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Hi! I've popped this open because on the RDD thread I saw people talking about ECL and classes. Figured it could do with a topic of its own.

I, personally, am not for getting rid of ECL. I would however love for Drow to be able to get more builds in. Other ECL classes included here!

Thoughts, feelings?

Having partaken in the mistake that was raising earth and air genasi to ECL 0 (I don't think it hurt fire/water), I'm extremely wary of ever touching it again, as an opinion. You can never undo it.

I thought ECL wasn't supposed to cap character level, but slow their progression? You could still reach 30 on a Drow for example, it would simply take 2 levels worth of XP more than it would a human to hit the same level.

Point with that is that, in the end, speed doesn't matter when others reach 30 and no longer move along. The bonuses you get as an ECL race would alter the balance quite a lot. You'd have a ECL races that get a lot more bonuses at level 30 and are more powerful than any standard race at the same level, by default.

But those races are supposed to be more powerful than normal.

Yes, but balance-wise, it makes it impossible for any standard race to actually reach them in power. It works in a standard PnP setting where there's no level cap, but not when there actually is one.

What I might add to this is that the +2 means that, yes, you have some fantastic benefits (SR and all), but you are very restricted in any builds that you might want to try.

I completely agree with Arkun here.

If I look at Tiefling, I see the perfect place for a Dex Assassin. Same with Drow. However, apart from slightly cheesy, and not always lore-correct builds (Monk Drow), you won't be able to do a Dex Assassin Tiefling. The "most comfortable" and actually lorewise the best Assassin is 18+ levels. Losing the last feat bars you from getting Epic dodge unless you get Improved Evasion or Defensive Roll from somewhere else. (Hence the Monk, SD or rogue) This gimps them really hard. Again, if there was anything else that is amazing to take, it wouldn't be a problem, but losing Epic Dodge isn't worth Crippling Strike and +2 Dex and Int.
Drow can simply not ever get a Winterwight. That means that the main reason you might go Pale Master without gimping yourself at 0 AB and 80 AC is out of the question.

Now, yes, Drow are a pretty powerful race. SR, a free cast of Darkness is nice, Dex, Int and Cha at only a drawback of -2 Con, but it leaves them with so little choices for good builds. As far as I understand, doing things with the subrace system is difficult, but maybe, if really neccessary, some of the bonuses Drow receive could be lessened? I don't know, maybe only +1 to the stats, rather than +2? If really neccessary, the same with the orcs and tiefling, since those are the races that are most similar to the Genasi.

To tormak, I'd even say part of the problem I have is that while Genasi are great, I'd rather be forced into the stigma of Drow or Tiefling than play a Genasi. Especially something like Drow, where there is not alternative.

TormakSaber wrote:

Having partaken in the mistake that was raising earth and air genasi to ECL 0 (I don't think it hurt fire/water)

Heh, I don't really think those were a mistake, as you can (and will) get splatted by relatively low-level caster monsters chucking banishments and dismissals (which happens quite often as you level up), plus you're even more vulnerable in pvp. I will however say that fire/water probably need a little more love for parity's sake. No one would take any genasi if it had an ecl, really. Why would you? Most of them have some other racial approximation that's as good or just as good. Air is pretty much human/chultan, water is a dwarf, etc.

Drow and svirf need their ecl though simply because their bonuses are insane compared to anything else. All those stats + SR? Yes please. If you let those get level 30, you've just created two master races. There'd literally be no reason mechanically to make anything else imo. Dex/wis/int/cha and crazy SR with 30 levels.

Richard_Edmund wrote:

I thought ECL wasn't supposed to cap character level, but slow their progression? You could still reach 30 on a Drow for example, it would simply take 2 levels worth of XP more than it would a human to hit the same level.

No, if you hit a level with an ECL character a DM will de-level you.

Richard_Edmund wrote:

But those races are supposed to be more powerful than normal.

No. On a server like this, they all need to be balanced (more or less, it is not really easy to accomplish to have all races 100% the same power level, I agree) else everyone will just play the "power races".

If the ECL were removed (which we can't realistically do atm really) it would mean most of the bonuses have to go aswell. (to the extend of just getting +2 ability -2 ability as the rest and maybe some minor other stuff)

I agree with finding a way to allow them full 30 builds (and benefits of missing levels, AB, saves, feat).

While originally about Drow ECL, this thread covers a range of things related to our discussions on ECL in general.

My suggestion remains as it has been for the last few times we've discussed it. Treat ECL as a racial class, like how NPCs have or somewhat similar to the variant rules for Bloodlines in P&P. Everyone reaches the same relative baseline of Saves and AB they would if they were a level 30 character. ECL races are considered to have "taken" a level(or 2 for +2 ECL) of their race as a class. What that means for a +2 ECL race is +1 AB and +1 Saves. If possible it would be great to give them HP based upon those "levels", but I don't know if that's possible.

That's as fair as it gets, really. Non-ECL races get their extra build flexibility, class feats, and improved class features from being able to take 1 or 2 more levels(I.E. Two more Levels of Rogue always translates to an extra 1d6 on sneak attacks, two more levels of Fighter always means an extra bonus feat, two more of a casting class always translates to an extra +2 Caster Level, regardless of if when and where you take them). ECL races, instead of these class dependent bonuses, get their racial bonuses, but are still lv 30 PCs in all other respects(HD, AB, Saves, etc).

The second part of it is making sure all feat requirements and class features are attainable by mechanical level 28. Again, an ECL race could attain anything any singular feat or ability any other race can(I.E. Hellball), but are still pressured by the fact they can't fit as much into their build(for having Racial abilities already take up some of that space).

Last edited by Mushidoz on Thu, Jan 05 2017, 19:42 PM, edited 4 times in total.

Just cause nobody's mentioned them:

Feytouched in D&D have a +1 ECL. However, they also get complete immunity to mind-affecting effects (which is pretty ridiculous). On Amia, when it comes to OOC bonuses, losing that 1 level is only a +2 charisma and +4 to mind-effecting spells rolls. The only time a +2 to charisma would be helpful is if you go sorcerer or bard (you are fey, after all), but that +2 charisma is limited as you won't be getting caster-level from the level you sacrificed. You get all the negatives of the race, but none of the cookies.

The reason I bring this up is that I think one of the problem is that some of these races are just ridiculously overpowered compared to others. For example, there is nothing aside from RP that feytouched will give you when it comes to powerbuilding (which is fine by me). You could just get a bonus saves increasing feat with that extra feat and get +2 or +4 to saves anyway, meaning you get a semi +1 to will for going feytouched as your whole racial bonus

Now, when you compare that to drow?.. yeaaah..

Feytouched was altered (for good reason), but I think some races were not altered (or not enough), and so you end up with ridiculously powerful races that won't really suffer from 1 or 2 levels missing, and then others that get barely nothing.

Personally? I think something -could- be done (dark immolation's idea isn't bad), but that it would cause more trouble balance-wise than it should. The staff's time is better used elsewhere, we should be taking races for the RP it provides, not for powerbuilding.

P.S. Full immunity to mind effecting spells for going feytouched is absolutely ridiculous and would warrant more than a +1 ECL. However, removing it entirely does not make the +1 ECL justified (from a powerbuilding point of view!).

Edit: Actually forgot you can take feytouched as a human character, in which case it does provide a dex bonus at the cost of constitution. Still, compared to drow...?

i think feytouched is worse then say, earth planetouched.

but it has an ecl.

Mushidoz wrote:

The only time a +2 to charisma would be helpful is if you go sorcerer or bard (you are fey, after all), but that +2 charisma is limited as you won't be getting caster-level from the level you sacrificed. You get all the negatives of the race, but none of the cookies.

The case could always be made that your ECL should count towards your class level if you've taken a Favored Class, I suppose. But that counteracts what I was talking about with non-ECL races getting their extra class levels instead of racial abilities.

27-28 levels of anything should be considered the pinnacle of any archetype. 29-30 is just the added flair that comes from busting your ass in an echelon where most others had racial abilities or centuries of training to help them, where you have made it by phenomenal talent even compared to the best of your peers. IMO A lv 30 human wizards gets his extra 2 CL and Wizard Bonus Feat because it takes that crazy, nigh inhuman level of dedication to compare to lv 28 Drow Wizard who has race, ability, time, and upbringing on his side. All the same, as 28 levels is the "pinnacle" there is nothing the human can attain quality-wise that the Drow cannot. The Drow simply attains less quantity-wise, for not having the need to.

And as far as "time better spent elsewhere," that's never really a reason not to discuss a thing. We've seen in the past how dismissing concerns on that basis leads to problems. You can always discuss an idea and simply implement it when and if you get the time to. In any case, as often as the ECL discussion comes up, and for as long as it has come up, it would be very good to at least come to a substantive conclusion one way or another.

Dark Immolation wrote:

Mushidoz wrote:

The only time a +2 to charisma would be helpful is if you go sorcerer or bard (you are fey, after all), but that +2 charisma is limited as you won't be getting caster-level from the level you sacrificed. You get all the negatives of the race, but none of the cookies.

The case could always be made that your ECL should count towards your class level if you've taken a Favored Class, I suppose. But that counteracts what I was talking about with non-ECL races getting their extra class levels instead of racial abilities.

27-28 levels of anything should be considered the pinnacle of any archetype. 29-30 is just the added flair that comes from busting your ass in an echelon where most others had racial abilities or centuries of training to help them, where you have made it by phenomenal talent even compared to the best of your peers. IMO A lv 30 human wizards gets his extra 2 CL and Wizard Bonus Feat because it takes that crazy, nigh inhuman level of dedication to compare to lv 28 Drow Wizard who has race, ability, time, and upbringing on his side. All the same, as 28 levels is "pinnacle" and there is nothing the human can attain quality-wise that the Drow cannot. The Drow simply attains less quantity-wise, for not having the need to.

And as far as "time better spent elsewhere," that's never really a reason not to discuss a thing. We've seen in the past how dismissing concerns on that basis leads to problems. You can always discuss an idea and simply implement it when and if you get the time to. In any case, as often as the ECL discussion comes up, and for as long as it has come up, it would be very good to at least come to a substantive conclusion one way or another.

i would agree with you if level 30 wasn't required for some feats. it's hard to get hellball, i don't think you actually can get dragon shape as an ecl race, and epic dodge is a huge pain in the ass with ecl.

Dark Immolation wrote:

The second part of it is making sure all feat requirements and class features are attainable by mechanical level 28. Again, an ECL race could attain anything any singular feat or ability any other race can(I.E. Hellball), but are still pressured by the fact they can't fit as much into their build(for having Racial abilities already take up some of that space).

Dark Immolation wrote:

The second part of it is making sure all feat requirements and class features are attainable by mechanical level 28. Again, an ECL race could attain anything any singular feat or ability any other race can(I.E. Hellball), but are still pressured by the fact they can't fit as much into their build(for having Racial abilities already take up some of that space).

oh that was from an earlier post. i read your last post like 4 times trying to see how i missed that.

Aasimar and svirfs could get it dragonshape, but that uses about all of your epic feats.

I had a drow who had Dragonshape, a long time ago. Requires a dip into DC in Epic, is all.

Commie wrote:

i think feytouched is worse then say, earth planetouched.

but it has an ecl.

And this is why removing it was a mistake.

I am not a fan of doing away with ECL and I say this as someone that's played a drow here and elsewhere.

There are plenty of effective builds you can play while dealing with the ECL caps. That you can't fit Powerbuilds X, Y, and Z into the race is a feature, not a bug. You'll live if you can't get SuperAwesomeFeat crammed in there. This will require you to play smarter and work within your limitations and *gasp* work as a group. This will also keep every Tom, Dick, and Melvin from building these races and mean that anyone that wants to progress it will be more invested in their character.

ucfgoose wrote:

I am not a fan of doing away with ECL and I say this as someone that's played a drow here and elsewhere.

There are plenty of effective builds you can play while dealing with the ECL caps. That you can't fit Powerbuilds X, Y, and Z into the race is a feature, not a bug. You'll live if you can't get SuperAwesomeFeat crammed in there. This will require you to play smarter and work within your limitations and *gasp* work as a group. This will also keep every Tom, Dick, and Melvin from building these races and mean that anyone that wants to progress it will be more invested in their character.

Except that some races allow powerbuilds specifically because of their racials.

Drow monk aa is a good example. Unstoppable.

Yeah, drow monk AA is pretty good. It's also a complete soup sandwich lorewise. I'm sure one could figure out a way to twist lore worse than a purple nurple from Ripley's powerloader in Aliens but, well...

http://i68.tinypic.com/315zpz5.jpg

Eh. With only ten levels of monk its not too hard to explain away as dedication to arcane archery. Remember Selvetarm stole the aa secrets iirc, and is a master of arms, makes sense to dedicate yourself to perfecting the stolen art.

Imo anyway. It's not unreasonable.

Drow trend to chaotic and using longbows in cloistered underground areas is not typical.

Ten levels of a class should not be "waved off".

Drow use crossbows.

Selevtarm stealing AA for the Drow was a conceit to the fact that we're playing a videogame.

The build's good because it's a monk/AA, not because of Drow.

Not every race gets everything. Not every class gets everything. If class X can't get Y feat either cope without it or play one that can. Instead of trying to bring the racial benefits and drawbacks closer together so that they lose their uniqueness and can do everything you should embrace some diversity.

This means that some races are going to be worse than others, not just at certain tasks but perhaps overall. GOOD! This gives you an added challenge if that's your bag. You don't see a guy that goes 6'5" and 305 pounds playing forward in soccer and you don't have a guy that's 5'8" and 165 pounds playing offensive tackle in gridiron football. Don't judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree.

Also, I agree with Tormak. (Hope your apocalypse insurance is up to date.)

TormakSaber wrote:

Drow trend to chaotic and using longbows in cloistered underground areas is not typical.

Ten levels of a class should not be "waved off".

Drow use crossbows.

Selevtarm stealing AA for the Drow was a conceit to the fact that we're playing a videogame.

The build's good because it's a monk/AA, not because of Drow.

Does aa work with shortbows or crossbows?

Shortbows yes, not crossbows.

I find it humorous that any time this subject is brought up, immediately drow are brought up... :mrgreen:

They're kind of the poster child for +2 ECL in a way no other race is: +4 stats over the +0 equivalent, no extra penalties, full progression SR, access to unique racials and racial spelllikes, and to boot, they're very popularly played. It's not really a surprise that they get brought up more than say, Svirneblin, or Strongheart Halflings.

TormakSaber wrote:

Strongheart Halflings.

A good few people know my views on Stronghearts on how to improve them that isn't removing their ECL or removing their penalties.

Drop their Disc bonus from +5 to +2, then give them SF: Disc (+3), so the only difference is they have that feat. Alongside this, give them toughness too (Keep in mind they get a -2 CON penalty on subrace activation).

This allows Stronghearts to only need the skill investment for KC, while ultimately all they gain from their previous incarnation is the 2 feats they'd use otherwise to invest in the PRC (which, considering they miss level 29 and 30's feats, makes up for this fact somewhat.

I'm not sure if I'm standing on m, example too much, but there isn't that much difference between an evil rogue and an Assassin. But going high Assassin is not really possible on a tiefling. Unless you take SD, which makes your RP... well, a bit weird. You could go 10 Rogue/18Ass/1Disc, but I think most people will agree that that is not the best build. Maybe 9Monk, but even that isn't amazing. Your AB is not good enough to be worth being dismissed or WoF'd.

Tiefling is basically Air Genasi with a few more benefits, a Spell less, and an ECL. My own biased self would say Air Gen and Tiefer are on a similar power level, so they should have the same ECL. Whether that is +1 on both, or 0 on both, I'm not sure.

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