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alamut
 
PostPosted: Sun, Jan 22 2017, 17:38 PM 

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Hello there.

I'm using the tittle of the same following thread we already have in the forum: Classes and Feats - Contents. I wonder if wizards will ever get some sort of flavor as well, not in order to increase the power per se, but an alternative way to make people willing to not multiclass wizards as we have.


 
      
lilmarcat
 
PostPosted: Sun, Jan 22 2017, 17:47 PM 



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There is a small benefit to being a Pure wizard/sorc/Druid.

Quote:
Overview:
Familiars and Animal Companions have been modified in two ways:

Firstly, all familiars and companions have been redesigned to improve their utility and roles. There have also been two new familiars added: the phase spider and skeleton. The phase spider is a stealth and poison specialist, while the skeleton is an undead servant focused at absorbing damage.

Secondly, they receive a benefit according to their owner's caster level:

• Armor Class +1 / 2 CL
• Claw Enhancement +1 / 5 CL
• Regeneration +1 / 5 CL
• Attack Bonus +2 / 5 CL
• Universal Saving Throw Bonus +1 / 5 CL

• Resistance to bludgeoning, piercing and slashing damage:

• CL 1 – 10 : 5/-
• CL 11 – 20 : 10/-
• CL 21 – 30 : 15/-


+6 Claws, 1 extra regen, 2 extra AB and 1 save to your familiar. Not the greatest, but at least its something? :D


 
      
LibrisMortis_666
 
PostPosted: Sun, Jan 22 2017, 17:49 PM 

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Plus the most common multi classing for a wizard is ranger at level 30 for 2 bonus feats.

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robbi320
 
PostPosted: Sun, Jan 22 2017, 17:58 PM 



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Pure Wizards are a thing. Hell, if I was interested in making another Wizard, I'd make him pureclass. Or -maybe- a tiny bit of Rogue or Ranger in there. But the lowest Wizard I can think of is Wiz 24, (unless PM) which is pretty high already. Hell, what other class do you go higher? Maybe some other casters, but then I'd rather change them, since that is mostly due to lack of alternatives. Anything less is subject to dispel, and dispel is really annoying if it can hit you. Mords already is annoying. But another chance to be dispelled? I wouldn't want that.

But, as a general guideline, there isn't much of a reason to go anything below certain thresholds in certain classes. Bard 20, Most casters 24, Rogue 13, Ranger 21. At least most people will not want to go below that. Yes, dipping for skill dumps/feats is a thing, as a base class for a PrC, etc... Even many PrCs have that. Assassin 18, PM9, DD used to be either 4 or nine or ten, MS5, SD6... There are actually quite a few classes where you do not have that border. AA scales regularly, so there isn't much of a problem not going all that high into it, Shifter (even then usually at least 10).

As for flavor, I personally think Wizards have so much flavor to them already (more metamagic than other casters, or more spell foci, which means more awesomeness) especially in PnP spells. If you get that permission (which you do often enough), you have most spells, since you can just say "oh, I got that as a scroll". This isn't as easy on a sorc, since you technically only have so many spells known. If you want to give your Wizzy more flavor, you could also try a Shadow Weave user. Or be a more caster oriented AA. Or SD multiclass, or Battlecaster, or Pm, or just a hyper focused or hyper generalist wizard, or most epic spell foci, or... Hell, I once saw someone who tried to incorporate some Assassin into his Wizard.


 
      
Naivatkal
 
PostPosted: Sun, Jan 22 2017, 19:26 PM 

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Wizards are one of the most powerful classes in the game. If anything, Sorcerers need a boost in comparison.

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Akhlys
 
PostPosted: Sun, Jan 22 2017, 19:40 PM 

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no casters need boosts

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alamut
 
PostPosted: Sun, Jan 22 2017, 20:31 PM 

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Keep in mind I don't want more power to wizards. Specially because of the abuse builds muticlassing an already powerful class (sadly the nerfe diminished their power to scroll/potions level). I'm looking for flavor (and not more power) for pure wizards like the possibility to stack scrolls in order to build up a book to cast spells. That's actually my next DC request, but I think that would be fair to any pure class as a flavor to their dedication to it.


 
      
TormakSaber
 
PostPosted: Sun, Jan 22 2017, 20:37 PM 

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You don't need two topics for the same thing.

Saying wizards have been reduced to "potion level" is absolutely ridiculous, and isn't an argument that can be made on any level whatsoever.

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alamut
 
PostPosted: Sun, Jan 22 2017, 21:12 PM 

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The other topic was related to the spell changes. This topic is related to improvements. What is said in between is free to be said as long as nobody gets offensive to each other.

As for the level of potion/scroll, I'll just test it right away and see if there is much of a difference between the two after this nerfe.


 
      
Krin
 
PostPosted: Mon, Jan 23 2017, 22:32 PM 



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Naivatkal wrote:
Wizards are one of the most powerful classes in the game. If anything, Sorcerers need a boost in comparison.



Yes pls. Dark Immolation had some really good ideas for how to give the sorcerer class more substance without breaking things.


 
      
Kamina
 
PostPosted: Mon, Jan 23 2017, 22:41 PM 

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Krin wrote:
Naivatkal wrote:
Wizards are one of the most powerful classes in the game. If anything, Sorcerers need a boost in comparison.



Yes pls. Dark Immolation had some really good ideas for how to give the sorcerer class more substance without breaking things.

Mind linking them? <3

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Krin
 
PostPosted: Mon, Jan 23 2017, 23:52 PM 



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Dark Immolation wrote:
Krin wrote:
  Bloodlines

The source of a sorcerer's abilities should be a pretty major part of the class. I think we should introduce bloodlines to Amia that would grant bonus abilities and weaknesses depending upon the bloodline of a sorcerer. If your sorcerer is a sorcerer because they have the blood of a dragon/fey/outsider/whatever in them, they should get abilities that reflect that heritage.



   Flexibility

I think sorcerers should have much more control over their magic than any ordinary wizard does. A sorcerer's magic is an extension of his/her will. It shouldn't be static or restrictive. If a sorcerer can produce a fireball, he should also be able to generate a simple flame from his hand to light a campfire.



  Bonus Feats

Sorcerers are supposed to be innately magical beings. It really doesn't make sense that they get so very little skill points to devote to 'caster' skills like Spellcraft. I think the class should get bonus Skill Focus feats in the caster skills to make up for that.



These three are essentially tied to the same thing, in my thinking. Sorcerer bonus feats would allow you to flesh out these to your own choosing. Instead of taking an overarching Bloodline, you would instead piece together your own from a set of open-to-all feats. I.E., if you want a Red Dragon sorcerer, you would take the bonus feats of Fire Resistance, Claws, and so on. Additionally, some feats would allow you to alter the shapes and such of spells on the fly, I.E. making your Cone spells a sell-targeted Burst of Cold/Fire/Acid by clicking on yourself instead of the target. Here's a few I wrote up. Note, these are the raw ideas. I suggest looking at the spirit of them, rather than pointing to specific numbers right now.

  Sorcerer Bonus Feats

One gained at 7, 14, 21 and 28. Energy Resistance, Arcane Defense, and Battle-Tested can be taken multiple times, as long as it is a different Energy/School/Weapon.

1. Spell Sweep:
A sorcerer finds that by using their natural magic in different ways, they can alter its application and shape. When casting a cone spell, they can choose to move their hands around, thus hosing down an area around them, rather than directly ahead. By casting any Cone Spell on himself as a target, the sorcerer changes the AoE of the spell into a 10 foot circle around his body. Affected Spells: Cone of Cold, Mestil’s Acid Breath, Prismatic Spray, Color Spray, and Burning Hands.

2. Ricochet
The sorcerer becomes adept at adapting certain ballistic spells to be more useful. Ray spells now function as Line attacks, affecting enemies similar to the way Lightning Bolt targets enemies. Projectile burst spells can "skip" off the ground once; if there is an enemy just outside the radius of the spell's "first" AoE, it will be cast again, once, at the nearest enemy that was not in the original AoE. Affected Spells- Ray: Ray of Cold, Negative Energy Ray, Ray of Enfeeblement, Ice Dagger. Affected Spells - Bounce: Fireball, Scintillating Sphere, Delayed Fireball.

3. Channel Spell
The sorcerer's magic flows forth like a river, bound only by their continuous will. When casting a spell in Defensive Casting mode, all hostile spells immediately repeat the next round, taking another appropriate spell slot, unless the caster moves or queues a different action. A Channeled Spell can only be Counterspelled at its initial casting; a channel already in progress cannot be countered. However, Channeling does require a concentration check. It can be broken by moving or receiving damage and failing the damage vs Concentration save.

4. Weapon Channel:
When connecting with a touch attack spell, the target also takes one generated “hit” from the Sorcerer’s main hand weapon. Affected Spells: Vampiric Touch, Combust, Ghoul Touch.

5. Resist Energy:
The sorcerer gains resistance to the element most aligned to his ancestors or paradigm. As per the normal feat, though the Sorcerer automatically meets the prerequisites when taking it as a bonus feat.

6. Allure:
Befitting of her ancestors, the sorceress is naturally gifted in wiles and charm. She gains a bonus to Persuade and Bluff equal to half her CL.

7. Imperious:
Like those that came before him, the sorcerer is naturally domineering and imposing. He gains a bonus to Intimidate and Taunt equal to half his CL.

8. Claws:
A manifestation of their draconic/feral/outsider heritage, the sorcerer gains sharpened nails and fingertips. His unarmed attacks deal extra damage. This works as per the feat Weapon Specialization: Unarmed Strike (+2 to unarmed damage) and Improved Unarmed Strike.

9. Animal Magnetism:
While many sorcerer’s power stems from worlds away, this one is born of the earth and her creatures. She gains Animal Empathy as a cross-class skill and Trackless Step as the default feat.

10. Battle-Tested:
Given that their magic comes so naturally, the Sorcerer has even more time to focus on the grittier aspects of combat. PC gains Weapon Focus in one Simple Weapon or Unarmed.

11. Arcane Defense:
The sorcerer becomes more hardened against spells related or opposing their paradigm. As per the Arcane Defense feat.

12. Changeling:
Any spells of the Polymorph subschool are automatically treated as Extended. Does not stack with Extend Spell. In addition, this qualifies the PC to take Shifter as a prestige class, if the Sorcerer knows Polymorph Self or Shapechange.



There was also one called Sheer Will, that would have allowed Sorcerers to use their CHA score to determine their Will save instead of WIS, the thought being that a class that manipulates reality by willpower should be able to use that force-of-self to muscle through brainwashing and enchantment. I couldn't decide if that should be something innate to the class or a Bonus Feat, but it was quickly shot down either way. And idea I came up with later that would change the base class was having a "mana pool" but I never looked into if it could be done without mechanically replacing the class with a HAK change.

  Mana Pool

Instead of Spells per Day, Sorcerers receive a pool of "points" based off of their class level and CHA modifier. When a spell is cast, its Spell Level is subtracted from the total. Cantrips, being 0-Level Spells, consume no points.



I liked this idea if only to get around explaining how the hell a Sorcerer can "run out" of Magic Missile castings, but the have no problem casting 14 IGMS's right after that. That to me reflects too much how Sorcerers are simply treated as "dumb wizards." A sorcerer need not even have a concept of spell levels, considering their powers are supposedly just pastiches of their ancestor's natural abilities. That is to say, the Green Dragon Sorcerer isn't consciously casting Mestil's Acid Breath, he's using innate magical power to mimic a Green Dragon's breath weapon, and so on. Beyond that, he can do it as much as he feels like until he's tired himself all out, completely.

A mana pool, just as much as any bloodline feat, would make the class feel more natural to me. I've always loved the idea of Sorcerers as superheroes/supermutants. Imagine if Cyclops could only specifically do 4 Small Eyeblasts, 5 large Eyeblasts, and 2 Mega Eyeblasts per day. It would be weird and stilted when "realistically" Cyclops should be able to chose to shoot 15 Small Eyeblasts, or 10 Large ones, or 5 Mega blasts, or any combination thereof on the fly, up until his lame, Professor X-killing ass gets tired.



That's the post. Here's the thread we were tossing ideas around in: viewtopic.php?f=2&p=1339433#p1339433


 
      
Dark Immolation
 
PostPosted: Sat, Apr 08 2017, 19:57 PM 

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Remembering this thread, I wanted to say I've actually gone back through and streamlined my ideas for Sorcerer flavor. While the build-a-bloodline idea is neat, that many custom feats for people to choose from is ultimately a large roadblock for something like that ever getting properly scripted and tested(and therefore realistically added to our game).

I developed a concept in the meantime of "dirty magic" and paradigms: that a sorcerer's spells would have lingering passive effects on them depending on the paradigm they chose: But this too would constitute going into most arcane spells and taking into account multiple interactions. More doable than a dozen custom feats, but still basically untenable in the time it would take to do and do well.

What I ended up with was a plan that would work around 5 custom feats given to Sorcerer as they level up(3 really, one is just a duplicate of itself at a different level and another uses already existing NWN feats). Possibly lower, because a lot of it might be solved by having the spell scripts check to see if a Sorcerer is casting it first. Between these, I believe we've got something that will accomplish the main goal of making them feel much more natural than any other casting class, without flat out increasing their "power"(DC, maximum per-round damage output, fishing-for-1's). I really, really feel like writing a short treatise on "power" because it's a word that gets parroted more often than not without really having the hard discussion of what it means. But that's a talk for another time.

I'll eventually put the final plan up, but before that there are some conversations on increasing the flavor and playability of other tropes in the game to be had. The dialogue on doing things for one class can't constantly circle the drain of saying nothing should be done because these others are worse off... but then not do anything about the worse-off classes either. Even then, were that idea at all true, that you can't do anything for one class without fixing every class that is somehow worse, the server should have already blown up from all the spell changes.

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