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[ 21 posts ] |
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Gravemaskin
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 Posted: Tue, Oct 18 2016, 15:17 PM |
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Player
Joined: 29 Jul 2007
Location: Norway: Home of the Trolls
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I'd like to suggest removing the automatic fail on 1 rolls (and automatic success on 20 rolls if there is one), since skillcheck rolls are NEVER automatic success on 1 or 20 rolls.
Since the gains from the pickpocket skill aren't on par with most job system gains and there is always that 5% chance of automatic failure no matter how much you invested, I think the autofail only serves to make an already unpopular skill choice, less appealing.
This also shouldn't be a very difficult fix to make, since there's likely 1 or 2 lines that check what you rolled and make it an automatic success or failure and removing them would fix this "issue".
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Adair - Druid and part time treant cosplayer
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Cratz
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Posted: Tue, Oct 18 2016, 17:19 PM |
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Player
Joined: 13 Mar 2009
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_________________
I'm done. Goodbye.
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Commie
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Posted: Tue, Oct 18 2016, 23:24 PM |
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Player
Joined: 02 Dec 2015
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B^U
SSrsly though, 20's being auto-successes and 1's being auto fails arn't for skills though.
_________________ ANT ALARM Count Kaldrjarn Pitt | Archmage Kilmar | Sarguk Morderer ANT ALARM MisterLich wrote: First of all, my brain is one of the best here.
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SuicidalStyle
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Posted: Wed, Oct 19 2016, 1:56 AM |
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Player
Joined: 30 Jun 2014
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I totally agree with this. I created a character with Epic Skill Focus in pickpocket, but no matter how high I get my skill check or how good he is at it, he could automatically fail on the most oblivious of marks. It makes me afraid to use the skill and if I do and fail (even if it's 80 PP to 10 spot), I have to RP like my character made some ridiculous screw up.
Think what would happen if this happened with Spot VS Hide. You could never be confident that you can safely spy without worry that your 110 hide could be busted by someone with -1 spot. I invested into my hin Fosco with PP so he could pick pocket high profile and aware marks without them catching on.
And I don't just rely on the skill check. I always RP something happening, whether it's a simple bump lift, or swapping an item for another, or creating a diversion to pick something off some one right under their nose (like some magicians do to hilarious effect).
This would be an awesome talent to bring back with some confidence again. Support your local thief today!
_________________ Account moved to LeathanKayne.
Delen and Fosco will see ya on that one!
(If you PM me on this, I likely won't see it for a long time >.>)
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Gravemaskin
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Posted: Sat, Oct 22 2016, 14:41 PM |
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Player
Joined: 29 Jul 2007
Location: Norway: Home of the Trolls
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Well having a chance to fail isn't that bad but it's an artificial one. There's always a risk with pickpocketing someone depending on how many people are about and you don't know their spot skill or DC prior to actually doing it.. However the 5% chance to fail regardless does feel like an artificial hazard that's just there for ..reasons.
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Adair - Druid and part time treant cosplayer
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robbi320
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Posted: Sat, Oct 22 2016, 15:47 PM |
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Player
Joined: 04 Jan 2015
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I just noticed I seem to point out negatives of things out a lot... And I'm running a bit low on sleep, sorry if this feels too... brainstorm-y
For me personally, this is more of a consistency thing, rather than an actual balancing issue. I mean, with all the restrictions on it, this barely makes it more viable. For a thirty, anything you steal usually isn't worth that much, and a non-thirty will have problems succeeding the check. So this is mainly a thing about RP. Yeah, sometimes there are better solutions than just a 'use' on a random person. But in most cases, or actually every time I've seen it used, it was put together with RP in some way. Now, in my opinion, the bonuses you get for being in a party already make it pretty risky to use, and the autofail just made it not really worth it for me. It's like the job system. You literally can not get rich with it. And that's not the point. But just for consistensies sake, it should behave just like any other skill. Now, yeah, flukes happen all the time, but then that should apply to all skills or none in my opinion.
One thing I always wondered though: If I epuip +50 PP gear, have ranks in PP, 38 Dex, and just for fun also have ESF, I'd have an actual skill modifier of 57. Would that mean I'd be able to use the default NWN system?
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Gravemaskin
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Posted: Sat, Oct 22 2016, 16:05 PM |
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Player
Joined: 29 Jul 2007
Location: Norway: Home of the Trolls
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robbi320 wrote: One thing I always wondered though: If I epuip +50 PP gear, have ranks in PP, 38 Dex, and just for fun also have ESF, I'd have an actual skill modifier of 57. Would that mean I'd be able to use the default NWN system? If it did, it'd be exploitation of a bug with the consequences attached to doing that. The reason you get -50 pp skill is to prevent it from being used due to how it works and actually would allow you to pickpocket epic loot and DC gear from people if you succeed the DC checks. This is why it was disabled in the first place. So yeah, using it would most likely be seen as exploiting bugs by the DMs and get you slapped.
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Adair - Druid and part time treant cosplayer
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robbi320
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Posted: Sat, Oct 22 2016, 17:13 PM |
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Joined: 04 Jan 2015
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Speaking completely technically, it isn't forbidden though. Reading the topic it says that the NWN PP system is disabled. In a way, it's not my problem if the way it is disabled is flawed. And being good at PP hardly qualifies as a bug, right? So, just as a suggestion, maybe explicitely state that it is forbidden to use it? I don't know. Somehow people don't like it when I point out flaws in the rules. *shrugs* Sorry for derailing the topic a bit.
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Tarnus
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Posted: Sat, Oct 22 2016, 17:18 PM |
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Player
Joined: 28 Aug 2015
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I'm not sure how it is set up myself, but if it can indeed be worked around like that and you used then it IS an exploit and anyone who uses it like that and is caught... well we'll make it their problem.
_________________
Playing as:
Aleana Xiloscient: Wherever the winds take her.
Jealesyl Truesong: A voice in the dark
DM Prometheus: Bringing you fire
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robbi320
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Posted: Sat, Oct 22 2016, 17:57 PM |
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Player
Joined: 04 Jan 2015
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*facepalms* Sometimes... I post without really thinking, sorry. Yup, it's an exploit. The page even says it is purposefully disabled (albeit VERY ineffectively). I'll just claim my brain not working because of lack of sleep. Just a little hint though, I 'think' DC gear could still be stolen as long as it isn't currently worn and not heavy, like an amulet. Might be wrong here though.
On the other hand, the original topic, auto-success and -failure. It's a skill. Skills never do that. We already have penalties that make PP risky to use, so IMO we don't need the extra risk.
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That Guy
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Posted: Sat, Oct 22 2016, 18:02 PM |
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Player
Joined: 13 Nov 2014
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No way should DC gear be stealable, come on, that's a bit extreme. How would you feel if you saved up say 30 DC's for a piece of gear through roleplay and someone that put ranks into a skill took it? Regardless of the devotion needed to achieve the theft, that's really overly powerful. Most pickpockets die young anyway. 
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TormakSaber
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Posted: Sat, Oct 22 2016, 18:16 PM |
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Player
Joined: 16 Dec 2004
Location: Somewhere
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robbi320 wrote: Speaking completely technically, it isn't forbidden though. Reading the topic it says that the NWN PP system is disabled. In a way, it's not my problem if the way it is disabled is flawed. And being good at PP hardly qualifies as a bug, right? So, just as a suggestion, maybe explicitely state that it is forbidden to use it? I don't know. Somehow people don't like it when I point out flaws in the rules. *shrugs* Sorry for derailing the topic a bit. If you use the default PP system you can expect the DMs (and players) to be on you like a fly on shit, and I doubt the "it's a flaw in the rules" flies here, tbh. I doubt the "it's disabled not disallowed" argument wins you any supporters.
_________________
Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham
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Commie
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Posted: Sat, Oct 22 2016, 18:17 PM |
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Joined: 02 Dec 2015
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Gonna go out on a limb here and say that if you abuse pp either to lose xp and de then re level yourself or max the skill and steal items from people using the nwn base skill you might as well head back home and pack your shit cause you're moving to banned street.
_________________ ANT ALARM Count Kaldrjarn Pitt | Archmage Kilmar | Sarguk Morderer ANT ALARM MisterLich wrote: First of all, my brain is one of the best here.
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Grymia
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Posted: Sat, Oct 22 2016, 18:43 PM |
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Player
Joined: 14 Dec 2004
Location: Kohlingen, and a Basement in Canada
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That Guy wrote: No way should DC gear be stealable, come on, that's a bit extreme. How would you feel if you saved up say 30 DC's for a piece of gear through roleplay and someone that put ranks into a skill took it? Regardless of the devotion needed to achieve the theft, that's really overly powerful. Most pickpockets die young anyway. Funny enough, in many game systems which do allow you to build yourself a magical piece of armour or item (Big Eyes Small mouth, Commie I know you're probably not a fan but hear this one out) , they do build into the cost factor a variable to take into account it CAN be removed. Similarly this notion's done in Mutants and Masterminds , in both cases they reduce the cost of the item, but.. again, it can be taken over. In both cases the ST/DM is encouraged to not completely remove the item for good barring reasonable circumstances, and if such DOES happen to provide a fair chance at something to compensate. I don't know any more if the DC item cost calculation weighs the fact that theoretically a physical item could be removed from someone, or no, but I could see both ways: * Investing the DCs does mean that barring mitigating circumstances , this is an item quite iconic to the character and should not be removed lightly (save, perhaps for abuse issues). * The decision to invest DCs into an item instead of something else falls on the player solely and thus , they should be aware of the potential cause and effect of having and potentially losing an iem already. Admittedly, from my reckoning things lean to the first of those two points. Both are fair though, as long as all cases of DC items that are physical items are handled equivically.
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robbi320
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Posted: Sat, Oct 22 2016, 19:22 PM |
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Player
Joined: 04 Jan 2015
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Actually, since I never had a DC item, I don't know. Are they marked as plot? At least what also was said, epic loot. Those nice expensive epic disc gloves or tome of mystra can be stolen though. Or an ioun. So expensive things certainly can be stolen. Of course, chances are very slim. On the other hand, at least in my opinion things like that aren't safer from a lore perspective. Any of you ever gotten a new phone stolen? An expensive watch maybe? One thing I never wa sure though, which is why I actually would give stuff back OOC, since the rules also state that at least for robberies, if you take an important item, you took it IC, but don't actually get it. Does this apply to PP too? By definition it is a theft, and not a robbery (usually), so I'm really not sure. Big problem with this is that by official rules, if that rule doesn't apply it would technically be illegal to give back the item OOC, because OOC reason for an IC item transferral... Quote: If robbed, you are not required to hand over items you do not wish to give away OOCly; emoting that they are transferred ICly is sufficient. And for what you can steal: Quote: * Items that are equipped cannot be taken.
* Items marked plot or undroppable cannot be taken.
* If a stack is selected for lifting, only one of the stack items will transfer.
* Items over 5 lbs cannot be taken. Items in weight reduction containers are treated like regular inventory for the weight limit.
* Containers cannot be taken, but their contents are treated like normal inventory and one item in the container may be randomly selected. As for me arguing on the exact definition of rules, sorry. I don't actually mean it as stating that I would do it, but rather trying to point out things. Some things I am genuinely curious about. And sometimes I just forget to think about the reason behind rule and just look at the rule. Again, sorry for that.
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Gravemaskin
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Posted: Sat, Oct 22 2016, 19:34 PM |
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Player
Joined: 29 Jul 2007
Location: Norway: Home of the Trolls
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Jackie's picked well over 30 Pc's pockets at this time, and I've only ever gotten an item onec.. and it was a lesser restoration potion.
_________________
Adair - Druid and part time treant cosplayer
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TormakSaber
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Posted: Sat, Oct 22 2016, 19:37 PM |
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Player
Joined: 16 Dec 2004
Location: Somewhere
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The problem is that once you succeeed in taking an item there's no way to get it back. There's also no cooldown. I could stand next to you in HIPS, hotkey pickpocket, which is a DC 20, and just click F1 on you until your entire inventory is gone.
The system is awful. Don't use it. Like I said "it's disabled not disallowed!" is a really bad argument. It's very obvious that the intent behind giving a -50 to pickpocket is to prevent the use of the original system.
_________________
Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham
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robbi320
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Posted: Sat, Oct 22 2016, 19:57 PM |
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Player
Joined: 04 Jan 2015
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Yup, Tormak I get that.I mean, you can steal the full plate a person is wearing currently. Of course, also pretty annoying IIRC is the fact it marks things as stolen. And yes. I wasn't thinking about that when posting. Again, I'm sorry. The flaws our PP system has are a lot less annoying than the ones from NWN standard.
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Gravemaskin
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Posted: Sat, Oct 22 2016, 20:07 PM |
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Player
Joined: 29 Jul 2007
Location: Norway: Home of the Trolls
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It does, but I still hope that the automatic success or failure states get taken out of the script since it's not in line with how skillchecks work.
but honestly, I'd be perfectly fine with the chance to take items getting entirely cut out and it purely being a gold thing or get a chance to generate an item worth X gold, where X gold gets taken from the mark and the item is like some trinket, a sock or a comb or whatever and gets named "Mark's Sock" for funsies.
Honestly, I don't like having a chance to take someone's potion or whatever and if I ever do, I'll ooc offer to switch it out with a token amount of gold instead because I don't wanna take an actual item from someone and it's not something my character would do (Gold is easy to fence, someone's item or an unlabelled potion, nto so much), whereas gold is everywhere on teh island so taking that is entierly fine in my eyes, because you can litterally kill 10 goblins and get the amount back.
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Adair - Druid and part time treant cosplayer
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TormakSaber
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Posted: Sat, Oct 22 2016, 22:00 PM |
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Player
Joined: 16 Dec 2004
Location: Somewhere
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You're not ever taking items from someone when you use Amia PP, it's generating them from nothing. I think the target does actually lose the bit of gold. I'm not sure. IT's been awhile. I asked a Dev to take a look at the PP script, regardless.
_________________
Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham
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Gravemaskin
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Posted: Sat, Oct 22 2016, 22:54 PM |
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Player
Joined: 29 Jul 2007
Location: Norway: Home of the Trolls
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Unless I'm misremembering, I actually got that potion from them because he said his stack went down to 9 from 10 and it came up teh item was lost. More importantly, Sweet it's getting looked at ! 
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Adair - Druid and part time treant cosplayer
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