View unanswered posts | View active topics * FAQ    * Search
* Login 




Forum locked This topic is locked, you cannot edit posts or make further replies.  [ 90 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2
rafaelmacgyver
 
PostPosted: Mon, Mar 13 2017, 17:24 PM 

User avatar

Player

Joined: 12 Apr 2010
Location: Rio de Janeiro - Brazil

I think getting immunity for making the save is too much without any drawback to it.

Most things when you make the save, you still get some secondary minor effect.
Like, for example, Saving from Finger of Death you still get some DMG.

When saving from Fear from any source, one could get the Fear Immunity (To avoid all that moving in and out auras to impose the check several times), but could also get the Shaken effect applied.

Well just a suggestion. Those things are 3.5 rules so I do not know how well it would work here.

_________________
Wilfire Strongfeet (Tight pants)
Adela Griffonheart (Poke)
Hallvardr Erikson (Sexy Boy)
Emilly MacMillan (Happy)

Image Image

Sprites by Raua!


 
      
Maverick00053
 
PostPosted: Mon, Mar 13 2017, 17:58 PM 

User avatar

DM

Joined: 13 Oct 2006

The immunity only lasts a few rounds. It is just in place to avoid abuse.

_________________
Active
Levexal
Techsmith Tokas Tokersun - http://amiaworld.net/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=88661


 
      
TormakSaber
 
PostPosted: Mon, Mar 13 2017, 20:50 PM 

User avatar

Player

Joined: 16 Dec 2004
Location: Somewhere

The various monster fear and CC abilities do need changed though, to respect lesser durations.

_________________
Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham


 
      
Nick11689
 
PostPosted: Tue, Mar 28 2017, 3:54 AM 

User avatar

Player

Joined: 17 Sep 2014
Location: Cleveland, Ohio

Soooo we're moving one step closer towards forcing any semblance of conflict out of Amia because Broldi made a badass barb that actually acted like a barb? This is sad. We have -one- terrifying rage user doing anything and you all cry 'unfair'. Jesus. If you can't handle conflict, continue hiding in the shrine with all that amazing rp that's sure to mold the server in a positive and realistic environment with immersion like no other; don't take it out on abilities that had no reason to be modified for years simply because a few players can't handle anything that isn't bunnies farting sunshine.

Mindblanks. They're cheap, we all have them, it renders the aura useless. If you can't pop one before conflict, sorry you never learned how to play on Amia.

_________________
Hel'Vyst Be'tner
Veris Al'Rith

- "Fuck you, I'm from Waterdeep."

Image

(OMGOSH OLIVE MADE A LIL' HEL'VYST)


 
      
Maverick00053
 
PostPosted: Tue, Mar 28 2017, 3:56 AM 

User avatar

DM

Joined: 13 Oct 2006

Nick11689 wrote:
Soooo we're moving one step closer towards forcing any semblance of conflict out of Amia because Broldi made a badass barb that actually acted like a barb? This is sad. We have -one- terrifying rage user doing anything and you all cry 'unfair'. Jesus. If you can't handle conflict, continue hiding in the shrine with all that amazing rp that's sure to mold the server in a positive and realistic environment with immersion like no other; don't take it out on abilities that had no reason to be modified for years simply because a few players can't handle anything that isn't bunnies farting sunshine.

Mindblanks. They're cheap, we all have them, it renders the aura useless. If you can't pop one before conflict, sorry you never learned how to play on Amia.


No. Stop making assumptions. This fear aura has been broken for a very, very long time. It does not make it useless either so please stop being dramatic. I am giving you a firm warning right now. This and other baseless claims stay out of the Improving Amia section of the forums, or you will be banned from it.

_________________
Active
Levexal
Techsmith Tokas Tokersun - http://amiaworld.net/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=88661


 
      
TormakSaber
 
PostPosted: Tue, Mar 28 2017, 5:12 AM 

User avatar

Player

Joined: 16 Dec 2004
Location: Somewhere

Rage was on the fix list for seriously five years. Broldi had nothing to do with it, he was just the most recent user.

Rage happens before mindblank animation and mindblank is breachable, then allowing you to aura wiggle a Dc 90 fear save.

_________________
Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham


 
      
Commie
 
PostPosted: Tue, Mar 28 2017, 5:30 AM 

User avatar

Player

Joined: 02 Dec 2015

Nick11689 wrote:
Mindblanks. They're cheap, we all have them, it renders the aura useless. If you can't pop one before conflict, sorry you never learned how to play on Amia.


Just a thing in case anyone else mentions this;

If you breached someone that had a mind blank, it would purge the mind blank.

http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Breach

15th on the list, that's pretty high up.

So hit T-Rage, breach them, run at them, then wiggle your aura. Even if they pulled a mind blank up the moment your nigh-instant wand went off, it was trivial to force them to make 3/4 saves vs your terrifying rage DC in the 1/2 round it would take them to drink a new MB.

This was part of the problem, there was no actual counter to this action.

_________________
ANT ALARM

Count Kaldrjarn Pitt | Archmage Kilmar | Sarguk Morderer

ANT ALARM

MisterLich wrote:
First of all, my brain is one of the best here.


 
      
Nick11689
 
PostPosted: Tue, Mar 28 2017, 7:51 AM 

User avatar

Player

Joined: 17 Sep 2014
Location: Cleveland, Ohio

Items with breach aren't exactly easy to come by. In all my time on Amia, I've seen one barb with an item with spell breach and that... was Maurice, who, yes, used the tactic beautifully. But that's one player with one rare item (the rarest?). DC 38 terrifying rage auras are hardly something worth working towards and that's about as high as that DC is gonna get. More than likely it would be in the low thirties as gear isn't counted and higher level monsters would giggle at that DC. Against players? Sure, this decision stops mau- barbarians from scaring the crap out of anyone. Against non player enemies? T rage just became a wasted feat; might as well go dev crit barb.

_________________
Hel'Vyst Be'tner
Veris Al'Rith

- "Fuck you, I'm from Waterdeep."

Image

(OMGOSH OLIVE MADE A LIL' HEL'VYST)


 
      
TormakSaber
 
PostPosted: Tue, Mar 28 2017, 8:02 AM 

User avatar

Player

Joined: 16 Dec 2004
Location: Somewhere

Will saves are the lowest among monsters, universally, save among the Abyss (outsiders have full progression all saves) and Manor of Mourn (who are Undead, so Will Favored progression, but who are also immune to Mind affecting anyways).

Will saves are also universally the lowest among PCs. Breach scrolls are purchaseable, Breach Wands are creatable, so infinite Breach is within easy grasp, even without touching the tome of Mystra, which is the best option. It is equally as rare as any other drop in the +5 bin.

A 24/4/2 with Epic Intimidate and 10 CON mod will get 11+12+10+3 = DC 35 Fear. A wizard with 40 int and Epic Focus Necromancy will get DC 10+4+6+15 = DC 35. For 10 less ability points, while maintaining full BAB and the ability to still also go Dev Crit, you've attained the same Fear DC as an Epic Necromancer. You also likely have more than triple their HP. You can trigger it an unlimited number of times on different monsters as lon as your rage is up, and it moves with you, meaning anything that even want to attempt to close with you is forced to make the save. You also no longer need to gear for intimidate to make your feat function, freeing up room for more stats, saves, resistances, regen, or what have you.

_________________
Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham


 
      
Commie
 
PostPosted: Tue, Mar 28 2017, 8:04 AM 

User avatar

Player

Joined: 02 Dec 2015

Due to how auras work you can force a save many many many times a round via movement.

It's not once. And most barbs splash a level of bard for UMD which lets you use breach wands, then wiggle away.

And when the DC was 80 ish, you just won.

_________________
ANT ALARM

Count Kaldrjarn Pitt | Archmage Kilmar | Sarguk Morderer

ANT ALARM

MisterLich wrote:
First of all, my brain is one of the best here.


 
      
Broldi
 
PostPosted: Tue, Mar 28 2017, 8:16 AM 

User avatar

Player

Joined: 06 Dec 2012

Cant use items during rage though. Near instant? No, its a full round action in comparrison to the potion which is half. If you all think t-rage was undefeatable or some crap, shut up and pull your head out of your ass. Zoltan and I dueled a lot. He kicked maurices ass atleast half of the time.

But hey. You just killed a very easily mitigateable epic feat that requires, and is the only reason to go 16+barb levels. Not a big investement though. K. I mean. Yeh barbarian gets loads of feats to compensa- oh never mind. But they get loads of save- oh. Not saves either. So what do they get? Oh they get a rage that in its self has huge draw backs such as -4AC, the inability to use items, the fact that one spell breach during a barbs rage turns him into a pissed off kangaroo with a stick up its ass.

Commie your response speaks levels for your inexperience with this feat and combatting it as it takes me 2 rounds fear you as triggreing rage and breaking your mind blank takes two full round actions. Potions are the fastest action. Tornak, why is commie allowed to make baseless claims and we can't?

Also tormak, you think the feat is viable, no enemies get feared any more. The highest monster i can fear is the giants if they roll low. So now terri-rage js unbalanced in that its useless in PvE, nearly completely as enemy will saves are very high, and you know that. In PvP I haven't been able to try becauce after all of the whining maurice caused I gave up trying to motivate amia toward pvp because it becomes saltier than LoL if PvP happens.

Tormak i see an even bigger investement now for a lot less gain. I think some adjustment may be warrented because Maurices fear aura doesnt even fear anything now.

_________________
MAURICE "THE JUGGERNAUT" GRAFF


 
      
TormakSaber
 
PostPosted: Tue, Mar 28 2017, 8:25 AM 

User avatar

Player

Joined: 16 Dec 2004
Location: Somewhere

You went 16 barb and expect your feat to work on end game content.

Invest more in your class, and it will work better. You chose to build barb/bard/PM. The tradeoff was a less powerful rage and associate rage feats.

Wands are instant use. His claim is not baseless. Point, click, the effect goes.

It's not about Maurice. The feat was set to be fixed for literally five years. A DC 70-90 save of any effect is too much, and that it could be done without being epic in the class was even worse.

_________________
Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham


 
      
Broldi
 
PostPosted: Tue, Mar 28 2017, 8:28 AM 

User avatar

Player

Joined: 06 Dec 2012

I went 16 on barb because prerequisite then you changed the rules on me. It may not be about maurice but in not considering characters like maurice with low barb levels, you broke them.

_________________
MAURICE "THE JUGGERNAUT" GRAFF


 
      
TormakSaber
 
PostPosted: Tue, Mar 28 2017, 8:31 AM 

User avatar

Player

Joined: 16 Dec 2004
Location: Somewhere

So request a rebuild and remove the feat, the same as any character affected by a balance change like this is generally eligible to do.

The fact that possibly the best way to take advantage of the feat was to take as little barb as possible and mix it with other classes probably speaks to a design problem with the feat, when it's related to a core class feature

_________________
Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham


 
      
Broldi
 
PostPosted: Tue, Mar 28 2017, 8:40 AM 

User avatar

Player

Joined: 06 Dec 2012

Nah, I'm done with Maurice as I said. He made people too salty. I'm just gutted about not really having a choice as ill now have to pay to rebuild or level 1-30 again. Whih is still an awfully boring grind. So no thanks. I'll just put my now wasted time into the vault.

_________________
MAURICE "THE JUGGERNAUT" GRAFF


 
      
Kamina
 
PostPosted: Tue, Mar 28 2017, 9:01 AM 

User avatar

Player

Joined: 05 Jul 2007
Location: Kent, England.

We're offering free rebuilds for Barbs regarding this change, a thread will be there in due course

_________________
Image
"Operating in the border between light and darkness, shadowdancers
are nimble artists of deception. They are mysterious and
unknown, never completely trusted but always inducing wonder
when met"


 
      
Commie
 
PostPosted: Tue, Mar 28 2017, 15:00 PM 

User avatar

Player

Joined: 02 Dec 2015

Broldi wrote:
Nah, I'm done with Maurice as I said. He made people too salty. I'm just gutted about not really having a choice as ill now have to pay to rebuild or level 1-30 again. Whih is still an awfully boring grind. So no thanks. I'll just put my now wasted time into the vault.


For the record, I'm not salty, and I never even saw you use the feat.

However;

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=84645

The discussion and subsequent agreement to change it wrapped up basically the same month I joined amia and NWN.

The reason I rallied against the feat so hard recently was because, frankly, I never saw any t-rage people and thought it had been fixed or was going to be fixed soon.

_________________
ANT ALARM

Count Kaldrjarn Pitt | Archmage Kilmar | Sarguk Morderer

ANT ALARM

MisterLich wrote:
First of all, my brain is one of the best here.


 
      
Maverick00053
 
PostPosted: Tue, Mar 28 2017, 16:49 PM 

User avatar

DM

Joined: 13 Oct 2006

Kamina wrote:
We're offering free rebuilds for Barbs regarding this change, a thread will be there in due course


Quoting this because it is important.

My main toon was a terror rager and it hurt. In the end though it had to be done for balance. Rebuild into fighter instead of barb if it is a big concern.

_________________
Active
Levexal
Techsmith Tokas Tokersun - http://amiaworld.net/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=88661


 
      
rafaelmacgyver
 
PostPosted: Tue, Mar 28 2017, 19:17 PM 

User avatar

Player

Joined: 12 Apr 2010
Location: Rio de Janeiro - Brazil

Both the Feat and the Skill points will be able to get changed on the Rebiuld?

_________________
Wilfire Strongfeet (Tight pants)
Adela Griffonheart (Poke)
Hallvardr Erikson (Sexy Boy)
Emilly MacMillan (Happy)

Image Image

Sprites by Raua!


 
      
Tarnus
 
PostPosted: Tue, Mar 28 2017, 20:23 PM 

User avatar

Player

Joined: 28 Aug 2015

Yes.

_________________
Playing as:
Aleana Xiloscient: Wherever the winds take her.
Jealesyl Truesong: A voice in the dark
DM Prometheus: Bringing you fire


 
      
Akhlys
 
PostPosted: Tue, Mar 28 2017, 22:10 PM 

User avatar

Player

Joined: 17 Feb 2015

Commie wrote:
Due to how auras work you can force a save many many many times a round via movement.


You don't know what you're talking about. Just stop posting.

_________________
M A I T I
T A T U


 
      
Commie
 
PostPosted: Tue, Mar 28 2017, 22:20 PM 

User avatar

Player

Joined: 02 Dec 2015

Akhlys wrote:
Commie wrote:
Due to how auras work you can force a save many many many times a round via movement.


You don't know what you're talking about. Just stop posting.


Did it work differently from all the other auras? Didn't you need to make a save as soon as you enter it? Could you not keep someone or have someone on the fringe of the aura and trigger the save repeatedly?

_________________
ANT ALARM

Count Kaldrjarn Pitt | Archmage Kilmar | Sarguk Morderer

ANT ALARM

MisterLich wrote:
First of all, my brain is one of the best here.


 
      
Richard_Edmund
 
PostPosted: Tue, Mar 28 2017, 22:58 PM 

User avatar

Player

Joined: 23 Sep 2012
Location: Western Australia (+8 GMT)

I'm fairly sure the auras don't exist from an IC perspective, so to do that would be considered metagaming.

_________________
Elwyn Sabel - Laura Jarshall - Mordoc Ebonhand

Discord: Bhaalorian#5715


 
      
Commie
 
PostPosted: Tue, Mar 28 2017, 23:03 PM 

User avatar

Player

Joined: 02 Dec 2015

Richard_Edmund wrote:
I'm fairly sure the auras don't exist from an IC perspective, so to do that would be considered metagaming.


if you fear someone, and they run away, and you right click them, you will force them to re-enter the aura and they make a new save. Every time. This is why a pinch of immunity was added.

if you just stand at just the right place and wiggle, you can force like 10 saves a second.

edit; went to crypt of burning dead. enemy there has the fear aura. it decided to double back and go around a pillar and that caused me to make 6 saves in about 1 second.

_________________
ANT ALARM

Count Kaldrjarn Pitt | Archmage Kilmar | Sarguk Morderer

ANT ALARM

MisterLich wrote:
First of all, my brain is one of the best here.


 
      
Xenos
 
PostPosted: Wed, Mar 29 2017, 19:39 PM 

User avatar

Player

Joined: 03 Jan 2007

TormakSaber wrote:
A 24/4/2 with Epic Intimidate and 10 CON mod will get 11+12+10+3 = DC 35 Fear. A wizard with 40 int and Epic Focus Necromancy will get DC 10+4+6+15 = DC 35. For 10 less ability points, while maintaining full BAB and the ability to still also go Dev Crit, you've attained the same Fear DC as an Epic Necromancer. You also likely have more than triple their HP. You can trigger it an unlimited number of times on different monsters as lon as your rage is up, and it moves with you, meaning anything that even want to attempt to close with you is forced to make the save. You also no longer need to gear for intimidate to make your feat function, freeing up room for more stats, saves, resistances, regen, or what have you.

Also note worthy that the Terror Rage is not a spell, and thus attacks BASE Will, where as that Epic Necro is hitting your SC modified will. Pretty huge, because outside of a Wisdom char, or a Paladin, i don't think you will find people with 30+ Will often. Its always just been to easy to count on your SC or Mind Blank.

While it sucks this was nerfed, hopefully it means Barbs can get some love in other ways. Maybe removing that annoying 'Cant use Items while raged' thing?

_________________
Image

House Auvrea'Kan Crafts and Services is now open and prepared to discuss orders.


 
      
elmmaster
 
PostPosted: Mon, Apr 03 2017, 2:53 AM 

User avatar

Player

Joined: 25 Oct 2008
Location: In my own little world.

I don't really care if this is offensive or not but it is my opinion and one shared by many others. The Nerfing of so many abilities and classes to appease the PVPers and the whiners has killed peoples interest in coming to Amia. You believe you are fixing balancing issues because someone found a way to abuse something in PVP, but in doing so completely brake something against PVE. Even once you have things functionally working in YOUR "balanced fixed", you have things so altered that people coming from other servers get one look at it and say "HELLS NO!" and run for the hills. If you aren't building around the fighter class and still want a mighty melee build dev crit used to be the way to go... now it's a glorified knockdown. Barbarians rages bonuses and special rages your thing? NOT here they're not! It's BS and too much. I am and always have been a fan of barbarians and have never built a low barbarian level build. Change after change in Amia has nerfed that class into nothing more than a hot head bar brawler while spell casters in Amia are walking talking demigods.

_________________
The Madness Behind
Clobberknocker Ivoryskull
(Click for Current Themesong)
Slangachduinn Garurtiejir


 
      
Commie
 
PostPosted: Mon, Apr 03 2017, 2:56 AM 

User avatar

Player

Joined: 02 Dec 2015

if you're able to beat PVE content solely because of a DC70 will save DC, and can no longer do so now that you have a mid 30's will save DC, then I don't know what to tell you.

Every other class has saves that cap in that range. T. Rage was an oversight.

_________________
ANT ALARM

Count Kaldrjarn Pitt | Archmage Kilmar | Sarguk Morderer

ANT ALARM

MisterLich wrote:
First of all, my brain is one of the best here.


 
      
TormakSaber
 
PostPosted: Mon, Apr 03 2017, 3:10 AM 

User avatar

Player

Joined: 16 Dec 2004
Location: Somewhere

elmmaster wrote:
I don't really care if this is offensive or not but it is my opinion and one shared by many others. The Nerfing of so many abilities and classes to appease the PVPers and the whiners has killed peoples interest in coming to Amia. You believe you are fixing balancing issues because someone found a way to abuse something in PVP, but in doing so completely brake something against PVE. Even once you have things functionally working in YOUR "balanced fixed", you have things so altered that people coming from other servers get one look at it and say "HELLS NO!" and run for the hills. If you aren't building around the fighter class and still want a mighty melee build dev crit used to be the way to go... now it's a glorified knockdown. Barbarians rages bonuses and special rages your thing? NOT here they're not! It's BS and too much. I am and always have been a fan of barbarians and have never built a low barbarian level build. Change after change in Amia has nerfed that class into nothing more than a hot head bar brawler while spell casters in Amia are walking talking demigods.


Um... every rage except terrifying is monumentally buffed on Amia compared to Vanilla. You understand that, right?

Terrifying is so broken there is commentary in its code to this effect, about it being altered already from what it should be, and how if you're a rules lawyer you can change it back. That is actual code comments from Bioware's programmers.

Dev Crit is a "glorified knockdown" (the blind/deaf/silence lasts for minutes, not rounds, btw) now because without it the entire meta was rapiers, scimitars, and kukris fishing for an unstoppable 10-20 or 12-20 instant uncounterable kill that could proc up to seven times a round. A great deal of servers literally just turn it off and remove it, which makes our changes a pretty nice compromise in comparison.

Edit: If you want strong non fighter focused melee builds that don't take dev crit, or have the option to not take Dev Crit in favor of other feats that up saves, skills, or offer other things, here's several options. I dont know what constitutes "Building around the fighter class" so please forgive my class usage:

Paladin 25/fighter 4/1 rogue 1
Paladin 28/Rogue 2
Paladin 28/cleric 1/monk 1
Ranger 25/fighter 4/rogue 1
Ranger 24/fighter 4/rogue 2
Ranger 23/fighter 4/Monk 3
Barbarian 12/rogue 2/blackguard 16 (cha focus gets you get Taunt here too, sleeper power)
Monk 25/fighter 4/rogue 1
Monk 23/fighter 6/rogue 1
Barbarian 10/rogue 2/RDD 18 (EDR focus, TONS of con boosts, tons of HP)
Monk 10/sorceror 2/RDD 18
Monk 20/sorceror 1/ RDD 9 (if you want wings.)
Barbarian 16/Bard 4/PM 10
Cleric 25/fighter 4/rogue 1
Cleric 23/fighter 6/rogue 1 (battle clerics are hella melee builds.)
Druid 28/ranger 1/rogue 1 (Dragonshape is HELLA melee - but you can even do a silly Blood Frenzy melee build if you want. Not as good as the cleric, though.)
Barbarian 24/Fighter 4/Rogue 2 (take Thundering/Mighty vs Dev, or EDR)
Barbarian 25/Fighter 4/Rogue 1
Rogue 19/Master Scout 5/Fighter 6 (do we only want STR builds here? Probably. You could do this in STr form but it probably isn't as good as the epic dodge one. Sneaks + STr is hella damage though. Fun gimmick?)
Barbarian 24/Knight Commander 5/Rogue 1 (Auras forever!)
Monk 20/Knight Commander 5/Master Scout 5 (Monks have so many open feats this becomes viable. Have all the Amian content!)
Ranger 25/Master Scout (or Knight Commander) 5
Ranger 24/MS or KC 5/Rogue 1
Paladin 25/Master Scout (or Knight Commander) 5
Paladin 24/MS or KC 5/Rogue 1
Paladin 19/Divine Champ 10/Rogue 1
Fighter 6/Master Scout 5/Assassin 19 (Is it really building for fighter at that point? You can do it STr or DEX.)
Fighter 6/Master Scout 5/WM 19 (again, is it really building for fighter at thgat point? Debatable, I guess.)

These were all just listed off of the top of my head, and are builds that like to be in melee, do strong damage, and do not care if they don't take Dev Crit.

_________________
Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham


 
      
robbi320
 
PostPosted: Mon, Apr 03 2017, 13:09 PM 



Player

Joined: 04 Jan 2015

So, are you saying that it used to be balanced, with a willsave that was unbeatable, save for a 20?

And, well, yes. Maybe the bonuses from barb are worse than they are in vanilla, on the first look at them. But the old rage was just adding strength and con to the barb. In vanilla, a barb that has good equip that gives 12 str and con is screwed in vanilla. Now, you actually get bonuses.

Scpellcasters? Well, in PnP, I'd say it's the same. But then, the technically have a downside of spellcasters: Being prepared. In PvP, when are you going to fight a wizard who is completely prepared? I'd say, most of the time, it is when you are an idiot. And out of PvP, normal grinding, most classes/builds can do that. In events, personally, I would say that monsters should be balanced a bit around your party, but even if not, barbs are not 'nothing more than a hot head brawler'. A barb does not need to prepare. Yes, a spellcaster has time stop, but that still does not mean he can buff to infinity just from that... Also, you how to kill a spellcaster? Now, we can request items with breach or mords on them, so just mords them, or, if they are not that buffed yet, charge them and kill them. They need to prepare before they can do anything. A barb just needs to rage.

Also, quite honestly, complaining about how long things take the dev team to do things, that kind of makes me wonder whether you play any other online games, that sill are balanced. Best example I know: League of Legends. Do you know how long it takes them to have balanced champions? I mean, hell. Yasuo, Zed, many others. They just are complete BS. Cho'Gath currently. Compared to that, the dev team here takes about as long to get things working. Perhaps they are a bit slower. But, the difference is, here we have people, who not even neccessarily have a job in programming, they are doing it for fun, no pay, RL getting in the way quite often. And it's a really old game. It is not ideal for a dev team that is trying to make things better and new. And we don't know what is going on. I know B is being made dynamic, which takes up work. A few areas are being updated. New things. PLCs. So much more.

Barbs are not as terrible as you make them out to be, and they certainly are not worse than vanilla. If you have a suggestion on how to make them better, in a balanced way (ie. not giving them saveless fear), do that. It helps. If not, I'd even hazard to say that you are part of the whiners with your post, even though you are arguing against the whiners in it.


 
      
elmmaster
 
PostPosted: Sun, Nov 05 2017, 20:55 PM 

User avatar

Player

Joined: 25 Oct 2008
Location: In my own little world.

Ummmm, wow... I feel like a total ass right now. I feel that I really need to apologize here.

1) When I replied to this post originally I was drunk off my ass and in a bad state of mind due to real life's bs issues.

2) I know it really is inexcusable, but I think I was just so frustrated at my real life drama issues and stresses that I drunkenly lashed out at the first convenient target.

3) I do understand all the work that the Amian team goes through to make things work as smoothly as they do. It was unfair and quite idiotic of me to throw a temper tantrum over a little change in class features.

It has been a long time since I have had any free time to get back online and look back over the forums and my posts. As such it took this long for me to see what I had said back in April. I am truly and sincerely sorry for that post and any offence it may have caused. I know that this apology is 5 months over due but better late than never.

_________________
The Madness Behind
Clobberknocker Ivoryskull
(Click for Current Themesong)
Slangachduinn Garurtiejir


 
      
MightNMagic
 
PostPosted: Sun, Nov 05 2017, 23:42 PM 

User avatar

Player

Joined: 30 Jul 2013
Location: Space Australia

My only problems are with the formula and effect itself. The formula is overly-convoluted and tweaked the DC so low that the feat is nigh-worthless on any build that isn't nearly full barb 30 and that's a shame. Here if your DC is less than 40, the yardtrash endgame mobs (yetis, giants, sahuagin, etc) pretty much mock it. (The same problem wisdom-based monks have. Don't build those, kids. Waste of your time.)

And all for an ability that's at best, "annoying." The last thing a meleer wants? Fear. Fear sucks. Fear means you have to chase a damned mob halfway across the map to kill it. Ugh. On other servers I've played they realized that and changed it to a type paralyze that ignores free action (frozen with fear). A much better ability for a melee type.

All it really needed was a formula that made it reasonable dc without wiggles, what it got is a nerfing so bad you need to devote every single inch to get it usable, all for an effect that will annoy you and your party. Unfortunate.

(And dev crit is a glorified KD, pretty much. It "costs" far too much for what you get, really. It's an overpriced toy made necessary because mobs and players have discipline far outstripping AB.)

_________________
Rashad the Azure, Zakharan Merchant-lord Most Fair and Master of the Desert Wind
Loremaster Tukson Devers, Oghmanyte Wrestler of Knowledge and Child of the Passive Voice

(No tells for Rashad while I'm playing other characters please.)


 
      
Maverick00053
 
PostPosted: Mon, Nov 06 2017, 0:02 AM 

User avatar

DM

Joined: 13 Oct 2006

It isn't balanced solely with NPCs in mind but PvP and PCs. Most PCs barely get 20 willpower on a good day.

_________________
Active
Levexal
Techsmith Tokas Tokersun - http://amiaworld.net/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=88661


 
      
Broldi
 
PostPosted: Mon, Nov 06 2017, 9:00 AM 

User avatar

Player

Joined: 06 Dec 2012

This nerf killed anyones motivation to play a barbarian. Good job!

_________________
MAURICE "THE JUGGERNAUT" GRAFF


 
      
freaxxshow1338
 
PostPosted: Mon, Nov 06 2017, 14:20 PM 

User avatar

Player

Joined: 24 Jan 2017
Location: Deutschland

.. are people complaining that the Devs fixed an Aura you could wiggle in and out with a 70 Will save...? With the explanation "lul drink mindblank"?

This is what I'm getting out of all of this, and I sincerily hope thats not what is happening.

_________________
Image


 
      
robbi320
 
PostPosted: Mon, Nov 06 2017, 14:53 PM 



Player

Joined: 04 Jan 2015

Not really. It's far more that on a standard barb 24, the DC will usually not go above 30. Normal builds won't go for spell focuses, and a normal build (if you're going mighty rage) will not go over 21 con.

So, the wiggle fix definetely is a good thing, though I think it can kill a few other things, since it gives complete fear immunity, thus having the potential of screwing over casters. But not something that can be changed, at least not that I know of. I'm a bit curious how long that fear immunity lasts, though.

The problem is that even a pure fighter will have a will save of 11, most builds will go a bit higher. Not by too much, but it usually sits around 15-20, especially with the ever popular +5 fort cloak in the build, going to 20 isn't too hard. At this point, it's a 50% chance to proc, for an epic feat. In general, DC 30 is pretty low for anything epic. Now, yeah, you can devote more to having a higher DC, but that's for a 1d3 round fear, unless that was changed somewhere. Even Dev crit gives you quite a bit more with the long blind/deaf/silence to it.
Also, the 'low will' part, I've only seen the will save being a problem on... like two classes: WMs and Barbs themselves. Most other classes have no problem freeing gear up to get the will save to decent level and gain will saves as a high save enough that it's relatively safe. One of the arguably strongest builds currently: RDD, doesn't have a problem with gearing will, and has a base will of 23, plus fort cloak; Clerics have a base will of 21, plus wis bonus, +6 saves ammy, so 38; Wizards are similar, to be honest, because they also can wear whatever ammy they want; and it goes like this with most builds. Will isn't so difficult to get to a decent level, apart from two specific builds.

And all that is without factoring in one of the most common and important potions: Mind Blank.


That is most that is being said. I don't think anyone really minds that the aura is no longer "20 or be feared, with shufflesteps". But it does prove way less useful than other epic feats, just because it's so easy to counter.


 
      
Gravemaskin
 
PostPosted: Mon, Nov 06 2017, 20:21 PM 

User avatar

Player

Joined: 29 Jul 2007
Location: Norway: Home of the Trolls

Terrifying Rage
11(33intimidate/3)+12(24 levels of barb/2)+11 (21 con +12) +1 (skill focus) +3 (esf) = DC 38 Will with 2 feat investment and ignores spellcraft save bonuses

Weird
10(base) +9 (spell level) +11 (21int+12) +6 (epic spell focus) = DC 36 with 3 feat investment and respects spellcraft save bonuses

That's 2 more with 1 less feat investment and the same investment in the attribute that governs it. Not quite sure how that's underpowered...

Let's pimp out both to the upper levels of what you could get on the server and compare them.

Terrifying rage
11(33intimidate/3)+15(30barb/2)+ 15 (28 con +12) +1 (skill focus) +3 (epic skill focus) = DC 45 and ignores spellcraft save bonuses (And it can go higher with more con investment, though 28 base con would leave you with low 20's base dex or str and make your AB while raging closer to an unbuffed wm in trade for the insanely high will DC)

Weird
10(base) +9 (spell level) + 16 (30 int/cha+12) +6 = DC 41 will and respects spellcraft save bonuses (You CAN get it to DC 43 with enough great int/cha while retaining 29 or 30 caster levels, but it will cripple a build from doing anything but illusion spells more or less)

Terrifying rage comes out on top here as well.. So again.. I'm not really sure how this cripples the feat at all.. Especially since it's a lingering aura which means you can simply use a breach scroll or a greater tome of mystra to remove mindblanks and run near people before they react. With weird, you have to first disjunction, then cast weird. (Same thing, but can more easily be countered if you time the potion chug)

For those who don't know, here is the breach list and the order of spells breached.. 90% of the time when not fighting a mage, you WILL remove a lesser mindblank potion with a lesser spell breach, due to the spells on the breach list. IF you're fighting a mage, you can do it most of the time with a greater spell breach.

This change has brought the terrifying aura down to the same level as other things with DC's and out of the ream of high 70's and 90's saves... which you can completely circumvent with a healthy dose of breach scrolls. It's not broken it, it's balanced it.. and if you think your DC is low, then do the same as mages that go for high DC's do and invest in the feats and ability for it. It will make you weaker in other aspects, just as it does for mages there.. Mages who don't go higher than 20 in their main casting ability tend to be melee mages that more than make up for a lower DC trough other capabilities.. The same choice is now forced upon barbarians. It's not ruining the build, it's balancing it. AND you're still getting more, because you get more rages than a mage would get a high will DC spell, it's a lingering aura that can hit multiple people over a long period and it's a 3 feat investment for insane utility. I'm completely discounting the skill investment cost because barbarians get 4 skills per level + int mod and that's 2 more than wizards, sorcs, fighters and clerics and the same as druid, monk and bard, and 4 less than rogues.. Which means they're in the middle on skill choices from levels alone. IF they had the same progression as the ones with 2 + int, then I'd factor it into account but on skill choices they are in the upper half as bards have to dump into perform and barbarians don't NEED intimidate, unless they really want it.. and if Bards can fit in perform, you can fit in intimidate. (Also level 30 bards tend to go for both epic and normal skill focus to hit the mark and ease up equipment cost for skill bonuses.. barbarians can do the same and need NO intimidate on their gear anymore.. at all, and bards need to invest 5 to unlock all options around their skill based ability or 4 if they don't want the extra 5 rounds.. barbarians need 3.)

These are simple facts and comparisons on similar stuff already in the game. It's an attempted objective take on the benefits and gains of the terrifying rage when compared to other class features of similar DC or investment cost. Terrifying rage is now balanced and on the same level as other things, without having to be the sole focus of a build and actually puts it in the upper half of the balance spectrum because your rages give a crap ton of other bonuses that can put Barbs well above fighter/wms in clearing efficiency and pvp while also having the potential to give barbarians the second highest AB on the server, trumped only by AA's.

If you think balancing this has made it useless, then you need to re-assess how you view balance.

edit:
Fixed wail with weird and the DC calculation.. stat calculation should have been 11 not 8.

_________________
Adair - Druid and part time treant cosplayer


Last edited by Gravemaskin on Mon, Nov 06 2017, 22:02 PM, edited 1 time in total.

 
      
robbi320
 
PostPosted: Mon, Nov 06 2017, 21:01 PM 



Player

Joined: 04 Jan 2015

The major difference is that a mage will want to have a high int. Just about everything a mage will want scales off int. (except for a spellblades, but there's a reason they seldomly use spells to deal damage, it's usually more of a focus on buffing, yes, they have a few spells, but it's not the major part)
A wizard based around casting offensive spells (therefore: is focusing on it being an intrinsic part of the build) can get a DC of 30+spell level, with a 'low' +14 int mod. The spell focuses help you with quite a few spells, that, in PvP can hit one target a lot. Let's say your wizard likes to cast extended, he still has more than five uses of wail, or whatever spell you like to use. Or, the 1v1 favourite, mass grease and an AoE damage spell. Here, youur high int helps you, because your damage is increased by the higher DC.
For the three feats, on top of Wail, you get horrid wilting, fear, for another a pretty strong summon, finger of death, just to name some of the better necromancy spells.

Also, you're kind of comparing apples to oranges, because wail and terrirage really aren't similar. One is one-hit-kill, the other is a 1d3 round fear. Fear means you're not getting full Attacks out. One targets fortitude, the other targets will. A more fitting example would be the fear spell, which gives a lasting doom effect, lasts 5 rounds, at three feat investement. Now, yes, the DC is 'only 34', but it's a stronger spell. Also, Mindblank does nothing against wail, and a mage can have breaches as well, he can have multiple mords, he can have just as many tomes of mystra and scrolls as a barb. Lastly, a Wizard has more space to fit these feats into his build. (again, not talking about spellswords, because they don't usually do offensive spells)

Now, a Barb. What does a Barb get based off of con? A higher DC, more hp, and longer rage. The DC, while yes, 45 seems like a lot, your strength is sitting at 14, probably. Some other builds can pull this off easily, but a barb with 14 strength gets a pretty low AB. 14 str means 41 AB with a +5 weapon. Even the +6 AB puts it into 'decent' territory, and that means giving up on the other rages.

It's more like comparing it to a con RDD. You get a nice DC 47/48 breath weapon. But apart from that, it does pretty little. You're putting your whole build into gimmick, and underperform because of it, or you just never use said gimmick, because it does nothing for you.

Claiming barbarians get the highest AB on the server is a pretty tricky thing to say, because they get two AB more than a WM, and have that half of the time. So, you're actually wrong. A WM will still have more AB, when he chugs a True Strike. And when the barb counters with the same, WM still has more.


Comparing int for wizards to con for barbs is almost like comparing str for WMs to Wis for rogues: You do get a bonus, but it really isn't that big.


 
      
Gravemaskin
 
PostPosted: Mon, Nov 06 2017, 21:21 PM 

User avatar

Player

Joined: 29 Jul 2007
Location: Norway: Home of the Trolls

Yeah that's my bad, I meant the weird spell not wail, which is the only level 9 spell that can be changed to fear from the BoT and why I used it since it's going to be the highest DC fear spell any mage can get.

Also there are still options on damage spells that don't require a DC and thus gain nothing from the increased DC. The prime example of this is IGMS and ice storm, and it's just as potent on a 20 int wizard as it is on a 40 int wizard, and why they're popular with spellblade builds. Also with damage spells, most of these have reflex saves for half, and reflex is the second most popular save to grab. Will is the one most usually neglect because of lesser mind blank potions, and it's something Barbs can capitalize off of trough terrifying rage and lesser or greater spell breaches (Both scrolls are buyable from NPC vendors)

A lot of damage spells are highly dependent on people not making the DC, sure... And even then people do it most of the time. Forcing barbs to have to do the same but to a lesser degree helps balance out an ability that's been broken since the dawn of the server and was intended to be changed several times in the past. Tormak said it's been up for discussion for 5 years, but I also remember it being brought up several times back when I joined 10 years ago. Right now it's less effective in PvP, but can give you a huge upper hand if you know how to capitalize on it, and it's spectacular for pve farming.

With con it's the most bang for your buck ability to invest in across the board, unless you're going for a dex build.
For 2 STR you gain +1 ab and damage, for 2 Dex, you get potentially 1 AB, 1 AC and +1 reflex, for Con you get +30 HP, +1 Fort. I'd say that now going a dex/con barb is very viable as barbs can get great AC, reflex (to help fight most damage spells that require reflex), high AB and decent enough damage thanks to their rage, while also getting insanely tanky with HP only rivaled by DWD's. Max out your heal and you're going to be able to heal for 88-126 hp per round once the heal potion is chugged, which should make you able to tank the majority of burst damage from a mage.

If the Terrifying rage duration has been nerfed to 1d3 rounds (It's not announced on the classes and feats section or the changelog) then I'll agree that it seems overly short for the 3 feat and 33 skill investment and should be brought up to 4 rounds, same as the fear spell.

_________________
Adair - Druid and part time treant cosplayer


 
      
robbi320
 
PostPosted: Mon, Nov 06 2017, 21:58 PM 



Player

Joined: 04 Jan 2015

All I have to go on for the duration is the NWNWikia, which states 1d3 rounds.

Well, no offense, but there's a reason I've never seen weird used, except for the singular time I used it, just because I like the VFX.

I'm a bit unsure how high you want to go with your dex/con spread, to be honest. At best, it seems like you could go for 20/20, maybe. In which case, your AC isn't really all that good. It's sitting just barely above the standard 55, at 56, maybe a really slight bit higher.

Your calculation is a bit off, to be honest. It confused me, while going through the old post.
Gravemaskin wrote:
Terrifying Rage
11(33intimidate/3)+12(24 levels of barb/2)+8 (21 con +12) +1 (skill focus) +3 (esf) = DC 35

And my own math/thought process was off somewhere as well...

And I feel like I made a few mistakes in my posts.

So, what I said about barbs is only true for devCrit barb. He'll not have a DC over 30, realistically. Now, he actually has a pretty decent AB and all that, so him having a DC of around 30 isn't too bad. He still has quite a few other tricks, and I might simply not go terrirage on him anymore. (not sure)

Now, mighty rage, or any other barb that goes to 21 con or more, he'll have, just based on int, barb and con, a DC of 34, 38 with two feats, which is pretty good, considering it is against will.


So, apart from my derp there, I do still think it should have a longer duration than 1d3 rounds, but I personally think 5 rounds might be better, considering it is an epic feat. (Also, in a certain way, your math was off, since the high DC barb does use three feats, and two epic ones at that, as opposed to two pre-epic ones, like a wizard)

And, sadly, the 30 hp aren't really doing that much. 30 hp does very little difference in my experience. Yes, it sums up if you have a lot, but one AB is almost always better than 30 hp, because that AB is making it more likely to end the fight earlier.



I realize this post is all over the place, even worse than my previous ones... Sorry.


 
      
Gravemaskin
 
PostPosted: Mon, Nov 06 2017, 22:18 PM 

User avatar

Player

Joined: 29 Jul 2007
Location: Norway: Home of the Trolls

Digging in the terrifying rage script (x2_s2_terrage_A), the duration is indeed d3 unless Amia's changed it. (Did this because I don't trust wiki's and I wanted to be sure <.<)

IF the fear immunity applies when you fail a roll and not only when you succeed one, it seems like an excessive nerf, though I doubt this is the case.
I also see there is a condition in the original script, where if the barbarian is twice your level, you loose 2 AB and 2 of all saves.. SO IF there is now an immunity that prevents you from getting feared again after failing your save, it might be another way to bump up the feat a bit by making the 2 AB and 2 save loss part of the failed save in addition to the fear instead of increasing the fear duration, and give the ab/save debuff a duration of the Barbs Con modifier. It'd be a nice middle ground, and nothing too spectacular or completely useless that got added on it, and it'd up the chances of them failing the fear roll next time it checks for it.. Though again.. only if the fear immunity is applied regardless of a failed or successful save.

Though I'm pretty sure it only gives the fear immunity on a successful save for a few rounds to prevent aura abuseage, not when you fail the fear roll, and in that case it's fine as is imho. It means it greatly rewards barbs going for a high DC since it opens up for people failing the roll more than once and staying feared for a good bit of time as long as the barb can remain close to them, which feels like the intended design of the ability and as stated the immunity has a short duration so there's a high probability of people having to make multiple rolls in a fight unless one build is very superior to the other and both players know what they're doing. Besides getting feared for d3 rounds while on half HP or something can flat out loose you the fight, same as failing a devcrit could, so there's still plenty of situations where it can be the deciding factor, and thus remain useful but not overly so, same as Dev. (Actually probably more useful than dev in those situations, since most people have 40+ fort now and devvers tend to be fishing for 1's (5% chances), rather than a 5->% chance, since will isn't usually high.. if someone's got 30 Will vs the 38 terrifying rage, that's a 35% chance of failing every time it's checked. Though most tend to have low 20's OR 40+ if it's a wis based class.)

_________________
Adair - Druid and part time treant cosplayer


 
      
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Forum locked This topic is locked, you cannot edit posts or make further replies.  [ 90 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 6 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group