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#StraightOutaAvernus
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 Posted: Thu, May 05 2016, 22:32 PM |
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Player
Joined: 10 Nov 2015
Location: WHY SHOULD I TELL YOU WHERE WHEN YOU'RE ABOUT TO DIE?! NGAAAAAAAAAH!!!!!
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At the risk of getting pelted out of the forums with dirty gym socks and rotten tomatoes, anyone with better ideas than I have on how one might make it not an objectively poor choice to nix monkey grip in a build that uses (or can be used with) a two hander weapon?
I'm thinking something along the lines of a reverse of the flavor penalties that monkey gripping gives upon receiving the epic weapon focus feat (and doing some good ol' RP to represent your advanced training with the weapon), but then -- I'm neither a coder, nor am I quite licensed to think of the implications that has on balance.
Just strikes me that the difference between a Greatsword wielder and, say, a Bastard Sword one is incredibly marginal for the loss of anywhere from 6 to 9 AC.
_________________ Playing: Tanar'i Shit Disturbers
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NinjaClarinet
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Posted: Fri, May 06 2016, 1:05 AM |
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Player
Joined: 12 Jul 2010
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Having parry grant +1 shield AC for every ten ranks (yes, still stacking with tumble) so long as your off-hand is empty (meaning working for two-handers and people using a single weapon without a shield) would be a good way to encourage those more flavorful styles without really breaking the game. You still don't get the full AC of the shield (because a shield can hold +4 more AC via enchantments) but it narrows the gap a teensy bit. Shield users should still be harder to hit.
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TormakSaber
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Posted: Fri, May 06 2016, 3:23 AM |
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Player
Joined: 16 Dec 2004
Location: Somewhere
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The classes and races that would most benefit from gaining AC from Parry due to using two handers do not generally have the skill points to spare on yet another essential skill dump beyond Discipline Tumble UMD Spot (possibly Hide Move Silent Listen Spellcraft Concentration Perform)
_________________
Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham
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NinjaClarinet
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Posted: Fri, May 06 2016, 3:37 AM |
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Player
Joined: 12 Jul 2010
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Min-maxed builds, sure. You can always take more intelligence if you want more skills. Sacrificing some of that STR for INT might make dev crit untenable, sure, but that's working as intended if you want to be a more well-rounded two-hander user.
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Gers
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Posted: Fri, May 06 2016, 3:44 AM |
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Player
Joined: 30 Apr 2005
Location: Kentucky, USA
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I could see it being viable if parry gave a different kind of AC than tumble. Shield instead of dodge, perhaps, as certain situations can impact dodge AC.
_________________  Named Most Influential Character, Amia Awards 2011
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Fighterlvl3
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Posted: Fri, May 06 2016, 4:54 AM |
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Player
Joined: 21 Apr 2016
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i think is kinda pointless to give two handers a little more ac, if you play one you aren´t thinking about defence. I would rather give some ab bonus to them
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Richard_Edmund
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Posted: Fri, May 06 2016, 6:22 AM |
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Player
Joined: 23 Sep 2012
Location: Western Australia (+8 GMT)
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If you are using a two hander, first thing you need to learn is how to deflect and parry blows otherwise your two handed career will be a very short lived one.
_________________
Elwyn Sabel - Laura Jarshall - Mordoc Ebonhand
Discord: Bhaalorian#5715
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TormakSaber
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Posted: Fri, May 06 2016, 7:33 AM |
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Player
Joined: 16 Dec 2004
Location: Somewhere
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NinjaClarinet wrote: Min-maxed builds, sure. You can always take more intelligence if you want more skills. Sacrificing some of that STR for INT might make dev crit untenable, sure, but that's working as intended if you want to be a more well-rounded two-hander user. I don't consider skipping out on the only reason to invest in STR in order to achieve still less AC than using a shield as tenable or working as intended. Nothing about getting the "privilege" of sinking 30 skill points into a worthless skill (tumble at least makes you AoO immune from movement which is actually pretty helpful.) for 3 AC makes it in any way shape or form on par with getting the only strength based epic feat in the game. That's putting in work for a feature no one will ever use - insulting to both players and the people who do the work.
_________________
Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham
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OpenTheRift
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Posted: Fri, May 06 2016, 8:04 AM |
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Joined: 17 Feb 2014
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Honestly Monkey Grip existing makes it a question as to why anyone would even use a single hand weapon when they can plan around getting Monkey Grip...
That aside parry to AC would make for some nifty WM 2-handers, which are bound to the weakest stat in the game (STR) so I would totally like to see something helping them out while also sticking it to the silly existence of monkey grip.
_________________
bad man
Last edited by OpenTheRift on Fri, May 06 2016, 20:12 PM, edited 1 time in total.
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Richard_Edmund
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Posted: Fri, May 06 2016, 10:23 AM |
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Player
Joined: 23 Sep 2012
Location: Western Australia (+8 GMT)
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OpenTheRift wrote: Honestly Monkey Grip existing makes it a question as to why anyone would even use a single hand weapon when they can plan around getting Monkey Grip... Because roleplay.
_________________
Elwyn Sabel - Laura Jarshall - Mordoc Ebonhand
Discord: Bhaalorian#5715
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Gravemaskin
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Posted: Fri, May 06 2016, 13:51 PM |
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Player
Joined: 29 Jul 2007
Location: Norway: Home of the Trolls
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I say allow two-handers that don't go monkey grip to request an extra 1d4 elemental damage and 1/2STRMOD of natural damage type the weapon has (so 14 strmod on a greatsword, +6 slashing damage per hit and 1d4 extra elemental damage) and/or allow them to request up to +6 AB on the weapon, same as monk gloves. (Thus making them one of a select few builds that can hammer trough +6 reductions)
This though a request similar to monkey grip, so you're still not getting it completely free but doing some RP towards it and around it which might hopefully spread to others.
The AC drop from not using a shield is still hurting you, but at least you're getting a damage boost as a reward for the character focusing on damage, making it much more viable from a pure build min/maxing perspective.
_________________
Adair - Druid and part time treant cosplayer
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That Guy
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Posted: Fri, May 06 2016, 14:19 PM |
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Player
Joined: 13 Nov 2014
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Richard_Edmund wrote: OpenTheRift wrote: Honestly Monkey Grip existing makes it a question as to why anyone would even use a single hand weapon when they can plan around getting Monkey Grip... Because roleplay. This and because Monkey Grip is stu---------. Not my cup of tea.
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Ts_
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Posted: Fri, May 06 2016, 14:28 PM |
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Player
Joined: 28 Jul 2008
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OpenTheRift wrote: Honestly Monkey Grip existing makes it a question as to why anyone would even use a single hand weapon when they can plan around getting Monkey Grip... What's so good about it? The stats seem fairly balanced on a bonded weapon and 13 DC can almost give you another really nice weapon. Regards Ts
_________________
Ralghok & Hazamir "The Weasel"
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Naivatkal
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Posted: Fri, May 06 2016, 18:45 PM |
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Joined: 26 May 2010
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The negatives really don't outweigh the benefits of MG, to be honest. -2 Ref or Will and -1 dmg all day every day in exchange for 1 extra mythal slot (over a onehander), higher damage, same AC, etc.
_________________
Whomst've'll'd'mn't I play:
Salema Nefahri :: A penny for your thots
Zrae'a'stra'fryn :: That which nightmares are made of
Khasir :: From the East a storm is coming
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#StraightOutaAvernus
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Posted: Sat, May 07 2016, 3:22 AM |
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Player
Joined: 10 Nov 2015
Location: WHY SHOULD I TELL YOU WHERE WHEN YOU'RE ABOUT TO DIE?! NGAAAAAAAAAH!!!!!
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OpenTheRift wrote: Honestly Monkey Grip existing makes it a question as to why anyone would even use a single hand weapon when they can plan around getting Monkey Grip... Naivatkal wrote: The negatives really don't outweigh the benefits of MG, to be honest. -2 Ref or Will and -1 dmg all day every day in exchange for 1 extra mythal slot (over a onehander), higher damage, same AC, etc. Considering the 'flavor penalties' involved in a monkey gripped weapon, there's actually next to 'no' compelling reason to bother with it over a scimitar or rapier unless you're a WM monkey gripping scythes. To the contrary, monkey grip is the RP choice. The most optimal non scythe two hander is a great sword, which is literally only 3 average damage more than a Scimitar by raw stats; and scimitar has an immense critrange. The rest: >Twobladed weapons are dual wield weapons with poor critrange, subpar damage roll stats, and no ability to switch to shield. >Halberd is a glorified bastard sword without the feats >Spear is the weapon you pick if you're not getting AC (or any other proficiencies) anyway >Greataxe inherits the "three more average damage" syndrome that great sword has -- but it's also on top of an axe critrange, making its damage average 'lol' Removing the 1.5x STR mod (which monkey grip does) effectively makes them just really heavy minimally better versions of the smaller weapons. Disarm spam arguably adds an AB boost utility to it; but in any situation that's useful, your opponent is likely capable of EDodging your attacks regardless. You also had to trade expertise for it, which means that EDodger can true strike you. I don't actually get the monkey grip hype. Seeing as I don't see any meme-tier dual wield scythes, probably not gonna get it either. vOv _________________ Playing: Tanar'i Shit Disturbers
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Fighterlvl3
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Posted: Sat, May 07 2016, 3:39 AM |
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Player
Joined: 21 Apr 2016
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you still have the extra mithral slot, and i think that the best thing is that you can switch between using your weapon two handed or with shield at the moment. But truly i don´t think is worth that much.
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Richard_Edmund
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Posted: Sat, May 07 2016, 6:18 AM |
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Player
Joined: 23 Sep 2012
Location: Western Australia (+8 GMT)
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Elwyn went from one handed to a two handed weapon. I can tell you for certain the damage difference is noticable even with MG's damage penalty. And that from the time she started using a greatsword, i inmediately began regretting the choice when I was 7 or 8 AC down. On paper it does not look so great, but applied it is certainly an awesome feat.
_________________
Elwyn Sabel - Laura Jarshall - Mordoc Ebonhand
Discord: Bhaalorian#5715
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Ts_
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Posted: Sat, May 07 2016, 9:09 AM |
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Player
Joined: 28 Jul 2008
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Maybe what's imbalanced about Monkey Grip is that it doesn't use up a feat.
So, what was this topic about again? Real two-handers ... I guess making them more damaging rather than giving them more defences is nice, flavourwise. Just giving them more mythal slots (that wouldn't be there on a MG weapon) might also help and not restrict the concept to damage.
Regards
Ts
_________________
Ralghok & Hazamir "The Weasel"
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Akhlys
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Posted: Sat, May 07 2016, 19:22 PM |
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Joined: 17 Feb 2015
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#StraightOutaAvernus wrote: OpenTheRift wrote: Honestly Monkey Grip existing makes it a question as to why anyone would even use a single hand weapon when they can plan around getting Monkey Grip... Naivatkal wrote: The negatives really don't outweigh the benefits of MG, to be honest. -2 Ref or Will and -1 dmg all day every day in exchange for 1 extra mythal slot (over a onehander), higher damage, same AC, etc. Considering the 'flavor penalties' involved in a monkey gripped weapon, there's actually next to 'no' compelling reason to bother with it over a scimitar or rapier unless you're a WM monkey gripping scythes. To the contrary, monkey grip is the RP choice. The most optimal non scythe two hander is a great sword, which is literally only 3 average damage more than a Scimitar by raw stats; and scimitar has an immense critrange. The rest: >Twobladed weapons are dual wield weapons with poor critrange, subpar damage roll stats, and no ability to switch to shield. >Halberd is a glorified bastard sword without the feats >Spear is the weapon you pick if you're not getting AC (or any other proficiencies) anyway >Greataxe inherits the "three more average damage" syndrome that great sword has -- but it's also on top of an axe critrange, making its damage average 'lol' Removing the 1.5x STR mod (which monkey grip does) effectively makes them just really heavy minimally better versions of the smaller weapons. Disarm spam arguably adds an AB boost utility to it; but in any situation that's useful, your opponent is likely capable of EDodging your attacks regardless. You also had to trade expertise for it, which means that EDodger can true strike you. I don't actually get the monkey grip hype. Seeing as I don't see any meme-tier dual wield scythes, probably not gonna get it either. vOv Great sword has more damage in the base damage of the weapon and it has higher damage between the enchantments on the epic weapon drops. There's a significant damage boost. _________________ Ｍ Ａ Ｉ Ｔ Ｉ
Ｔ Ａ Ｔ Ｕ
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Naivatkal
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Posted: Sat, May 07 2016, 19:34 PM |
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Joined: 26 May 2010
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Yeah MG greatswords still output more damage than my scimitar WM. This is accounting for both swords having the same enchantments, both chars being WMs, and both chars having 38 STR.
_________________
Whomst've'll'd'mn't I play:
Salema Nefahri :: A penny for your thots
Zrae'a'stra'fryn :: That which nightmares are made of
Khasir :: From the East a storm is coming
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#StraightOutaAvernus
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Posted: Sat, May 07 2016, 19:59 PM |
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Player
Joined: 10 Nov 2015
Location: WHY SHOULD I TELL YOU WHERE WHEN YOU'RE ABOUT TO DIE?! NGAAAAAAAAAH!!!!!
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Huh.
See, I didn't know that the actual damage of the strongest available variants was 'also' better.
How much better though? There is a threshold you've gotta hit for individual hit damage for it to actually outpace the crit threat difference.
Unless that's FOIG for this discussion, obviously.
What usually ends up in that spare mythal slot, as an aside? And are we factoring GMW as a possibility in, in the case of either weapon? It 'does' make sense that a monkey gripped weapon'd be better, in an RP sense, so I ain't gonna complain there. However, it 'does' end up relevant to this discussion -- for a simple reason: If there's 'too' much an edge to monkey grip, the gap between actual two hand and sword-and-board is even smaller.
_________________ Playing: Tanar'i Shit Disturbers
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Richard_Edmund
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Posted: Sat, May 07 2016, 20:19 PM |
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Player
Joined: 23 Sep 2012
Location: Western Australia (+8 GMT)
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Most people I know add +5 Attack Bonus and +4 enchantment to their weapon. It's partially why two handers are still viable over one-handers.
Unless you're referring to the shield, that then depends upon individual gearing requirements. Elwyn uses a Triad Shield.
_________________
Elwyn Sabel - Laura Jarshall - Mordoc Ebonhand
Discord: Bhaalorian#5715
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#StraightOutaAvernus
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Posted: Sat, May 07 2016, 23:46 PM |
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Player
Joined: 10 Nov 2015
Location: WHY SHOULD I TELL YOU WHERE WHEN YOU'RE ABOUT TO DIE?! NGAAAAAAAAAH!!!!!
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Richard_Edmund wrote: Most people I know add +5 Attack Bonus and +4 enchantment to their weapon. It's partially why two handers are still viable over one-handers.
Unless you're referring to the shield, that then depends upon individual gearing requirements. Elwyn uses a Triad Shield. <_< Essentially -- picking a weapon over the weaker version of something a GMW scroll can do? I mean- I 'get it', but why. (Keep in mind that when an AB boost and an enhancement bonus are on a weapon at once, the highest one overlaps. So that's +5 AB and +4 dmg) _________________ Playing: Tanar'i Shit Disturbers
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TormakSaber
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Posted: Sun, May 08 2016, 3:16 AM |
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Player
Joined: 16 Dec 2004
Location: Somewhere
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Finding a significant and consistent quantity of GMW scrolls is a massive pain in the ass -and even among people who do use them, you always carry a backup.
_________________
Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham
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Fighterlvl3
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Posted: Mon, May 09 2016, 22:35 PM |
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Joined: 21 Apr 2016
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marginally better damage over a scimitar is quite ugly for the 8 ac invesment. Maybe if power attack worked better with 2 handed it would worth it. Having Power attack with no penalty when wielding a weapon with 2 hands and improved power attack with only -5 ab would rock.
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#StraightOutaAvernus
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Posted: Wed, May 11 2016, 21:46 PM |
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Player
Joined: 10 Nov 2015
Location: WHY SHOULD I TELL YOU WHERE WHEN YOU'RE ABOUT TO DIE?! NGAAAAAAAAAH!!!!!
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What if they had their STR mod multiplier apply to AB?
Or am I completely insane <_<
Max AB bonus from that would be pretty much equivalent to the amount of AC you loose (6-8) -- which, since the amount of AC you'll be rocking is somewhere in the 40 to 50s range tops (literally reliably touchable in head-on-head rogue combat)? Marginally evens the investment.
Plus, given the fickle nature of AB, it wouldn't stack with true strikes without some serious code legwork.
_________________ Playing: Tanar'i Shit Disturbers
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TormakSaber
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Posted: Thu, May 12 2016, 20:06 PM |
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Player
Joined: 16 Dec 2004
Location: Somewhere
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That's ridiculously overpowered - you could run Improved Power Attack with no penalty and still chug True Strike to get more.
_________________
Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham
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Darkblade
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Posted: Thu, May 12 2016, 20:39 PM |
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Player
Joined: 14 Aug 2006
Location: Belgium
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Loosing 8 Ac is Painful , on the other hand don't forget they already improved two handed weapons,Other then adding even more damage and improved crit damage, i have no answer here
High AC/AB is the thing in nwn , it honestly wont Mather if your scythe WM can do 280 dmg if he can't survive a Tier four spawn without drinking heal pots
While that same WM build with a scimitar Can do it without much damage even considering it will take him 25% longer
Back in the old days using improved expertise on a 2-hander went a long way, Mobs have gotten tons stronger since then do.
_________________
Plays:
Ragnar Ungorn
Hasam Alrab
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OpenTheRift
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Posted: Thu, May 12 2016, 23:03 PM |
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Joined: 17 Feb 2014
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accounting for true strike is silly in and of itself, otherwise i don't think adding AB is the way to augment this dilemma. I'd be down for removing/mitigating the penalty that 2h weapons receive when using power attack / imp power attack. Something like (power attack) -2ab/+5dmg, (Improved power attack) -5ab/+10dmg
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bad man
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Uberuce
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Posted: Fri, May 13 2016, 22:47 PM |
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Player
Joined: 11 Nov 2005
Location: Near the bar.
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Monkey Grip was a mistake from day one, said a man comfortable expressing opinions as facts. Burn all the characters who have it, force their families to piss on the ashes and then you can balance the big lovely things.
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OpenTheRift
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Posted: Sat, May 14 2016, 2:19 AM |
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Joined: 17 Feb 2014
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Uberuce wrote: Monkey Grip was a mistake from day one, said a man comfortable expressing opinions as facts. Burn all the characters who have it, force their families to piss on the ashes and then you can balance the big lovely things. preach
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bad man
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Darkblade
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Posted: Sat, May 14 2016, 6:29 AM |
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Joined: 14 Aug 2006
Location: Belgium
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Uberuce wrote: Monkey Grip was a mistake from day one, said a man comfortable expressing opinions as facts. Burn all the characters who have it, force their families to piss on the ashes and then you can balance the big lovely things. And that's why we love you Even do i don't agree with you , unless there is a proper replacement ofcourse I'm rather KEEN (get it?) on hearing your solution Ruce !
_________________
Plays:
Ragnar Ungorn
Hasam Alrab
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Mikaz
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Posted: Thu, Jun 30 2016, 17:30 PM |
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Player
Joined: 17 May 2005
Location: Somewhere deep in Finland.
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I'm a bit late to this discussion, but wanted to share my thoughts on this anyway.
As important as AC is, I don't believe giving some kind of AC boost to two-handers is the solution here. Maybe we could decrease the AC increase from shields? Even plainly remove AC type: Shield, leaving shields with only 1-3 AC boost + enchantments.
Another thing I think would be a small, but significant improvement would be increasing Str to Dmg modifier from 1.5 to 2.0. This combined with Warforged weapons and the extra mythal slot would make two-handers interesting choice compared to the usual Scimitar/Shield combo.
I agree with Uce about Monkey-grip being a mistake. In its current form Monkey-grip is -the- final form of Two-hander builds.. Which is wrong because it needs Dreamcoins to happen and also forces anyone who wanted their char to just use a Two-hander, but also be efficient in PvP or PvM to go for it.
The penalties for Monkey-gripping should be way more severe than -2 Fort/Reflex, if it was something like -2 AB and -4 Dex(Combined with the Str mod changing from 1.5 to 1.0) people might actually consider if it's worth it, instead of just considering it as cheap AC + Shield Enchants.
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TormakSaber
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Posted: Thu, Jun 30 2016, 19:04 PM |
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Joined: 16 Dec 2004
Location: Somewhere
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Removing Shield enhancement would critically destroy every STR build in existence and skyrocket dex builds to S+ tier. STR would no longer have a reason to exist.
_________________
Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham
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#StraightOutaAvernus
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Posted: Fri, Jul 01 2016, 15:18 PM |
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Player
Joined: 10 Nov 2015
Location: WHY SHOULD I TELL YOU WHERE WHEN YOU'RE ABOUT TO DIE?! NGAAAAAAAAAH!!!!!
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Echoing Tormak.
Let's keep the discussion to purely viable changes.
I am wondering if it'd be possible, with that said, to outright add shield AC as an option to mythal on to large weapons.
Shield AC doesn't stack upon itself, so anyone that did this to benefit from that AC outside of Monkeygrip while still 'having' monkey grip would only gain 3 AC between the two modes.
+ given GMW scrolls are a thing, and that way it's a difference of 3~ AC instead of literally 8; it's neither a huge face punch to one handers (the tradeoff of 3 AC and a 18-20 critrange for a few more STR damage is still not a straight out upgrade), nor does it leave two handing an abysmal trade (wielding a two hander would then be viable as 'just' a two hander, assuming you were willing to buy the scrolls + had a supplier).
_________________ Playing: Tanar'i Shit Disturbers
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Richard_Edmund
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Posted: Fri, Jul 01 2016, 17:05 PM |
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Player
Joined: 23 Sep 2012
Location: Western Australia (+8 GMT)
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It should also be noted the lack of Mythal Sloths available on a shield, and a complete lack of epic shields in general. The best shield to actually MG with is in the 4th tier loot bin and can't be mythalled.
_________________
Elwyn Sabel - Laura Jarshall - Mordoc Ebonhand
Discord: Bhaalorian#5715
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TormakSaber
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Posted: Fri, Jul 01 2016, 19:18 PM |
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Player
Joined: 16 Dec 2004
Location: Somewhere
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Quote: I am wondering if it'd be possible, with that said, to outright add shield AC as an option to mythal on to large weapons This isn't doable, from what I understand of how AC types and item types function, but I'm not 100%.
_________________
Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham
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Naivatkal
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Posted: Fri, Jul 01 2016, 20:13 PM |
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Joined: 26 May 2010
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Richard_Edmund wrote: It should also be noted the lack of Mythal Sloths available on a shield, and a complete lack of epic shields in general. The best shield to actually MG with is in the 4th tier loot bin and can't be mythalled. How is that any different from one handers? TormakSaber wrote: Quote: I am wondering if it'd be possible, with that said, to outright add shield AC as an option to mythal on to large weapons This isn't doable, from what I understand of how AC types and item types function, but I'm not 100%. I think you're right. Pretty sure someone else has said that, too.
_________________
Whomst've'll'd'mn't I play:
Salema Nefahri :: A penny for your thots
Zrae'a'stra'fryn :: That which nightmares are made of
Khasir :: From the East a storm is coming
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Dark Immolation
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Posted: Fri, Jul 01 2016, 21:06 PM |
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Tester
Joined: 20 Apr 2008
Location: The downeaster "Alexa"
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We can't go into baseitems.2da and modify AC_Enchant for weapons? I'm not sure if that works, but I thought that was what determines the type of AC an item gives. If so, that is at least a possibility when it comes to mitigating what AC twohanders miss out on. You'll miss out on the base 1-3 AC a shield will give, but if you're willing to spend your spare slot on defense rather than something else, there you go. If not, I do like the idea of Parry giving AC per 10 ranks when using a two-hander, items included. Base 30 Skill + 50 from items = +8 AC, same as a +5 tower shield. But of course, like it was said, most of the classes that would benefit from Parry giving AC don't have the skillpoints to go for that. In a way, I feel for that, but on the other hand, it makes a good case for going beyond the bare bones for Expertise and making it a round 14 Int. A slightly more intelligent fighter gets rewarded rather than being a gimmic. You get your Discipline, Spot, Tumble, and use the extra one Parry, where your comparatively egghead weaponmaster stands out among his peers. As much as I've liked that idea, my real fear is what Dexers could do with the extra source of AC. Granted, there are no two-handed dex weapons(though am argument could be made for two-sided weapons and q-staff deserving to be finesseable). But even without that, it begs the question why couldn't you benefit from Parry using a one-handed weapon an no shield? That's what a Fencer archetype character would be all about. I can't think of a good answer, besides balance. The alternative I come up with is that you only get the highest AC from either your Parry rank while wielding two-handers or your Tumble rank while wielding anything else. That removes at least a partial need for meleers to dump for Tumble, though Evasion will always be worth it. But at least Parry AC will stack from items, meaning that you won't have to invest as many because you can tag some skill bonuses onto your gear and make up for it. Then again, it's not like meleers have that many extra slots... I think we could make it more enticing though by doing something like letting Parry also give you 5% Concealment per 10 Ranks as well. Concealment is something meleers can't get without external help usually, and even a little bit helps. Two-hander with 20 ranks of parry between your skill and your items? Congrats, you no long need to waste money on Ghost potions. Go the full nine yards and get ~80 between your skills and items? You don't have to dump for Tumble, and while you're still essentially as squishy as before(a two-hander with tumble-dump), you've got 40% Concealment to make up for it. If that's too much, I think it would also be possible to make the Concealment only apply to the current/last attacker, so a two-hander parry-er can do work in a duel, but still doesn't steal the show by wading into a throng of enemies like a board-n-sword PC can. TL;DR Quote: There might be a way to do the Shield AC thing via baseitems.2da, someone more familiar with it please check it out.
Parry to AC is a great idea, but becomes problematic when you allow it to Dexers.
If no answer can be found to the previous issue, I would propose the same 10 Parry -> 1 AC, but not stacking with Tumble. But additionally, Parry gives 5% Concealment per 10 Ranks, possibly only towards one enemy at a time. _________________  You think Magic is your ally... but you merely adopted the Art. He was born in it. Molded by it.
Sometimes, an angel is simply a devil with better intentions.
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