AMIA ARCHIVE • View topic

I know that some time ago

Quote:

Server wide removal of 5/- Divine DR on items, and removal of the quest granting it.

I have a few questions for the DMs about it and what it means.

Ok I can understand why 5/- divine was removed the quest granting it was kind of a joke and should never had happened, it was handed out like free samples hence the need to nuke all the items with it.... My question is would if you never added that quest to hand it out and it was only on DC request items that would need to pass DM RP inspection and item balance or current in game items already balanced and approved would we still have it.

I would love to request a item with Divine resistance or immunity ((not 100%)) and I want to know if that can even be done... as I have a great idea IC that I had worked on before the removal of it and its very lore friendly and logical.

Divine DR/Immunity is not over powered, damage is damage so it should not matter if the request is sound.

If the idea is that Divine damage is some rare damage type and should not be able to resisted despite no amount of good RP to produce such a effect to reduce its harm, why is it handed out in more or less every DC item request like it was fire damage.

I don't think they hand out magic immunity or resistance or divine immunity or resistance items at all anymore.

Think it's all gone. Some damage types are not meant to be mitigateable.

edit; also not all weapons are eligible for divine damage and it's not interchangeable with fire damage.

viewtopic.php?p=1380973#p1380973

Quote:

+5 Enhancement
1d10 Elemental or Sonic Damage
Keen
Any On Hit but the "not available" mentioned on our list and DC 20
= 20 DCs

+5 Enhancement
1d10 Elemental or Sonic Damage
Keen
1d8 Mass Crit
= 19 DCs

+5 Enhancement
1d10 Physical, Positive, Magical and Divine
Keen
Any weaker on hit (basically anything that is on the ok list apart of Blindness and Doom)
= 22 DCs

+5 Enhancement
1d10 Physical, Positive, Magical and Divine
Keen
1d6 Mass Crit
= 20 DCs

Commie wrote:

I don't think they hand out magic immunity or resistance or divine immunity or resistance items at all anymore.

Think it's all gone. Some damage types are not meant to be mitigateable.

edit; also not all weapons are eligible for divine damage and it's not interchangeable with fire damage.

My point is I would like to know for what reason why, why should some damage types be unable to be mitigated if you have solid logical RP do it?

That list you linked is preapproved DC requests and if you look divine is a stones throw from fire more or less, a element that's so easy to reduce it might as well be a joke ((See Djinn gloves with -10/ fire,cold,acid and electric resistance with +2 Str,Dex or Con and protection from elements (10) 1/day......Epic loot chest armor only gives +5AC,-5/ fire,cold,acid,electirc and sonic.))

If you look at the last few requests most are asking for divine damage and all of them will get approved, should the damage itself not be hard and uncommon to get if its for some reason its so Uber that you cant reduce it in anyway?

My thought is add the ability to request divine resistance or immunity back but make like all things the RP have to be good and logical as per why, if they want to have a item with -5/ divine or some % of immunity that will be useless 99% of the time so be it, but the fact they made it more or less the be all end all of damage types is wrong.

corypx wrote:

Commie wrote:

I don't think they hand out magic immunity or resistance or divine immunity or resistance items at all anymore.

Think it's all gone. Some damage types are not meant to be mitigateable.

edit; also not all weapons are eligible for divine damage and it's not interchangeable with fire damage.

My point is I would like to know for what reason why, why should some damage types be unable to be mitigated if you have solid logical RP do it?

That list you linked is preapproved DC requests and if you look divine is a stones throw from fire more or less, a element that's so easy to reduce it might as well be a joke ((See Djinn gloves with -10/ fire,cold,acid and electric resistance with +2 Str,Dex or Con and protection from elements (10) 1/day......Epic loot chest armor only gives +5AC,-5/ fire,cold,acid,electirc and sonic.))

If you look at the last few requests most are asking for divine damage and all of them will get approved, should the damage itself not be hard and uncommon to get if its for some reason its so Uber that you cant reduce it in anyway?

My thought is add the ability to request divine resistance or immunity back but make like all things the RP have to be good and logical as per why, if they want to have a item with -5/ divine or some % of immunity that will be useless 99% of the time so be it, but the fact they made it more or less the be all end all of damage types is wrong.

it's not the end all be all at most you get 1d10 per attack.

corypx wrote:

If the idea is that Divine damage is some rare damage type and should not be able to resisted despite no amount of good RP to produce such a effect to reduce its harm, why is it handed out in more or less every DC item request like it was fire damage.

Don't forget able to be thrown on wands and potions!

But no, there needs to be some unresistable damage. magic and divine is that.

otherwise people stack DR and % immunity and regen and we have pre-nerf neigh unkillable construct shifters again.

Commie wrote:

But no, there needs to be some unresistable damage. magic and divine is that.

otherwise people stack DR and % immunity and regen and we have pre-nerf neigh unkillable construct shifters again.

Why do you need unresistable damage, you can say that till your blue in the face but that does not explain why.....often because you have no real reason and its just a belief you have.

You have limited item slots with a limited amount of power you can have, you cant go changing armor and stuff in combat so your resistance once you enter combat are more or less locked into place. Your weapons on the other hand can changed so that allows you the option to change attack methods but not your defence.

Construct shifters were not that hard to kill, not sure why you had a hard time with them?

Everything except armor can be hotswapped midbattle.

Pre nerf construct shifters were immune to essentially everything except getting one shot to clubs of smiting.

And other forms can essentially become immune to all but the few damage types made lore-wise to specifically injure them.

So with the current staff what is their take on Divine DR and immunity?

Again I understand you had to remove 5/divine because the staff added that phane quest and it allowed you to toss it on any item bypassing what should be acceptable power limits on a item ((AKA max limit item then tossed on top of it was over powered)) But with the quest removed and that script activated to remove that can we request such powers if its on DM balanced/approved items

Divine resistance and/or immunity is not coming back in any form and is not requestable.

Tarnus wrote:

Divine resistance and/or immunity is not coming back in any form and is not requestable.

May I ask why, even more so if its handed out in DC requests as damage so easily?

Tarnus wrote:

Divine resistance and/or immunity is not coming back in any form and is not requestable.

Thanks for clarification!

corypx wrote:

Tarnus wrote:

Divine resistance and/or immunity is not coming back in any form and is not requestable.

May I ask why, even more so if its handed out in DC requests as damage so easily?

I would still very much like to hear the DM/Dev discussion on why this is the case and if their minds cant be changed with a nice logical chat :idea:

.

I kinda agree with Cory on this I feel like Divine dmg shouldn't be handed out so easily and do feel like every weapon request seems to have it on them these days, or at least if it is handed out it should be reduced to 1d6. As for the dmg resistance thing it was taken out in order to balance things a bit more, though it was more for the magic dmg resist since when you dropped you lost hp done to you through magical dmg so if you had the immunity you basically didn't die and almost always stabilized. As for divine it was agreed that the dmg is of course "divine" so given to you by a higher power and therefore being able to resist it or be immune to it shouldn't be allowed. With that said though I still think it shouldn't be something so easily given out for weapons, positive maybe magic is more doable but divine seems like it should have some serious rp to back it up since it is like an energy source from the gods etc.

It's really just a small bit of unresistable damage.

It's 1d10 tops. It's nothing. It's flavor. It's the boon you get for getting a weapon that's weaker in other ways, stronger other enchantments need a more resisted element (like fire) and that's reflected in the requestables catalog.

compare;

Quote:

+5 Enhancement
1d10 Physical, Positive, Magical and Divine
Keen
1d6 Mass Crit

Quote:

+5 Enhancement
1d10 Elemental or Sonic Damage
Keen
1d8 Mass Crit

there is a trade off there. want big crit damage? no unresistable damage. and if you go for fire (the most resisted element) im sure the mass crit dmg would be ratcheted up as well.

1d10 isn't just a little put it in the hands of a WM with x4 crits and that becomes a lot. My issue isn't with having divine dmg on a weapon as long as there is significant rp to back it up and one involving a higher power since that is where divine dmg comes from.

No_Dice_13 wrote:

1d10 isn't just a little put it in the hands of a WM with x4 crits and that becomes a lot. My issue isn't with having divine dmg on a weapon as long as there is significant rp to back it up and one involving a higher power since that is where divine dmg comes from.

oh if that's your beef then you just have to trust in the DM team there that people getting it 'deserve' it.

but some unresistable damage is healthy for balance. things should have weaknesses, unresistable damage is a weakness.

Commie wrote:

It's really just a small bit of unresistable damage.

It's 1d10 tops. It's nothing. It's flavor. It's the boon you get for getting a weapon that's weaker in other ways, stronger other enchantments need a more resisted element (like fire) and that's reflected in the requestables catalog.

compare;

Quote:

+5 Enhancement
1d10 Physical, Positive, Magical and Divine
Keen
1d6 Mass Crit

Quote:

+5 Enhancement
1d10 Elemental or Sonic Damage
Keen
1d8 Mass Crit

there is a trade off there. want big crit damage? no unresistable damage. and if you go for fire (the most resisted element) im sure the mass crit dmg would be ratcheted up as well.

The fact you think 1d2 mass crit damage is a real trade off for knowing 100% that you will allways deal 1d10 damage is kind of funny, given if you also factor in that mass crit only works on crits so unless you score one on that attack so minimum of what 50% chance, avg more like 25%?

And you keep saying things like

Quote:

unresistable damage is healthy for balance. things should have weaknesses, unresistable damage is a weakness.

But till you can support that will real valid arguments its just arbitrary like the current stance seems to be.

The fact of the matter is divine is now the be all end all of damage types requested because it can still be requested at the damage range of 1d10 with very minor weaknesses when you think of the fact they have items that can completely negate the 10 damage from all the elemental types rendering them damage less on all but critical hits and I don't think a single monster has divine resistance.

My personal opinion on the matter is that unresistable damage is neccessary for balance.

And now why? Let's look at things that have high AC. MY most extreme example is a Pale Master. I can build a Pale Master to have over 400 hp and around 75 armor. Even if he wasn't crit immune, he'd effectively be cit immune. now, he gets hit on a 20. 5% chance to deal damage. Now, he goes on to get 5/physical. Then some regen. Let's say 5 regen, which is easy enough with the Djinn shop. In fact, most numbers coming here are from the Djinn. 5 regen, 5 DR to all physical, 10/- to fire, cold and 15/- elec, the three easiest damage types, and the damage types of Flame Weapon. I have an item slot free, which I need to put one power on in advance. Two free slots mythal power. Let's say four because requests > mythal system. I can cast as many spells as a normal Wizard, have a few good spells, of course only Necromancy, but that's powerful enough. This equipment is also achievable on any other build, where I even fit a total of 12 Mythal powers, that the PM uses for Int. Since I already have a +12 to Con, +2 to Str I gain two powers from not needing Int and going Str instead, meaning another class gets damage and, for example DR (DwD, Barb), AB (WM), KC buffs, and hp (anything with more than d6 hp). As long as I can get damage from somewhere, it would work. My PM would love to have 5/- divine and magic, because those are the two things that realistically hurt him. Same for any other "tank". And with that equipment, dying is pretty difficult. The regen on top of DR and possibly AC means you take almost no damage, and you heal enough every round. Yeah, damage isn't neccessarily that great, but KC does 1d10+10 when you hit him on top of 10% physical resist, Barb has damage from rages. You want something that helps you kill really durable enemies, where straight damage doesn't help you neccessarily.

Personally, I think divine damage on a weapon is WAY more powerful than d2 on a crit, but that is something I'd change, rather than making tanks more... tanky. I even think if it was 1d8 massive crits and 1d12 elemental damage, divine would still be better. That is where I personally would change it. Make Divine have a slightly lower cap, maybe 1d8 max, rather than 1d10. Or raise elemental damage to 1d12 on that weapon.

The point Cory is trying to make is why there is no divine resist items allowed through request yet there are still many weapon requests for divine dmg on weapons. I gave the reasoning behind it from what was talked about with the other team and DMs. That said I still think it shouldn't be so easily requested as a dmg without significant rp to back it up. Asking a Djinn to make you a weapon with divine dmg seems to me, imo, an easy way out to get regardless of the DCs spent on the weapon or having some cleric imbue your weapon with divine energies. Magic dmg I can roll with, positive even, but divine dmg, that type of energy comes from a divine source, i.e. a god it is why cleric, BGs, and pallies all have spells/abilities that deal divine. And you can't say having a dmg type that isn't resistable is good for balance. This is an rp server not a pvp junkie one, you can try to say it is for balance but in reality most, not all, folks just want a dmg that other PCs can't resist in case of a pvp situation or a dmg type that epic bosses can't resist.

Speaking as someone who recently got one of these weapons, I'll say this: Honestly? It's -slightly- better than the Trueforged she had before for everyday PVE and bossrunning. A lot of things still resist divine or seem to (bosses). As for PVP? Ehh, I still see it as -slightly- better. Most people don't have immunity to everything, and I don't think they should. That said, if you make it 1D6 or 1D8, I want a refund or an exchange.

This is the first weapon I've ever requested, first time ever having anything like this, and I'd rather not see it taken away after only a week. I don't think it's an overpowering damage, even on a critical. Does it mean that if I hit a player, I am guaranteed 1 to 10 damage? Perhaps. However, isn't the point of hitting something to actually do damage to it? Silly question. Perhaps we need to take a look at how much DR and resist gear is available then.... as it seems some people have immunity to everything -but- divine damage apparently.

To me, THAT is unfair and unbalanced.

Like I said it is just my opinion on divine dmg, this is not a thread to make any decisions on taking away stuff, Like I said I am not against having it put on weapons as long as there is a good reason as to why. Again though this was a thread Cory asked as to why the divine dmg resist stuff isn't available, the reason for it is that it was agreed upon that a divine energy source shouldn't be able to be resisted since it would technically be coming from a god etc etc. The magic resist was taken out more due to the fact that when you drop you suffer 1 magic dmg until you reach -10 if you resist magic dmg it can just endlessly go on until you stabilize and since we can't change the dmg type this was the easier route, as well as the fact that again magical dmg shouldn't be so easily shrugged off. Hopefully that helps answer your question Cory, as for the divine dmg stuff I'll leave that for another thread.

Uhm. Then that went weirdly, due to two things. First off, regen does the same thing for death. Second, after a while, like a minute or two, even with regen staying at the same health and no stabilizing, you just die. Both happened to me, which makes it seem like a weird reason for "no magic resist". And magic percentage resist? Same reason? Then why does Shield give you magic percentage resist?

Also, shouldn't negative energy be just as strong as positive energy? Shouldn't RP-wise divine damage weapons simply not be a thing?

BGs have abilities that come a from a god and deal divine damage? What about Unholy Sword, an almost useless spell, and very, very, VERY much worse than Holy Sword. Why does that deal negative, if it comes from a divine being?

Basically, this thread is about whether we want Divine Damage to be resistable. I just gave valid arguments, and right afterwards someone implies I simply want to grind bosses or am a PvP junkie. Thanks for that.

Quote:

folks just want a dmg that other PCs can't resist in case of a pvp situation or a dmg type that epic bosses can't resist.

I also love how people asked for valid arguments why it should be unresitable, and all I get after providing these is a:

Quote:

And you can't say having a dmg type that isn't resistable is good for balance.

corypx wrote:

Commie wrote:

It's really just a small bit of unresistable damage.

It's 1d10 tops. It's nothing. It's flavor. It's the boon you get for getting a weapon that's weaker in other ways, stronger other enchantments need a more resisted element (like fire) and that's reflected in the requestables catalog.

compare;

Quote:

+5 Enhancement
1d10 Physical, Positive, Magical and Divine
Keen
1d6 Mass Crit

Quote:

+5 Enhancement
1d10 Elemental or Sonic Damage
Keen
1d8 Mass Crit

there is a trade off there. want big crit damage? no unresistable damage. and if you go for fire (the most resisted element) im sure the mass crit dmg would be ratcheted up as well.

The fact you think 1d2 mass crit damage is a real trade off for knowing 100% that you will allways deal 1d10 damage is kind of funny, given if you also factor in that mass crit only works on crits so unless you score one on that attack so minimum of what 50% chance, avg more like 25%?

And you keep saying things like

Quote:

unresistable damage is healthy for balance. things should have weaknesses, unresistable damage is a weakness.

But till you can support that will real valid arguments its just arbitrary like the current stance seems to be.

The fact of the matter is divine is now the be all end all of damage types requested because it can still be requested at the damage range of 1d10 with very minor weaknesses when you think of the fact they have items that can completely negate the 10 damage from all the elemental types rendering them damage less on all but critical hits and I don't think a single monster has divine resistance.

i don't want to say anything specific because I don't want to call out build specifics.

but via a combination of custom requestables and custom gear, some people found ways to make themselves functionally invincible by stacking % immunity, resist, soak, 10 or more resist to every element, plus improved evasion from an item, and then throwing on damage dealing shields like elemental shield while still keeping up over ten regen. with magic resist gone things like missile swarm can kill these people, and with divine resist gone someone with a divine damage weapon can kill these people.

even nowadays post custom scripting, something like shifter 11 dwd 14 that focused on wraith form, con, and DR was actually 100% unkillable if they stacked resist and regen, and had shit like hips/inp invis/solid damage to boot, and was able to do 'the build' without any custom stuff.

now that functional invincibility is gone, everyone is breathing a sigh of relief.

because lore/story/plot or no, it's still a video-game and there has to be some semblance of balance given that people can fight one another.

Sorry but magic resist broke the balance of the game. It made many, many mage spells like IGMS completely useless and was part of the effort to correct that.

Also basically what Dicey said. Divine damage is something lore wise, hey we are an RP server, and balance wise we felt that shouldn't have a resistance. Divine damage is suppose to be that, divine. The divine resistance didn't even work against common things such as Paladin's Divine Might divine damage.

Divine damage is suppose to be rare and powerful, and you all running around with divine resistance and immunity did more damage to the DMs. Mechanical wise, having Divine DR is virtually worthless except those rare cases where we might use it for balance reasons and/or DM events.

Maverick00053 wrote:

Sorry but magic resist broke the balance of the game. It made many, many mage spells like IGMS completely useless and was part of the effort to correct that.

I now feel bad for having an item that has magic resist (which i bought years ago, very legally!) and feel like some DM should take it away from me. I dont like having stuff that breaks the game that no one else can have.

yeah i think they culled or did cull all MR and DR gear via a script.

it's possible some request gear didn't get changed, but I think you were supposed to step up and ask to have it adjusted.

I don't understand then why divine damage is such a prevalent thing then. If it is so rare, why does almost every weapon have it on it, if we are only looking at the RP of things.

I don't understand that, if it is so rare and powerful, it can be requested, and simply has a slightly higher price on it. In light of this, what you said actually isn't true.

Quote:

Mechanical wise, having Divine DR is virtually worthless except those rare cases where we might use it for balance reasons and/or DM events.

I now know at least two characters having divine DR against would actually be helpful, just based off of request from the last two weeks.

Literally any character would benefit from divine resistance because it's a resistance.

The goal of the balance shift was to make sure there was some kind of unreistable damage for balance reasons. That's also the reason people use it, and it gives some flair to an item.

Commie wrote:

yeah i think they culled or did cull all MR and DR gear via a script.

it's possible some request gear didn't get changed, but I think you were supposed to step up and ask to have it adjusted.

It wasn't a request item, just one I bought in a store (I won't say which one) at ~least~ 4 years ago ('cause that's how long I was away!) before the script went in. But if some DM wants to either take it away, or just remove the MR resistance from it, I'll gladly oblige.

CratzBlade113 wrote:

Commie wrote:

yeah i think they culled or did cull all MR and DR gear via a script.

it's possible some request gear didn't get changed, but I think you were supposed to step up and ask to have it adjusted.

It wasn't a request item, just one I bought in a store (I won't say which one) at ~least~ 4 years ago ('cause that's how long I was away!) before the script went in. But if some DM wants to either take it away, or just remove the MR resistance from it, I'll gladly oblige.

what are the stats if I may ask? can you screenshot the item?

I find it a bit strange that it is justified with the lore of divine damage, but half of that lore just is ignored.

robbi320 wrote:

I find it a bit strange that it is justified with the lore of divine damage, but half of that lore just is ignored.

Because it's still a video game and a source or sources of unresistable damage is healthy for balance reasons. Both for DM's making content (so they don't have to worry about DC McGee just trivializing the encounters with custom resist gear) and as a catch-all for beating defensive builds in pvp.

Commie wrote:

CratzBlade113 wrote:

Commie wrote:

yeah i think they culled or did cull all MR and DR gear via a script.

it's possible some request gear didn't get changed, but I think you were supposed to step up and ask to have it adjusted.

It wasn't a request item, just one I bought in a store (I won't say which one) at ~least~ 4 years ago ('cause that's how long I was away!) before the script went in. But if some DM wants to either take it away, or just remove the MR resistance from it, I'll gladly oblige.

what are the stats if I may ask? can you screenshot the item?

Not atm, I'm at school and won't be home for a bit. I can do it later.

I guess the impression I get now, sharing a few of Cory's concerns but also understanding at least the goal of the dev team's change, is that there really is no reason to request any other damage on a weapon other than divine now. Physical can be resisted. Elemental damage surely can. And baring special case by case stuff, if the highest dX you're going to allow on a one handed weapon is 1d10, then by all means it never is not a benefit to request divine rather than physical or something else, optimally speaking.

Rarity isn't really somethint you can measure or qualify in a situation where the only dividing line between having it and not having it is asking. As well, there is no class or building requirement for it. Even if you're not a divine class, you can ask for someone else to forge it for you.

I get the reasons for having an irresistible damage, but as long as you offer it on weapons at the same amount allowed for others, you've basically set the norm for endgame strategies.

Maverick00053 wrote:

Sorry but magic resist broke the balance of the game. It made many, many mage spells like IGMS completely useless and was part of the effort to correct that.

Also basically what Dicey said. Divine damage is something lore wise, hey we are an RP server, and balance wise we felt that shouldn't have a resistance. Divine damage is suppose to be that, divine. The divine resistance didn't even work against common things such as Paladin's Divine Might divine damage.

Divine damage is suppose to be rare and powerful, and you all running around with divine resistance and immunity did more damage to the DMs. Mechanical wise, having Divine DR is virtually worthless except those rare cases where we might use it for balance reasons and/or DM events.

See and you can solve the first part with magic damage by saying sure no magic resist but you can have some magic immunity given the DMs have now set the standard cap for immunity on items at 50%.... people seem to have the fear that "immunity" is so much more powerful then resistance/reduction and that's wrong almost all of the time.

If the DMs did not have such a fear of the moniker "Immunity" they could fix the so called balance problems and not make items useless. Lets look at the case of the item that had magic resistance +5 AC, 5/magic and 32 SR.

Magic missile NWN standard is 1d4+1 so yes 5/magic made it useless even if you rolled maxed on all 5 shots

Isaac's lesser missile storm 1d6 so 5/magic more or less renders it useless as assuming you do max damage every hit and you only get 10 shots per cast, max you could do is 1 damage per hit meaning it does 10 damage total

Isaac's greater missile storm 2d6 points of magical damage 5/ magic does not make it mathematically useless but you would have to be rolling max damage each hit to make it worth your wild, for the sake of numbers max damage would be 12-5=7 7 magic damage per hit for 10 shots =70 damage total.

Immunity allows low damage to still have a effect and hit them for damage, resistance on the other hand outright negates the damage

Lets say you replaced the 5/magic on the item with 50% immunity for the sake of simple math still using max damage calculations.

Magic missile is 5/2=2.5 so 2-3 damage (( I forget if it rounds up or down)) but we will low ball it and say 2 damage x 5 = 10 damage.
Isaac's lesser missile storm 6/2=3 so 3 damage x 10 = 30 damage
Isaac's greater missile storm 12/2=6 so 6 damage x 10 is 60 damage

Yes IGMS did 10 less damage then vs resistance because we used max damage and immunity scales better the higher the damage, but in truth I assume they would have tossed on 25% immunity on the item not 50%, I just wanted mostly rounded number to make it easy.

The point that its "divine" means nothing its not granted by the gods themselves , I can think of a logical LORE way that one might attempt to produce resistance or immunity to divine damage and I would be more then happy to speak to a DM about it.

And when you say stuff like "Divine damage is suppose to be rare and powerful" Yet its requested and will be passed on I assume all requests its not super rare, its super common and you would be more hard pressed to find a DC item with a player requesting negative energy.

Quote:

The point that its "divine" means nothing its not granted by the gods themselves , I can think of a logical LORE way that one might attempt to produce resistance or immunity to divine damage and I would be more then happy to speak to a DM about it.

I would be interested in hearing how someone could do this because I really don't think you can.

Commie wrote:

Quote:

The point that its "divine" means nothing its not granted by the gods themselves , I can think of a logical LORE way that one might attempt to produce resistance or immunity to divine damage and I would be more then happy to speak to a DM about it.

I would be interested in hearing how someone could do this because I really don't think you can.

Again I would share it with a DM, I'm big on effort, work and logic should be the main factors on something getting passed assuming its not super balance breaking and so far I have yet to see a good or logical argument to say divine DR or Immunity is such and would love for it to no longer be black listed so I can make the attempt to create it. I don't think most people would request divine DR or immunity should it get passed but why rob people of the chance to try

As my math showed for magic missile and the 5/magic, Immunity is a far better option for things like Divine and magic and I think is the best option for balance and DM and players could be very happy with. it makes it so the damage types still have effect almost no matter what ((I say almost because NWN wiki says))

Quote:

Immunity rounds down for the amount which it absorbs, but (if present) it will always absorb at least one damage of its damage type. For example, a creature with 50% immunity will, for a 1 damage blow, absorb the entire damage, but for a 3 damage blow only 1 damage will be absorbed and the creature will take 2 damage. examples, 10% on 17 and 5% on 9 both absorb one point

so a 1d10 divine weapon if you passed 10 resistance cancels it out more or less, 5/- means they have to hit 6 or higher to do damage so if your lucky half of the time you deal damage, but even at 50% immunity you would deal damage so long as you don't roll a 1, that's a 90% chance to always harm them to some degree.

yeah but then you just stack regen and suddenly you're out healing the only thing that can damage you. Getting 15ish regen is easy when you're a shifter and you only get one stat item. So +3 con +3 str +3 dex then 24 regen. Or 10 regen and 20ish resist to everything and the +5 soak shield too.

look at that undead shifter dwd build I linked earlier, with divine/magic resist wraith form it would be actually unkillable. the only reason you can kill risen lord is because of the damage type weakness.

I genuinely think magic and divine DR is unhealthy for server balance.

Lore reasons aside, there are gameplay reasons why they shouldn't exist, and there comes a time when you have to make concessions for the sake of game balance. Ioun stones by lore are infinitely stackable, but we don't allow that for obvious reasons. Same deal here.

Commie wrote:

yeah but then you just stack regen and suddenly you're out healing the only thing that can damage you. Getting 15ish regen is easy when you're a shifter and you only get one stat item. So +3 con +3 str +3 dex then 24 regen. Or 10 regen and 20ish resist to everything and the +5 soak shield too.

look at that undead shifter dwd build I linked earlier, with divine/magic resist wraith form it would be actually unkillable. the only reason you can kill risen lord is because of the damage type weakness.

If said wraith build is such a threat how come we don't have any running around.... maybe because your numbers are inflated and wrong, 20ish resist to everything.....list all the items on the server we have with 20 resist also everything would be ((Fire,acid,cold,electric,sonic and positive)) and as you said 5 soak shield so that slot is taken now, and don't forget you said 10 regen as well.

TormakSaber wrote:

I genuinely think magic and divine DR is unhealthy for server balance.

Lore reasons aside, there are gameplay reasons why they shouldn't exist, and there comes a time when you have to make concessions for the sake of game balance. Ioun stones by lore are infinitely stackable, but we don't allow that for obvious reasons. Same deal here.

DR being just damage resistance or any form of reduction?

Because as the math shows immunity could be a health option as it prevents damage from being outright ignored and instead only reduced, because to say its unhealthy for server balance yet its handed out at the same damage as say a weapon with fire or negative energy is very odd.

corypx wrote:

Commie wrote:

yeah but then you just stack regen and suddenly you're out healing the only thing that can damage you. Getting 15ish regen is easy when you're a shifter and you only get one stat item. So +3 con +3 str +3 dex then 24 regen. Or 10 regen and 20ish resist to everything and the +5 soak shield too.

look at that undead shifter dwd build I linked earlier, with divine/magic resist wraith form it would be actually unkillable. the only reason you can kill risen lord is because of the damage type weakness.

If said wraith build is such a threat how come we don't have any running around.... maybe because your numbers are inflated and wrong, 20ish resist to everything.....list all the items on the server we have with 20 resist also everything would be ((Fire,acid,cold,electric,sonic and positive)) and as you said 5 soak shield so that slot is taken now, and don't forget you said 10 regen as well.

you get dwd dr, which stacks with epic dr, pick up energy resist and epic energy resist because that's your whole gimmick, and then throw on some gear with energy resist and regen. +10/+15 resist to an element and 1 or two regen is something that you can just find or make from yellow gear.

dwd 14 is 9 dr, throw on 9 more from the feats, that's 18, plus 5 more from glorious death and now you're at 23 dr with one item. 20+ resist is easy as piss to get with the feats and then some minor gear. So then just slot regen. You can't actually benefit from con with that build (you're over the max cap with how shifting/stats work) so you need a grand total of 3 dex and 3 str, rest is literally only resist and regen.

meanwhile you can't be crit, have hips, imp invis, total mind immunity, and all kinds of other stuff. throw on minor globe of invul and not even searing light can get you. and you have high 50's ac.

why doesn't anyone do it? beats me. I think defense builds like that are boring. but if mr and dr existed, it wouldn't really be beatable.

edit; also that form has imp evasion built in. so no dmg spellz either. half damage on evocation is the best you get.

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Really, ok so undead feat, 3 levels of epic DR and then you need acid, cold, electrical, fire, and sonic Epic energy resistance so that's what 9 feats needed to be taken at 21 or after, but don't you only get general feats at 21, 24, 27, 30, The epic dwarven defender gains a bonus feat every four levels. starting at 14 and that's where you ending so you get 5 feats after 21 so are you not missing 4 more feats for all this stuff you wanted.

And comments like throw on Minor globe of invulnerability......Your Druid/shifter DWD with no UMD and no Wiz/sorc or cleric levels will be keeping up that spell 24/7.

corypx wrote:

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Really, ok so undead feat, 3 levels of epic DR and then you need acid, cold, electrical, fire, and sonic Epic energy resistance so that's what 9 feats needed to be taken at 21 or after, but don't you only get general feats at 21, 24, 27, 30, The epic dwarven defender gains a bonus feat every four levels. starting at 14 and that's where you ending so you get 5 feats after 21 so are you not missing 4 more feats for all this stuff you wanted.

And comments like throw on Minor globe of invulnerability......Your Druid/shifter DWD with no UMD and no Wiz/sorc or cleric levels will be keeping up that spell 24/7.

you can get minor globe on items bought from a vendor. you could also dc request it as it's a low level spell.

you don't need all the resistance feats, just the ones you don't want to gear as hard for. It's the difference between needing a +15 element resist gear for a damage type or just skating by with a +5 and relying on your feats.

edit; you don't even need epic resist to hit +20 in all resistances and wraith form has cold/neg immunity iirc. making it even EASIER to gear resistance. you only need fire/acid/electric and some sonic if you're actually worried about sonic (you really shouldn't be)

^^^^ edited that post a few times.

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Commie wrote:

corypx wrote:

Commie wrote:

you get dwd dr, which stacks with epic dr, pick up energy resist and epic energy resist because that's your whole gimmick, and then throw on some gear with energy resist and regen. +10/+15 resist to an element and 1 or two regen is something that you can just find or make from yellow gear.

dwd 14 is 9 dr, throw on 9 more from the feats, that's 18, plus 5 more from glorious death and now you're at 23 dr with one item. 20+ resist is easy as piss to get with the feats and then some minor gear. So then just slot regen. You can't actually benefit from con with that build (you're over the max cap with how shifting/stats work) so you need a grand total of 3 dex and 3 str, rest is literally only resist and regen.

meanwhile you can't be crit, have hips, imp invis, total mind immunity, and all kinds of other stuff. throw on minor globe of invul and not even searing light can get you. and you have high 50's ac.

why doesn't anyone do it? beats me. I think defense builds like that are boring. but if mr and dr existed, it wouldn't really be beatable.

edit; also that form has imp evasion built in. so no dmg spellz either. half damage on evocation is the best you get.

Really, ok so undead feat, 3 levels of epic DR and then you need acid, cold, electrical, fire, and sonic Epic energy resistance so that's what 9 feats needed to be taken at 21 or after, but don't you only get general feats at 21, 24, 27, 30, The epic dwarven defender gains a bonus feat every four levels. starting at 14 and that's where you ending so you get 5 feats after 21 so are you not missing 4 more feats for all this stuff you wanted.

And comments like throw on Minor globe of invulnerability......Your Druid/shifter DWD with no UMD and no Wiz/sorc or cleric levels will be keeping up that spell 24/7.

you can get minor globe on items bought from a vendor. you could also dc request it as it's a low level spell.

you don't need all the resistance feats, just the ones you don't want to gear as hard for. It's the difference between needing a +15 element resist gear for a damage type or just skating by with a +5 and relying on your feats.

edit; you don't even need epic resist to hit +20 in all resistances and wraith form has cold/neg immunity iirc. making it even EASIER to gear resistance. you only need fire/acid/electric and some sonic if you're actually worried about sonic (you really shouldn't be)

Commie this was a thread trying to really talk about balance you make claims that are not true like stating that they can get 20 to all resistance, I prove your wrong with FACTS cluttering up the thread every time I have reply to your incorrect posts to avoid others taking it as correct making the thread look like nothing more then us to fighting and might scare away real talks about balance and all you do is then you just turn around and say well you don't really need them anyway......

I think its best if you stepped away from the thread and allowed people who will make true statements and back them up instead of make false claims be proven wrong, fluff it off and continue to do it anyway.

corypx wrote:

Commie this was a thread trying to really talk about balance you make claims that are not true like stating that they can get 20 to all resistance, I prove your wrong with FACTS cluttering up the thread every time I have reply to your incorrect posts to avoid others taking it as correct making the thread look like nothing more then us to fighting and might scare away real talks about balance and all you do is then you just turn around and say well you don't really need them anyway......

I think its best if you stepped away from the thread and allowed people who will make true statements and back them up instead of make false claims be proven wrong, fluff it off and continue to do it anyway.

Quote:

Class Race Druid(5), Shifter(11), Dwarven Defender(14), Dwarf

Abilies STR: 11
DEX: 14
CON: 19 (26)
WIS: 10
INT: 14
CHA: 6

30 Dwarf: (Darkvision, Defensive Training vs. Giants, Stonecunning, Hardiness vs. Poison, Hardiness vs. Spells, Offensive Training vs. Goblinoids, Offensive Training vs. Orcs, Skill Affinity: Lore)
Dr 01: Druid(1): Alertness
Dr 02: Druid(2)
Dr 03: Druid(3): Iron Will
Dr 04: Druid(4): CON+1, (CON=20)
Dr 05: Druid(5)
Sh 06: Shifter(1): Dodge
Sh 07: Shifter(2)
Sh 08: Shifter(3): CON+1, (CON=21)
Sh 09: Shifter(4): Toughness
Sh 10: Shifter(5)
Sh 11: Shifter(6)
Sh 12: Shifter(7): CON+1, Resist Energy: Fire, (CON=22)
Sh 13: Shifter(8)
Sh 14: Shifter(9)
Sh 15: Shifter(10): Resist Energy: Acid
DD 16: Dwarven Defender(1): CON+1, {Defensive Stance}, (CON=23)
DD 17: Dwarven Defender(2): {Defensive Awareness I}
DD 18: Dwarven Defender(3): Resist Energy: Electricity
DD 19: Dwarven Defender(4)
DD 20: Dwarven Defender(5): CON+1, (CON=24)
Sh 21: Shifter(11): Undead Shape
DD 22: Dwarven Defender(6)
DD 23: Dwarven Defender(7)
DD 24: Dwarven Defender(8): CON+1, Armor Skin, (CON=25)
DD 25: Dwarven Defender(9)
DD 26: Dwarven Defender(10)
DD 27: Dwarven Defender(11): Epic Damage Reduction I
DD 28: Dwarven Defender(12): CON+1, (CON=26)
DD 29: Dwarven Defender(13)
DD 30: Dwarven Defender(14): Epic Damage Reduction II, Epic Damage Reduction III

Now get 15 resist gear to fire/acid/electric which you can get from yellow gear, and +3 str and +3 dex somewhere. sonic you can handle only 5 or 10 resist to because the only thing that seems to do it is spells nobody uses or some random items that seem to cap at 1d6. You are immune to neg and cold. regen every other gear slot. Donezo.

Build made in about 2 minutes so it is not optimized.

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You don't get it and I don't think you will, you made a statement.... this statement

Commie wrote:

Or 10 regen and 20ish resist to everything and the +5 soak shield too.

That build does not contain 20ish resist to everything, everything means ALL THE THINGS!

You even say in that you can handle 5-10 sonic because its not a big deal it doe not come up often, and that's fine I agree Sonics not a big deal or is positive ... my point is your making statements that are still incorrect and assuming the DMs and devs are reading this to discuss balance if they take what you say at face value they could be basing stuff off flawed numbers and information.

All I want is for you to be more accurate with your claims and state 20ish fire, electric and acid damages next time.

DR,Regen and Immunity is math class you know what that means

I disagree. 20 acid, 20 fire, 20 electric, immune cold, immune neg, X sonic (you could do 20 with gear and there's like 40 resist rings), X poz (djinn sells poz resist), and some 24 to all physical.

you could very very easily gear to get 20 to all resistances. You have the free slots. And you'd still have plenty left over for regen.

Divine DR and immunity.

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