AMIA ARCHIVE • View topic

Hi guys,
Could be perhaps improve banning a bit? I know, recently Mezwar was doing stuff in Kohlingen, and I'm not sure if it warranted a permanent ban. Apart from the fact I still am a bit upset about that, and probably should start sending reminder PMs to people that seem to have forgotten the first Message, I noticed a 'Mezwar' on the Kohlingen ban list. However, the last time the list was updated was a long time ago... I'm not sure what DMs can do via the forums. Therefore, I would suggest that, if it isn't like that already, the person banning someone has to send an OOC PM to the banned one, telling him that he is banned. Since banning already has an OOC aspect in it (Alter Self doesn't protect me against it) it makes it obvious I am not allowed to enter a place. With aliases and problems like that, I am really unsure if I am banned from Kohlingen right now, and I don't think it's a problem where I'm the only one.

Thanks,
Robbi320

This should already be happening, and is the fault of the players doing the banning if you do not keep people aware of your public ban lists.

So if this didn't happen, I can assume that the person banned is someone other qn me? I mean, it just says my first name...

I'm in this boat too but am just handling it ic.

I don't think it will remain in effect due to the ooc ness of being 'banned' for months and not knowing it.

If you did something IC to get yourself banned, then you're still banned IC. Only thing that should happen is any instances you "unknowingly" breached your ban should be overlooked. Also if you don't know or cant remember why you're banned, do what Commie did and go through IC channels.

I don't know what it is because I made a point to never fuck around in the Holy City so my character could go there.

Imagine my surprise when I find out my character was banned like 2 weeks after creation and nobody told me.

We have, in the past, banned individuals from Kohlingen based on their in-character affiliations. It is also possible there is/was a communications failure, that with the decline of activity, meant no one from the Kohlingen forums knew your character was absolved and the ban remained in place. Plus, only DMs can moderate Kohlingen's public forum.

In my case, I did fuck around. But considering the last update was like at least a year ago, it couldn't be me banned, right?

All I want is some notification, because, for example, apparently every person called Dirk is banned from Kohlingen...

Richard_Edmund wrote:

If you did something IC to get yourself banned, then you're still banned IC.

Right up until you go about getting your ban lifted IC, could be as simple as a letter, we might not even bother holding a trial and execution. (That was a joke)

robbi320 wrote:

In my case, I did fuck around. But considering the last update was like at least a year ago, it couldn't be me banned, right?

All I want is some notification, because, for example, apparently every person called Dirk is banned from Kohlingen...

When a DM who's not the original poster edits that post, it doesn't put the timestamp on it. It was updated much after that, I assure you!

And that is the point I think that DM should send an OOC note. Even ot's just like 'Hey I've banned you from Kohlingen, yo'...

robbi320 wrote:

And that is the point I think that DM should send an OOC note. Even ot's just like 'Hey I've banned you from Kohlingen, yo'...

To be fair an IC post to bump the thread with what was altered wouldn't go amiss, have seen such done many times before. Altering a post but not publicly saying it doesn't really let people know unless you're actively pawing through the forum posts.

Something we'll need to work on as a faction, looks like (and anywhere else where this applies)! I started some chatter about it. We'll do better!

Jes wrote:

Something we'll need to work on as a faction, looks like (and anywhere else where this applies)! I started some chatter about it. We'll do better!

Sorry that wasn't a complaint on my part. Does altering an original post bump the thread?

It wasn't directed at you specifically. You made a good point, though, and it just illustrated that there are better ways to do it for the sake of clarity and fairness for everyone involved.

And no, altering the original post doesn't bump it!

robbi320 wrote:

And that is the point I think that DM should send an OOC note. Even ot's just like 'Hey I've banned you from Kohlingen, yo'...

This is not the DM's job, typically. It's up to the players running the city's respective main faction, DMs can't be expected to ride on their coattails 24/7.

IMO, this would be the duty of factions of the city unless the DM specifically banned you through NPCs. Or if there's no faction to uphold the bans within the city.

If PCs are given the ability to ban, they should be expected to follow up with clear ban notices and updates to their ban threads.

i personally maintain this for example;

viewtopic.php?f=179&t=86733

and either tell ppl via ooc channels in addition to ic channels, I also post that I updated the list.

Sorry. Projecting onto my problem. Yes the person banning you. It can be a player or a DM.

Actually, the ban list on the internal kohlingen forums is even more neglected than the ban list in the public forum, and the private one can be updated by players and the public one only by DM/Forum mods.

666WaysToHell wrote:

Actually, the ban list on the internal kohlingen forums is even more neglected than the ban list in the public forum, and the private one can be updated by players and the public one only by DM/Forum mods.

That actually seems VERY bad, considering the fact you are, by server rules, not allowed to enter a city you are banned from. So not being able to make it public is kind of problematic.

So if I got banned, by person giving the ban does not have name of banned character and any specific description (muscle dude in plate armor) and does not put BAN on forum in any form, besides some sort of bullshit addendum "anyone disrespecting tradition...", I'm fine as long as I change some basic looks of character (if banning side knows "dude in gold plate", I can just go with black and be fine), right?

That's the problem. I don't think so. Even Alter Self doesn't protect you from a ban, because it is too easily metagamed. Don't think a Shifter gets a free pass either, not even with a thousand faces.

Edit: Link

robbi320 wrote:

666WaysToHell wrote:

Actually, the ban list on the internal kohlingen forums is even more neglected than the ban list in the public forum, and the private one can be updated by players and the public one only by DM/Forum mods.

That actually seems VERY bad, considering the fact you are, by server rules, not allowed to enter a city you are banned from. So not being able to make it public is kind of problematic.

They can request for this to be fixed or altered.

SamTheGiantSlayer wrote:

robbi320 wrote:

666WaysToHell wrote:

Actually, the ban list on the internal kohlingen forums is even more neglected than the ban list in the public forum, and the private one can be updated by players and the public one only by DM/Forum mods.

That actually seems VERY bad, considering the fact you are, by server rules, not allowed to enter a city you are banned from. So not being able to make it public is kind of problematic.

They can request for this to be fixed or altered.

True, but players and DMs are both fallible.

Sure, but this situation is still largely a player's duty if they're the ones dishing bans. DMs have to keep track of enough as it is. If they had to do bans and ban letters of every settlement, they may as well also run the factions themselves

the reasonable solution is to overturn every ban that has no proof posted

:twisted:

Bumping this with a set of suggested guidelines suggested by Commie, and some changes by myself: (numbers by Commie, letters by me)

As an addition to the rules about banning:

1. Bans should be temporary at first (a week for minor, a month for major as an example) and players should be given a chance to rectify their behavior.
a. a longer ban requires a request, involving multiple DM approvals.
2. Bans should be clearly communicated to all parties, and so should the reason; players should always know why.
a. With an OOC notice. And IC notice does NOT suffice.
3. Faction bans (banning a faction) are a no-go except for sanctioned (run past/approved by the DM team and participating players so they have an 'out' if they don't like it) conflict like officially declaring war as a faction.
a. A faction ban has to have the known players listed underneath, so these people know that they are not allowed. A "you know who you are" is a nice IC statement, but not a sensible thing to say OOC, just like banned religions are not universal.
4. Ban lists should be better maintained on the forum.
5. If you have a faction area (ex Kohl Keep, the Fort) none of the above rules apply, except for clear communication, when it applies to that faction area specifically.
6. If you ban someone you need to give them channels to communicate assuming those channels arn't just used for further IC harassment.

Since it was suggested to put in a channel DMs would actually read, here.

This seems like a way for banning practices a bit more universal, and less unpredictable. Yes, it means more stuff for DMs, but it just is sending a PM, again, if it is well thought out, it will be approved more quickly. DMs need to read and essentially post a "yes" or "no" in most cases.

What do others think? In the GD thread this seems to be a popular idea, so I thought I'd throw this over here.

1.a. Some cities have a specific DM (like Barak Runedar and Winya have me) and imho that DM should be enough in such cases 'unless' the banned person specifically asks for it to make it reviewed by more because they feel something is off there. Makes it a bit easier without taking the option to still have it reviewed by the other DM.

3. You can ban a faction imho if there is a very good reason. The cultists of orcus for example provided plenty reason for a general ban (and were quite fine with that). The same does and should apply here as it already does with faith tho, unless the city/guards/ppl know the persons faith/belonging to a group, those can be ignored.

The rest I would say I pretty much agree with.

If you like (I know this is faction and not city but still) you can use how I handled it here and give what you like/dislike/feel could be made different:

viewtopic.php?f=175&t=84336

Mind the "individual bans" here public are just the names for those to know they are (still) banned without having to ask first if they do not want to. The internal ban list has descriptions of appearance, with reason of ban, etc.

1. a. Ok, that still is a thing? Then it actually makes sense. The listing is a bit out of date, and I assumed with the small team, the whole "one DM has it's own settlement" thing had been changed. (I had no idea you did either of those, which might be from me not playing in either)

3. Yes, that actually makes sense. In certain cases, it does make sense to ban factions. so I guess remove point 3. but keep 3.a. (at least that would be my suggestion) On the other hand, it goes along the lines of the concerns of 1.a. If it is a DMed area, it has/needs/gets DM approval, and other places (if there are any) likely would need to be run by a DM. (I don't know, but things like Cordor, I'm not up to date which areas are DMed by anyone at all)

It sounds nice. I don't know, maybe you do this already, but will someone who was recently banned notice that he is banned? Last post was 2015, according to Forum time stamp. Do you tell someone he is banned in some way? (again, I have my preference for OOC here)
Another thing I'm not sure about is the fact that it only references some parts of the name. I mean, maybe there was a PC called "Bob", (which is a thing I dislike, even though I do that on some occasions myself, if not that extreme) with the purpose of "for the banned person to know" it is good, as long as he knows he is meant with "Bob". (I hope you understand my point. It's not obvious from the ban list)
If that is out of the way, it seems good.

robbi320 wrote:

It sounds nice. I don't know, maybe you do this already, but will someone who was recently banned notice that he is banned? Last post was 2015, according to Forum time stamp. Do you tell someone he is banned in some way? (again, I have my preference for OOC here)
Another thing I'm not sure about is the fact that it only references some parts of the name. I mean, maybe there was a PC called "Bob", (which is a thing I dislike, even though I do that on some occasions myself, if not that extreme) with the purpose of "for the banned person to know" it is good, as long as he knows he is meant with "Bob". (I hope you understand my point. It's not obvious from the ban list)
If that is out of the way, it seems good.

Yeah they always are informed and then added to the list additional. (OOC informed that is) A few on there pre-date even my leadership, not sure how it was handled there!

The public list is IC written by Malandria, so yes of course only people are listed with their names if names are known. If no detailed information is known ("the guy in black cloth" doesn't quite help anyone) usually just an internal warning is given in the Grove and asking people to watch out for them/find out more about them.

Last post was a while. I was surprised myself. haha but it actually is, for all I can see, still pretty up to date. Most of the trouble causers in the last year fall under the generally unwelcome. And two of the not generally unwelcome who caused banworthy trouble, managed to appeal! (yes, it can happen!)

___

The city DM is still partly a thing. You're right though the list is outdated and we have far more cities than DM atm.

It does not apply to all cities though. Some cities either simply do not really have much traffic to warrant a focus or some (inmy opinion) should not be limited (and/or burdened) to a single DM. Cordor being the main example here.

Ya'll should make an API with the ban lists and have the SQL server pull the full array from the table when the server caches all of the SQL data on load, and then have people able to manage banlists on the forums... :idea:

Bit 'o work tho. :cry:

My character has been banned from just about everywhere over the years. I think sometimes people are a little too quick with the permaban thing, but that's a thing that can happen IC so it's usually best to deal with it IC.

For example... Krin has been banned from Barak Runedar for about 4 years now for refusing to remove his hood and insulting a member of the dwarven council who was demanding that he do so. OOC, I think it's a fair representation of what happens when an immovable object(stubborn dwarf) and unstoppable force(stubborn Krin) butt heads and one of them has the 'ban' trump card. And IC Krin has always gone out of his way to irritate dwarves, so it was bound to happen sooner or later. Those dwarves really do hold long grudges! <.<

But if I were online and all the cool RP was happening in Barak Runedar, it would kinda suck that my character couldn't get in and I couldn't contribute. Krin has been banned from Kohlingen for about 4 years too and there have been a lot of times when that was the case, but that's how it goes sometimes.

That being said, it might be a good idea to find reasons to go easy on the ban hammers given the low population of the server.

I think posting the reasons for the banning publicly somewhere would be good. From what I've seen, all that usually happens when a character is banned is their name is put on a list somewhere. But if there aren't screenies or detailed notes somewhere, people are bound to forget why a lot of those characters are banned eventually and that's no fun for anyone.

Krin wrote:

My character has been banned from just about everywhere over the years. I think sometimes people are a little too quick with the permaban thing, but that's a thing that can happen IC so it's usually best to deal with it IC.

For example... Krin has been banned from Barak Runedar for about 4 years now for refusing to remove his hood and insulting a member of the dwarven council who was demanding that he do so. OOC, I think it's a fair representation of what happens when an immovable object(stubborn dwarf) and unstoppable force(stubborn Krin) butt heads and one of them has the 'ban' trump card. And IC Krin has always gone out of his way to irritate dwarves, so it was bound to happen sooner or later. Those dwarves really do hold long grudges! <.<

That being said, it might be a good idea to find reasons to go easy on the ban hammers given the low population of the server.

See but you said it yourself you went out of your way to irritate the dwarves, why would they ever want you back on their lands given it was not a minor mistake and they can give you a slap on the wrist.

I think the big problem is how people view the act of committing a offence.
"I did something wrong, so you should tell me to go away for a short amount of time and then forgive me"

If the character does not do anything to earn forgiveness by the people or make reparations, that just helps solidify the fact that if they are not their they don't cause problems and because they have done nothing to show they are worth having around why remove the ban?

Yes some people get a bit ban happy, but I think on some level the person banned has to do something to get unbanned not just out wait a timer because that's not a punishment.

corypx wrote:

Krin wrote:

My character has been banned from just about everywhere over the years. I think sometimes people are a little too quick with the permaban thing, but that's a thing that can happen IC so it's usually best to deal with it IC.

For example... Krin has been banned from Barak Runedar for about 4 years now for refusing to remove his hood and insulting a member of the dwarven council who was demanding that he do so. OOC, I think it's a fair representation of what happens when an immovable object(stubborn dwarf) and unstoppable force(stubborn Krin) butt heads and one of them has the 'ban' trump card. And IC Krin has always gone out of his way to irritate dwarves, so it was bound to happen sooner or later. Those dwarves really do hold long grudges! <.<

That being said, it might be a good idea to find reasons to go easy on the ban hammers given the low population of the server.

See but you said it yourself you went out of your way to irritate the dwarves, why would they ever want you back on their lands given it was not a minor mistake and they can give you a slap on the wrist.

I think the big problem is how people view the act of committing a offence.
"I did something wrong, so you should tell me to go away for a short amount of time and then forgive me"

If the character does not do anything to earn forgiveness by the people or make reparations, that just helps solidify the fact that if they are not their they don't cause problems and because they have done nothing to show they are worth having around why remove the ban?

Yes some people get a bit ban happy, but I think on some level the person banned has to do something to get unbanned not just out wait a timer because that's not a punishment.

Oh, I know. In my case, my character's personal aversion to authority figures makes it basically a guarantee that his ban in Barak Runedar will never be lifted even if it was over something silly like a hood. OOC, I have no issue with it. You roll with the punches sometimes and if that means I miss out on some spicy RP, so be it.

But that was 4 years ago when more people were around more often. What I'm saying is, going forward, unless you're dealing with the 'random murder in the middle of the city' type of situation, it's probably a good idea to find reasons to avoid permanent bans for PCs. Use it as a way to find more interactive and useful punishments. IE, give them the option to do work for the city, pay a fine, or get a temporary ban for minor offenses.

And also make the public notices clear as to why the person was banned so they know what they need to address and who they need to reach out to to request that it be undone. Yes, that's an IC thing, but I personally have no problem with a little meta if it's going to make it easier for people to interact in game.

Krin wrote:

But that was 4 years ago when more people were around more often. What I'm saying is, going forward, unless you're dealing with the 'random murder in the middle of the city' type of situation, it's probably a good idea to find reasons to avoid permanent bans for PCs. Use it as a way to find more interactive and useful punishments. IE, give them the option to do work for the city, pay a fine, or get a temporary ban for minor offenses.

Different people and semi-different view I think if someone really wants to be forgiven they would offer a service themselves to try and make amends not you tell them at the time.

I view it like kids in school and they get into a fight, if the teacher forces the other kid to say sorry you know he's just saying empty words so he can just move along more or less..

Say if the teacher never stepped in or even knew and later he came and said sorry you would feel like they meant it because they did it because they choose to not because they were forced, giving the impression they really are sorry and wish to make amends.

OOC, obvious banning letters, please.

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