Clerics suck at dispelling others, and many cleric builds do not have UMD - most melee builds incorporate UMD in some fashion via rogue or bard. Meleers are better at dispelling, on average, because of the availability of scrolls and popularity of UMD, than clerics are. Eww.
In order to be able to do that, I'd have to rebuild my character and drop his level of ranger, losing a bonus epic feat in exchange for UMD. That's gross. He also actually makes use of that level of ranger in other ways (dual wielding, sneaking, etc.)
Greater Dispelling has no use against casters, or against characters who have no caster levels but drink potions, because we don't even have spell breach or greater spell breach - the caster level for a potion drunk by someone with no caster levels, I have heard many times, is maxxed out. So we can't dispel anybody except like... Pale Masters. Maybe. Greater Dispelling has an absurd cap on the caster's CL for dispel checks, compared to what people have on Amia.
I suggest we get either Greater Spell Breach, or Mordenkainen's Disjunction, added to our spellbook, pl0x. I'd be fine with regular Spell Breach even, if people think Greater Spell Breach would be too broken for clerics to have. Just... Something please. I've literally never been able to dispel anybody on my epic cleric.
New Spell updates - Entropic Shield: Each Spell Focus adds 10% concealment vs ranged attacks Remove Fear: Epic Spell Focus grants Immunity to Fear for the duration Lesser dispel: Each Spell Focus adds +2 to the CL cap of the dispel check. Dispel magic: Each Spell Focus adds +2 to the CL cap of the dispel check. Wounding whispers: There were some bugs left in by Bioware that have been fixed. The damage is now rolled for each attack as opposed to once at spell cast. It calculates damage for Empowered and Maximized versions of the spell. Dismissal: Removed the stray +6 to DC that Bioware included for some unknown reason. Greater dispelling: +2 CL to dispel check cap per Spell Focus Aura versus alignment: Both good and evil versions become a Divine damage shield and that the damage shield is 1d6 + 1/2 CL. SR is equal to 13 + CL, with each Spell Focus adding +2 more to the SR vs alignment.
_________________ Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham
Greater dispel with epic focus its now 1d20+21 vs dc 42 (30 or 0 caster levels). Errr. That doesnt work unless im reading the wiki wrong.
Frankly it only affects none pure build casters
And I have to use 3 feats to even get to that point? In a school I don't otherwise care about?
That's atrocious, Tormak, lol.
I'm not saying we necessarily have to be as good as mages at dispelling; maybe give us greater spell breach as an 8th level spell or something. I dunno. But we need to be able to do it.
Joined: 23 Sep 2012 Location: Western Australia (+8 GMT)
Harm is a melee touch attack (On a cleric) that's susceptible to spell resistance. Haven lasts five rounds (Can't be extended) and is strictly usable to cast buffs. And Ruin is available to any caster with enough Spellcraft, not just clerics.
_________________ Elwyn Sabel - Laura Jarshall - Mordoc Ebonhand
Clerics have the best cold and hot opens to fights on the entire server. Arcane casters dispel better. These things are called "niches", generally, and certain classes carve them out in order to differentiate themselves.
Arcane casters don't get access to Haven and Greater Restoration, or Word of Faith, or Earthquake, or Harm.
_________________ Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham
(PS: If you're only using Haven to buff, you're missing out on a lot of what Haven can do. Hasted movement, can drop it whenever you need, and when you cast hostile spells from it, you're not revealed until the damage actually hits, which means you can drop Ruin and Harm and not be revealed until they both slam in simultaneously. Or hellball/Ruin. Or whatever, you know.)
_________________ Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham
Drink a mind blank and bubbly, you are now immune to 90% of pvp spells on the server. Arcanists can fix that problem and follow up with Fear or something. Or they can use Bigby's to immobilize people. Clerics have to hope people have low reflex and use EQ.
It's not "Arcanists dispel better". It's "Arcanists dispel". I have a caster level of 15 when dispelling with Greater Dispelling. That dispels NOTHING. I can't rebuild and switch 3 feats out just to make it 21, but if I did, I'd still be fucked, because anybody with a CL of 20+ or 0 (re: every build with cleric/wizard/sorcerer or nearly every melee build) would require me to, at best, roll an 11 to successfully dispel something. The DC is 12 + CL. My CL is 15 unless I invest 3 feats, at which point it's 21.
Just give me regular spell breach and I'll be satisfied that I'm not practically nullified by 2 potions (or a spell mantle scroll). Granted, EQ rocks, but decent reflex, or IE, and it's not reliable enough to be the only way to pvp someone who knows to drink those 2 potions (which is an increasing number of people.)
Drink a mind blank and bubbly, you are now immune to 90% of pvp spells on the server.
Not true.
MisterLich wrote:
Arcanists can fix that problem and follow up with Fear or something. Or they can use Bigby's to immobilize people. Clerics have to hope people have low reflex and use EQ.
You can also buff up and attack and hit harder then almost anyone. "Clericzilla" is a thing. You can also use domains to get access to fun spells like horrid wilting that target other saves. Other people also won't know you can do this until you drop it on them.
MisterLich wrote:
It's not "Arcanists dispel better". It's "Arcanists dispel". I have a caster level of 15 when dispelling with Greater Dispelling. That dispels NOTHING. I can't rebuild and switch 3 feats out just to make it 21, but if I did, I'd still be fucked, because anybody with a CL of 20+ or 0 (re: every build with cleric/wizard/sorcerer or nearly every melee build) would require me to, at best, roll an 11 to successfully dispel something. The DC is 12 + CL. My CL is 15 unless I invest 3 feats, at which point it's 21.
Yeah arcanists dispel. It's their gimmick. You also could put one level into a UMD class and get disjoin scrolls. You opted not to do that yourself.
MisterLich wrote:
Just give me regular spell breach and I'll be satisfied that I'm not practically nullified by 2 potions (or a spell mantle scroll). Granted, EQ rocks, but decent reflex, or IE, and it's not reliable enough to be the only way to pvp someone who knows to drink those 2 potions (which is an increasing number of people.)
No. And you're right it isn't the only way to pvp someone that drinks potions. So use other ways. You have a huge spell list that via domains is super flexable.
Joined: 23 Sep 2012 Location: Western Australia (+8 GMT)
aida wrote:
Can't you get lesser spell breach wands, and scrolls?
They only work if you have UMD or a class that can cast those spells.
As far as I'm aware, the only non-UMD Spell Breach/Mantle is the Greater Tome of Mystra.
And Domains are not 'flexible'. If you want a certain domain, you're forced to follow a certain deity and your second domain has to match that deity as well.
Quote:
Aren't potions easily dispelled by a normal greater dispel a cleric has?
Only if you have less than 24 levels in any given class. Otherwise you're immune, assuming you don't take 1 caster class on an otherwise non-caster PC.
_________________ Elwyn Sabel - Laura Jarshall - Mordoc Ebonhand
If you have 0 caster levels, potions/scrolls/etc. have the CL maxxed out for their effect, as far as dispelling is concerned.
If you have caster levels in that class, it uses your caster level for dispelling.
The only build I can think of with low caster level enough to be reliably dispelled by Greater Dispel is an Arcane Archer.
Commie wrote:
Not true.
Citation needed. Harm? Cut down to half efficacy, and most people succeed on the fortitude save anyway - so that's not really as OP as some people like to think, considering it puts me in melee range too. Hammer of the Gods? No daze. Negative Energy Burst? Half damage & no strength damage, making it useless. Storm of Vengeance, even, a 9th level spell? Chug a potion and you're good to go, my friend! (This is the only reason we can reliably even do Fire Giants lol. Damn you, witches..!)
Commie wrote:
Clericzilla
A caster cleric cannot buff themselves up to hit harder than everybody else just by buffs alone and not by build. That's stupid. Go build a cleric with 23+ caster levels, and have them fight Frugdar using only melee attacks. I'll be waiting.
Commie wrote:
Yeah arcanists dispel. It's their gimmick. *stuff about UMD*
UMD is irrelevant, we are talking about clerics being unable to dispel here. You don't fix a class by telling someone to take a different class. *slaps* Dispelling is not a gimmick, it is a basic function of casters. Druids can get away with not having it because they're shapeshifters and most people just play shifter anyway if they're going druid.
Commie wrote:
Domains and stuff
You're suggesting I pick new domains? Or pick domains and deity just to get a few spells that bypass the whole two potions thing? That's pretty silly. Domains are picked to align with the deity, and you can't change them when picked. I would not build a cleric and pick a deity just to have access to domains I like, just to get better at pvp. I enjoy pvp but that's going way too far into the "roleplay, not roll play" category.
Your stance on domains right there also suggests you need to worship a certain deity and have certain domains to be good at pvp. Which, well, is bad. To be an effective caster, I should not have to hamstring myself into a few deities, on a class based around deity worship. That's stifling and not balanced.
Other ways to pvp: EQ, Implosion.
Implosion: Everybody has high fortitude. Literally never had Implosion work on anybody before. I also haven't tried against -everybody-, but I've tried against quite a few.
EQ: Yup, EQ is a great one-button win, if they have neither decent reflex (only need about 28 to have the possibility of survival with a normal cleric), nor IE, which is on gear still. I realize IE is being removed from gear, which is fantastic, so this is not a perpetual issue - but seriously, 28 reflex vs spells is not hard to achieve.
A caster cleric has not got high STR, no weapon specialization, no WM feats, no epic weapon feats (overwhelming/dev crit, epic weapon specialization, epic weapon focus, epic prowess), and not even improved critical. To suggest that a caster cleric can buff themselves and wade into melee with a fighter/rogue/WM (as an example) who has either chugged the two potions or used a spell mantle scroll, is ludicrous. You will be completely annihilated.
And we also have Arcane Defiance gear casting Lesser Spell Mantle now, so... I love that on Frugdar honestly, but that exacerbates the problem of "resisting most cleric magic that is effective in pvp is super easy and there's no way to stop it or counter it". Spell Breach. Gimme.
Misterlich wrote: A caster cleric cannot buff themselves up to hit harder than everybody else just by buffs alone and not by build. That's stupid. Go build a cleric with 23+ caster levels, and have them fight Frugdar using only melee attacks. I'll be waiting.
Okay.. I'll bite.
I have a cleric with 23 caster levels.
Let's see... I'm guessing Frug has 44 AC? 48 AB + whatever rage he is using. I'm guessing you'd go for Ferocity... that would be... 5 attacks per round and more damage.
Okay, my cleric can get to 71 AC, and with that AC, has a 47 AB. Plus Imp inviso gives 50% miss chance and battletide would reduce your AB and saves by 2. Also, a damage aura that would do D6 +11 damage if you managed to hit him. He also has 5 attacks per round. He hits with.... D8+D10+15 physical damage, D10 elemental damage, 7 magical, and 9 divine each time he does hit.
Roughly 400 hp too. Also has 41 fort save and discipline in the 80's
Now, I can reduce the AC to 66 and get a 52 AB if I don't use expertise, but you have a shot at hitting me then.
Also of note: None of those abilities used UMD. Those are all cast by his own spells and domains. If I used some other trinkets and widets, could get higher. If I used scrolls, potions, etc, could get more protections. And, yes, I'd drink a mindblank before fighting Frug. Everyone has those.
Clerics do not need to dispel, they just kill you.
Not having UMD is a build choice, it doesn't "fuck you over", it makes your character different. If we start giving every class you play every ability you want, every class will be the same, which is not how D&D or NWN, or Amia is intended.
UMD is irrelevant, we are talking about clerics being unable to dispel here. You don't fix a class by telling someone to take a different class. *slaps* Dispelling is not a gimmick, it is a basic function of casters. Druids can get away with not having it because they're shapeshifters and most people just play shifter anyway if they're going druid.
I'm a purist level 30 druid as are some others. My greater dispell works decently for area spells and is useful on lower level opponents. It's not something I cast in PvP though, but druids like clerics aren't meant to be dispelling machines. They don't have the same ties to the arcane that wizards and sorcerers do. If clerics could do everything arcanists do on top of being healers, good meleers, and good area spellers, that'd be wildly unfair.
MisterLich wrote:
EQ: Yup, EQ is a great one-button win, if they have neither decent reflex (only need about 28 to have the possibility of survival with a normal cleric), nor IE, which is on gear still. I realize IE is being removed from gear, which is fantastic, so this is not a perpetual issue - but seriously, 28 reflex vs spells is not hard to achieve.
The DC for my druid's EQ is 38. Against a reflex of 28, that's a good 1 in 2 chance it'll be effective. You can't expect the world to always guarantee you a 95% chance of success every single time. Spells are often a roll of the dice, and you just have to accept that. Plus, clerics have far more options for area effecting spells. Druids can attack reflex, but they're not particularly good at any others.
A cleric can attack reflex with earthquake, fortitude with implosion, and will with word of faith. All of which I'll add are evocation spells, so you only need to take one line of spell focus to boost them significantly.
--------------------
As for having to take at least just one level of bard or rogue to get access to UMD, that's not much to ask -IF- you're trying to have a character with a wider range of talents. Just because you don't want to do that doesn't mean we should concede to your demands and make cleric wildly over powered.
Yes, that's a matter of opinion, but quite frankly, I think it's the majority opinion.
_________________
Account moved to LeathanKayne. Delen and Fosco will see ya on that one! (If you PM me on this, I likely won't see it for a long time >.>)
You have to have ranks in UMD for that to work, like Spellcraft.
Clerics definitely do not need Mord's or Breach. They are meant to bring divine ass kickings to the heretics, not strip all da sepllz. Also, I'm curious how many of the cleric builds don't have UMD when the majority of the good builds have monk or bard levels and do take at least a little UMD for flexibility.
_________________ Whomst've'll'd'mn't I play: Salema Nefahri::A penny for your thots Zrae'a'stra'fryn::That which nightmares are made of Khasir::From the East a storm is coming
*Shakes fist at Naivatkal for answering the UMD thing first*
Naivatkal wrote:
Also, I'm curious how many of the cleric builds don't have UMD when the majority of the good builds have monk or bard levels and do take at least a little UMD for flexibility.
Some of us like to have maximum possible caster level and other bonuses that come with having a purist character. My two favourite characters are a purist level 30 monk and a purist level 30 druid :3. Admittedly though, cleric is a class well suited to multiclassing.
_________________
Account moved to LeathanKayne. Delen and Fosco will see ya on that one! (If you PM me on this, I likely won't see it for a long time >.>)
Drink a mind blank and bubbly, you are now immune to 90% of pvp spells on the server. Arcanists can fix that problem and follow up with Fear or something. Or they can use Bigby's to immobilize people. Clerics have to hope people have low reflex and use EQ. )
im sorry but thats bs, the best pvp spells are by far spells that are not blockable by bubbly and mind blank, that you dont know them, only speaks to your lack of reading through spells and diversifying, perhaps you should spend some time in your spellbook, clerics and druids are by far far far the best pvp class there is, they dont need buffs.
_________________ -Ja'acira Arrows'R'Us -Balorin Wolfhammer- A dwarf so old he remember when the Beer stein was invented Saisha Jai'diem Knight of bahamut, and abit of a looker
Just for shits and giggles, I figured out a cleric with no fighter levels, and 10 STR. This character ends with 26 base Wis, so they get a respectable 38 wis fully geared out.
HP: 326 easily... can go as high as 416 though AB: Standard cleric buffs +36, add in the bells and whistles and running lights, it's now 49. Not the greatest ever, but, good enough to hit most anything. Oh, add in warcry for another +2. AC: Standard cleric buffs, it's 54. With Divine Shield, it's 64. Sure, Expertise, Improved Expertise, Mage Armor, Haste, and it's 79. All saves should be around 35, except reflex, but that can be raised to 30 or so.
Perhaps not the "most amazing powerbuild" ever, but it shows that even with a 10 base STR, and maxed WIS at 38, a cleric can be a potent melee'er.
The starting stats were: 10 STR 8 DEX 10 CON 16 WIS 14 INT 16 CHA
Draw your own conclusions, but... giving them mords or any better dispelling to me is a mistake. Pretty damn powerful as they are.
Given that lesser spell breach is readily available and spammable on a wand itd hardly be game changing to give it to clerics and druids at the cost of a spell slot.
Lesser breach also doesnt use CL making it just as effective on a wand as when casted.
Really this would just help to lessen the rather large gap between a UMDer and a non UMDer as UMD (and tumble) are generally considered the most useful/OP skills
Tristen, I specifically said that you have to build a cleric specifically to be a great meleer; you can't JUST do it with buffs.
Expertise/Improved Expertise/Divine Shield/high charisma are all build related, not every cleric does this. You also continually use domain-specific spells which is ignorant, not every cleric has access to a specific domain, and as said before, suggesting that they choose deity/domain, considering that is the core of the RP for the class, just because they want specific pvp abilities, is stupid for an RP server.
On my character, I can use every single cleric buff he has and achieve 42 AB, and that's it. I mitigate this by having HiPS, which is nifty. But I cannot wade into melee combat and slay everyone I see.
My AC, if I switched out my gear to be AC-focused, would reach 58 max.
I am not asking for Mord's necessarily, even the regular spell breach, which just removes 2 wards, would not break the game and be pretty useful.
If those are the best you can achieve, yet I showed you how a cleric can easily achieve higher... well, maybe you aren't using the class to it's best ability.
Also.... my last post did not use domain specific spells or abilities. So... please, don't fucking call ME ignorant.
Last edited by That Guy on Wed, Jul 20 2016, 18:11 PM, edited 1 time in total.
Didn't call you ignorant mate, said that including build-specific things like domain spells in certain domains was ignorant. And it is. Not every cleric is a worshipper of the same deity.
Saying 'I built a char that's not great at melee so you should give all clerics access to this arcane spell' is not a point to balance on. Clerics don't need that boost given to them, and if someone builds a subpar cleric (I have one that is still pretty good even being subpar) the onus is on them; same goes for building any subpar character. I'm confused how you only get 42 AB anyways unless you have only 8 STR/DEX (Divine Power, Bless, Aid, Battletide, +5 weapon add up to 42 AB; though Divine Favor should give you up to +5 more...), which, I mean, hey that's how the char is built.
In essence, you get what you build and saying 'hey this build style is subpar so let's give it spells' is no way to balance things. The bottom line is all clerics don't need breaches or mords, that's the realm of mages. Unless we're going to give mages Magic Vestment and Shield of Faith as well.
Also, let's chillax peoples.
_________________ Whomst've'll'd'mn't I play: Salema Nefahri::A penny for your thots Zrae'a'stra'fryn::That which nightmares are made of Khasir::From the East a storm is coming
Saying 'I built a char that's not great at melee so you should give all clerics access to this arcane spell' is not a point to balance on. Clerics don't need that boost given to them, and if someone builds a subpar cleric (I have one that is still pretty good even being subpar) the onus is on them; same goes for building any subpar character. I'm confused how you only get 42 AB anyways unless you have only 8 STR/DEX (Divine Power, Bless, Aid, Battletide, +5 weapon add up to 42 AB; though Divine Favor should give you up to +5 more...), which, I mean, hey that's how the char is built.
In essence, you get what you build and saying 'hey this build style is subpar so let's give it spells' is no way to balance things. The bottom line is all clerics don't need breaches or mords, that's the realm of mages. Unless we're going to give mages Magic Vestment and Shield of Faith as well.
That Guy, you even included Divine Shield in a build with 10 strength. Go take a chill pill and don't just quote other people's entire posts thinking it adds anything or improves your clout. Chill and re-read what you and I posted. I didn't attack you personally, even once.
Naivatkal, your argument is understandable, but what is defined as subpar then for clerics? I don't think my build is subpar at all given it's performance, I do think this is a glaring weakness for clerics however.
Also I think my character sheet is reporting my AB wrong, I just did the math and yeah, 42 should not be what I get for AB. I will have to test this against monsters later.
I will think on your post, do some testing and see if I have a counter argument for my position.
Divine shield is a very common Cleric ability. No special domains required.
You're right - I was referring to War Cry mentioned in your post, which I just assumed was some domain you were considering. I know it's also on an item available in the module (wait, is it still available? I actually don't know, haven't grabbed one in a while.)
Divine Shield requires 13 strength though mate.
Anyway, haven't tested yet, got other RL things to do first.
It's possible for a cleric from buffs alone to reach the AB cap of +20 enhancement:
+5 From GMW +5 From Divine Power +5 From Divine Favor +2 from Battletide +1 from bless +1 from aid +1 from prayer
GMW, Bless, and Aid have more than round/level durations, so that's +7 that lasts a long time there.
If you factor in a cleric with 14 STR (note you need 13 for the prereqs of divine might and shield, so 14 isn't that far off the mark), weapon focus, and epic weapon focus, with a 16 BAB, you get:
16+5+3+8+20 = 52 AB
Which certainly isn't bad, you can push it even higher by pumping your STR score and/or epic prowess. Granted, when building, you'll have to decide if you want a caster cleric, melee cleric, or try to do both at once, or have some other combination up your sleeves (Like going Cleric/SD).
After reading the new changes to Aura Vs Alignment, I now hold that clerics need nerfing pls
(I no longer think we need spell breach. Got enough tricks as it is.)
On that, does the damage shield stack with other shields? Mostly notably, I think, elemental shield potions. Or will it be like the others and not stackable?
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unless im reading the wiki wrong.
