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walnutboy
 
PostPosted: Sun, Aug 21 2016, 16:38 PM 

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You mistake my learning in history class about evidence as dissatisfaction at what i see. My point was you can't offer proof in an argument with two lines in a clipped screenshot, all you do is make the people who are already annoyed more... well, annoyed i guess.

To be honest this discussion as a whole doesn't affect me as i don't play the class and i don't PvP if i can help it, was merely making the remark that testing should normally follow the same setup as its original discovery with evidence to back it up... but thats just me! :D

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Guardian
 
PostPosted: Sun, Aug 21 2016, 17:06 PM 

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Commie wrote:
i didn't mention rosary at all.



Yes, directly you did not mention her.

For funsies I'd ask you to name me one more active character with fdrake companion. ML does not count (for obvious reasons). If you name them I'll stand corrected. Until then I take it as a personal assault towards Elyon and what happened in Dale. And you can tell by now that I do not appreciate it a bit.

Still, on a server where we have rolls vs. skill (on aoe, mind you) and even rolls vs. attribute (again aoe), which if you fail you loose the fight, I remain convinced that this single target, easily blocked bolt is miles away from game-breaking.

(by the way, I have just noticed the "solution" to make it 10 + 1/2 CL vs. will. Made me lol hard. If laughter prolongs ones life, you guys have given me years, kudos for that).

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Holy_Avenger
 
PostPosted: Sun, Aug 21 2016, 17:15 PM 

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MisterLich wrote:
I used the ability in an OOC pvp test with a friend's shifter.

I opened with timestop, summoned familiar during timestop, immediately confuse-bolt'd him as timestop ended.

I won the pvp instantly.

I just don't get why this idea is being defended with such fervor. Is it because I'm the one who suggested it?

Walnut, you are dissatisfied with my screenshot because I didn't snap the entire log? I literally summoned my familiar, and had it use the bolt on a fire giant. I don't know what you're dissatisfied with here.

And if people are scared that Imma use the ability, maybe that's a sign of your own hypocrisy... I'm the one who suggested adding a save, so don't accuse me of being a powergamer now that you've so adamantly stood your ground and said it doesn't need a save and it isn't OP ;)

That said I'd welcome you to change your minds and admit that saveless, SR bypassing confusion, with basically enough AB to hit anybody with a flatfooted touch attack, is a bit ridiculous and needs a save added.

You even have Terra saying it needs tweaking - in the first way, it should be altered to be in line with the new CC changes, because it's still CL/2 rounds.



Alright. I didn't want to post in this "wanna-be discussion" again, but I have to. Here you have pure facts.

1) You never can speak about OOC testing with a friend in PvP, because that's just not right. It will only support your own opinion about how bad it is and it will never give you the proper results that can be used as argument - if it will be tested in proper PvP (see below) than it is a real result.

2) If you consider PvP being only about "Hello there, I am here to kill you - please prepare yourself and I will prepare aswell, then we fight" - then there is something wrong. Person that is prepared for PvP before PvP started will win. PvP is about knowing your character good enough to pull unexpected ace from a sleeve. Just like Rosary did.

3) I will now use 'you' as an example, so don't be mad that I am attacking you now, 'kay? (because I do not)
You are Cleric/SD (to my knowledge). Your class was significantly boosted in latest update. What is needed for a Fey dragon to RTA you? Sight. What does your new searing light do? Blindness.
Instead of being mad about a defeat, you could have learn from it. Next time, pop mindblank - dis you? - searing light on the way by that time. And that is only one of about 10 ways, including HIPS, how you could have dodge that attack.

4) You consider Confusion bolt gamebreaking? What about Balagarn's Iron Horn? That isn't gamebreaking enough? I'd say much, much, much more, because you have no real chance to dodge it. Of course, if you are STR based character, you will have no problem. But it is a 10 meter radius instant KD for anyone, who's not STR based. Anyone can have it - Wizard/Sorc/UMD user on wands. This spell is absolute win button against any monk/rogue/Assassin/etc. who's focused on DEX. Discipline doesn't really help you, because it counts only STR check. (And yes, it was modified, but it really doesn't help much, still it is a STR check.)

5) You say that only Mindblank is way to prevent confusion bolt? What about Vehement Charge from Knight Commander? Immunity to Confusion, Stun, Blindness, Snare, etc.
And please, do not try to tell me you'll get -discipline for that. I have KC, using this ability almost 99% time when I am logged and I am telling you (even without Discipline gloves) I still got over 70+ Discipline, so... Weak argument. (Core gear, except one or two epics.)

6) Confusion is not Stun. That means, you still are able to attack and/or therefore attack your opponent or their familiar. (Yes, there is some kind of a luck factor, but still there is this chance - it happened to me, both as being confused or confusing others, many times - so this chance is here.

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Last edited by Holy_Avenger on Sun, Aug 21 2016, 17:18 PM, edited 1 time in total.

 
      
Guardian
 
PostPosted: Sun, Aug 21 2016, 17:17 PM 

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Holy_Avenger wrote:
Just like Rosary did.


I really doubt she did it on purpose. From what I saw, she did not even possessed the familiar, as she kept bombarding others with spells. If you take over your companion, you go immediatelly flat-footed and stand still.

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Alex - Life is adventure or nothing!
Eddie - Sex, drugs and rock'n... more sex.
=========
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Holy_Avenger
 
PostPosted: Sun, Aug 21 2016, 17:20 PM 

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Guardian wrote:
Holy_Avenger wrote:
Just like Rosary did.


I really doubt she did it on purpose. From what I saw, she did not even possessed the familiar, as she kept bombarding others with spells. If you take over your companion, you go immediatelly flat-footed and stand still.


That's 100% nothing against Rosary/Elyon/Candy W.

Simply enough, that trick in a sleeve was there, hidden from everyone and it was used (by familiar itself) in a right time. Of course, now Elyon uncovered Bendir's most powerful arsenal to take over Amia. By conf. bolting everyone in their path for Glory!

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Elyon
 
PostPosted: Sun, Aug 21 2016, 17:22 PM 



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I just want to say... that this topic makes me feel awkward lol.

But um... just so we know, Osiris' mindblank was dispelled and Toodles was randomly shooting bolts out which just happened to be perfect timing. I wasn't dominating the familiar.

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Roach
 
PostPosted: Sun, Aug 21 2016, 17:22 PM 

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Wow.. reading over this, one thing is clear to me: It's time for the DM's and Devs to test and decide. All the arguments and then some have been presented. No point in beating each other up anymore. It's not proving or changing anything.

The idea has been suggested, and debated, now... let our team do their thing.

BTW, this is not intended to inflame this further, really, I hate seeing people get this worked up over things, it's a game. If indeed this is broken, the team will decide and take appropriate action.

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MisterLich
 
PostPosted: Sun, Aug 21 2016, 18:20 PM 

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Guardian saying that for some reason he thinks a balance suggestion is a personal attack on you Elyon, is really all that needed to be said. He openly admits he doesn't care about balance, he's just acting irrationally because he's emotionally invested to like you & dislike me.

Holy_Avenger's list of things:

1. This is not an argument or based on facts. I tested in pvp and won without effort. Next.

2. You can dispel mindblank as Elyon herself said happened during the fight. Next.

3. You're not attacking me, just offering suggestions. Though here's something you didn't realize because admittedly I forgot to mention it before. Toodles was already blinded. He failed his save against Word of Faith. Somehow he was immune to the blindness - I don't know how, the combat log didn't say anything at the time. So I actually did both of the things you suggest - blind the enemy and use mindblank - and they didn't work even with Elyon not trying to use Toodles' confuse bolt.

4. Off-topic. We're discussing one ability here. Balagarn's was actually rebalanced and it is possible to succeed the STR check as a DEX or caster build now, and similarly, I've used it to KD frost giants now. Also, against a non-caster who doesn't have high caster level, literally any spell resistance blocks it, or globe of invulnerability, or minor globe of invulnerability, or ghostly visage potions, or spell mantle.... But again, we're discussing a different ability. If you want to nerf Balagarn's, be my guest, open a Balagarn's thread.

5. OK. So 5 levels of a prestige class and you can be immune to it with your capstone ability. That makes the ability balanced?

6. Actually, confusion is better than stun, because there's no immunity to confusion besides immunity to mind effects. You can hit Pale Masters with this with little issue. Confusion is not balanced simply because there's a chance that they randomly attack the nearest opponent without using any combat abilities or items or anything... That's not effective self-defense. You can confuse them, mord's them if they have TS up, then make yourself invisible and summon BBoD to just chop them into pieces. You are perfectly safe the entire time. It's not hard to figure out an easy way to win with the faerie dragon bolt, since the vast majority of characters are not innately immune to confusion (the only immunity to it is under mind efffects - so people with several monk levels, and people actively using Vehement Charge.)

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Commie
 
PostPosted: Sun, Aug 21 2016, 18:21 PM 

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Guardian wrote:
Commie wrote:
i didn't mention rosary at all.



Yes, directly you did not mention her.

For funsies I'd ask you to name me one more active character with fdrake companion. ML does not count (for obvious reasons). If you name them I'll stand corrected. Until then I take it as a personal assault towards Elyon and what happened in Dale. And you can tell by now that I do not appreciate it a bit.

Still, on a server where we have rolls vs. skill (on aoe, mind you) and even rolls vs. attribute (again aoe), which if you fail you loose the fight, I remain convinced that this single target, easily blocked bolt is miles away from game-breaking.

(by the way, I have just noticed the "solution" to make it 10 + 1/2 CL vs. will. Made me lol hard. If laughter prolongs ones life, you guys have given me years, kudos for that).


I think they just removed the last "vs attribute" effect and dms have said they are working on save vs skill effects lile t. Rage.

Also I think kurchin uses the Fey dragon. There are a few in winya I see too but don't rp there enough to know for sure.

The rest of your post is just you being an asshole. Ten plus half cl is pretty standard.

Also eylon this has basically nothing to do with you or what happened. The bolt is a vanilla oversight that should have been fixed years ago but just wasn't and some of us who are new to nwn (me for example) am mind of suprised it's in the game in its current state. While there seems to be a huge push to change the narrative to "something something rp ppl beat a pvp person lmao" that's not what it's about.

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Commie
 
PostPosted: Sun, Aug 21 2016, 18:25 PM 

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Also I don't even know why people are still posting here.

We got one group laughing it up about using no save no Sr minutes long cc in pvp, and another trying to explain why it isn't balanced.

Now half of you are just insulting people. I don't get it. I don't get the hostility over what's essentially fixing an oversight.

Edit:whatever. Guess this brought out some people's true colors.

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Holy_Avenger
 
PostPosted: Sun, Aug 21 2016, 18:54 PM 

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MisterLich wrote:
Guardian saying that for some reason he thinks a balance suggestion is a personal attack on you Elyon, is really all that needed to be said. He openly admits he doesn't care about balance, he's just acting irrationally because he's emotionally invested to like you & dislike me.

Holy_Avenger's list of things:

1. This is not an argument or based on facts. I tested in pvp and won without effort. Next.

2. You can dispel mindblank as Elyon herself said happened during the fight. Next.

3. You're not attacking me, just offering suggestions. Though here's something you didn't realize because admittedly I forgot to mention it before. Toodles was already blinded. He failed his save against Word of Faith. Somehow he was immune to the blindness - I don't know how, the combat log didn't say anything at the time. So I actually did both of the things you suggest - blind the enemy and use mindblank - and they didn't work even with Elyon not trying to use Toodles' confuse bolt.

4. Off-topic. We're discussing one ability here. Balagarn's was actually rebalanced and it is possible to succeed the STR check as a DEX or caster build now, and similarly, I've used it to KD frost giants now. Also, against a non-caster who doesn't have high caster level, literally any spell resistance blocks it, or globe of invulnerability, or minor globe of invulnerability, or ghostly visage potions, or spell mantle.... But again, we're discussing a different ability. If you want to nerf Balagarn's, be my guest, open a Balagarn's thread.

5. OK. So 5 levels of a prestige class and you can be immune to it with your capstone ability. That makes the ability balanced?

6. Actually, confusion is better than stun, because there's no immunity to confusion besides immunity to mind effects. You can hit Pale Masters with this with little issue. Confusion is not balanced simply because there's a chance that they randomly attack the nearest opponent without using any combat abilities or items or anything... That's not effective self-defense. You can confuse them, mord's them if they have TS up, then make yourself invisible and summon BBoD to just chop them into pieces. You are perfectly safe the entire time. It's not hard to figure out an easy way to win with the faerie dragon bolt, since the vast majority of characters are not innately immune to confusion (the only immunity to it is under mind efffects - so people with several monk levels, and people actively using Vehement Charge.)


1) Until you will prove me it is not balanced in a direct PvP situation on Amia, I consider your argument absolutely invalid and without value.

2) You can dispell mindblank and what? During the time it is casted, you can completely destroy caster by Implosion, Destruction, etc...

3) Word of Faith
Has been given a will save to resist.

Outsiders are instantly killed if they fail their saving throw (including player character outsiders). - This means he must have win the save roll (until you can send log where directly is said he didn't, it is considered he won. Enough said.)

4) If you are caster with low caster level, you are bad caster. Spell Resistance or not, this spell is still game-breaking as f*ck, even how it was fixed. You are giving me arguments like or globe of invulnerability, or minor globe of invulnerability, or ghostly visage potions, or spell mantle - that's not valid, as far as we gave you list of things that can block confusion bolt. Ohh, you want it straight? Dispell you and Balagarn you! Now throw me another argument, because this is YOUR argument the whole time. :roll:

5) 5 levels of prestige class against pure RP 30 caster. Still want to win this argument battle?

6) Ok, then I'll take devast-focused STR scimitar WM and chop your wizard into pieces. Same logic.

Now tell me, are you really so zealous because of this ability being -broken- as you say... Or you simply cannot accept your failure (Both in PvP and that you are wrong) and your ego just can't let anyone else to be right? You started literal war because of one defeat. Because for the first time Amia, this otherwise useless familiar destroyed someone (no matter if that was you, Virgil or absolutely anyone else). There is only ONE active Fey Dragon on Amia. It was taken by one of the best and most respected RolePlayer on Amia, that is almost never part of PvP, never abused any ability, ... And instead of saying "Ok, for the next time I will be more careful" you start this war.

Now, I'd like to hear/read your true and absolutely honest answer. What is the purpose of this? Think about it, not like I am offending you, simply think about what this means to YOU and what this means to OTHERS... Remember, true and honest answer, absolutely out of stubborn defensive stance about otherwise failed suggestion. That's all I'd like to hear. I've put my argument in, I've put my points of view on this 'balance' thread. Now it is time to calm down and seriously put your thoughts together and realize what you did here.

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#StraightOutaAvernus
 
PostPosted: Sun, Aug 21 2016, 19:04 PM 

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Location: WHY SHOULD I TELL YOU WHERE WHEN YOU'RE ABOUT TO DIE?! NGAAAAAAAAAH!!!!!

Removed last post, because the DMs already did the job.

Props. Also I agree with a fortitude save for this.

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*all right.
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Commie
 
PostPosted: Sun, Aug 21 2016, 19:13 PM 

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Holy_Avenger wrote:
MisterLich wrote:
Guardian saying that for some reason he thinks a balance suggestion is a personal attack on you Elyon, is really all that needed to be said. He openly admits he doesn't care about balance, he's just acting irrationally because he's emotionally invested to like you & dislike me.

Holy_Avenger's list of things:

1. This is not an argument or based on facts. I tested in pvp and won without effort. Next.

2. You can dispel mindblank as Elyon herself said happened during the fight. Next.

3. You're not attacking me, just offering suggestions. Though here's something you didn't realize because admittedly I forgot to mention it before. Toodles was already blinded. He failed his save against Word of Faith. Somehow he was immune to the blindness - I don't know how, the combat log didn't say anything at the time. So I actually did both of the things you suggest - blind the enemy and use mindblank - and they didn't work even with Elyon not trying to use Toodles' confuse bolt.

4. Off-topic. We're discussing one ability here. Balagarn's was actually rebalanced and it is possible to succeed the STR check as a DEX or caster build now, and similarly, I've used it to KD frost giants now. Also, against a non-caster who doesn't have high caster level, literally any spell resistance blocks it, or globe of invulnerability, or minor globe of invulnerability, or ghostly visage potions, or spell mantle.... But again, we're discussing a different ability. If you want to nerf Balagarn's, be my guest, open a Balagarn's thread.

5. OK. So 5 levels of a prestige class and you can be immune to it with your capstone ability. That makes the ability balanced?

6. Actually, confusion is better than stun, because there's no immunity to confusion besides immunity to mind effects. You can hit Pale Masters with this with little issue. Confusion is not balanced simply because there's a chance that they randomly attack the nearest opponent without using any combat abilities or items or anything... That's not effective self-defense. You can confuse them, mord's them if they have TS up, then make yourself invisible and summon BBoD to just chop them into pieces. You are perfectly safe the entire time. It's not hard to figure out an easy way to win with the faerie dragon bolt, since the vast majority of characters are not innately immune to confusion (the only immunity to it is under mind efffects - so people with several monk levels, and people actively using Vehement Charge.)


1) Until you will prove me it is not balanced in a direct PvP situation on Amia, I consider your argument absolutely invalid and without value.

2) You can dispell mindblank and what? During the time it is casted, you can completely destroy caster by Implosion, Destruction, etc...

3) Word of Faith
Has been given a will save to resist.

Outsiders are instantly killed if they fail their saving throw (including player character outsiders). - This means he must have win the save roll (until you can send log where directly is said he didn't, it is considered he won. Enough said.)

4) If you are caster with low caster level, you are bad caster. Spell Resistance or not, this spell is still game-breaking as f*ck, even how it was fixed. You are giving me arguments like or globe of invulnerability, or minor globe of invulnerability, or ghostly visage potions, or spell mantle - that's not valid, as far as we gave you list of things that can block confusion bolt. Ohh, you want it straight? Dispell you and Balagarn you! Now throw me another argument, because this is YOUR argument the whole time. :roll:

5) 5 levels of prestige class against pure RP 30 caster. Still want to win this argument battle?

6) Ok, then I'll take devast-focused STR scimitar WM and chop your wizard into pieces. Same logic.

Now tell me, are you really so zealous because of this ability being -broken- as you say... Or you simply cannot accept your failure (Both in PvP and that you are wrong) and your ego just can't let anyone else to be right? You started literal war because of one defeat. Because for the first time Amia, this otherwise useless familiar destroyed someone (no matter if that was you, Virgil or absolutely anyone else). There is only ONE active Fey Dragon on Amia. It was taken by one of the best and most respected RolePlayer on Amia, that is almost never part of PvP, never abused any ability, ... And instead of saying "Ok, for the next time I will be more careful" you start this war.

Now, I'd like to hear/read your true and absolutely honest answer. What is the purpose of this? Think about it, not like I am offending you, simply think about what this means to YOU and what this means to OTHERS... Remember, true and honest answer, absolutely out of stubborn defensive stance about otherwise failed suggestion. That's all I'd like to hear. I've put my argument in, I've put my points of view on this 'balance' thread. Now it is time to calm down and seriously put your thoughts together and realize what you did here.



Yeah.... I'm out. Peace guys.

;edited to include quote.

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MisterLich wrote:
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Last edited by Commie on Sun, Aug 21 2016, 19:54 PM, edited 1 time in total.

 
      
#StraightOutaAvernus
 
PostPosted: Sun, Aug 21 2016, 19:31 PM 

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Location: WHY SHOULD I TELL YOU WHERE WHEN YOU'RE ABOUT TO DIE?! NGAAAAAAAAAH!!!!!

Got ninja'd.

Read Holy's post.


Disappointed in a community that isn't Arelith's now. Good work.

_________________
*So, i've got a question for ya.
*do you think even the worst person can change…?
*that everyone can be a good person, if they just try?
*all right.
*well, here's a better question
*do you wanna have a bad time


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Commie
 
PostPosted: Sun, Aug 21 2016, 19:42 PM 

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Its cool,just remember not everyone here is like that.

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Naivatkal
 
PostPosted: Sun, Aug 21 2016, 20:45 PM 

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Commie wrote:
Now half of you are just insulting people. I don't get it.

My exact thoughts in this thread. I am really disappointed with more people than I should be right now.

Also, fort save vs confusion? What no, that's a Will save!

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TormakSaber
 
PostPosted: Mon, Aug 22 2016, 1:12 AM 

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This topic is over.

Several members have had their posting privileges in Improving Amia removed until further notice for their conduct in this topic, which was, frankly, disappointing.

It does not matter who or why a legitimate concern for balance is posted, only that it is posted so that it can be examined, and if necessary, changed. The vitriol that was sent towards other players simply for bringing a concern to light was absolutely uncalled for in many ways.

My suggestion to the devs and other DMs: The duration of the CC be neutered to 1 round per 10 HD of the creature, resulting in a 3 round confuse if you're a pure level 30 castr and 2 rounds if not. This seems reasonable for an ability that is coming from a creature that can be possessed and used on command and from a familiar, not a caster.

Thank you to everyone who provided discussion, insight, and testing into the ability's use. It was very helpful.

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