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I guess I didn't get anyone inspired to in my last thread.
In forward: Shadowdancer is actually already a great class...
... until level 11.
Its summon has staggering DCs that are unfortunately hard-countered for the low low cost of 860 gold pieces; combined with a low AB that makes its stat cuts proc almost never -- which means less than Blackguard and PM, the post epic incentives for Shadowdancer are underwhelming.
I have a few ideas cooked up that could probably be done without hack or code changes that'll encourage moving beyond that 10 level point, or the infamous 6 dip.
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I think that if you're going to give the shadowdancer an incremental bonus to hide/ms as it takes more epic levels it should be done in increments of +2 instead of +5, because otherwise you hit +10 for two ranks of it and the numbers can start to get astronomical.
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They aren't all 5, but I agree. The current amounts are just filler to give an idea of the distribution it should have. Making it even would risk putting too much weight at levels which already have incentive!
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I don't know about spot, but 'unbeatable' hide skills don't strike me as a problem. As it stands, Shadowdancers have two gimmicks. One of them is countered by a simple potion and the other, from what I understand, is so easy to overcome that more than half the server can just gear to exceed it, rendering it useless. Shadowdancers...hide. It's their thing. I think at the very least they should be able to ignore Bioware TS at high levels (especially since only a precious few things on the server even have it anymore), and if you're going to invest so heavily as to be a 20th-level shadowdancer, you should damn well be able to hide from nearly anyone, because at that point it's almost certain you can't do anything else.
Alternatively to a straight Hide boost, I think a 'Shadow Cloak' widget at Epic SD levels that, instead of giving YOU a Hide boost, gives everyone ELSE a spot penalty would be an interesting feature. Making it train-only like Shadowjump might encourage RP on its own...although I know historically that has its own history of issues.
Think of it this way. As it stands, if you're not already a spot build, buffing SDs wouldn't affect you at all. You couldn't see them then, you can't see them now, and certain counters that don't rely on spotting would still function (aside from turning into a dragon, I suppose, if ignoring TS is feasible). However, for defense against 'spot builds' - which is anyone with access to basic gear and a skilldump level - it makes the difference between 24 x/6 SD, 20x/10 SD, and 10x/20 SD very much notable in a clearly demonstrable way aside from the epic summon, which again is countered by a potion you need to un-hide to dispel anyway.
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t o u c h e d wrote:
MisterLich wrote:
I dunno. Wouldn't shadowdancers have like, unbeatable spot/MS then? I don't love that idea.
As it stands now, don't wisdom based spotters have unbeatable spot?
Yep. With minimal effort.
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t o u c h e d wrote:
Bertnard wrote:
Umber Hulk... There is no reason to buff Hide/MS as long as we have "that umber hulk thing with bioware true seeing"
I think that was removed? And what else would you suggest, for higher level SD? It's certainly lacking in its current state.
In a rare twist of the hour, I'm gonna have to agree with her here.
ultimately, the proposal is meant to incentivize level increments outside of the traditional "6 or 10" mindset; since the class lacks what other PRCs have to incentivize these 'outside the norm curve' amounts. Even RDD can now be easily and reasonably taken to 4th, any multiple of 5, 7, and even 18 while the levels themselves never start to become 'empty' (huge props! good change).
I guess I should be transparent in saying I'm an advocate of incentivizing class-spread flexibility to diversify the builds which are made and 'can' be made viably for a flexible PvM/PvP switch-role construction that suits the character role-play.
What I'm trying to look for here are definite ways we can achieve that -- preferably which are able to be handled in the same way RDD was (I.e: a quick script that applies a hide item/stat bonus/stat penalty and requires no change in hacks and no intensive work).
What we need isn't wether something in the suggestion isn't specifically a 'good plan' so much as what 'is'; which isn't to say that constructively stating what is wrong and proposing fixes or alternatives is bad.
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Shadowdancer isn't bad off until you are over 10. The progressions on Daze and the Shadow Summon already make sense. You've got some potential ideas there but it's simply too much and you are treading on the specialties of other classes. Here’s what I like, and it's 100% in the Epic SD range:
Skills: +1 Hide/Move Silently for each level above 10. This allows SD specialists to be the premier hide/move class. Right now other classes can equal them, classes that have other purposes.
Spell Likes:(SD level is CL and all are Shadow related) Lesser Shadow Conjuration at 11 Greater Shadow Conjuration at 15, Lesser x2 Shades at 20, Greater x2, Lesser x3.
Shadowjump: +1 uses/day for each level above 10 instead of having the progression stop at 10.
Shadow Evade: Instead of a fixed uses/day at all levels. +1 Use at 15. +1 Use at 20.
No trap skills, no sneak attack, no pick lock, no search. Invading the rogues skill territory is a no no. Especially since SD will now top them in pure hide/move.
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maglorine wrote:
Shadowjump: +1 uses/day for each level above 10 instead of having the progression stop at 10.
Shadow Evade: Instead of a fixed uses/day at all levels. +1 Use at 15. +1 Use at 20.
Sensible, most of your points and analysis and the progression change to cram after 10 makes sense since that's what it's there to fix primarily; but the parts I left in the quotations, I don't actually know if they're possible due to the way they work.
Could be wrong though. In which case I'm all for more uses of shadow jump.
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On the assumption something like this is even going to be done, I think it should be on par with RDD changes. That being, the biggest bonus coming at 15 and 18 SD, rather than 20. On 18 RDD, they get 100% immunity to the corresponding element, 32 SR, 1 AC, 2 con, 2 cha, and the requested vfx change. 20 is 1 more AC. Only a thought!
Forcing those last 10 levels (21-30) to be SD, rather than 8 or 9, would be lame. We all skilldump. And it looks like RDD was tailored to do that as well. And even to fit in a proper 10/2/18.
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I once again totally agree.
Stuff that isn't made available to everyone might as well be available to nobody, and therefore considering +2 ECL races I say blam every idea that sets a level 19 or 20 capstone
Having a small hide bonus at 20 (or the sneak attacks I mentioned) is fine or something, because it then adds an incentive not to skill dump but it also doesn't shit on people otherwise.
I.e: Skill dump and non 20 lvl isn't objectively 100% weaker; it's still not frowned on, and nor are ECL races.
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Depends on your approach mav!
I actively disagree it would take a hak change, and I have a citation: Arelith
Its Shadowdancer gains a 'soft' bonus (same as gear) to both skills of 1 for every SD level. It uses the same script they do for their warlocks' DR (a mistake but still relevant), as well as their fighter bonuses (fighter there gets an AC bonus on top of its existing AC on helmet, armor, and shield; so a fighter wearing +3 armor as a level 20 fighter counts as wearing +5); all of which either apply an onheartbeat effect or a hide item.
It's perfectly possible, it just requires a few scripts that I assumed the RDD here used; and even with me being wrong, the server's entire script set is publicly posted for download there and open use IIRC
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I meant in more regards to adding in all these feats and spell-like abilities on a whim. Which isn't something I would go about doing anyway. Adding attributes, ac, and other simpler stuff is possible.
As a 20 SD player, I think to make Epic SD viable there are so much more, tinier things that can be changed to make the class more viable. You don't need to make SD a Rogue MKII to achieve, in fact I'm vehemently against doing that at all.
SD has an arsenal of 3 unique abilities (excluding Shadowjump) that make the class lackluster:
1. Shadow Daze. Mind blank and you win. 2. Shadow Evade. Boosts are relatively short and insignificant/unviable to constantly use. 3. Summon Shadow. NEP and you win.
I had hoped following the last Shadowdancer discussion, wherein NEP potions got nerfed, that the class would be more viable. It isn't. Mindblanks cripple one of SD's most useful utilities and NEP potions cripple considerably the effectiveness of the Epic Shadelord.
How do we fix the class?
Simple. Work around the simple methods of nullifying the Shadowdancer's uniqueness. If I said to you we should get consumable potions that give us max SR, you'd call me insane, but this is basically the same principle as that. If you go for any build that isn't 4 Ftr/6 Rogue/20 SD for a 20 SD, you're crippled, useless in combat. Pure epic SD is lackluster in situations due to low AB. The amazing thing is, if you uncripple Shadow Daze and the Shade and you buff what Shadow Evade can do, you'd have a viable epic class.
I'd be extremely surprised if any DM was against buffing the SD's abilities/usefulness, considering how much Dragon Disciples get pumped full of amazing buffs, even more so at epic levels now.
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I have a few RDD's. They are not "pumped to amazing levels". The increase to stats only makes them a little less shit. Sorry. It's a shit build. It will never be amazing. It's got dev crit and dev crit. Using them as a comparison is awful. The epic shadow lord doesn't really need much tweaking, in my opinion, as it's designed to supplement the character, not be able to solo bosses. The low AB and "potion solution" only applies to pvp. Pve it's a wonderful summon. Truly, none of the summons are amazing in PVP, nor should they be. I can get behind making SD's harder to spot, as investing heavilly into hide/ms by feat and by gear, severely cripples a character, especially in the save department. Just my thoughts. I don't mean to sound all "Rawr" about the Rdd's, but really they aren't that great.
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Please roll a 18+ SD and tell me this applies to CR 21+ pve monsters.
In reference to RDDs, yeah pure RDD is still outclassed by powerbuild RDDs, but all epic SD can do is hide with mediocre damage with easy to shut down abilities. Assassins at this point have better pve and pvp abilities.
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This is only my opinion, and I'm very tired, so excuse the rant: D&D is a party game. Each character brings it's own unique set of skills and abilities to the table. You almost always need a rogue or someone with heavy leanings towards certain abilities. There are ways around it. Clerics have a spell that finds traps and wizards have knock. KNock..which is useless on Amia. The point is, every character has it's use. Here we have allowed for (I swear this is the last time I will say it) skill dumping. Some folks will say dip, but dipping is taking a level of rogue and investing the points earned that level on a desired skill. DUmping is hoarding enough points to effectively outmode an entire class by dumping epic levels of skills with only one or two levels. This is why your balance is all messed up. This is why "pure class rogues" (God bless you Jackie) are not commonly found. You can get all the desired skills and manage a full AB character with the desired skills and a higher hit die. This is why I will stand behind skills that will make a shadowdancer hide better, but complaining that they aren't as effective at killing people and things as an Assassin...someone who has trained exclusively to kill, seems a rather odd arguement, given the vast difference in class RP. Please do find a way to improve SD, but I think giving it a stronger summon isn't the best way to do it. Also...it's only lacking in ability because SD's don't have means to buff it. It's still better than a lot of existing epic summons.
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It's still better than a lot of existing epic summons.
I'm sorry, I was going to try and not continue a debate over this but when you said this comment... no.
Can Epic Shadelord theoretically kill things quicker than nearly every epic summon? Yeah, because of how its stat drain/instant death mechanics work. But the issue is nearly everything that drops +4 lootbin are immune to this. In a PvP scenario, fighting an Epic Summon of EMD/EDK, end-game Palemaster summons and, hell, even certain familiars can cause a good fight even against the strongest of powerbuilds. But Epic Shadelord is just... so ridiculously easy to counter and even more so since all of its counters cost 1738 gp from your nearest potion vendor. Something is wrong in this regard.
Does it rip through mobs like Gnolls? Yeah, it's quite hilarious really, but this is an EPIC summon, ripping through +3s is the least you'd expect. But it really falls short of anything else, anything that is either buffed up with NEP, can be buffed with it or is just plain immune will not have their stats drop and will not proc the instant kill effect when they hit 0 in those stats. Am I suggesting we buff Epic Shadelord to instant kill everything? Definitely not, that'd be absurd. I'm suggesting that the Epic Shadelord needs utility. We discussed this matter a couple of years ago, and a well-agreed upon mechanic was that Epic Shadelord (SD 11+ variants) would be able to strip away these protections to allow it viability to at least do /some/ damage. Ofc, the opponent could always pot up/cast more buffs, but this at least gives the Shadelord a use on a party-wide aspect.
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D&D is a party game.
It's a party game where the highest level SD the party /wants/ is 6 SD. Anything above 6 SD is literally for fluff at this point as you're basically playing a considerably more gimped version of any 6 SD powerbuild.
As I suggested to people 2 years ago, if you don't believe me how underwhelming Epic Shadowdancers are, role one. Amazing RP from both the Academy and individual players, but by god does it suck being lackluster against anything that isn't another Epic Shadowdancer.
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The Epic Shadowlord is more powerful, if unbuffed than the Sirrush, Construct, Elemental, Githzerai Savant, All BG summons except the Lawful One, The Death Domain "Reaper", Most Druid and Ranger companions. I know this because as well as having an Epic Dancer, I also have all of these. I also have a Palemaster with a Winterwight, an LE Blackguard with the Amnizu (which is no shit, the best Summon in game) as well as numerous casters with EMD, and EDK. I have a Cleric with 4 Epic Summons. I am more than intimate with summons and how they function. Against any opponent that is worth anything, None of these are even a mild threat in PVP, nor should they be anything but a distraction.
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Commie wrote:
doesn't a bubbily pretty much negate most of the epic shadowlord?
Yes. That of course is PVP. Normal mobs don't chug bubblies.. Thats if the damn thing is lucky enough to hit you. It has pretty average AB for a summon. I get what Kamina is trying to say, but SD is not a summoning class. They don't have epic focus in conjuration. They aren't casters which have dedicated decades to spellcraft, summoning or anything to that sort. Epic Shadowlord is an Amian bonus. Hell. At least you don't lose xp when it is dismissed like you are supposed to. Something to look at is the "Shadow Illusion" ability that SD's pick up at lvl 3, where they can create illusions. Come up with something reasonable and apply it to a widget. Rather than complain about a decent summon you aren't supposed to have anyway. The "Epic Shadowlord" I assume is supposed to represent the +1 ab/2hd per level growth that the vanilla summon is supposed to recieve. Isn't it actually supposed to be an undead?
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Let's not imply shadow dancer doesn't need buffs, and overlook the fact that its summon isn't exactly much more than disgraceful outside of stuff that a bubbly potion completely negates.
I, for one, consider dedicated summoners to be a garbage excuse for building and balance. You can't win without making them better than the character is
There's some revision due for the summon though, to be fair. It's close to the investment involved in getting Winterwight if you want full strength from it; and it's highly underwhelming for that fact. What we're looking at isn't strictly that, though; because I believe a build shouldn't be reliant on a feat that it by all intents and purposes doesn't have to take. Although, personally, as long as we're looking at what we think should be done to the summon; my mind is enjoying the idea of ripping apart the code behind this and putting it on a cool down with VFX.
I'm not a dev though, and my current attempts at toying with the NWScript are so far atrocious, so I'm probably not in line to become one either. Damage seems to be a mentioned problem for the average shadow dancer; so (barring the suggested progression in my OP) what is it that we can do to increase the output of the class without making it 100% superior to rogue?
Note that while the progression I proposed ends it off at 5d6, you're only pulling 1d6 all the way until 20th; at which point you've gimped yourself and deserve a big boost, considering 20 levels is quintessentially the surrendering of all PvP viability against anyone with knockdown and a true strike.
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*Sighs* This is like saying "Bards need work, because they aren't good at pvp." Some classes simply aren't supposed to be. If you think that D&D needs that kind of balance, then.. Nevermind. I'm just an old guy. I feel like this excessive focus on pvp comes from a younger mindset where World of Warcraft and League of Legends like balance is created for the pvp environment. *edit* Again, if any class should get an astronomical hide score, without having to gear for it, it should be SD's. Hiding and manipulation of the battlefield (creating confusion) is what they train for. Wisdom spotters often get spot checks in the 120's, to beat this, you basically make your character weaker in every aspect. So I do agree with a lot of what is being said, but low damage output, unfortunately is what keep the class from becoming over powered. You really can't (only in my opinion) justify giving a character that can in fact hide from most of the PC's and all non trueseeing NPC's, at the drop of a hat, shadow jump, has very high AC and damage mitigation, and an epic summon,more damage. Damage, that isn't really that terrible to begin with when buffed by a cleric or mage. SD's can already solo most of the server if they use a bow, it just takes a while.
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What about a requestable spell widget for the monster abilities shadowblend, shadow attack or any of the drain (ability or level) bolts for x uses per day, at levels... 18 to 20?
I'm sure that would create some great RP and flesh out shadow dancers even more. It might give some incentive to go past level 6 other than the shade.
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That exists, its called spell widget (Whether we approve it or not - haven't looked over those in particular yet - is another matter, but spell widgets are open to anyone, not just sorcs/wizards/clerics, provided the request makes sense)
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I had mentioned making a widget for "Shadow Illusion" earlier. Would making a hostile copy of the caster (or 3), that doesn't do actual damage, but doesn't take any with a minimal cooldown be approved? Pve it would take the heat off of the Shadowdancer, and PVP it could cause confusion.
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Just gonna throw this out there, on your bard comment: a bard is perfectly capable of being built for PvP. Player incompetence isn't equitable to a class' worthlessness/lack thereof.
I'm not asking to 'balance for PvP' -- 'PvM based balance' is literally unintelligent, and is simply an excuse to say 'this CAN work at times and certain uses of it are powerful so it's fine'. We're not asking if the applicant for the new job is capable of carrying up to 30 pounds, we're asking if he can consistently carry that weight or more.
Objectively a class that can't be built to hold its own in both is a terrible option.
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#StraightOutaAvernus wrote:
Just gonna throw this out there, on your bard comment: a bard is perfectly capable of being built for PvP. Player incompetence isn't equitable to a class' worthlessness/lack thereof.
I'm not asking to 'balance for PvP' -- 'PvM based balance' is literally unintelligent, and is simply an excuse to say 'this CAN work at times and certain uses of it are powerful so it's fine'. We're not asking if the applicant for the new job is capable of carrying up to 30 pounds, we're asking if he can consistently carry that weight or more.
Objectively a class that can't be built to hold its own in both is a terrible option.
You missed the point entirely. Though did so quite eloquently.
But certain mobs are immune, these mobs being the main mobs you'd kill being an epic SD.
Quote:
but SD is not a summoning class.
But what IS a Summoning class? You could literally name any class that summons things and I will make plenty of counter arguments. Yeah, maybe SD isn't on par with casters and their summons, but fact of the matter is they have a summon.
Quote:
They don't have epic focus in conjuration. They aren't casters which have dedicated decades to spellcraft, summoning or anything to that sort.
I'll assume this is a generic statement, as I know of at least 1 SD PC invested in specialising in Shade Summoning
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At least you don't lose xp when it is dismissed like you are supposed to.
Citation?
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Isn't it actually supposed to be an undead?
I suggest looking at the Three Steps Academy on an IC and OOC level if this is your thoughts.
I'll be honest, a lot of what you said I'm trying to let slide. The Improvements subsection is not for debates. However, I am going to try and steer DMs from information I don't think is entirely correct or accurate, so here are some simple facts:
The issue with SD is not their Hide/MS ability. Yeah, they can be caught out by a Wis-built spotter, but that's solely how mechanics work. Increasing their Hide/MS will be a boon but completely ignores the fundamental aspects of what an SD is. So let me try to explain why I think SD is long overdue some sort of overhaul. Think of Rogue and think of Assassin, the two other "sneaker" classes (objectively Monk and Ranger but let's not go in to that). Rogue is a jack of all trades, their large skillset allows them to be very flexible in their role. Their large range on what they can do, from lockpicking to sneaking to devastating sneak attacks makes them good, obviously pure rogue will have AB issues, however. Assassin is equally good, benefiting from their Assassin widget. What they lack in skill diversity they have in potential swift one-on-one kills. Their Murder setting has an interesting point that I'll bring up in a bit.
So fundamentally what does SD to offer? Not much past level 6. Sure, as I mentioned before Theoretical devastating capabilities of the Shade is not something to overlook, but by the time it gets "OP", the Mobs it's "OP" on are worthless. "Dipping" in to SD vastly outnumbers those that take it to 10, let alone 18+. So I ask what IS a SD's role? It seems like, judging from your previous statements you want it to be a Rogue-lite. Lore-wise there's a metric tonne of potential to better SDs.
Let's say we go through with some sort of Hide/MS buff per level, what then? You've got a very subpar Rogue who happens to be able to HiPS with a Summon that you're restricted to certain mobs to fully utilise. Am I saying SDs need to become Caster-tier terms of solo abilities and sheer power? No. What I am saying is that SDs are a dip class, and any attempt to say otherwise I'll laugh off. Tarnus briefly mentioned that DC requests are a thing and I, myself, have an ability exclusive to my SD, but this does not fix the glaring problems of SD. SD needs a role, much like Rogue is specialised in being a living multitool and an Assassin taking an opponent by surprise one-on-one. SDs are roleless, and until they have a role they will remain a dip class, with the exception of those willing to put mechanics aside.
SD is amazing due to it being one of the few true sandbox PrCs you can take, but until some major improvements take place, the ever-vast 6 SD "Shadowjump pls" HiPSers will always outnumber those who take it to Epic level.
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I understand the desire to make it a better epic class. I am genuinely interested in anything that can be done to help that doesn't pervert it into an "Amian" class and a complete departure from the source. It is admittedly one of the worst prestige classes to follow, even in PnP, where rogues/ bards will take a two level dip just to get HiPS. I honestly could have sworn that in the source, the summoned shadow and shadowlord were undead and if it was destroyed you lose xp. This of course may just be in later editions than 3.5, as my brain gets muddled with that sometimes. The only reason I am not more sympathetic to the summon plight, is that player characters suffer the same issue in epic levels. 99.5% of your spells become potato, as the saves become to high and you end up buffing/hasting the party and then hide behind a BBoD while invisible. Palemaster gets shut down if someone has a wand of deathward. Barbarians and Enchanters get whipped by mindblanks. It's a high magic setting..these are problems not isolated just to one summon. Because of the lax rules involved in skill dumping here, an SD can become just as adept at traps, locks and the like as any rogue a simple dump at later levels ensures that. Ultimately, what SD is lacking is damage output. Especially if you decided to go epic with it, as dexers thrive on sneaks and SD gets no sneak bonus. This is a concious effort made to gain the epic summon. The only thing I saw was that when they revamped RDD, it was bringing it closer (still not as good) to how the class performs in D&D. I still have yet to see how this goes, but you lose several must have feats for some extra str and elemental resistance you can get from some gloves. It didn't recieve a lot of love, they just made it less retarded. I'm not trying to derail any effort to improve Amia, nor am I trying to discount your opinion. I simply think that getting a juiced summon doesn't fix a class, so much as makes a class built around a summon. This will always end up being lackluster. So again. Apologies if you think I am shooting for you, because I am certainly not.
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I simply think that getting a juiced summon doesn't fix a class, so much as makes a class built around a summon. This will always end up being lackluster. So again. Apologies if you think I am shooting for you, because I am certainly not.
I never said getting a juiced summon would fix the class, in fact if you scroll up to my original post you responded from, I stated it was one of the three main flaws in SD's abilities. I merely continued the conversation with you as I vehemently disagree that Epic Shadelord is useful anywhere past +3 lootbin mobs, as their saves or immunities make the summon useless, and in a PvP setting a level 1 would only be deal 1 damage at a time with no other issues by simply drinking a bubbly potion.
I think I've said all I have to say on the matter regarding the issues with Epic SD. Sadly, it will always be a dip class, with the very few who think going Epic SD will be fun from a mechanical viewpoint most likely being severely disappointed at how it performs. As I said earlier, Epic SD unlocks some great RP, but severely underwhelming mechnical play style.
I will just add this was the discussion we had 2 years ago on similar issues, Sune said there was something planned with no ETA, but that's all we heard from it: viewtopic.php?f=54&t=77436
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"Operating in the border between light and darkness, shadowdancers are nimble artists of deception. They are mysterious and unknown, never completely trusted but always inducing wonder when met"
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I've had my 20 sd exclusively for many many years, and i want to say Kamina has the right of it all. Played along side him for many of those years. I fully and completely agree with every point he's made.
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Kamina wrote:
SD is amazing due to it being one of the few true sandbox PrCs you can take, but until some major improvements take place, the ever-vast 6 SD "Shadowjump pls" HiPSers will always outnumber those who take it to Epic level.
Which is exactly the reason why I personally think the HiPS should be at least on lvl 10, like Pale Masters Crit. immunity, or maybe even post epic. HiPS is the main shadowdancer-candy every fatso goes for, so make it count.
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Realtalk I seriously think that making certain spell widgets completely free of cost to a shadow dancer of a certain level would be sufficient incentive. I have a 'lot' of suggestions, but if none of my OP was viable we could certainly do with at least that much.
Another idea I felt like tossing out there: Freely LETO'ing in ESF in one of the two stealth skills upon achieving 20th in shadow dancer. To be a level 20 SD completely guarantees that you're devoting yourself fruitlessly to a stealth specialist that no longer benefits you -- to the point that you're willing to submit yourself to KD vulnerability forever.
Which begs re-clarification: I firmly believe it is Shadowdancer's role among DEX classes to be the defense centric option, and among all classes to be the specialist of the stealth skill -- much as Weaponmasters are clearly designed to be the DPS, Sorcerers are born blasters, Wizards are born warders, and Palemasters and Dwarven Defenders are born 'damage sponge' tanks (with Barb being somewhere in the middle between that and WM).
The questions we need to ask when we're asking how we can enhance SD truly amount to "what can we do to make a stealth and DEX defense specialist class improve the stealth viability of a character past level 6? 10? 13?"
I do agree with an earlier notion to change the functions of Shadow Evade. I'm thinking that converting it from an AC boost to a % Concealment that scales by 5% every 2 SD levels (ending at 50% and hitting 25% at 10), and revamping the DR to scale the + modifier as well as the actual damage amount (in a 'tri-slope' form (so it starts 5/+4, moves to 10/+4 and 5/+5; moves to 15/+4, 10/+5, 5/+6; so on so forth)) would highly improve the value of investing in higher class level numbers -- especially since Shadow Evade is nondispellable.
I'll write up a full version later, but that's what I'm tooling with mentally assuming it can be done without going ham on the hakpack
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I would even concede to giving SD's a permanent concealment bonus, as there are almost always shadows present. In the end they are going to get it with imp invis wands or misty pots. Why not just toss that in there?
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Some simple ideas for Shadow Evade that don't need a hak, i think! Either set it to be unlimited uses but on a CD with its current duration (IMO: which should be changed to 5 rounds + 1 per SD lvl) set up much akin to that of the DD's breath attack, or SD's own Shadow Daze. Or, change it to be Turns per level, leaving it at the 3 uses. I favor turns per level so as not to have to reactivate things, but thats me. Further, the effect i feel could use a change. The AC is fine, if it is in fact dodge AC. Maybe it could stand to scale more into epic levels. The DR is fine, but the Concealment i feel should reach 50% at lvl 10. It is subject to dispelling, but not breach i assume. So 50% conc on demand that wont be removed by npc or scroll easily, or even all that many true mages is pretty damn hefty! I feel it plays into their evasive set up though, and perhaps even starts to give them more of a role as someone said above.
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The issue with SD is not their Hide/MS ability. Yeah, they can be caught out by a Wis-built spotter, but that's solely how mechanics work. Increasing their Hide/MS will be a boon but completely ignores the fundamental aspects of what an SD is. So let me try to explain why I think SD is long overdue some sort of overhaul. Think of Rogue and think of Assassin, the two other "sneaker" classes (objectively Monk and Ranger but let's not go in to that). Rogue is a jack of all trades, their large skillset allows them to be very flexible in their role. Their large range on what they can do, from lockpicking to sneaking to devastating sneak attacks makes them good, obviously pure rogue will have AB issues, however. Assassin is equally good, benefiting from their Assassin widget. What they lack in skill diversity they have in potential swift one-on-one kills. Their Murder setting has an interesting point that I'll bring up in a bit.
