AMIA ARCHIVE • View topic - Tiamat rejecting more than half her children? A travesty.

Considering Whites, Blacks, and Reds are 'ALL' Chaotic Evil; while I understand the 'reason' Tiamat is LN LE NE restricted -- would it be in ill taste to ask that the door is open for CE people to follow her?

I've got at least two that need to go NE on the sole premise that their relative dragon was CE and they didn't know better.

Same happens with the CG Metalics not being able to follow Bahamut mecanically on the Idol prayer system!

A DM should be able to change your deity field to the right deity. The alignments are to separate the clerics out.

Naivatkal wrote:

A DM should be able to change your deity field to the right deity. The alignments are to separate the clerics out.

This is a problem if the chaarcter is a Blackgaurd or a ranger or a divine Champion.

To me the easiest fix is to simply add CG to Bahamut and CE to Tiamat.

TormakSaber wrote:

Naivatkal wrote:

A DM should be able to change your deity field to the right deity. The alignments are to separate the clerics out.

This is a problem if the chaarcter is a Blackgaurd or a ranger or a divine Champion.

To me the easiest fix is to simply add CG to Bahamut and CE to Tiamat.

Seems reasonable

Ohh yes I didn't even think of that, good point!

Iirc in the actual lore she doesn't sponsor CE but I've been wrong before.

It's true, she doesn't, but it does seem odd to me that she would when many of her most powerful servants (including Reds) are CE by birth and design. Ditto for Bahamut.

Yeah. It is a silly non sense thing imo. We need/should add it.

TormakSaber wrote:

It's true, she doesn't, but it does seem odd to me that she would when many of her most powerful servants (including Reds) are CE by birth and design. Ditto for Bahamut.

Is the dragon class true dragons take that gives them powers divine?

There is Sacred Warder of Bahamut and Unholy Ravager of Tiamat, both of which are quasi-Chosen of the deity. They require LG/NG and LE/NE respectively, but if anyone tried to tell me a Red Dragon Cleric couldn't worship Tiamat I'd tell them that's completely silly and allow it, because there's no reason for chromatic dragons to be disdallowed to be clerics of the Matron of All Chromatic Dragonkind. The same goes for Bahamut, who isn't an evil deity and should have a vested interest in the patronage of his metallic true dragonkind.

Yeah that's why I'm confused. As Tiamat hasn't had her alignment changed through four editions iirc despite what could be an oversight. But its not as she's been this way in fiction for twenty odd years.

So why is it like that? Is there a lore reason or is it just continuous oversight?

Tiamat is a weird God/Devil (former Archfiend) which is why she is LE. She, and a few others should be fine to take followers outside of their alignments depending upon the reason why. CE Dragons being an obvious example for Tiamat.

Well if that's true then why isn't that reflected in canon sources?

Kossuth, for example, is TN, but allows LG and LE, but not CE or CG. Exceptions can and are made in the official lore, so why isn't it being made officially here?

It isn't, to me at least, a question of 'should be,' but more that the Tiamat deity has gone through revision after revision and hasn't been changed. So are we just going to do it?

TormakSaber wrote:

simply add CG to Bahamut and CE to Tiamat.

+1

Commie wrote:

Well if that's true then why isn't that reflected in canon sources?

Kossuth, for example, is TN, but allows LG and LE, but not CE or CG. Exceptions can and are made in the official lore, so why isn't it being made officially here?

It isn't, to me at least, a question of 'should be,' but more that the Tiamat deity has gone through revision after revision and hasn't been changed. So are we just going to do it?

One thing that hasn't been considered in this thread: Amia handles alignment as being a static concept, when alignment is really dynamic and always in flux dependant upon 'each' action of a pc. So, any changes made should be treated as compensation for the limitations that are already in place...

You misunderstand, I agree that it makes no sense, alingment in general makes no sense as three dimensional characters don't fit onto a 3x3 grid, but Tiamats alingment consistently makes no sense.

So why is it consistent? Before we just change it, i'd like to know why she constantly doesn't sponsor CE.

Tiamat in a Nutshell incoming.

It's really actually as arbitrary as was before said in the thread -- she's just technically a Baatezu. Sort of. Former Archduke (Archduchess?) of the first layer even, before she got kicked out of the kool kids klub by Asmodeus for literally giving no shits and failing at her job to guard Avernus.

Afterwhich, and upon completion of an extensive amount of vaping dragon breath and cross fit through assaults on the Untheric deities (whom their people hated anyway -- read as: which got her more worshippers as it happened), she subsumed the entire portfolio of a pantheon pretty much by wiping it from existence (alongside Hoar, who is still occasionally a pretty cool guy) and arbitrarily became a diety that anyone actually cared about (You can't make this up). Dragons, whom had recognized her as their patron for a long time if they were chromatic (including the reds, who just used her subservient Red dragon manbitch Garyx to justify being destructive shits), were joined by a series of small cults that sprung up in her wake; alongside a bunch of converts from Set, and then a few folk in Chessenta later down the line in the Time of Troubles when her divine essence was split off into three other dragons -- wherein one actually took over an entire city state and made the entire calamity work out really, 'really' well for her.

There was some more shit nobody cares about that sort of established that somewhere along the way she herself mostly stopped caring about wether other entities were or weren't very lawful at all -- but it's also been established that any time anything that isn't a dragon bothered following her it was highly organized, and was decidedly influential in their respective regions.

This sound irrelevant? Not really, because it's part of a point; Tiamat is lawful largely because 'she just is', but if you absolutely must know why she's deliberately considered LE beyond any revision across five editions of DnD, read her fucking dogma and look at her actual churches/clergy both within and outside dragon kind -- she isn't about "lol dragons for the sake of dragons", she's pretty much the Dragon equivalent of Bane rofl.

There's a distinctive hierarchy to it, and an endgame goal of shoving the world under her heel isn't the sort of goal that a CE diety just makes: it's 'The world is a mess and I just want to rule it'. Her Dragonlance counterpart 'is' CE, but that's because the aforementioned goal is abandoned in favor of 'let's just kill everything that isn't a dragon and turn this world to ashes I'm bored'.

The alignment axis for her is there because her 'human' worshippers fall into that category, not because any Chromatics could or should fall into it.

'Still not done' bump.

Well... To offer a slight spin on this, for Commie. I was curious too, and I did some reading.

Most sources say that she rules her church with a strict hierarchy, and that blue and green dragons are most likely to actually serve her. The chaotic breeds acknowledge her power and might, but essentially pay her lip service as they're more likely to serve their OWN interests than those of a god.
I'll use reds as an example, because they're iconic... A red doesn't want to share anything and their particular society is much like drow society. They're hyper intelligence, wise... but proud, cruel, brutish and each of them is an absolute megalomaniac. They serve themselves, their own avarice and their own desire. That kind of creature, is obviously smart enough to recognise their divine mother; she created them. Red dragons; the perfect embodiment of dragonkind. But, what do they care about more... Grovelling to a god for power, or... becoming mighty in their own right? It's the latter for reds.

Also it seems that in the case of actual dragons, if they wish to be granted boons, she would send one of her chromatic children of the same colour to 'manage' the process. She has a chromatic child of each classic colour, many of whom are her chosen. Obviously some of those are chaotic, so it's not that she doesn't favour the chaotic breeds; rather they're too caught up in their own vanity and arrogance to properly serve a creature other than themselves in any true respect.
Most sources of her subsuming the realms of chaotic dragons, for example, are essentially via brute force and demanding that they kneel, rather than them immediately bending the knee.

I think she demands obedience, and that's not a chaotic trait. I think she'd likely admire a mighty red for it's tenacity, before she crushed it for example. . . It's not personal, it's the way reds work, and she understands that. She's proud of her children, but at the same time. If they stand against her, she'll swat e'm down in a rather 'oh, that's adorable' way. I don't think the cleric alignment is misplaced, rather she'd enforce that alignment on her non-dragon worshippers much more strictly; because if they aren't her children, then they'd better know who's boss. . . And who's better at following orders? Lawful people.

Using reds as an example is historically invalid on Amia, considering the existence of Tormak's Wyrmshadow Prophecy plot a few years back.

A Black Dragon and a Red Dragon, both clerics of Tiamat and the behind-the-scenes and spiritual leaders (respectively) of their other dragon-bretheren and the dragon kin of that period, have both existed in Amia's canonical history; and so there's a precedent for CE Clerics of Tiamat already existent in the setting.

While these are full-blooded dragon kind, and thus obviously subject to slightly different rules in terms of favor from their diety; I'm one to think that a god, particularly a follower-greedy and self-important evil god, that actually cared about adherence to code and law when concerning the distribution of their divine powers isn't going to bless the prayers of 'any' creature with the ability to invoke their literal divine will without abandon.

To set the precedent of things falling under a god's direct creation and purview being biased in favor by their diety would set the precedent that gods like Red Knight would need to sponsor a NE or NG general because they were at the head of command and strategy for an army, or that Malcanthet should yield power to Erinyes (whom besides doing the same function as succubi, if I recall canonically, are one of 'those' weird planar types that are considered to be linked to both Baator and the Abyss; right up there along with Graz'zt), or for that matter a mortal who had at some point or the next pacted with a Demon Lord would still be entitled to the boons of that demon lord if they thereafter went to become Lawful due to training and temperance.

It's just not something that works in practice as well as on paper -- so if Tiamat is going to have CE True Dragon clerics, it would logically follow that she'll just as well take CE blackguards and CE dragonkin/halfbreeds.

EDIT: In-cannon precedents for divine classed servants of Tiamat also exist.

Quote:

A Black Dragon and a Red Dragon, both clerics of Tiamat

Only the Red.

TormakSaber wrote:

Quote:

A Black Dragon and a Red Dragon, both clerics of Tiamat

Only the Red.

Oh. Sorry.

Still a red cleric though.

Mechanically and RP wise this is an easy work-around. The alignments are all based off of the "dragon type". Well. Disciples aren't actually dragons, nor should they be bound to the allignment type of the scales they poop out after they awaken the dormant blood. Even then they are still mostly human as they aren't even classified as half drsgons. This of course is unless apotheiosis has occured, but even then...human or elf or hin...or whatever, still remains. The requirements for a cleric of tiamat are somewhat set in stone in the source, if you are of the Dragon variety, as specific dragons have very different abilities. By all rights, a half Mercury dragon would be a mage of sorts, as they are more in favor of using magic versus tooth and claw combat. NWN only orginally made the RDD and bard/ sorcerer are very accurate representations of the Red Blood. A black would most likely be some form of stealthy character, an opportunist. I'm getting off target. My point is, disciples are not full blown dragons...so the alignment shouldnt really matter. Tiamat loves her little chaotic bastards, she just doesn't want them running things.

I conceed, it's far cleaner to change the accepted alignments on Amia.
My response was to try and clean up the question Commie asked. The emphasis on the likelihood of chaotic bloodlines worshipping her is less attractive to their psyche, than a lawful one. Certainly not impossible as she's clearly their patron.

I do think this is a good improvement, so long as CG dragonbloods can also worship the platinum dragon... It kinda makes sense to draw the ideological lines in the sand properly.

Though this following question may be more... fitting to the lore thread, I've always been curious. Do the other dragon types have their respective patrons, or do they seek Bahmut for Justice and Tiamat for Power? You can't even compare dragonkind to humans. . . We're all the same, and we make a choice when it comes to our path...
Dragons have physical different sub-types. Gold dragons are clearly not silver dragons. It's fire vs cold for a start... and gold dragons, are certainly not red dragons... despite the fact they're called dragons. I guess, though many things make them similar... their differences are stark and obvious compared to people. Those physical differences, apparently also lead to common traits for each type too. So... do battle dragons look at the chromatic/metallic conflict and simply 'choose' which side they as an individual dragon support more?

If yes...

If a person chooses a chromatic bloodline, we absolutely say they cannot gain favor from Bahmut and vice-versa for metallics looking to tiamat. Because those two dragon types appear to be the only ones who cannot betray their natures? So how do they view the other dragons, that aren't like them... 'locked in' to the conflict? Do they feel... jealous of that freedom? Or, look at them with pity because they lack glorious purpose? O_o It intrigues me.

I could go on and on speculating about that! But I won't. Haha! I can't afford to right now!

But yeah, changing the alignments would be great. Copper and Brass kin should be able to be divine followers of Bahamut, too, whilst keeping to the CG alignment.

Strom wrote:

So... do battle dragons look at the chromatic/metallic conflict and simply 'choose' which side they as an individual dragon support more?

No.

Quote:

Battle dragons are glorious creature that exult in valorous combat. They often serve as steeds for powerful warriors. A battle dragon at rest has a dull brown sheen to its scales. However, as soon as it takes wing, allowing the sun to strike its armored skin, it gleams like the finest gold.
Battle dragons are notorious optimists, and always seem to find the silver lining to any cloud. This emotion is often contagious, as they inspire others to bravery and valor in battle. By juvenile age, battle dragons may find use as steeds for small riders. Young adult and older dragons can serve Medium riders. Some Cities or knightly orders have reached mutual protection and assistance accords with nearby battle dragon families, as generation after generation of rider finds an ally withen the same line of dragons. Battle dragons speak Common, Draconic, and Celestial.
(Draconomican page 176)

They would never follow any evil god or goddess, and no evil god or goddess would have them.

Tiamat rejecting more than half her children? A travesty.

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