Joined: 15 Dec 2009 Location: The Sky Above The Rain.
Few things about UMD should be done in order to balance the possible lack of the mentioned skill.
Right now, it is unfortunate how almost every single build include rogue or bard for UMD / Tumble dump. I'll leave tumble be, for now, but UMD is really a bit far - fetched.
To counter it I propose following - merchants with random books, for starters. Yes, books - those that drop now sometimes with various spells (often low level and protective. So books with mage armor, PAA, but also flame weapon and such) and that can be used by anyone (no UMD necessary). Also, maybe a few more things like pixie dust, if it still exists (II (7) single use). Thankfully, Djinn is offering a few items which grants certain boosts for characters with no UMD, but maybe the server would benefit from fixed merchants who would offer such.
Morelike an idea for the balance -team- gurus rather than discussion, savvy?
_________________ Mercadier - *sleeps six feet under the warm sands of Khem* Alex - Life is adventure or nothing! Eddie - Sex, drugs and rock'n... more sex. ========= Obsidian (inactive)
Last edited by Guardian on Tue, Sep 20 2016, 14:36 PM, edited 1 time in total.
Joined: 10 Nov 2015 Location: WHY SHOULD I TELL YOU WHERE WHEN YOU'RE ABOUT TO DIE?! NGAAAAAAAAAH!!!!!
I can completely and wholeheartedly agree to this. You get 'so many' of those damned book drops and they're always so quickly sold off because they never really have useful spells!
Make some of those randomly generated matrix books/wands/potions useful beyond other sources outside durations. As an aside, this'll give some incentive for higher levels to occasionally use their time on weaker creatures; which will translate to incentivizing settlement RP (given most settlements have a near-by low level grind area)
Adding a few use/day items or single use ones to the Djinn couldn't hurt either.
Personal addition: I'd even add the ability for mages to 'scribe' books if they have the scribe scroll feat, beneath a certain spell level (5?), using the job system; but that's just me.
Tear down the Tome of Mystra monopoly.
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*So, i've got a question for ya. *do you think even the worst person can change…? *that everyone can be a good person, if they just try? *all right. *well, here's a better question *do you wanna have a bad time
Yup, we finally removed them completely a couple of months or so ago.
_________________ Whomst've'll'd'mn't I play: Salema Nefahri::A penny for your thots Zrae'a'stra'fryn::That which nightmares are made of Khasir::From the East a storm is coming
Joined: 15 Dec 2009 Location: The Sky Above The Rain.
Finally? They were one of the very few counters to the UMD-must-have situation.
Finally is a bit unfortunate word in this situation.
_________________ Mercadier - *sleeps six feet under the warm sands of Khem* Alex - Life is adventure or nothing! Eddie - Sex, drugs and rock'n... more sex. ========= Obsidian (inactive)
Having Premonition, Blackstaff, Spell Mantle, Keen, and Energy Buffer on a potion was a terrible idea.
II and TS, less of an issue to me. TS is prevalent on items, though.
_________________ Whomst've'll'd'mn't I play: Salema Nefahri::A penny for your thots Zrae'a'stra'fryn::That which nightmares are made of Khasir::From the East a storm is coming
Whilst I can understand the top list, why was Improved Invisibility removed as both a potion AND an item. Dust of Disappearance (1 use item) was removed at the same time as the Black label potions. Given the power of concealment this creates a large discrepancy between UMD and non-UMD users.
Joined: 15 Dec 2009 Location: The Sky Above The Rain.
Also consider things like Death Ward, essencial spell, that is unavailable to those with UMD. Lesser spell mantle is no biggy, imo, too - but granted, they exists (though it's on epic-tier items, and one high tier shield, I think?).
_________________ Mercadier - *sleeps six feet under the warm sands of Khem* Alex - Life is adventure or nothing! Eddie - Sex, drugs and rock'n... more sex. ========= Obsidian (inactive)
Dust of Disappearance was removed? That surprises me, hadn't heard of that. I was in favor of keeping II as a potion, but was far overruled.
_________________ Whomst've'll'd'mn't I play: Salema Nefahri::A penny for your thots Zrae'a'stra'fryn::That which nightmares are made of Khasir::From the East a storm is coming
Joined: 15 Dec 2009 Location: The Sky Above The Rain.
Bertnard wrote:
Having to invest just a single level to be able to use every single spell (except epic spells) in the game is bad.
Well yeah, not just spell, but an item as well. That's the bullshit of Nwn mechanics and the abuse of skill dump. As as said in my OP, tumble dump, discipline dump, UMD dump - it's all BS.
But I am not trying to change the skill dumping scenario, as it's impossible right now (due to the fact that almost everyone would request a rebuild in a matter of seconds), but I'd like to see people with no UMD having at least "some" access to vital spells. Like the mentioned Death Ward.
_________________ Mercadier - *sleeps six feet under the warm sands of Khem* Alex - Life is adventure or nothing! Eddie - Sex, drugs and rock'n... more sex. ========= Obsidian (inactive)
Whilst I can understand the top list, why was Improved Invisibility removed as both a potion AND an item. Dust of Disappearance (1 use item) was removed at the same time as the Black label potions. Given the power of concealment this creates a large discrepancy between UMD and non-UMD users.
No it wasn't.
_________________ Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham
Joined: 15 Dec 2009 Location: The Sky Above The Rain.
Even if it was not, as you say, don't you think it would be better to have it around in regular shops instead of hidden in one, maybe two places only a handful of people know about?
I mean - it is said Amia is high-magic, and it is, so stuff like pixie dust should not be really rare.
Also, please don't focus on II only. Focus on other spells that are not really high level, and yet vital for survival and unaccessible for people with no UMD atm.
_________________ Mercadier - *sleeps six feet under the warm sands of Khem* Alex - Life is adventure or nothing! Eddie - Sex, drugs and rock'n... more sex. ========= Obsidian (inactive)
As someone who pvp's a lot and monster hunts a lot I think the only spells you actually need are imp invis and haste, both of which you can just buy, and you can get in arcane or divine wand form, so if you're a cleric or druid you can get them w/o umd.
I do not feel that adding powerful spells to items is a good decision. I don't know what other spells are 'vital' for survival and unaccessible for people w/o umd, because I am clearly playing without them.
Joined: 15 Dec 2009 Location: The Sky Above The Rain.
This thread is focused, clearly, on non-caster, non-umd users. Just fyi. You're missing the point.
Commie wrote:
As someone who pvp's a lot and monster hunts a lot I think the only spells you actually need are imp invis and haste.
I am absolutely sure you'll take none of it, but I can tell you, honestly, that this is wrong.
_________________ Mercadier - *sleeps six feet under the warm sands of Khem* Alex - Life is adventure or nothing! Eddie - Sex, drugs and rock'n... more sex. ========= Obsidian (inactive)
Joined: 15 Dec 2009 Location: The Sky Above The Rain.
Not gonna spoon-feed it to you, as you're obviously missing the point. Re-read previous posts.
That said, if devs. think the balance of UMD skill is fine as it is - fair enough. I think it's not, hence the thread.
_________________ Mercadier - *sleeps six feet under the warm sands of Khem* Alex - Life is adventure or nothing! Eddie - Sex, drugs and rock'n... more sex. ========= Obsidian (inactive)
Joined: 22 Jul 2015 Location: Lincolnshire, United Kingdom
Guardian wrote:
Not gonna spoon-feed it to you, as you're obviously missing the point. Re-read previous posts.
That said, if devs. think the balance of UMD skill is fine as it is - fair enough. I think it's not, hence the thread.
To be fair, I'm with Commie.. *shudders* ... as a non UMD'er I'm curious what I'm missing out on, other than death ward which I've tried countless times to get on a divine wand without much success! (Seems i never meet the right clerics). If the argument is that things are unbalanced or not overly fair for those not using UMD, only right that we know what we should be using which everyone else with a single level in rogue or bard seems to use daily.
As i said, curious what I'm doing wrong or missing!
_________________ When it rains, look for rainbows. When it's dark, look for stars.
Joined: 15 Dec 2009 Location: The Sky Above The Rain.
You cannot use crafted wands, divine or arcane, as a non-caster class without UMD. Divine wands are usable by paladins and rangers, but then again - they do have access to spells.
So even if you find a cleric to make the wand for you - tough luck.
I understand Amia promotes power-building, it's one of the things I have to chew hard, but there should be boundaries. If people fail to see the difference of how non-umders and umders are in disbalance, it's pointless to discuss.
For funsies make a little check on how many people have builds with rogue / bard with UMD/tumble dump. I bet it's all for RP purposes.
_________________ Mercadier - *sleeps six feet under the warm sands of Khem* Alex - Life is adventure or nothing! Eddie - Sex, drugs and rock'n... more sex. ========= Obsidian (inactive)
Last edited by Guardian on Mon, Sep 19 2016, 0:17 AM, edited 1 time in total.
Not gonna spoon-feed it to you, as you're obviously missing the point. Re-read previous posts.
That said, if devs. think the balance of UMD skill is fine as it is - fair enough. I think it's not, hence the thread.
To be fair, I'm with Commie.. *shudders* ... as a non UMD'er I'm curious what I'm missing out on, other than death ward which I've tried countless times to get on a divine wand without much success! (Seems i never meet the right clerics). If the argument is that things are unbalanced or not overly fair for those not using UMD, only right that we know what we should be using which everyone else with a single level in rogue or bard seems to use daily.
As i said, curious what I'm doing wrong or missing!
I had a pally stock up my druid on 'holy sword' wands. It's quite ownage.
Joined: 22 Jul 2015 Location: Lincolnshire, United Kingdom
Guardian wrote:
You cannot use crafted wands, divine or arcane, as a non-caster class without UMD. Divine wands are usable by paladins and rangers, but then again - they do have access to spells.
So even if you find a cleric to make the wand for you - tough luck.
I understand Amia promotes power-building, it's one of the things I have to chew hard, but there should be boundaries. If people fail to see the difference of how non-umders and umders are in disbalance, it's pointless to discuss.
For funsies make a little check on how many people have builds with rogue / bard with UMD/tumble dump. I bet it's all for RP purposes.
Ah i see, ranger so i guess I'm a little easier on the play. Can say my levels are RP'd and suited to my character and i'm resisted the pull of building in a single rogue level for her!
_________________ When it rains, look for rainbows. When it's dark, look for stars.
You cannot use crafted wands, divine or arcane, as a non-caster class without UMD. Divine wands are usable by paladins and rangers, but then again - they do have access to spells.
So even if you find a cleric to make the wand for you - tough luck.
I understand Amia promotes power-building, it's one of the things I have to chew hard, but there should be boundaries. If people fail to see the difference of how non-umders and umders are in disbalance, it's pointless to discuss.
For funsies make a little check on how many people have builds with rogue / bard with UMD/tumble dump. I bet it's all for RP purposes.
Ah i see, ranger so i guess I'm a little easier on the play. Can say my levels are RP'd and suited to my character and i'm resisted the pull of building in a single rogue level for her!
iirc because you are a ranger with divine spell casting you can use any divine wand in the game. If you find a cleric with improved invis or haste or a pally, and any of them have craft wand, you can just use the wands they make. It's very helpful.
Joined: 15 Dec 2009 Location: The Sky Above The Rain.
Commie wrote:
iirc because you are a ranger with divine spell casting you can use any divine wand in the game. If you find a cleric with improved invis or haste or a pally, and any of them have craft wand, you can just use the wands they make. It's very helpful.
Actually a good point, since i've seen wands with haste on them useable by divine classes, yet the last time a cleric was making wands for me, those with Death Ward were useable by divine classes (per standard setting), but those with haste (he had a domain with haste spell) were arcane only (mage / bard / sorc) for some reason.
Maybe worthy of investigation.
_________________ Mercadier - *sleeps six feet under the warm sands of Khem* Alex - Life is adventure or nothing! Eddie - Sex, drugs and rock'n... more sex. ========= Obsidian (inactive)
Nope. If it comes from a divine source it stays divine forever.
My druid characters, neither had UMD but both had stacks of wands of "arcane" spells like haste and whatnot, made by a cleric with the right domains and craft wand. There was a halfling selling them in Bendir not too long ago.
Joined: 15 Dec 2009 Location: The Sky Above The Rain.
Curious. Must have been something connected to the newly added domains (that haste was from Time domain, I believe). Or maybe I've just mistaken the wands (got two slots filled with bags filled with wands).
Nontheless, I propose following :
- Add Death Ward potions to vendors (hag, temples etc...) - Add wands and books with no restriction for use and with random properties to vendors (vendors that already offer random stuff, like the Thayan guy in Zanshibon or fences in Cordor) - As SOA mentioned, a custom feat to write books (similiar to write scrolls, with the exception that there would be no class restriction) for arcane / divine casters, eventually a job system that would allow such, would be neat - Pixie dust (or any other item with II on it) as a standard issue in shops (Hil'Rash would be great as he's the main point of business still), as Naiv mentioned II's a no go on pots for some reason
Surely not balance-breaking or game-breaking, I think.
Thoughts?
_________________ Mercadier - *sleeps six feet under the warm sands of Khem* Alex - Life is adventure or nothing! Eddie - Sex, drugs and rock'n... more sex. ========= Obsidian (inactive)
Joined: 15 Dec 2009 Location: The Sky Above The Rain.
Was cleric of Grumbar, with Time domain. That much I'm sure of.
_________________ Mercadier - *sleeps six feet under the warm sands of Khem* Alex - Life is adventure or nothing! Eddie - Sex, drugs and rock'n... more sex. ========= Obsidian (inactive)
Joined: 01 May 2009 Location: GMT-8 Bangor, Washington
How does suddenly flooding the market with availability of items that UMDers use fix the root problem of people maxing out skills with only one level in the class that skill is for in any way? If anything I would think it exacerbates the issue because now people won't even have to invest that 1-3 levels in that class and can dump those skill points into other things if they want (assuming UMD), and they still get access to these abilities you think its unreasonable for them to be running around with with no legit training in?
Not trying to be argumentative or sarcastic, so please don't take this as such, I legitimately am confused as to how this would fix the problem of a bunch of untrained people running around with a bunch of mid level spell abilities.
_________________ Sir Taelar Ardelyn of Wiltun Winner of the Razor Tongued Award 2015!
Joined: 15 Dec 2009 Location: The Sky Above The Rain.
maglorine wrote:
I'd rather we spend time thinking of ways to fix skill dumping.
Absolutely agree with this. But I did not dare to even suggest it.
Since you be balsier (that a word?) than me, yes - fix skill dumping and you fix UMD as well, among other things.
DolphinRacer wrote:
How does suddenly flooding the market with availability of items that UMDers use fix the root problem of people maxing out skills with only one level in the class that skill is for in any way? If anything I would think it exacerbates the issue because now people won't even have to invest that 1-3 levels in that class and can dump those skill points into other things if they want (assuming UMD), and they still get access to these abilities you think its unreasonable for them to be running around with with no legit training in?
Yeah, the name of the thread is slightly misleading. I was trying to propose changes that would help non-umd users breathe a little easier.
Nontheless, if people are okay with skill dump discussion, I'm more than glad to see it, because I think it's one of the worst things in nwn settings.
Personally, the scenario in which you HAVE to assign all your skill points upon leveling is much more appealing to me, with the exception of cross-class skills (fighter / intimidate for WM).
_________________ Mercadier - *sleeps six feet under the warm sands of Khem* Alex - Life is adventure or nothing! Eddie - Sex, drugs and rock'n... more sex. ========= Obsidian (inactive)
Last edited by Guardian on Tue, Sep 20 2016, 15:00 PM, edited 1 time in total.
Well.... I'm not giving an opinion on it either way, but, I will say that this is about oh... 12 years too late? I'd guess that 90% of the server would want to rebuild their characters. Just isn't a feasible thing to change, but, that's just me!
Joined: 15 Dec 2009 Location: The Sky Above The Rain.
That Guy wrote:
I'd guess that 90% of the server would want to rebuild their characters.
My thoughts exactly. And so is my point - there's severe case of Skill dump (ab)use.
And better to fix something 12 years later than letting it rot.
_________________ Mercadier - *sleeps six feet under the warm sands of Khem* Alex - Life is adventure or nothing! Eddie - Sex, drugs and rock'n... more sex. ========= Obsidian (inactive)
Well.. perhaps -want- to rebuild is the wrong term, if we had to use each point on level up, every time, thus no skill dumping, 90% of the server would be REQUIRED to rebuild. To me? At this point? That's a huge time suck on the DM team. We don't have that many, and we are trying to get them to handle personal requests, spend time with us ingame, dole out some DC's, and handle all the petty quarrels that happen around here. Their hands are already full, I can't see rebuilding, what... 300? 500? Characters immediately being something we need to ask them for.
I get what you're going after Guardian, I really do, but... the monumental task you're asking for, combined with a dwindling population already, might simply be the same as pulling the plug. I for one, don't see enough -good- coming from doing this to make the enormous effort worthwhile.
Edit! Not to mention that at this point, I do believe server monster mobs are balanced around people having tumble and things of the sort. So... skill dumping is literally built into Amia. Removing it would mean remaking much if not all of the dungeon areas. Though, I could be wrong.
Joined: 25 Oct 2008 Location: In my own little world.
This might just be me here, but it seems to me that giving mid-level spells or any other use of items that UMD would allow a person to characters that do not have UMD is simply adding to the problem of making spellcasters useless. Isn't that what the server was trying to get away from when they took out all those beautiful yet overpowered suites of armor like arcane defiance plate? All those items that granted abilities or effects that rendered spellcasters abilities either completley useless or next to it?
As it sits now, yes there are skill dumps, but to allow characters to act as mid level spellcasters without the in-character training to control it is basically just replacing the usefullness of low to midlevel casters as a whole. You would be neutering rp and usefullness of spellcasters just so non-UMD users can have access to those spells.
Rp more, get a spell caster friend to hunt with you, or go without. Just my opinion.
I myself am actually curious as to the hate on skill dumping. I mean if you don't wanna do it then don't. Calling it abuse is sorta like calling people who do cheaters. I've played on servers where it wasn't allowed and the game was no less fun. I'm just curious as to why it matters so much. Hell, even 10 points in UMD is enough to use all scrolls, wands, etc. so...
I myself am actually curious as to the hate on skill dumping. I mean if you don't wanna do it then don't. Calling it abuse is sorta like calling people who do cheaters. I've played on servers where it wasn't allowed and the game was no less fun. I'm just curious as to why it matters so much. Hell, even 10 points in UMD is enough to use all scrolls, wands, etc. so...
I have to agree here, and also.. the people hating on it, very likely partook in it. It's a thing that some servers don't allow, but this one does. It changes building, drastically, and it changes the way devs think of areas too, so it's a very far-reaching change to go to "no skill pooling allowed".
Joined: 10 Nov 2015 Location: WHY SHOULD I TELL YOU WHERE WHEN YOU'RE ABOUT TO DIE?! NGAAAAAAAAAH!!!!!
Huh Reading up and me and Guardian agree on something. This pleases me.
Anyway, personally I don't think that the UMD debate is as huge a thing to worry about, as I've said before -- which isn't even just intervening on discussing nerfing it. Osiris has no UMD, but I've seen him mop the floor of folk and bosses that I've struggled to dispose of; and they've found use/day sources for virtually any spell (albeit with difficulty). It's not powerful enough to justify its removal, but it's a convenience enough (in not needing to quickbar boots, necklaces, etc.) that it leaves some love to be desired for the true heroes of the server that are willing to deprive themselves of it in the name of build individuality and roleplay.
I'm still all for the book idea though, because I think it would actually enhance RP and bridge the differences between skilldumps and the lack thereof, while not destroying the market mages who have invested in feats for crafting have. Make it take all three crafting feats to produce them and make them be found in chests, with a cap of 10-20 uses before expiration. That way it's still hard to get and difficult to maintain off of, so nobody that has invested feels cheapened.
Keeps wands/scrolls/potions useful due to manageable space in the inventory/weight/spell availability/usage ease; but also makes it possible to run a non UMD build without a friend.
As for the big "spells used by non-casters" debate? Honestly? There's no reason for this to be a thing. FR, DnD, and NWN are actively multiplayer settings which should encourage group dungeoning/RP/PvP, but you won't always have a Mage for any of these. Trust me when I say a mage makes a HUGE difference in a party already.
My point is.. midlevel spell items/widgets, UMD, potions; It's not trivializing mages to have UMD, it's making the game playable in their absence. Things like durations, dispel ease, and DCs make all the difference -- even forgetting that acquiring items takes a lot of money.
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Joined: 15 Dec 2009 Location: The Sky Above The Rain.
#StraightOutaAvernus wrote:
My point is.. midlevel spell items/widgets, UMD, potions; It's not trivializing mages to have UMD, it's making the game playable in their absence.
This is right.
With the exception that with UMD you can use basically anything, summon 9 lvl minions, shoot spells like Implosion and Weil of Banshee / BBoD and all it takes is a few skill points save and one class level. Which, I think, is wrong, because UMD as it is now, with the server settings where you can get anything from the right vendor / player, not only trivializing mages, it's making them literally obsolete in some cases.
I'm having zero to none hopes of re-work on UMD, as much as I'd love to see it, but I remain confident that this ...
Guardian wrote:
- Add Death Ward potions to vendors (hag, temples etc...) - Add wands and books with no restriction for use and with random properties to vendors (vendors that already offer random stuff, like the Thayan guy in Zanshibon or fences in Cordor) - As SOA mentioned, a custom feat to write books (similiar to write scrolls, with the exception that there would be no class restriction) for arcane / divine casters, eventually a job system that would allow such, would be neat - Pixie dust (or any other item with II on it) as a standard issue in shops (Hil'Rash would be great as he's the main point of business still), as Naiv mentioned II's a no go on pots for some reason
... should be at least considered.
_________________ Mercadier - *sleeps six feet under the warm sands of Khem* Alex - Life is adventure or nothing! Eddie - Sex, drugs and rock'n... more sex. ========= Obsidian (inactive)
My point is.. midlevel spell items/widgets, UMD, potions; It's not trivializing mages to have UMD, it's making the game playable in their absence.
This is right.
Guardian wrote:
- Add wands and books with no restriction for use and with random properties to vendors (vendors that already offer random stuff, like the Thayan guy in Zanshibon or fences in Cordor) - As SOA mentioned, a custom feat to write books (similiar to write scrolls, with the exception that there would be no class restriction) for arcane / divine casters, eventually a job system that would allow such, would be neat
... should be at least considered.
What would casters even be for then if you could get any spell on a Wand or book "without restriction?"
Joined: 15 Dec 2009 Location: The Sky Above The Rain.
FYI, wands have limits on which spells you can add to them.
Naturally, from the context you could have picked that the books would work same as the wands, with same limits, only without class restriction and hence with no UMD requirement.
Therefore, UMD users would still have the upper-hand. Only not so much upper as it is now.
Commie wrote:
What would casters even be for then if you could get any spell on a Wand or book "without restriction?"
... with the fact that 90% of current builds have UMD, you really think the above question is valid? C'mon.
_________________ Mercadier - *sleeps six feet under the warm sands of Khem* Alex - Life is adventure or nothing! Eddie - Sex, drugs and rock'n... more sex. ========= Obsidian (inactive)
Last edited by Guardian on Tue, Sep 20 2016, 19:44 PM, edited 1 time in total.
Joined: 15 Dec 2009 Location: The Sky Above The Rain.
High level wards?
Death Ward - cleric 4; druid 5; paladin 4; (unavailable on pots) Improved Invisibility - bard 4; sorcerer/wizard 4; cleric 5 (with the right domain) - Unavailable on pots, but not as vital as DW
Now we have, from the top of my head :
Mindblank - sorcerer/wizard !8! (available on pots) Freedom of Movement - cleric 4; druid 4; paladin 4; ranger 4; cleric (available on pots) Negative energy protection (immunity to ability drain (making poison of any kind obsolete) / level drain) - available on pots, level 4 spell
Flawed arguments, Com, no one requests BL pots with Spell mantle or Premonition. I ask for pots with Death Ward.
The lack of DW on anything UMD-free have no real justification.
_________________ Mercadier - *sleeps six feet under the warm sands of Khem* Alex - Life is adventure or nothing! Eddie - Sex, drugs and rock'n... more sex. ========= Obsidian (inactive)
Joined: 10 Nov 2015 Location: WHY SHOULD I TELL YOU WHERE WHEN YOU'RE ABOUT TO DIE?! NGAAAAAAAAAH!!!!!
Yep. Again, he ain't wrong.
-and actually, honestly speaking in a party? Casters mostly 'do' serve the purpose of longer-lasting wards, and for that matter ones that are renewable, don't require knowing someone with the job system, production of the wands/pots/scrolls to begin with, don't take up inventory space, don't require payment of coin, and if they're damage shields/AC/DR they usually provide a 'HUGE' amount more in those areas (#CantScrollMagicVestment #CantWandGreaterMagicWeapon #FlameweaponScrollsAreBad).
In PvP and against bosses? Their role now is 'massively' expanded by the new caster buffs; and when Freedom of Movement stops being a permanent thing on anything but master scout builds (a rarity); they're going to get even stronger.
These things doubtlessly make the difference -- and it's for the same reason that I agree with Guardian that it won't break the game to make multiple charge versions of the staple midlevelbuffs available to people (albeit with way less convenience and with a bit more expense than UMD items) who don't want to class dip; that I'll also disagree with him in UMD trivializing the caster class, since Implosion, Wail of the Banshee and what-have-you in scroll form are all capable of being passed by a mid teens 'recommended button' character with at least 10 in every stat.
I'm not going to travel the Abyss alone as a Barbarian/Fighter/Weaponmaster just because I have the ability to improved invis myself for 7 rounds.
I'm going to go do the Giants for gold still, because it's literally wasteful and requires needless amounts of attention to the game to struggle with pulling out literal 5-10 pound books with 15 charges a pop instead of just hitting up my level 27 mage that can keep me hasted for the same amount of time with 4 spell slots.
TLDR; PvM casters never haven't been ward-jockeys. This isn't breaking or changing anything.
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