Let's not mince words, here. By and large, the Dev team has done a phenomenal job incorporating various flavorful, worthwhile abilities and bonuses to the roster of base and prestige classes available in game. Hell, they took the two worst offenders and made entirely new classes out of them! A few others, though, have been more neglected, the 'unflavored vanilla cakes' in the roster. This thread is something of a catch-all net of suggestions (and a few reminders) for them, a harder look at what could be done in the future to make them more tantalizing choices.

The subject of 'pure' classes or 'pure' builds tends to have a sketchy history 'round these parts. On one hand, in a relative sense, there's nothing stopping you from building to suit your character and what they're capable of doing instead of optimizing their potency. On the other hand, what absolute madman would play a 30 fighter instead of a 20/3/7 Fighter/Rogue/WM?? The latter is better in every way except total feats! Building up pure classes, in my mind, is less about making them competitive and more about balancing the option to do so, that it isn't an active detriment to the character.

Weapon Master

Yes, I know, but bear with me a moment.

Anecdotally or personally, when was the last time you knew of anyone going over 7 levels in Weapon Master? If you answered 'several', the follow-up question is if they stopped at 10 or kept going even further.

It's no secret that the Weapon Master we know and loathe isn't so much a 'mystic expert of one weapon above all others etc' as an excuse to boost your crits. A bonus which happens to be a marvelous all-in strategy because it either kills someone in one or two rounds or doesn't work at all because their AC is unassailable or they are like a good chunk of NPCs and Palemasters who are entirely immune to the only benefit the class provides.

So what's the solution? In this case, fair question. Weapon Masters should be closer in crunch to a monk than the one-trick-pony they are now (all hail Ki), and it would be interesting to see them have access to the special Amia-specific monk abilities, using Ki Damage uses instead of Stunning Fist. More importantly, if they're going to forego a few side benefits by investing more levels, or god forbid going full 20, it should reflect more in the function of basic combat. If you tried taking 19 levels of Weapon Master now, battle clerics, RDDs, dragon shapers, shifters, assassins...almost anybody except another WM who operates in the same place you do is going to eat you for breakfast because even with that supposedly-massive +5 to AB, in some cases theirs is STILL higher, their AC is almost certainly higher, and they have a host of other benefits to throw in your face (epic dodge, anyone?)

All of this is sad because a WM shouldn't just be Fighter + crits. It should be identifiable as its own separate entity and, more importantly, shouldn't be the only thing that makes a vanilla fighter build tolerable - we'll get to the fighter class itself shortly.

• Additional flat bonuses to attack AND damage in epic levels
• Keying Ki Damage to special training abilities like (or exactly the same as) monk, as I mentioned
• The ability to mythal additional properties to their Weapon of Choice in epic levels
• Immunity to Disarm, perhaps some bonus to special maneuvers like Knockdown or Whirlwind Attack
• Improvements to Power Attack and/or Expertise (especially Expertise) when using their Weapon of Choice, such as -3 AB for +5 bonus or similar

Any or all of those could serve to add a unique identity to the weapon master, particularly one with lots of levels in their core prestige class, and more than likely other, cooler abilities I might not even have thought of yet.

Rogue

Oh, Rogue. So vital, and yet so underused. It's probably THE MOST dipped class in any build on the server, but when it comes time to tally levels, it gets left behind. Ranger, Monk, Bard, Shadowdancer, Assassin, Blackguard...all of these classes add their own abilities to the pile, are easy for a rogue to qualify for, and while the rogue makes a mean supplement, it's rarely the prime ingredient for a build. Assassin in particular is a sturdy dog because with its own sneak attack progression, spell-like abilities and cool-ass widget buffs, being a Rogue/Assassin is less a question of how much rogue you want and more a question of how many levels in it you're willing to invest before maxing out the rest of the PrC.

But what is it about the rogue that someone could work off of to make it more of a standalone class? Make 30 levels of rogue an attractive option on its own merits, not just because you're not evil enough for assassin or sneaky enough to be a shadowdancer? In short, the skills. Rogues get the most skill points by far of any other class, and they have a plethora of class skills to spend them on. In fact, you could liken them to a fighter quite easily. Both classes don't necessarily do anything flashy, but they get lots of feats (feats and skills for the rogue) and plenty of wiggle room to work them in.

• +1 or +2 bonus to all skills for every rogue level above 20
• Free Epic Skill Focus feats or an expanded epic bonus feat list
• A unique, separate form of sneak attack much weaker than the rogue's base sneak attack value, but that penetrates immunity

Call me crazy, but the last one doesn't seem that bad. Even if it's massive like +1d6 per 2 levels over 20th, that still comes out to 5d6 extra damage that only triggers against sneak-immune creatures, which are the bane of the rogue even more than the weapon master because sneak attacks tend to be damn near close to the only damage source for a DEX-rogue. And given the Assassin has its own tools, it stands to reason the O.G. sneak attacker should have something to fall back on when the zombies come out.

Ranger

What?! What's wrong with the ranger?! Well, in my opinion, it feels like it lacks its own place on the class list. It's a warrior with a special bonus feat that doesn't function with half the armor they can wear, spellcasting that follows paladin progression without really being as useful (Blade Thirst and Freedom of Movement being the glowing exceptions), and skills that just seem 'rogue-lite' or 'SD-lite' without much to back them up - it doesn't help that they rock only 4+INT with INT being one of their dump stats with a whopping 16 class skills, several of which are advisable to try and max for several builds (lookin' at you, Discipline, Spot, and Hide/MS). Also, they don't have tumble. It's not a major gripe, but seriously, they don't get tumble. Furthermore, take a look at the class icon and see if you notice anything wrong. Like the fact that it's literally a bow and arrow but the class gets no archery benefits.

Ranger doesn't need a LOT of work, it really doesn't. The animal companion, Bane of Enemies, and Blade Thirst are all VERY solid abilities. But you have to invest quite a bit for them, and until then (sometimes even after) the ranger can still feel...well, 'lite'.

• Any kind of support for archery. It doesn't need to equal Arcane Archer, not at all, but bonus feats or even a flat hit/damage bonus would be nice. Maybe 1/day replenish a stack of arrows for free? There are lots of possibilities here.
• A little more skill work. Notably getting tumble as a class skill, but a few spot or hide/ms bonuses might not be amiss either.
• Allowing rangers to dual-wield in medium armor.
• I'd like to see some kind of unique system that emphasizes their biggest PnP strength - tracking. Being able to see spawn locations, the ability to discern some of an enemy's stats, little RP notifications about an area and its inhabitants a la IWD2. Something to demonstrate that it's a bad idea to hide from the hunter.

Fighter

You had to know this was coming.

Fighter. Oh, boy, where do I begin.

All right, I'll admit WotC didn't give us wiggle room with this guy. Fighters were bonus feats and nothing else for 1.5 editions straight, and before that they literally just fought things. But in the old days, it could at least be said that fighters fought WELL. Now...they do not. Fighter is another build cornerstone for proficiency and a few extra feats, but it's nowhere near as vital as rogue or bard, or at least not for the same reasons. You use fighter as filler for extra BAB, and occasionally EWS, not because it makes you better at fighting stuff.

The reason I saved this for last was to compare it to all its fellows. Weapon Master is about focusing on the mystic elements of...mastering a single weapon. It's kind of in the name. Rogues are experts, with lots of skills and a solid damage buff. Rangers, according to myself, may not quite have their own niche, but they still have a pet, decent spellcasting, and like the rogue a damage buff (Favored Enemy) that only improves with time and investment. Fighter, by contrast, SHOULD just be generally good at hitting stuff and not dying too quickly. It isn't. It has feats. Not even bonus feats that let them improve with other feats like Defensive Roll, Stunning Fist, or Favored Enemy. Just feats.

But it's in the feats that I think fighters could improve the most organically, even though the instinct is to say '+AB in epic'. Which isn't to say I wouldn't also like that, just that fighter should get a buff on its own merits, not wishing it was better at weaponmastering or roguing or monking or even rangering. Better at...what's the verb equivalent to those? Oh yeah, FIGHTING.

• A bonus to AB past 20th levels of fighter. Not also damage, or on the same par as the WM, but a little extra boost to everything they hit with.
• Changes to Parry that would facilitate a benefit you don't need to class out for, such as allowing it to give an AC bonus like tumble.
• Allow characters with the Epic Fighter feat to select certain feats (like Blinding Speed, Epic Damage Reduction, Improved Whirlwind Attack, Overwhelming Critical, Perfect Health and possibly Epic Dodge/Dev Crit) without needing to qualify for the prerequisites.
  
  Dwarven Defender already does this with Perfect Health, so the concept is there, and a fighter lives and dies by their feats - it stands to reason they should have an edge in that area, especially with all the builds you need to give up as a 21+ fighter, let alone a pure fighter. Hell, if you want to go whole hog, add Great Strength, Great Dexterity and Great Constitution to their epic bonus feat list so they can even up the playing field that way.

Again, these aren't demands or even things I think WILL even be implemented, but rather a facilitator for discussion regarding the less-played classes, or classes that are almost never maxed out. Pretty much every other class or prestige class grants benefits, sometimes major ones, for taking 21-30/11-20 levels, but these three (plus ranger, being a special case for this purpose) get left in the dust.

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Think the only reason RDD and SD can be changed is because it can be done w/o a hack update, and the warlock is just removing a feat and adding an item.

While a change to a base class requires a huge hak update which nobody on staff can currently do.

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ANT ALARM

ANT ALARM

The most common build is actually 12/2/16 fighter/rogue/WM followed by 13/10/7 rogue/fighter WM. 20/3/7 is bad and rarely if ever done. 12/2/16 has been standard for over a decade.

Unfortunately due to how strong the crits are, and how strong the 13/10/7 dex WM is, I can't get behind any buffs to the class, because it'll just be buffing dex melee, and I refuse to buff dex melee wm.

~

Rogue could use love and your ideas are pretty cool. I don't know how viable this is because "there's no way a new hak is getting done", though.

~

Ranger could use some archery love, I agree. 3.0 Ranger is a bit of a bad spot. Ranger dualweild should work in any armor at level 9 imo.

I'm not a fan of the metagaming info re: tracking, sorry.

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Not sure how to buff fighter, but I like the idea of the expanded feat list. I don't like the idea of Epic Dodge.

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Ultimately though....



It's not a matter of "Can't do", it's a matter of "it will take hundreds of man hours better directed elsewhere." Same deal, in the end.

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Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham

For Fighter, I thought it would be cool if they got a free Weapon Focus feat every so often. The idea being that if you want to focus on one weapon, staking your best game in one sort of physical damage, go WM. If you want to be generally good with a number of weapons, continue to go Fighter and be able to change it up as needed. Considering what things have physical resistances and immunities at epic levels, it could be worth it.

Upping "pureclasses" will always be an option, but I feel like the notion that a single class build is supposed to be particularly better than what it is is kind of outdated. Being well-rounded is a reward in itself more often than not, both IC and buildwise. A lv 30 fighter is not that much a better fighter than a lv 29ftr/1rog, but at least the latter has basic experience of a rogue in addition to being just as good a fighter. Many of the most powerful characters in PnP are multiclass(though with Chosen and Avatar Templates, it matters less in any case.)

My money is still on somehow making PC "maneuver"s that 1) move melee classes away from being so dependent on UMD and magic and 2) give them something to do during a fight than click and wait. Naturally like most PnP maneuvers, classes with full AB would be better at them, but it would be easy to do something like give Fighter an innate boost to them at certain levels, too. Something like that could be done through the PC tools, not requiring an update to the HAK.

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I'm not blind to this, don't worry! But, in my mind, having the conversation in the first place is as important as putting the end result into practice. Also more fun, no?




Point taken. I'm going to just directly recognize my ignorance here and apologize for my error - I'll try to keep building reference points out of these kinds of posts in the future, as I've...never really been a part of Amia's building zeitgeist, and that just replaces talking points with corrections, and that seems burdensome for everyone.





I would argue that spawns and area information aren't so much metagaming as streamlining. It would help the rare inexperienced player learn the points of danger that everyone who's been to an area before knows anyway, and in certain cases having limited extra information about your enemies would be lifesaving, especially at low levels. Simple things, like 'this area has evidence of traps' or 'gibberlings are known for their acid bite'. Nothing that screams pure data at you, but general, RPed tidbits that a tracker or monster hunter should know if they're wandering.




What would be cooler is if they focused in weapon TYPES rather than individual weapons. Stealing ideas from Pathfinder never hurt anybody.




On the contrary, a 29/1 fighter/rogue is better than a pure fighter in numerous ways, even I know that. Bear in mind the idea of 'branching out' is itself made into a mockery with NWN's system because you aren't allowed to hold your skill points in PnP. Multiclassing isn't just beneficial for us, it's highly encouraged. I'm not suggesting we similarly encourage making pureclass characters gods on earth, rather that the option should be presented without the caveat that if your character just happens to be a 30 fighter or 30 rogue, they won't spend their whole first few months staring in anguish at their peers before requesting a self rebuild. Not to mention the potential for paragons to start reclaiming their place in the world. Perhaps it's just because we have so few, but the idea of someone who is 'x', but is ONLY x, and could be considered the primary example of x, appeals to me. It's easy enough for primary casters, like many of those powerful FR characters I think you're referring to, because they never STOP getting class features. Some others...never really had decent ones to begin with.




Ironically I'd sooner see that as a feature on Weapon Masters than fighters. Tome of Battle reeks of WotC coming to the sudden and grinding realization that they massively screwed up 3.5's inter-party game balance, but maneuver-heavy characters are closer in fluff to martial artists than footsoldiers. Personally, I prefer stories where the warrior wins with skill and grit, as opposed to manifesting feats of demi-wizardry even Liu Kang would find incongruous.

This isn't to say I think maneuvers are without merit, just that I personally don't feel they jive well with the fighter's fluff. That said, if fighter was forever deleted and replaced with Warblade tomorrow, I wouldn't really mind.

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So I can't speak for abilities inherent to he class being added...but I have been repeatedly told that the door is WIDE OPEN for WMs to develop all sorts of neat Ki abilities because nobody has really delved into it, and was already toying with ideas of my own. Sure you have to pay DCs for it but you stand to get unique and interesting abilities!

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Sir Taelar Ardelyn of Wiltun
Winner of the Razor Tongued Award 2015!

Kira "Penny" Sigers
Better than Boulderdash!

On Pathfinder, all the classes get a special ability at lvl 20.

Well in our case, something special could be added at lvl 30 on the Pure Class.

Also Pure Spellcasters are already very strong so would be kinda hard to choose a bonus to them that wont make em even more stronger then the other classes.

I know those things could be very HAK dependable... but well just an Idea!

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Wilfire Strongfeet (Tight pants)
Adela Griffonheart (Poke)
Hallvardr Erikson (Sexy Boy)
Emilly MacMillan (Happy)



Sprites by Raua!

I've said this little nugget, time and time again. Classes like rogue take the backseat due to skill dumping. Why would anyone take more of a class with medium hit die, and medium AB progression of you can just take what you want with minimal commitment. Sometimes you just have to think outside the box on that one. STR based rogues are very viable and offer massive utility to any number of melee builds. Investing 14 rogue will get you a lot. Make it the main class, along with fighter, ranger and add a splash of Master Scout and you have a strong, well rounded character.

Fighter. It is what it is. It's not specialized, nor is it supposed to be. If one was to play a pure fighter, he would enjoy healthy hp, large damage with almost any weapon he could get his hands on and great AB. He's not flashy, but then again, he never trained to be.

Until something comes along that is better at trashing everything in its path than a weapon master, I don't think that needs much tweaking. People aren't investing more in the class, because of many reasons. Improved evasion is a very, very good one. Sneak Attack is another. Its also not a class that even in pen and paper grows in appeal after seven.

Ranger is a monster. Maybe not so much with bows, but the it depends on where you get your arrows and how much you are paying for them.

You have great ideas, but I think that many of them would force the entire server to request rebuilds, should any of them be implemented.

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Jace Fenneril: Cleric of Sharess.

Michael Harcourte: Painter, Scribe.

Sebastian Mayartte: Gambler, MercenaryDeceased

To be fair weapon master didn't exist past 3.0 because wizards realized how broken of a class it was and how "meta defining" for fighters it was.

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Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham

I want to clarify when I was saying a a lv 30 fighter isn't that much more of a better "fighter" than a lv 29ftr/1rog, I meant in the gestalt idea of whatever a "fighter" is IC. I explained my idea on multiclassing and its IC implications here.

Also, when I was talking about maneuvers, I wasn't talking about the ToB concept, but physical-oriented things that aren't represented at all ingame. Everyone can do them, thus having them as player tools makes sense, but melee classes would just be better at them more often than not(higher CONs generally, higher BAB). It's the "meleers have nothing to do but point and click" dilemma. Either that, or spam KD. I mean stuff like sprinting, jumping, grappling, ducking for cover, and most importantly, being able to blindly swing at potentially hidden enemies. Why does everyone dip UMD? Because magic is basically the only way on the server to do basic shit like go faster, hold someone in place, or bunker down.

Anyway, that's a pipedream I've had on the back burner for years now. What suffices in the meantime are things like you suggest, weapon group bonuses and so forth. Really, I think something as simple as a widget that allowed fighters of a high enough level to apply an extra damage type to their weapon would do wonders. You aren't as specialized as a WM, but you're better at making whatever you have your hands on at the moment work. Skellies not affected by your battle axe? Start hitting them with the flat edge and smash em up. While it's not an idea that should really require any levels of Fighter, I could reason and sleep peacefully that it takes XX levels of fighter to do effectively.

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Again I will say I agree to a certain point. The base classes, have been for a very long time the "rp building blocks" of a multiclassed character. I posted about it somewhere, but "dipping" into UMD without any roleplayed explanation as how the hell the half orc barbarian learned how to use every magical item in game feels...odd. I often cap my UMD where I can use beneficial scrolls and wands, but not every item in game. I like when a crafty wizard gets to work on locks and traps and actually has an explanation how the blazes they learned it. Flying of the rails again. The Basic classes were, in later versions of D&D a portal to prestige class/multiclass possibilities. I think this is represented well enough here. I do agree that they are rather mundane, but that is how it was meant to be.

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Jace Fenneril: Cleric of Sharess.

Michael Harcourte: Painter, Scribe.

Sebastian Mayartte: Gambler, MercenaryDeceased

Being "mundane" isn't an issue. It is fine a long as you are able to do all the mundane things you should be able to do. The issue is mundane meleers, in general, are a hammers in a world full of multi-action modular power tools.

Anyway, two more ideas.

Cleave Feat addition: splash damage. When damaging an enemy with a medium size weapon, an attack is also rolled at the nearest enemy within 5 ft for half of the damage dealt. When using a large weapon, an additional enemy is also cleaved. Great Cleave makes splashed enemies take full damage.

A drawback of only being able to point and click is that meleers can only damage one target at a time. While we might say this is the intent, it really makes no sense. By the time you factor in companions, pets, summons, and spells, a meleers damage potential vs anything but a single target is nothing special.

Grenade-likes: no longer have static DCs, but a range of DCs determined by touch attack and abilities.
Munitions Training- Fighters gain an innate +1 to their grenade-like DCs every 4 levels.

In keeping with the idea of more mundane ways to do things, alchemies, bombs, and such should be counted as part of them. Not that umd is super popular for offensive options, but having the option to chuck a few alchemists fires and know that they'll actually do something past lv 5 is a nice alternative for umding for wands of X.

Sorry, I know those aren't exactly things for pure classes, but like I said, it's my opinion that pure classing in itself is nothing intrinsically worthy of reward. Letting a single archetype define the shape of your character gets you exactly what you paid for, and nothing more. I do however feel that classes, in themselves, should be worthwhile. And the ones that basically get nothing, no rages or widgets, like Fighters deserve some bells and whistles too. I just also happen to believe trying to fix a bad cake with pretty icing is wrong too, hence wanting to see general mundane things added for everyone, before we add other things to compensate for them.

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I was wondering why our only alchemists are also epic wizards! I forgot part of the reason was that grenadelikes have always sucked. I weep over the idea that fire bombs will probably never see any love, and would like to add that if fighters get a DC bonus, rogues should DEFINITELY get a DC bonus. There's a swirling nebulous mass in my brain whispering that Craft Trap should allow you to pump it even further and increase damage as well...but skills are available to everyone.



You don't have to apologize - I don't make these threads on the expectation that everyone agrees with my preconception.

At the same time, I feel that we DO agree...and disagree about the agreement. Specifically this:



My beef is that...they really don't seem to. 'Paying for' a fighter in the hopes that it will make you good at fighting things is like paying for a single cup of water in the hopes that it will allow you to maintain your garden. It can do a small bit for a short time, but you need a hell of a lot more stuff (and not even just water) to get the job done. Ditto rogues and skills. Skill dumps being equal, is there any real difference between a 28 x/2 rogue and a 2 x/28 rogue when it comes to skill dispersal and investment? I don't think so, and it troubles me. Classes meant to do a specific thing well shouldn't be invalidated except as a gateway to things that do their thing better than they do.

Should pure classes always be at the top of their tier? I don't think so, either. But if you DO pay for that archetype and nothing else...you should at least be able to fulfill that archetype. A pure rogue, the ultimate skillmonkey, can't really get anything more out of skills than anyone else, and they suffer in many other areas, at least by way of opportunity cost (the 'why didn't I dip monk/WM/SD/bard/wizard/MS' effect). A pure fighter is almost laughably self-explanatory, but you can wipe the floor with it in a normal everyday brawl using dozens of builds that don't even use WARRIOR-type class levels, let alone any fighter levels, and when you add barbarian, WM, RDD and so on, it's just sad. Should they be the best around, so nothing's gonna ever bring them down? No, but if you're buying that cake, you should be biting into a cake, not a soggy off-brand half-frozen mint.

In short, we agree that a pure investment should limit you to your area of expertise. That comes with the territory. But don't you think if you're limited to one area of expertise, you should be an...expert at it? I certainly do, and that's what I'm trying to get across.

Except with ranger. Ranger's just weird.

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