First and foremost, this is a constructive thread with the intention of improving our environment. Examples given are nt personal attacks and I admit that I can be wrong, because I lack omnipresence. This is a follow up to a thread I posted ages ago, and it went flametastic. If we have differing views, point and counterpoint can be made and I won't hold a grudge or allow this to affect me IC or OOC.

1: Leadership or the Stewardship of a faction, preexisting or created needs to be consistent. There needs to be presence. That's the bottom line. "Move your meat, lose your seat" is how we say it in the Army.

2: Consideration of others: This is a broken record and It gets played a lot. If you grow bored with a character and decide to move on, that is your choice. Don't expect people to have to live under your notional thumb. I made Jael with the intention of reopening the shrine and was working to gain interest in it, when Rith and everyone showed up for a week and then poofed. No biggie. It is mildly annoying knowing that my efforts would not have made a difference as there were people already notionally living there. I research other available factions. I check out the Order in Khem. Nope. It's not even the order it's the "Grey Watch" and once again, run by phantoms. Let's see what's in Wharftown..oop nevermind. Same thing. Although I believe Rania was doing quite a bit of RP out there. West Cordor! Run by Shade and Dirk who are gone?
If you quit, or find yourself stretched too thin, be a pal and give it up so others can try.

3: Migratory RP groups. There are one or two "groups" who all like to play and RP with one another. This is great, to an extent. The RP habits are such that you tend to agree with one another exclusively and create a predetermined microforce that dominates one area, gets bored and moves on. It's not so much an issue, except for when you leave and others can't have a chance because of "pre-existing" RP.

4: Leadership of more than one faction should be a no-go. It just creates a subconcious RP blockade and should never, ever be allowed. If you are leading one, you are ignoring another. Being a leader, unfortunatly is time consuming and requires time investment. If you know you don't have the time to invest, please stand down an allow someone who can. We have a small player base. Six people should not account for half the map.

5: Additional media: Skype should not be used to notify your friends that you need backup with either conversation or conflicts. This is a hard one to enforce, but it's metagamey as hell. Do not use the forums to make declarations, assert dominance or write people out. You will be met with resistance and your writing skills will have been wasted.

Past RP: Appreciated, but in months of absence does not entitle you to anything. ICly feel free to make this argument, but OOC it should not hold any weight outside how the players in game decide to receive your achievments.

The thread is open, feel free to discuss.

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Jace Fenneril: Cleric of Sharess.

Michael Harcourte: Painter, Scribe.

Sebastian Mayartte: Gambler, MercenaryDeceased

Issue I encountered IG in Tarkuul. It provided a lot of OOC barriers I hated, but ICly you get "life on the Council". So.. PCs vanished- usually.

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The problem I find the hardest to deal with is when I take up the mantel to try and lead something and try to coordinate with the dms it just seems the dms aren't interested.

You can't force a dm to give a damn about w/e your group is doing. That's just how the cookie crumbles. However it does get grating when you work for several months to maintain and up keep something and have -active- players and yet you still get no real feed back or support- ESPECIALLY when you see feed back and support for folks who haven't been working at their concept or idea as long as you.

It just feels extremely unfair and like you're rp means nothing because you can't get a dm to say it means something.

It's just un fair and well... putting it bluntly it sucks.

It sucks because I get all these characters and players that are interested in something and have a bit of drive but we don't have any where to go because of lack of recognition.


It's hard to establish your self in areas or factions that already have a tight nit group associated with them- ESPECIALLY if you get the predisposition that they didn't like you or your concept pc you're temping with.

When it comes to leader ship I agree a leader needs to be active and in the know and be able to provide things for the faction to do. Granted- PC's who are established and go way for a while shouldn't be out right ignored. Their past accomplishments shouldn't be disregarded because the player took a break. Then again if a faction has jurisdiction over what goes on ins such and such area they still shouldn't be the end all be all of what should happen there as NPC's -DO- Exist.

The fact that factions allow you to deny pc's for any IC -OR- OOC reasons also kinda adds to the reason why it's very hard to join a group or idea if they d not approve of you. Even then they can make you jump through hoops to get something then turn you away.

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Declarations IC are fine but I mean that's because they're IC and you can't expect people to listen to you IC. So who cares there, it's just IC.



This exists almost purely for the sanity of players involved, to prevent petty fighting and allow players to police themselves and have an avenue to save factions from inter-player drama that can kill them. I think it's a rule that needs to exist for the sake of the community.

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Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham

If I know I OOC don't want someone in the faction I will tell just tell them I'm thinking of using the OOC decline faction thing.

It can be for a number of reasons, to many alts, conflicting alts so increased risk of metagame, past breaking of rules, not meshing with players/play style....ect but I will just outright tell them that OOC I might or will put it to a OOC vote for them to be declined I wont waste their time or drag it on.

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================-<Cory ShadowFlame>-================
Risenlord-Shifter(OMG a Non-Dragon Shifter that can hold his own in PvE)

I will just tell people outright before step 1 of recruitment if there's an ooc issue. Save everyone some time.

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ANT ALARM

ANT ALARM

People tend to have alts. Many of these alts have counterproductive agendas than the factions in which they are or seek to be alligned. Metaknowledge is always a concern, and I think people should be given the benefit of the doubt until proven otherwise. In ths respect, I am a steel trap. I make a concious effort to keep secrets, whether IC or OOC, so as not to ruin the ambitions of other characters I make.

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Jace Fenneril: Cleric of Sharess.

Michael Harcourte: Painter, Scribe.

Sebastian Mayartte: Gambler, MercenaryDeceased

Basically, I've always seen the problem when a faction leader leaves. The little I got to hear of factions, it always seemed to me like they are OOC friends, and then for some reason the faction leader stops doing things. I know this happened in the West. Dirk got imprisoned and Broldi lost interest because of that.

Quite honestly, I was really surprised when I heard that the coalition came from something we had planned, and survived pretty much the whole starting group going missing.

Sadly, there's not much you can do, especially if you yourself do not want/can not lead the faction.

This ties into the "grouping" effect I was mentioning. Someone comes up with a new, fresh Idea and weeks, if not months of RP suddenly stops and migrates elsewhere. Which is great for them and it keeps the server interesting, but is a pain for others who either wished to continue that course, or lead in absence, only to be told that position is already filled by someone who logs on..maybe once every three months to play the part.

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Jace Fenneril: Cleric of Sharess.

Michael Harcourte: Painter, Scribe.

Sebastian Mayartte: Gambler, MercenaryDeceased

And then there are a few problems...
Tossing the old faction out: See Nec'perya
Not playing because nobody else is: Faction dies

There are excetions there, HoJo managed to get the PC leaders tossed out of Tarkuul without massive tilt, but I'd say that is because of those players, only Silkelocke came close to being active. At the same time, inactive players usually want to returnt to their characters after they come back. I wouldn't want to hear that Mez got perma'd in the few months I didn't play him. It's a bit different, because he's not a leader, but still similar.

I don't think permakilling anyone was mentioned. If anythung, if you have been gone for four months or so and your argument is that you are there in a notional sense, then you are detracting from the experience of people who are actually there. I'm not saying that you can't take a break...or whatever, (taking a break implies you are playing too hard, not having fun, or taking things too seriously. Real life does happen) but saying you are quiting the server, or some other such OOC ordeal you may encounter means you are out. If you need a break, post it, Have your number 2 take the helm and run things for a while. Within reason! It's about consideration, really.

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Jace Fenneril: Cleric of Sharess.

Michael Harcourte: Painter, Scribe.

Sebastian Mayartte: Gambler, MercenaryDeceased

I meant it as an example of losing progress a character made. It ties a bit into the losing that was talked about in the bans thread. I don't really want to lose progress just because work got busy or something.

Your suggestion is good though. If you write that you will be gone, then you are more likely that your progress will be 'saved'. Of course, things can happen that weaken your position while you are gone, but it works for a big part.

Indeed. For the sake of RP, some factions would play more nicely with this than others. The head of a thieves guild may find upon return that the other happens to like that seat and isn't willing to vacate it. What did you expect. Guy/gal was a scoundrel.

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Jace Fenneril: Cleric of Sharess.

Michael Harcourte: Painter, Scribe.

Sebastian Mayartte: Gambler, MercenaryDeceased

yeah. basically everyone left before I joined.

but that's how you know you have a good cause and a good thing going; it's still there despite all the original leadership taking off.

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ANT ALARM

ANT ALARM

This is actually already and has long been, a rule. Players are only allowed to ever lead one faction at a time.

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I'm glad you decided to post something like this again Thunderbrush.

Expanding more on the 'consideration of others' part. I've had newer PCs come up and asked my character ICly where they could meet/get involved with so and so. I direct them to a city/group before getting IC feedback: "I tried many times but no one is there, maybe I'll look for them another time" (which somehow I know will be futile), or even straight up OOC feedback in tells: "No one is ever around there". All I could do is apologise. Secretly I know that these fractions and players are hiding behind skype and logging on only for events which are once in a blue moon. Otherwise, they're playing alts or only going on that character when another in their fraction is. It's inconsiderate towards newer PCs. I don't think "PM me if you want to RP with me, then I'll log" should ever have to be relied on.

Recently I've heard these excuses, along with the lines of:
- "The fraction is inactive". (Therefore I'm not going to log onto my leader)
- "You don't want to become a leader here because it's too much stress" (Therefore let me hold onto the position and do absolutely nothing)

This saddens me.


I agree so much with this.

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Rosary Doodlekins - Hin Candy Witch

I mean, it's funny because I like one quote of yours Elyon:

This is what I feel myself. After that one faction that turned into the coalition, I don't really want to be a leader, unless perhaps it is mostly EU time zones. Of course, this means I have dire problems finding a faction...

Otherwise, I agree with this so much. I can almost understand the "the faction is inactive" argument. The difficulty there is that without RP, you won't get people, and without people, you won't get RP. That is part of the reason I usually try to get into some form of OOC talk with the faction leader before doing anything: You know that the leader is at least active enough to talk to you, you show that at least one other is interested, and you give the leader a reason to log on.

To take you as an example: Do you think if Bendir was just as empty of PCs as Zanshinibon, do you think you would log on as mayor? You usually need at least two people to do anything RP-wise. (I mean, I've had some fun just typing to myself, but no one ever saw that, because I was alone. Except for a few times when a DM saw that)
This is one of the reason I liked some place (like RP recruitment, still sad Davis isn't here anymore) to advertise interest for a faction. It shows who the leader is, so who needs to be 'bothered' to get RP, and gives you a list of RP sources.

Ironically, this again ties in to the group of OOC friends. If you are two OOC friends, lets say Broldi and ArcaneCrusader, and you two RP together, people notice you doing things and want to join on board. If you don't actually already have a group, you can't do as much alone.

Still, leaders should be ready to relinquish their titles, especially if they go absent for a while. And nobody except me can tell me what is too stressful for me.

Heya Robbie. I still would log on if it was just me, and this is just a personal thing that wouldn't apply to everyone. I don't do well with making alts so logging onto different characters is out of the question. I prefer to have one character that keeps connections with a broad range of PCs. That way I can never run out of things to do, I usually have someone to RP with even if they're not Bendirians. I've logged on before when Bendir was a ghost town and before the Mayorship, so there's nothing stopping me from doing that today.

I understand the difficulties as a fraction leader especially when it gets quiet, although I still think it's the fraction leaders job to get the ball rolling, making sure not to rely on anyone else for your RP- not even the DMs unless it's a final option. At times it may seem you're on your own, sometimes I've been lucky enough others joined in and recruited players. Despite the possibility of a lack of numbers, I would take the initiative to spark some RP because it comes with being a leader, as I know no one else is going to do it for me. I can't promise anything to anyone having difficulties for whatever reason, but it's also a matter of patience and persistence. Eventually, it'll become just one person to many, if you stay active and if you've got the drive.

I'm afraid that my stance is: if you (to anyone in general) can't handle the difficulties whether it's the 'ghost town/ inactive fraction problem' or 'the need to rely on others' and other obstacles in your way, maybe you need to take a step back from leading. Not to discredit the way people handle things but some are more mentally prepared than others. That's why we need to give others the chance.

As for the 'migration and hive-mind friends' occurrence, there are some players who don't make buddy buddy with people on skype and/or willing to rp outside their friend's zone. I'm sure you can pull those people in, though all a matter of luck.

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Rosary Doodlekins - Hin Candy Witch

While I don't play a faction leader or anything close to that, I try to keep a general rule that I keep as much in game or in PMs as possible - I don't even have a Skype.

I do feel that the pressures of being a faction leader in an inactive place is less of a 'I can't handle this' and more of a constant feeling of pressure and irritation - this I think I can relate to as I was in the UD before I made a surface character, and being alone for long periods of time just ends up making the game 'not fun', and a bit of a chore. There's only so many times you can go click on things to kill them before you think 'Wait, this is meant to be an RP server!'..

But, that's a bit of a digression. I feel that IC leadership should be IG leadership, it's not just one thing to be the leader of a faction, you have to be the in-game representative of that faction, the person that people can see on the player list and go 'Yep, there's <x>, if we want to interact with <y>, we can at least rely on them being about for it!' - with y being the faction/city of your choice.

IC leadership isn't easy. It has a high chance of burnout for many people, and they should be thanked for doing their best before burning out - but people shouldn't hang on tooth and nail to positions that they no longer have a desire to just be seen IG for, rather than logging in for plots or because someone might unseat them.

I didn't know Hojo or his player very well at all, but seeing him in and trying to be active made me bring my Wizard to join Tarkuul, for example.

Elyon: I totally agree. My point was that there is a two way thing: OOC friends will become IC friends, and IC friends will become OOC friends. While this is not a general statement that applies to everything, I've noticed that strongly with the recent Blackskulls. MrMile, DnDPlayer, Byrdkiller, oshizo, I knwo all of those things from one place: EU leveling. Not Dicey, even though I leveled a bit with him, but those people knew him. My point is that this group is in a certain way the best way to get a faction going. This sometimes means that certain people are purposefully or accidentally excluded. And, in a certain way, I'd like it to be different. I like to use my Skype for RL friends I play other games with. There are a few Amia people on there, but not that many. Even that was, for a big part, born of neccessity, and for OOC planning, since it is in my opinion more comfortable than the forums.
This ends up with interest fading when the friends leave. I would not play League of Legends alone. It's a horrendously terrible game, but it is a game a few of my friends play, so I play with them. The same can happen with factions. It's not a fun thing, but it happens. It can be worse if the friend even would like to play, but can't because IC forbids it. (ie. he is i jail) I'd much rather simply make an alt to play with that friend than play my own empty faction.

Of course, this is one of the reasons I wouldn't say I'd be a good faction leader.

To Arkun: Yes, this is what I meant. Now, a faction leader has so much more power at his fingertips, but without either a DM or players, you will not get this power. I can imagine why it burns people out.

And it's funny, because I feel very similar with Tarkuul. LibrisMortis is really doing a great job making the best out of a dead city. (And everyone who knows Tarkuuls names might smile at this)

Leadership is a tricky thing because I view Faction leadership and Town/city leadership as two different but still very similar beasts. I don't think being alone is the biggest killer, over the years I have done a lot of stuff by myself with a ton of DMs without other players help or in some cases very limited.

Over the years it started to become more and more of DMs saying "You need more PCs for us to help you" but players want to be where its active and too have DM attention..... so its a never ending loop of No players=no DM= no players. They have decreased the value of hard work and RP for pure numbers.

Caraigh Western Mill I think was a great example of how stuff should/could be done. IC as leader of the island I wanted to give us more farm land to grow food and to clear a path down the cliff and to make a port so we could get goods to and from the town without having to move across like 7 hostile zones. So the DMs/Devs put a few Oak trees and Granite nodes on the map and a donation chest and said the map progress will change based off the amount inside the chest.
So the more people I had to help with the jobs the quicker it would go.. but I could do the goal myself if no one else wanted to and for the record I just checked the chest I put in
Granite=1574
Oak logs=1892

That's not the total mind you as I had help from some others but that shows how much work and effort I put into getting the project done and the old mindset of effort/RP is worth more then getting a large group of people to all stand in front of a forest emote *cuts down trees* screenshot it and sending it to a DM/post it on the forums.

My current project that has been going on since before Tue 08 Mar, 2016 as that's when I posted the public layout/plans for part of the Inn renovations, but I had been talking and planning it since before that and collecting resources and getting people with job system jobs to make chairs...ect from players like Tala's, or using my stonemason ranks to make clay dishes...ect it is a large IC change but I posted why he's doing it all to his towns people NPCs and a lot of the focus is to improve the lives of the people there.

Also get a bunch of job system added like bakers oven, cookers pot, brewer in the basement as lore wise the island would have a all of this stuff anyway as the Inn cooks food it clearly must have a oven and a cookers pot right. same thing with a blacksmith...ect and it would also just help on the server over all to have trainers/tables in more places instead of running all around the world looking for something in logical places and it never being there.

I think what has killed places more is when you try and make changes and you are ignored all because you lack pure numbers because 5 alts who put in 10 minutes of work each is worth more then a single person who puts in 3 hours, so then you stop logging on or you make a alt to join the flavor of the month group so you can feel like your doing something and have DM attention.

When you have to fight with the DMs on simple things that they say "I want to see the RP" yet logically no RP would be needed on your part as it should already be there, for years I have asked for maybe a Mill trainer in the town called "The Mill" that you know... has a Mill where they Mill stuff and has been around lore wise for lets low ball it and say 30 years. As its very hard to IC explain to people when they come looking for a mill trainer and I have to tell them we don't have one... it would be like the holycity not having a temple.
DM Lore wise we produce a lot of lumber as Wiltun has been buying it from us, yet we have no lumberjack, sawyer, or carpenter trainer also no saw horse or carpenter's workbench, heck we don't even have any trees in the western mill anymore, yet fey lake has 2oak trees, 2pine trees and saw horse with a carpenter's workbench.



Over all being a leader or even a player of a low interest area does not have to mean the death sentence if you have DM support to make it feel like you can set and goal and reach it.... but when you don't have support it does mean the area will die and amia history has proved this time and time again.

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================-<Cory ShadowFlame>-================
Risenlord-Shifter(OMG a Non-Dragon Shifter that can hold his own in PvE)