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Commie wrote:

I disagree. 20 acid, 20 fire, 20 electric, immune cold, immune neg, X sonic (you could do 20 with gear and there's like 40 resist rings), X poz (djinn sells poz resist), and some 24 to all physical.

you could very very easily gear to get 20 to all resistances. You have the free slots. And you'd still have plenty left over for regen.

40/resistance rings don't think I have ever seen them floating around.

Don't think I have seen items with over 10 sonic or positive damage

corypx wrote:

Commie wrote:

I disagree. 20 acid, 20 fire, 20 electric, immune cold, immune neg, X sonic (you could do 20 with gear and there's like 40 resist rings), X poz (djinn sells poz resist), and some 24 to all physical.

you could very very easily gear to get 20 to all resistances. You have the free slots. And you'd still have plenty left over for regen.

40/resistance rings don't think I have ever seen them floating around.

Don't think I have seen items with over 10 sonic or positive damage

it's called like shiverring or something.

for sonic check the random item vendors. they spawn. trust me. for poz you would have to dc request it. but the damage type is so rare why bother at all? nothing does it. same with going above 10 sonic.

either way that build wont die, at all. and with divine resist and magic resist nothing could kill it short of rolling a 1 to undeath to death (because it has favored will saves).

I just love the fact that 1. Commie actually is right about almoat everything (I don't know about 40, but that really is not the problem)
2. To quote some things that were said, the dev team put time and effort into it, which makes it good.
3. If it actually ended up being undone, even after enough people, including a DM said they don't like it, and someone would then make that build, who would people dislike? You as someone who in this theory has pushed it through, or the person who did the powerbuilding. In my experience, the person doing the powerbuilding.
4. I did give arguments, and you still are asking for more, basically saying 'Yeah, your arguments are kind of almost valid, but give me others so I don't have to think myself'. Oh, and don't forget the best way to argue. 'Just go away' You started this, why don't you go away?

robbi320 wrote:

I just love the fact that 1. Commie actually is right about almoat everything (I don't know about 40, but that really is not the problem)
2. To quote some things that were said, the dev team put time and effort into it, which makes it good.
3. If it actually ended up being undone, even after enough people, including a DM said they don't like it, and someone would then make that build, who would people dislike? You as someone who in this theory has pushed it through, or the person who did the powerbuilding. In my experience, the person doing the powerbuilding.
4. I did give arguments, and you still are asking for more, basically saying 'Yeah, your arguments are kind of almost valid, but give me others so I don't have to think myself'. Oh, and don't forget the best way to argue. 'Just go away' You started this, why don't you go away?

Personally if MR and DR were allowed I wouldn't call it a powerbuild, it would go into 'broken' territory because most builds on the server literally could not kill it, no matter what they did.

Also the 40 resist ring is resist cold which is irrelevant here because wraith has cold immunity. I would also likely stop at 15 resist to each and would want to play around with the specifics of itemization/feats to see if the 3 feats for 15 total resist is even worth it. But what else do you get on it? You have blind fight you could get, but you already have toughness, fort save is fine, will save is fine, imp evasion, you can't benefit from weapon focus feats.... what else is there?

editing in 'the build' for a new page.

Quote:

Class Race Druid(5), Shifter(11), Dwarven Defender(14), Dwarf

Abilies STR: 11
DEX: 14
CON: 19 (26)
WIS: 10
INT: 14
CHA: 6

30 Dwarf: (Darkvision, Defensive Training vs. Giants, Stonecunning, Hardiness vs. Poison, Hardiness vs. Spells, Offensive Training vs. Goblinoids, Offensive Training vs. Orcs, Skill Affinity: Lore)
Dr 01: Druid(1): Alertness
Dr 02: Druid(2)
Dr 03: Druid(3): Iron Will
Dr 04: Druid(4): CON+1, (CON=20)
Dr 05: Druid(5)
Sh 06: Shifter(1): Dodge
Sh 07: Shifter(2)
Sh 08: Shifter(3): CON+1, (CON=21)
Sh 09: Shifter(4): Toughness
Sh 10: Shifter(5)
Sh 11: Shifter(6)
Sh 12: Shifter(7): CON+1, Resist Energy: Fire, (CON=22)
Sh 13: Shifter(8)
Sh 14: Shifter(9)
Sh 15: Shifter(10): Resist Energy: Acid
DD 16: Dwarven Defender(1): CON+1, {Defensive Stance}, (CON=23)
DD 17: Dwarven Defender(2): {Defensive Awareness I}
DD 18: Dwarven Defender(3): Resist Energy: Electricity
DD 19: Dwarven Defender(4)
DD 20: Dwarven Defender(5): CON+1, (CON=24)
Sh 21: Shifter(11): Undead Shape
DD 22: Dwarven Defender(6)
DD 23: Dwarven Defender(7)
DD 24: Dwarven Defender(8): CON+1, Armor Skin, (CON=25)
DD 25: Dwarven Defender(9)
DD 26: Dwarven Defender(10)
DD 27: Dwarven Defender(11): Epic Damage Reduction I
DD 28: Dwarven Defender(12): CON+1, (CON=26)
DD 29: Dwarven Defender(13)
DD 30: Dwarven Defender(14): Epic Damage Reduction II, Epic Damage Reduction III

robbi320 wrote:

I just love the fact that 1. Commie actually is right about almoat everything (I don't know about 40, but that really is not the problem)
2. To quote some things that were said, the dev team put time and effort into it, which makes it good.
3. If it actually ended up being undone, even after enough people, including a DM said they don't like it, and someone would then make that build, who would people dislike? You as someone who in this theory has pushed it through, or the person who did the powerbuilding. In my experience, the person doing the powerbuilding.
4. I did give arguments, and you still are asking for more, basically saying 'Yeah, your arguments are kind of almost valid, but give me others so I don't have to think myself'. Oh, and don't forget the best way to argue. 'Just go away' You started this, why don't you go away?

1. he's half right about stuff, and given its improving amia forums one should strive for 100%
2. based off what?
3. pointless argument we had divine DR on armor years before the phane quest screwed everything up and you know how many people used it.... no one ((no not even me))
The main problem was it gave it to everyone for free and bypassing gear max power limits ((the main reason for why it was removed))
4. because part correct information is fear mongering, everyone completely ignored the fact I posted the math and even said that Immunity would be the best way to go as it prevent the so called feared problem of the one single build where it might be a minor annoyance.

And the notion that one build might be take a bit longer to kill if immunity for magic or divine was added but that everyone will is and will continue to request divine or magic damage on next to all weapons in DC requests is not a problem?

Commie wrote:

compare;

Quote:

+5 Enhancement
1d10 Physical, Positive, Magical and Divine
Keen
1d6 Mass Crit

Quote:

+5 Enhancement
1d10 Elemental or Sonic Damage
Keen
1d8 Mass Crit

there is a trade off there. want big crit damage? no unresistable damage. and if you go for fire (the most resisted element) im sure the mass crit dmg would be ratcheted up as well.

extra 1d2 mass crit damage difference and the near certainty your 1d10 damage will be rendered useless by common resist items making it more or less a +5,1d8 mass crit and keen weapon

or

1d2 less mass crit damage and 100% chance your 1d10 damage will work.... making it a +5,1d6 mass crit, 1d10 damage and keen.

What would you pick for your request? I'm betting on the 100% chance to deal magic or divine damage.

I already said it on the last page and above but I will say it again immunity is the way to go to not render items useless..... focus on immunity and not resistance

Lets use 25% immunity and assuming we are facing a 1d10 weapon and do the math of each roll vs damage the target would take.

1=0
2=1
3=2
4=3
5=4
6=5
7=6
8=6
9=7
10=8

Not so bad is it...

The point wasn't a that it was a smidge more damage, the point was that since you're going for a more high-value damage type you can add more on elsewhere. The sample weapons show you that by going with at least an inferior damage type you can get an extra die, which is a lot in the grand scheme of things.

Either way, I think I've shown from a player perspective why some damage types need to be unresistable. At the same time try requesting a weapon where the bonus damage is fire and watch and be amazed at how you will be able to squeak an extra mythal slot or two of power out of the DM team.

Commie wrote:

The point wasn't a that it was a smidge more damage, the point was that since you're going for a more high-value damage type you can add more on elsewhere. The sample weapons show you that by going with at least an inferior damage type you can get an extra die, which is a lot in the grand scheme of things.

Either way, I think I've shown from a player perspective why some damage types need to be unresistable. At the same time try requesting a weapon where the bonus damage is fire and watch and be amazed at how you will be able to squeak an extra mythal slot or two of power out of the DM team.

I think you miss read the math..... I proved you would do less damage going for anything but magic or divine even with the so called compensation of a inferior damage type because the now common 10/fire,cold,acid and electric resist gloves hit 4 of the 5 elemental types you can even request from the inferior types.

And no the DMs don't really let you buff your weapon out all that much because its fire, as that thing shows they view fire, cold, acid, electric and sonic more or less on par with each other.

As per your un-killable build....I'll use a friends build as a example they have 24 barb levels, they use a 2 hander and they love Str! lets see how much damage they get

+12 str mod
+6 from 2 hander str mod
+5 weapon
+12 Ferocity Attack
+2d8 phyiscal on weapon
+1d12 great axe as weapon

so minimum of 38 damage per hit to a max of 63 per hit...4 base attacks +1 more from Ferocity +1 more from haste so 6 attacks.

your 24 DR knocks that down to 14-39 per hit, lets say 20 damage per attack and because you will say improved invisibility (( they have blind fight)) but lets say only half the hits land each round, ok that's 60 damage per round and you have 10 regen so around 50 damage every 6 seconds.

specter form would have around 500 HP / 50 per round for 10 rounds so about 1 minute vs physical damage.....not divine, not magic.... PHYSICAL.

And yes I know you have HiPS and you can run away and hide and regen..... but so can any other build with HiPS and in your case if you get knocked down to 100HP do you really want to hide for 4 minutes to get back to full HP?.

It's like saying a monk is un-killable because it can outrun everything like it thinks we are playing World of Warkite.. I mean craft.

what's up with this?

Quote:

your 24 DR knocks that down to 14-39 per hit, lets say 20 damage per attack and because you will say improved invisibility (( they have blind fight)) but lets say only half the hits land each round, ok that's 60 damage per round and you have 10 regen so around 50 damage every 6 seconds.

Incorrect. It's swinging at 50 tops and nobody would stand still and sit in a hasted barbarian rage, nobody is ever going to do that when they have haste and rage up.

I have 61 ac and am invis.

It is not hitting me three times a round.

corypx wrote:

And yes I know you have HiPS and you can run away and hide and regen..... but so can any other build with HiPS and in your case if you get knocked down to 100HP do you really want to hide for 4 minutes to get back to full HP?.

people do this now on non regen builds.

I'd like to add here as someone who mained a blackguard a long time ago: even 5/- is a huge number to cha builds since they take a large dip in physical stats to get any reasonable investment info that stat. Average paladin or by builds only have an 8 cha mod after buffs and some go as high as +10 or +14 in the case of great smite builds.

The hit they take to physical attributes, especially about and damage, is significant in those cases; and since divine might and shield are limited use they put a time limit on their viability. So divine resistance offers a disproportionate handicap against something that amia already needed by making divine feats level dependant anyway.

If any of that was gibberish it's because I'm on my phone.

bobofwestoregonusa wrote:

I'd like to add here as someone who mained a blackguard a long time ago: even 5/- is a huge number to cha builds since they take a large dip in physical stats to get any reasonable investment info that stat. Average paladin or by builds only have an 8 cha mod after buffs and some go as high as +10 or +14 in the case of great smite builds.

The hit they take to physical attributes, especially about and damage, is significant in those cases; and since divine might and shield are limited use they put a time limit on their viability. So divine resistance offers a disproportionate handicap against something that amia already needed by making divine feats level dependant anyway.

If any of that was gibberish it's because I'm on my phone.

The bonus damage is from a damage increase effect, so it ignores both damage resistance and damage immunity. so the 5/- had zero effect what so ever.

Also I keep saying Immunity is the way to do it prevents a lot of it negating most of the damage from sources and that goes for all damage types more or less ((even for you spell casters a lot of the time))

I've always been more keen to Immunity % over flat DR. But that is mostly because when you cast a spell or land a hit, seeing SOMETHING even reduced is better then 0 damage. Abyss for example, everything is 100% immune to everything elemental besides magic, neg, sonic. It just feels so unfulfilling. If it was 50% immune then at least you could cast a spell, see its limited effect and adapt, or if you are unable to, you can brute force it but it will be much harder.

They're not immune, they have high resists.

So has the topic and the math helped sway any of the staff to be willing say Divine immunity to a item given its shown to not be as bad as people think when they hear the word "immunity"

I very much would like to attempt the RP for getting a helmet crafted using a idea that I think will work with 25% immunity with near nothing else on, or 10% with a fair about of magic effects. ((or 5% viewing and view it mostly has weak magical effect))

If a DM has a interest in hearing about the idea in question I can PM them the basic idea as I put the idea on hold given the OOC inability for it to be requested.

Divine DR and immunity.

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