mind the paladin is at the disadvantage of the two as having a largely "meh" spell list that's mostly never used isn't that much of a sell. Sure, there's a couple decent spells in there but is being able to use them a couple more times a day worth always-on sneak attack and the constant damage buff/pile of free HP that is an epic pet?

I'm not saying I disagree necessarily, but looking at what's already been done to BGs and where paladins are, if BGs got this you'd have a hard time convincing me choosing paladin was even worthwhile if this BG exists. All paladins seem to be to me is a BG without sneak attack or an epic pet who can cast divine might two times more a day (with much harsher RP demands and consequences).

Not exactly a real deal-maker, objectively speaking. The PowerGamer in me would scream "Heck yes, it's blackguard time! Why bother with paladin? Pffft."

Kind of like how I feel with "Amia assassin vs rogue." Haha, why does rogue even exist.

Really? I'd say that paladins easily have the edge on blackguards. Holy Sword is objectively better than its unholy counterpart, they get much more spells to buff their AB (and the blackguard version of Divine Favor doesn't go past +3 no matter how many levels you have), they get Death Ward, they get GMW, they can Extend those spells, and craft them into wands/potions, they get Lay on Hands, they get fear immunity, they get poison immunity, Smite Evil has much more PvE viability than Smite Good, they have much more synergy with Divine Champion, they're a base class...

Compared to all that, blackguards really don't have that much going for them. They don't get "full" sneak attack, they get 2/3 the progression that a rogue has; 16 levels of blackguard gives you 5d6 sneak attacks, while the same amount of rogue levels gives 8d6. In addition, not all the epic fiends are good. The LE one might be, but the NE summon will regularly get trounced by something out of Summon Creature IX.

As for the rogue vs. assassin thing, rogue is a base class that has a much easier time getting Epic Dodge. There's a reason why DEX-based Rogue/Fighter/WM is one of the strongest builds on the server.

5d6 sneak attack and a solid summon is a pretty solid edge over pallies, especially if your BG has sneak attack from another source. That said I do think pallies are stronger if only by virtue of game design seeing as its much easier to find evil to smite than good.

But this isnt a solution.

Make it possible to start as Blackguard at lvl 1 :mrgreen:

I don't know, I have one blackguard and he's pretty strong, not very powerful, but still strong

Bertnard wrote:

Make it possible to start as Blackguard at lvl 1 :mrgreen:

Either that or make paladin a PrC. Both could work as a charm.

OpenTheRift wrote:

buff that bad class, aw yis. or make it unique and open up corner paladins.

Corner paladins are not going to be a thing.

Naivatkal wrote:

OpenTheRift wrote:

buff that bad class, aw yis. or make it unique and open up corner paladins.

Corner paladins are not going to be a thing.

constructive post m8

paladin is a far superior class to bg, are yall being real to me rn?

OpenTheRift wrote:

Naivatkal wrote:

OpenTheRift wrote:

buff that bad class, aw yis. or make it unique and open up corner paladins.

Corner paladins are not going to be a thing.

constructive post m8

paladin is a far superior class to bg, are yall being real to me rn?

Your post isn't constructive either. Paladins are not hands down better than blackguards.

I'm obligated to say, as always, that Paladin and Blackguard are not meant to be counterparts, blurb flavor aside. They are different classes that oppose each other more so in lore more than in mechanics. Blackguard is not Antipaladin, either. Constantly asking for Blackguard to be made equivalent in some way to Paladin is like constantly asking for there to be a Good counterpart to Assassin or a Chaotic counterpart to Monk. They're different things. If we could stop making that false equivalence every couple of months, it would do my heart good. If the class needs buffing, as it well may need(or at least its summons fixed), it won't be because it's not just a color-swapped Paladin.

Making the argument for changes to BG usually goes smoother anyway when you try to explain the class on its own terms. Otherwise, it inevitably devolves into a back of forth of what one class has over the other, when they were not intended to be mirrors of each other in the first place. Like complaining that this apple isn't orangey enough, or that this orange needs more apple core.

DI is right. Comparisons never really achieve the desired result. I think, from what I've seen, read, and experimented with that the Amian Blackguard could certainly use a little love. I do actually like the idea of making them CHA based for the purposes of their widgets. And... contrary to what was said earlier, not all BG's have 14 or higher CHA. I can think of two right off, that aren't that high at all.

Question... the widget that gives Natural Armor, that, I assume does not stack with say.. an amulet of natural armor, right?

I love the idea of Blackguard being a base class, but.. I fear we'd have a zillion blackguards running around then, which defeats the purpose. However, since Paladins do have to work up to the calling, making Paladin a PRC is intriguing, though that's another topic.

Quote:

I love the idea of Blackguard being a base class, but.. I fear we'd have a zillion blackguards running around then, which defeats the purpose.

What. Thiis doesn't make any sense.

This is going slightly ot, but I'd recommend changing the requirement to something more... logical I guess. 5 Ranks hide and cleave always seemed kinda odd to me.

Yeah, I don't think seeing an influx of blackguards would be the worst thing that could happen. We still want more evil on the server, right?

That said, I'm not so keen on seeing WIS lose its usefulness, mainly because my own blackguard has good WIS but not good CHA so they'd lose like half their class perks (which would make me sad). A better solution would be to add more benefits to both WIS and CHA, I think.

I still think that paladins are a much stronger class than blackguards, for reasons I stated above. Sneak attacks are nifty, but paladins make up for that through having more buffs to AB and damage (as well as the ability to use divine wands without UMD), and again, the epic summons range from good (LE) to utterly terrible (NE).

TormakSaber wrote:

Quote:

I love the idea of Blackguard being a base class, but.. I fear we'd have a zillion blackguards running around then, which defeats the purpose.

What. Thiis doesn't make any sense.

What I was saying is... ahh, hells, you're right. I think I meant to say everyone would be asking for rebuilds.... hrm, let's go with that story, yeah?

Well yes, when a class gets a critical rebuild there's an obligatory rebuild.

Making new (or old) classes behave as base-classes require client side hacks (not haks) because they are hardcoded.

Blackguard is a solid class for filling gaps in builds. Instead of going for heavy sneak attacks, you are able to trade for the full BAB progression blackguard has. You are also able to gain additional saves, AC, and damage from CHA based abilities. As well, if you invest enough points, you can take an epic summon. I think it is fair to say that blackguard is not a counterpart of another, it is a class all in itself. It provides diversity to many multi-class builds that do not want to take levels of paladin/cleric. There are many good builds out there that use blackguard levels, but most of them only take advantage of a certain aspect of the blackguard class. Rogue 21 Blackguard 4 Master Scout 5 is one that I can think of from the top of my head. It wouldn't be the most potent build out there, but you are able to get some nice perks like +9 saves on an epic dodge PC.

the builder in me looks at some of the flaws in blackguard and gets a little sick, the issue is that blackguard just isn't satisfying enough, there's no "this is the best it can be" in the blackguard, they get nothing truly special that is their own.

Demon Flesh
1 Blackguard level, 11 Wisdom
The caster grows the thick, leather flesh of a demon, granting a +1 natural armor bonus to Armor Class for every four caster levels (at least +1, maximum +4) for Turns/Level.

this will never compare to a +5 amulet, and is thus redundant and useless.

Veil of Shadow
3 Blackguard levels, 12 Wisdom
Swirling wisps of darkness obscure the caster's form, granting a 20% concealment bonus for Turns/Level.

that imp invis tho

Divine Favor
Starting at 10th level, a Blackguard gains the ability to cast Divine Favor.

their divine favor never reaches the truly absurd level of 21+ which is painful to me

in looking through their list of additions the only things i find that are truly marvelous is: abyssal might, corrupt weapon, unholy sword, and aura of despair (which is only really useful in dev crit builds, which are simply bad compared to their dex counterparts)
and the only one of those that's unique to the class is abyssal might(while retaining real value)!

As far as making BGs more attractive, I'd say maybe increase the number of uses on some of their widgets (and scale the effectiveness of some, like veil of shadow getting 50% conceal at level 16 or 20 BG, scaled down to 20% at 3 BG, etc, change Demon flesh to +1 natural AC/3 BG levels so that it maxes at 5/15. Maybe add in more options for the pet, such as undead minions or abyssal/infernal animals as well as fiends.

You're underrating demonflesh. BGs with their divine shield can easily surpass a reasonable threshold for defence. That free amulet slot can mean a lot of things - like that epic +saves scarab, however high it goes (5? or was it 6?). Sources of nat armour are few, after all (except barkskin, but that's way too ugly). I always considered it to be one of the better buffs.

That said. As I said in my first post in this thread... They could as well be made better.

That's still just one AC more than the bog-standard, widely available and cheap barkskin potion (or heck, the ring from the sewer quest). Easier to dispel, too.

I wrote:

(except barkskin, but that's way too ugly)

I didn't think demonflesh could be dispelled though. That should be changed.

Oh yeah, widget buffs are dispelled by a sneeze. Only exception is Corrupt Weapon/Unholy Sword, but only because weapons technically don't get targeted by dispels.

Speaking of, I'm fairly sure Unholy Sword doesn't give spell resistance like Holy Sword does.

Larsaan wrote:

Oh yeah, widget buffs are dispelled by a sneeze. Only exception is Corrupt Weapon/Unholy Sword, but only because weapons technically don't get targeted by dispels.

Speaking of, I'm fairly sure Unholy Sword doesn't give spell resistance like Holy Sword does.

I actually never had my widget buffs dispelled, and I did a lot of beholder farming back in the day when they were still on A. Widgets have a CL 30 for dispel purpose unless you have levels in a caster class and have a positive caster stat capable of supporting caster levels.

TormakSaber wrote:

Quote:

I love the idea of Blackguard being a base class, but.. I fear we'd have a zillion blackguards running around then, which defeats the purpose.

What. Thiis doesn't make any sense.

Also the main issue with changing Blackguard to a base class isn't that we'd have to many, but the fact that they would just be to different of a class from what they are now. It literally wouldn't be Blackguard anymore, but probably something like antipaladin instead.

While I think that would be pretty cool, I don't know that we as a server would even want a class like that. Blackguard on amia is unique, and has more features than I've seen on any other server.

Make the Blackguard Spell Widgets Charisma Based

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