AMIA ARCHIVE • View topic - Blackguard- to gimp or not to gimp? Shouldn't be a question

TormakSaber wrote:

Brief Tormak Tl;dr of how to fix BG in his humbledore:

1: Make Abyssal Might and Demon Flesh last hours/level. Abyssal Might stacks with Bulls stacks with BG bulls so this is actually really good.
2: Make Demon Flesh 1 AC/3 CL and max at +5. This means BGs get instant gear viability.
3: Fix all three of the summons so they're properly balanced. LE is a greataxe bigby spamming SLAYER, NE is a self-hasted, self-autofearing, billion skill having, buff casting, DC 57 Mass Blind spamming crossbow user. Yes, for reals, it will cast GMW, flame wep, freedom and imp invis on you, too. CE is... a bad dual weilding rogue. Sorry CE blackguards. Epic Summon defines the BG class.
4: Veil of Shadow should scale with class level and max at 50%, given how easy Imp Invis is to get. Alternately, you could go in some other directions and do things like give it bonus saves, or skills, or slight damage resistnces. The same could happen with Obscuring Mist in Assassin.

re: wis/cha casting - I'm torn here - yes, BGs and Paladins in PF cast on charisma, in 3.5 they're both wisdom, but in NWN you don't get the full spellbook complement and it's not viable to do so.

Paladin is hella stronger than BG and always will be, there's no fixing that imho without vast hak changes. but you can close the gap and better define the classes.

PS: Contagion's DC is static and isn't affected by wisdom or spell foci, same for Poison.

Spell stuffs^

Also recommend upping the NE and CE more than debuffing the LE - and recommend removing all the special scripted stuff the NE has attached to it - or giving it to every summon.

Good ideas. All of them.

Agreed with Tormak and Raven. The class is already gimped to hell, why punish it further? That's the opposite of why this thread exists.
We want people to have substance to a prestige class people rarely pick anymore due, simply, to it being mechanically stunted for what it is: A killer class that can't kill. PvM, sure, but you don't have a technique called "smite good" so you can fight the ever vigilant and kind snowbeast (not that I trust a 16 BG build could solo snowy). To my knowledge, there aren't -any- good aligned spawns to fight and never have been outside events.

I'm pretty sure widgets could be made for BG spells. While I don't actually know the status or members of our current dev team aside from one, if we have even a couple of the old devs left (stares with lusty, longing eyes at Raven), they're more than talented enough to, at least, widget up some spells
.
If we actually don't have the man power, I'm willing to throw myself at the mercy of a few old Amian devs I still keep in contact with and ask if they could write up the scripts in exchange for... I don't know, pizza? People like pizza. I'll order a dev a pizza if it means we balance out a class -long- overdue for being brought up to code.

I have a 16 bg that solo's Snow Monkey.

You could switch their Eagles Splendor to the old Harper class Eagles Splendor feat which is no longer used. That would stack with potions and give the BG more gearing space. Right now that feat is only saving a bit of gold it's not an improvement over potions.

That'd also require re-coding the Harper feat to work for Blackguards rather than HS levels.

Summon updates are in. Gogogo.

Yussss. I can't see the other two summons but yusssss none the less.

Cool!, Can we see the changes somewhere ?

Any chance the ideas for improving the wisdom based abilities will be implemented eventually or are they dead in the water?

Its on my to do list.

Awwwwwwwwwwww snap!

I just want to say that as someone who has wanted changes to this class for like four years I'm super excited about it.

The wisdom "required, not based" skills are not so terrible. For balancing issues, the only thing that really needs looked at is either the duration or the number of times per day you can use them. I should mention though, that I disagree with the spirit of this thread as Blackguards are plenty strong, the only disadvantage they have is being a prestige class, not a base class. The Pally/DC/Rogue combo edges them in that respect, as the The BG equivalent almost has to be a dex based, ED rogue build that loses ab in favor of sustained AC, epic dodge and huge sneaks. Both builds are very strong and in PVE, and unbuffed PVP, the BG gets it.
Demon Flesh is pretty trash though. I will admit that. Chances are your gear exceeds it before you even get the widget.
With a 16 level investment, you get an anazing summon. This is huge. HUGE. Paladins get a book at creation, and often require constant div might/ shield spamming to keep up with others...unless you are a STR pally.

*for a brief cha boost, you can buy necklaces that give aura of glory*

The Strength blackguard is honestly not all that bad compared to the dex, but it is a farm more damage focused counterpart because of how hard it can hit with divine damage and sneak attacks if you manage to flank. It's sort of an unusual play style since NWN has sort of a face tanking mechanic of using damage to hold aggro so all the high ac people can sneak attack but you need to flank so that you can sneak attack.

But yeah, I will state for the record that none of the good blackguard builds even use the wisdom abilities because taking 14 wisdom is basically suicide; the MASD requirements of the class basically mean that you're either dysfunctional mechanically or ignore your spell likes entirely so that you can compete with other builds since you need three stats STR/DEX, WIS, CHA. At the very least the paladin gets a large number of very useful, very powerful spells out of it; the blackguard abilities generally under perform and as a prestige class investing three stats in it makes no sense.

bobofwestoregonusa wrote:

taking 14 wisdom is basically suicide

Uhhh...*gulp*

What's MASD by the way?

thetangerinetornado wrote:

bobofwestoregonusa wrote:

taking 14 wisdom is basically suicide

Uhhh...*gulp*

What's MASD by the way?

multiple ability score dependent. Also called 'MAD' or 'that build is mad as hell.'

A strength monk for example, need str, need dex for ac, need wisdom for ac, need con for HP. Very mad build.

18 RDD 2 bard 10 fight, Not 'mad' at all, needs str and con.

All of this has been stated already and Mav said the spells are on his to do list so I guess it's a waiting game and a SEVERE HOPING that the easy way isn't taken and the spells are moved to CHA based casting so we can actually have a prestige class worthy of being called a prestige class rather than further crippling a crippled build with an unnecessary WIS dump. As Rob said, taking 14 wisdom is basically build suicide. It entirely is. BG's don't get enough feats to make up for that missing +3 to the most necessary of their ability modifiers (STR, DEX, CHA). It's the only prestige class on Amia right now that requires all four in order to take advantage of spells that don't compensate for the MADness. Seven spells for an actual score dump is terrible considering the weakness of the spells.

Thunderbrush, that summon you can -choose- to get at 16 BG does not make up for the gimped class. At all. You don't get your fiend auto upgraded at 16, you have to take a feat specifically to do so. This feat could be spent on any other epic feat but BG's are almost harangued into taking it for survival sake.
Even with it, Paladin's still completely destroy them unbuffed as they don't -need- to dump into dex and str + wisdom. If my pali went up against my BG unbuffed, there would be zero competition; my paladin would demolish my blackguard. My BG build is about as good as a dex based BG build is going to get and I promise you a single step to a Hector type Pali is complete suicide. They can pump the minimum eight ability points that a BG would have to dump in dex, str, and wis right into charisma giving them a HUGE smite advantage over BG's.

Right now, there is zero reason a BG should have -any- wisdom for mechanical advantage and nothing but reason and empirical evidence saying "go 8 wisdom or you're crippled". Those spells are not worth it considering we have trinkets that not only emulate some BG spells but are more advantageous than them and -any- player can get them.

These should be in the server after the next update. Enjoy.

BG Changes wrote:

BG summons rebalanced/tweaked. NE got an adjustment and CE isn't garbage now.

Demon Flesh = Caps at 5 nAC, progress at 1 nAC per 3 BG. Hours/Turn.

Vein of Shadow =
3 BG = 20% Conceal
6 BG = 30% Conceal
9 BG = 40% Conceal
12 BG = 50% Conceal

UnHoly Avenger = 2 Rounds per Level

I left Abyssal Might alone since it already stacks with bulls might, which makes it beyond top notch.

Awesome stuff for BGs. Thank you, Maverick.

AYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY

Last edited by Nick11689 on Sat, Feb 11 2017, 7:25 AM, edited 1 time in total.

Ayyyyyy! Is it all still WIS based? If so, are BG's getting a free rebuild per the changes because I don't think more than one or two BG's have any wisdom at all and I would love to see the changes firsthand.
Thanks, Mav!

Edit:

I should preface this with "I do appreciate the effort". I really do but this didn't balance a thing.

So I'm going to base this on Veris; if this is WIS based it's still not worth taking. Currently I have 8 wis and sit pretty with 40 dex. Without posting his entire build, I'll just go with what he'd gain and lose number wise.

I'll start out with saying "14 WIS is still build suicide". Holy sword is just barely worth it for palis as is and going 14 WIS for three minutes of it just is not worth it. Abyssal might is still neat but, again, 14 WIS for two spells, only one of which is viably worth it across all builds? That's not balance when we already have to have DEX, STR, and CHA in the build.

Moving on to Veil of Shadows: 50% concealment is absolutely fantastic... however it is by no means worth losing four points of DEX as well as Epic Dodge when I already have the Mask of Disappearing and four other items that cast Improved Invisibility (50% concealment); all of which are available from your local Djinn.

Finally, Demon Flesh. This is, literally, the only spell change that hints at a semblance of balance.
I'd have to drop three DEX, leaving me with my saving grace, Epic Dodge, whilst only dropping one AB, AC, and reflex save (and leaving me with awkward odd number ability scores buuut for sake of constructive balancing's sake I'll ignore that for this). The benefit in this, however, isn't added AC (as natural AC doesn't stack) but rather the freeing up of an amulet slot. With this, I could make up that reflex save easily as well as buff some fun skill points. The only disadvantage is that it can still be dispelled. You could go from perfectly fine in a fight to completely screwed with a simple dispel.
It's still almost worth it.

In the end, I feel I might be okay with an awkward ability score for a free amulet slot but, otherwise, nothing has really changed. I don't feel this has been balanced at all. I understand entirely that making the change to CHA based casting is a dialogue change that would take about thirty minutes between the two modules so your decision to remain WIS based casting is... something I can't understand. You could argue lore but the fact that I'm one of maybe two active blackguards should speak leagues about just how truly shit this class is. I'm still gonna keep on rocking it for the RP fluff but this isn't balanced, Mav. This class -needs- a switch to CHA based casting or it needs a full spell suite. One of these is pretty simple, one requires HAK changes.

Still wisdom based yep. The free rebuild will be up to the rest of the team.

Thanks Mav. I have no issues with it being wis based because it was packed into my build. Its only fair to do it this way, or there is no incentive to take anything but the ED BG, which can still be done with the proper subraces. Improving the widgets gave us more options to build and that's always inviting. Thanks again.

Arkun wrote:

Awesome stuff for BGs. Thank you, Maverick.

I think it would also be a worthwhile change to make epic fiendish servant a normal feat rather than a bonus feat only so that it is available at level 15 as per the feat description.

Pretty sure that's a hak change, and one that in my opinion doesn't do much. I mean, 15 or 16 is such a small difference. Yes there will be people that really feel the difference, but I don't see as a problem, since I can't think of much that would benefit from it. I mean, it seems to me easier to leave it like people are used to, rather than changing it from what Opustus' holy bible the wiki says.

I kind of like the changes. Especially making Veil more useful. And autoextended Unholy Avenger. On the topic of Veil, Assassin's Obscuring Mist is just as useless, if not more, since they get enough casts of Imp Invis. I only ever use it for the VFX...
At the mention of something seeming redundant, I'd love something done to both versions of Deeper Darkness, but that I mainly because 16 minutes of Darkness just seems too long to me. I mean, what's the point of it being that long? (If someone knows, of course they could tell me, I certainly don't see the value)

But, I really like the changes. Subtle enough to not be crazy, good enough to be, well, good. Of course, it still rewards going to either level 3 just for the Aura of Despair (which is noted on the page wrongly as gotten by level, when it was, when I last checked, gotten by an instructor), or going 16. Maybe reducing BG's Divine Favour +5 AB to 18/19, but I'm not that good with balance. It still seems weird that they are worse at being divine casters when they (at least often are RPed as) have a pact with a powerful outsider, or in some other way get their powers from a really, really powerful outsider. Like a deity. Or an Archduke of Hell or something.

That's a change to one cell the CLS_FEAT_BLKGRD.2da I think.

kindlegem wrote:

I think it would also be a worthwhile change to make epic fiendish servant a normal feat rather than a bonus feat only so that it is available at level 15 as per the feat description.

100% agree with this to allow BGs to take it on any BG level not just the BG 16 or 19 bonus feat.

robbi320 wrote:

At the mention of something seeming redundant, I'd love something done to both versions of Deeper Darkness, but that I mainly because 16 minutes of Darkness just seems too long to me. I mean, what's the point of it being that long? (If someone knows, of course they could tell me, I certainly don't see the value)

Deeper darkness doesn't actually give you turns per level, despite what the classes section says, it's an extended version so 2 rounds a level

TormakSaber wrote:

kindlegem wrote:

I think it would also be a worthwhile change to make epic fiendish servant a normal feat rather than a bonus feat only so that it is available at level 15 as per the feat description.

100% agree with this to allow BGs to take it on any BG level not just the BG 16 or 19 bonus feat.

I have several powerful builds that only don't exist because they can't get epic fiend to be honest.

TormakSaber wrote:

kindlegem wrote:

I think it would also be a worthwhile change to make epic fiendish servant a normal feat rather than a bonus feat only so that it is available at level 15 as per the feat description.

100% agree with this to allow BGs to take it on any BG level not just the BG 16 or 19 bonus feat.

Maverick00053 wrote:

These should be in the server after the next update. Enjoy.

BG Changes wrote:

BG summons rebalanced/tweaked. NE got an adjustment and CE isn't garbage now.

Demon Flesh = Caps at 5 nAC, progress at 1 nAC per 3 BG. Hours/Turn.

Vein of Shadow =
3 BG = 20% Conceal
6 BG = 30% Conceal
9 BG = 40% Conceal
12 BG = 50% Conceal

UnHoly Avenger = 2 Rounds per Level

I left Abyssal Might alone since it already stacks with bulls might, which makes it beyond top notch.

Unholy Avenger is still 1 round per level. Tested on A.

I didn't even know the changes were in yet!

The changes aren't in yet.

Have gotten good feedback on the changes, they're hella good.

I think the only real debate is over wis/cha casting, and I think it boils down to how we want to present blackguards - as divine investiture, like paladins and clerics, or as supernatural eldritch-style forces, like sorceror and Warlock and Bard. I actually prefer the latter, myself, as sort of an antithetical foil to the Paladin, but BG leaves itself pretty oepn to interpretation.

CHA casting would undoubtedly be a huge buff for the class - unlike Paladin for whom wisdom gets bonus spell slots and a full spellbook, for BGs it doesnt do quite as much for. I can definitely see the argument going either way.

I am really not inclined to shift the spells over into CHA. Most of the abilities emulate the Paladin's abilities in some capacity and I rather stick with that formula. On top of the fact that their summons are some of the most powerful currently.

Maverick00053 wrote:

I am really not inclined to shift the spells over into CHA. Most of the abilities emulate the Paladin's abilities in some capacity and I rather stick with that formula. On top of the fact that their summons are some of the most powerful currently.

Would you consider making the widgets undispellable then?

14 wisdom is a heavy investment for a class that already needs str/dex and cha and doesn't get the full boon of a paladin spellbook

And almost all of our endgame content dispels like mad.

Meaning you just get fucked over.

Maverick00053 wrote:

I am really not inclined to shift the spells over into CHA. Most of the abilities emulate the Paladin's abilities in some capacity and I rather stick with that formula. On top of the fact that their summons are some of the most powerful currently.

Mav, it's seven spells for the same amount of wisdom a pali needs for a full suite and the dispels render them useless. Those summons can't stand against a paladin and if you want proof, have Lutra hop on Hector for an OOC match up against -any- BG playing right now. Hells, I am pretty sure most DEX WM's could take any BG playing right now. I feel this thread was productive but we still have the problems we started with: Blackguards are a gimped -prestige class-. We have spell alterations, sure, but we still kill ourselves with that 14 WIS and any mage worth their spells can nuke a BG's defenses. Any warrior worth their steel can cut a BG down. Base classes can kick the shit out of even some of the most well made BG's.

I'd like to know why it is you're inclined not to switch it to CHA based. There's no lore stopping them from being near sorcerous forces of evil. Could we... maybe... take a vote? Turn this thing democratic?
We have very few BG players right now and I flat stopped playing mine, partly due to Kamina's time constraints but mainly the fact that I'm rolling a divine assassin that couldn't kill... pretty much anyone.

From the 3E handbook regarding CHA casting:
"Sorcerers create magic the way a poet creates poems, with inborn talent honed by practice. They have no books, no mentors, no theories -- just raw power that they direct at will."

Blackguards are evil personified. They probably were not intently taught how to be evil. Their power comes from their pure evil. There aren't any theories or books on evil based casting and you sure as hell don't have to be wise to be wicked. We, as of now, have no lore based explanation as to how and why a blackguard could cast any of this other than "has made contact with an evil outsider". So what is it keeping you from changing it over?

Their power comes from their patron, and is typically represented in 3.5 as Divine Casting, see: cleric, favored soul, shugenja, paladin, ranger, druid, etc.

While charisma would be a buff for the class, it doesn't, objectively, have a lot of lore basis unless we wanted to assign it that.

Quote:

Spells

A blackguard has the ability to cast a small number of divine spells. To cast a blackguard spell, a blackguard must have a Wisdom score of at least 10 + the spell’s level, so a blackguard with a Wisdom of 10 or lower cannot cast these spells.

Blackguard bonus spells are based on Wisdom, and saving throws against these spells have a DC of 10 + spell level + the blackguard’s Wisdom modifier. When the blackguard gets 0 spells per day of a given spell level he gains only the bonus spells he would be entitled to based on his Wisdom score for that spell level. The blackguard’s spell list appears below. A blackguard has access to any spell on the list and can freely choose which to prepare, just as a cleric. A blackguard prepares and casts spells just as a cleric does (though a blackguard cannot spontaneously cast cure or inflict spells.

Comparing a summon to a great Smite VII paladin is as unfair as comparing a Silver EDK to a Great Smite VII BG/DC. It's specifically what they're made to kill. The comparison is disingenuous.

Blackguard is powerful even without the spells - especially in a dex variant. The STR variant is still powerful and capable of hitting 67 AC when Hasted, and will have UMD and sneak attack, as well as full, or 19 BAB, and can manage Dev. A solid dex one gets 18 or 19 and can get Epic Dodge.

Can get epic dodge... with 14 WIS? Write that up really quick and tell me you'd play it because that's busted. It's hardly disingenuous when the reason we're being told we aren't getting the buff to the class that, basically, the summon is picking up the slack. Don't get me wrong, the summons are damned good but I was saying a fight between the paladin, alone, against both a BG and their summon simultaneously. I'd even wager a DEX wm against a BG, even one as strong as the ones you described, could win that match up. The builds, by the by, presume you have top tier gear and 67AC on a STR build? Possible. Not likely, though and goes to 62 once dispelled and 58 once the haste fades. My DEX variant has a hard time hitting those numbers and maintaining them during a fight.
Flat out, this is busted. You know builds, Tormak. You know that this is a shit prestige class not getting the love it needs. I don't know why you're still dancing around like this.

So, that's it, then. This thread is complete? We got the summons changed and apparently there was positive feedback from the spell changes. If the spell switch to CHA isn't happening, I'd say it's time to lock this thread because we're getting nowhere fast.

I have a bg with 14 wis 14 cha and 26 dex.

if you don't go for wis you can get more skill points and 16~ cha or 18 cha if you eschew int

14 str 16 dex 10 con 10 int 14 wis 14 cha feytouch makes it 8 con but 18 dex 16 cha, 13 rogue 16 BG. You get epic dodge at 27, the same level you get defensive roll off 13 rogue.

Done. Low HP but your saves are sky high, and you have abyssla might + easy gearing between double stacking bulls, abyssal might, and small faitht o fit con on your gear. Rapier and shield. divine might, shield, all spell widgets, epic fiend, epic dodge.

It's actually a really popular build, but in my opinion not as good as the non-wisdom variant.

Quote:

The builds, by the by, presume you have top tier gear and 67AC on a STR build? Possible. Not likely, though and goes to 62 once dispelled and 58 once the haste fades.

55 tumble tank, 8 cha for 63, 67 for haste, 68 mage armor

the typical fighter/rogue/BG STR build is benefitting from the Dispel CL that makes their pots CL 30

divine shield is undispellable, haste is easy to get everywhere as is mage armor

build discussions typically assume endgame gear that is easy to get these days, correct, between the djinn, people having storehouses of gear from years of farming, and doing your own gearing, not touching Dc items.

Gribbo wrote:

I have a bg with 14 wis 14 cha and 26 dex.

Same here. Mine is nearing epic levels so I haven’t hit the PVE zones where greater dispelling is cast by spawns but I’m sure concerned, especially since there’s nothing you can do about it besides not being a BG. Go all in at BG20 and you are still facing a 20% dispel chance.

I don’t think simply waving away the ability to be dispelled is remotely fair, as we certainly have builds which do not take Epic BG levels and do not deserve that benefit. However it would be good for those making a significant commitment to the class to build towards increased immunity to dispelling.

I suggest that BG’s get a bonus to Caster Level equal to +1CL per Class Level above 10. A typical BG 16 would have a CL of 22, which is still subject to Greater Dispelling, though at a much reduced % chance (10% versus the current 40%). This maxes out at CL30 if you happen to go BG20.

thetangerinetornado wrote:

Gribbo wrote:

I have a bg with 14 wis 14 cha and 26 dex.

Same here. Mine is nearing epic levels so I haven’t hit the PVE zones where greater dispelling is cast by spawns but I’m sure concerned, especially since there’s nothing you can do about it besides not being a BG. Go all in at BG20 and you are still facing a 20% dispel chance.

Yeah, and essentially every single late-game area has mobs that dispel. I think the only area that doesn't is the snowbeast area, but they spam storm of vengeance or throw ice-storms that hit for 100 plus and spawn in packs of 5.

thetangerinetornado wrote:

I don’t think simply waving away the ability to be dispelled is remotely fair, as we certainly have builds which do not take Epic BG levels and do not deserve that benefit. However it would be good for those making a significant commitment to the class to build towards increased immunity to dispelling.

Keep in mind on Amia if you don't take spellcasting levels you are functionally immune to PvE dispel, as your CL will be set to 30. If you go 16 BG, your CL is 16. This works on your potions and everything, which is why it's so hard grinding the end-game when your mindblanks/stat pots get eaten every pack.

thetangerinetornado wrote:

I suggest that BG’s get a bonus to Caster Level equal to +1CL per Class Level above 10. A typical BG 16 would have a CL of 22, which is still subject to Greater Dispelling, though at a much reduced % chance (10% versus the current 40%). This maxes out at CL30 if you happen to go BG20.

If this is the route you want to go, I would bump the CL up a bit so the BG that hits 16 bg is at least out of the dispel-range of epic level trash, such as the fire giants, mind-flayers, duergar, sahuagins, etc, that dominate the endgame of amia pve content.

It's ungodly annoying trying to play with a non-dispel bugged character and having to deal with 2/3 dispels a pack. Just repeatedly spamming potions as your mind blank gets ate over and over and over and you're still dealing with constant storms of vengeance. Not to mention class spells.

And unlike Paladin, you can't take 20+ bg and actually get a CL that would help you.

I think dispell immunity is fine regardless of level because a pc with low bg isn't going to have strong widgets anyways, especially since it takes 15 bg to Max out demon flesh which is probably the best pve widget but only because+5 Nat ac is hard to find from effects versus 50% concealment

Blackguard- to gimp or not to gimp? Shouldn't be a question

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