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lilmarcat
 
PostPosted: Tue, Feb 14 2017, 22:28 PM 



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Cause cluttering General Questions is bad.

Commie wrote:
Is terrifying rage and other aura vs fear effects being looked into? Being made to make five or six DC vs intimate saves in a second due to aura wiggling is not fun (and you can breach off mind black and then wiggle in the half round it takes them to quaff a new mind blank forcing several unprotected saves vs fear), and iirc you can no longer request fear immunity on items.

So what do we do about this?


lilmarcat wrote:
Limit terro-rage DC to Barbarian levels x 2 - 10? :D

Standard Barbarian has 24 levels due to all the rages mostly capping out at that point. 24 x 2 -10 = 38DC. Max DC is 50 with a pure Barbarian.

Opustus wrote:
A cap to the Terrifying fear DC sounds like an easy fix insofar as Barbie is concerned. However, it doesn't fix the same issue with the dragon and wraith auras, if indeed that is considered problematic at all. I for one think that the check triggering every so often in the attack animation tango is bothersome, though it doesn't carry the same PvP implications as the Barbie aura does.

Can't think of any other auras that would pose the same problem. Can you guys?


Terallis wrote:
Well, the DC would be one thing. However, I honestly see no problem with the Terrifying Rage DC at the current time. Immunity to Fear items may no longer be requested, but you can very easily get stuff to do Remove Fear in all honesty. Blank Wand + Mage with the Spell and feat = Profit. Hell, there are other things that can prevent it as well. Of course preventing getting dispelled is also not the hardest thing. Though is a bit more difficult to find. The best being a Tome of Mystra with Greater Spell Mantle. Or even scrolls of the same. Maybe a wand? Not sure if GSM can be put on a wand. But there are ways to go against it.

For the repetitive saves being dished out, that's actually something hardcoded in the game, if I recall correctly. It's not something that can really be changed. Maybe with a hak update and a metric ton of work. It's just how fear auras as a whole are. However, I could also be wrong about that. Either way, staying inside the aura will generally not prompt multiple saves. If you stand at the very edge of the aura and the person moves or whatever, then yeah.

Commie wrote:
Yeah the plan was to make it like ten plus one half barb plus con. But it never went in.

Wondering if it could go in or if T. Rage could be changed so you can't wiggle and force someone to make seven or eight saves a round d.


You can use a breach scroll or Wand and run at them. Even if they queue up a mind blank cast or pot instantly you can easily cause them to make three or four saves vs fear.

It's flat busted. Been flat busted. Wasn't really a big issue as no one was really riding the fear aura. But you really can't win against it. It's trivial to get a will vs fear with a DC of over sixty and you can make people make that save many many times a round. It's busted, needs to be fixed.


Also you could make the fear save happen when the rage is activated instead of just always on. Then it would fix it.


Opustus wrote:
For me the rationale to changing Barbie aura is not a matter of nerfing - I believe the class could use a buff strictly in terms of class balance -, but it's a question of how much sense does it make to encourage a way of combat wherein people continually cast and dispel, and find yet more ways of continuing this tedious loop; and further, how this wars against the concept of the barbarian's preternatural and rampant ken of battle? It's not a question of if it's broken, but does it encourage a style of gameplay we can enjoy.



Another option would be to grant anyone that passes the Will save fear immunity for 1 round. Not sure how quickly that would kick in though for multiple rolls per round.


 
      
Opustus
 
PostPosted: Tue, Feb 14 2017, 22:57 PM 

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Good idea!

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Akhlys
 
PostPosted: Tue, Feb 14 2017, 23:17 PM 

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Once per rage, enemies within the rage aura radius must pass a will save of 10 + 1/2 intimidate + charisma modifier or be 'Immobilized' for 1 round per 10 barbarian levels. In addition, all enemies within the radius are affected by 'Doom' (-2 modifier to all attack rolls, magical damage, saving throws, and skill checks.).

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bobofwestoregonusa
 
PostPosted: Wed, Feb 15 2017, 0:05 AM 

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Terri Rage doesn't need a nerf, just carry mindblanks.

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Akhlys
 
PostPosted: Wed, Feb 15 2017, 0:12 AM 

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bobofwestoregonusa wrote:
Terri Rage doesn't need a nerf, just carry mindblanks.


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Commie
 
PostPosted: Wed, Feb 15 2017, 0:25 AM 

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immunity would be ok. i'd be down for immunity of a minute or two so the 'wiggle-dc60fear-7 will saves a round' spam thing isn't a thing.

same with the dragon knight.

for the saves i'd use con over cha.

Akhlys wrote:
Once per rage, enemies within the rage aura radius must pass a will save of 10 + 1/2 intimidate + charisma modifier or be 'Immobilized' for 1 round per 10 barbarian levels. In addition, all enemies within the radius are affected by 'Doom' (-2 modifier to all attack rolls, magical damage, saving throws, and skill checks.).


rolling skills vs saves is garbage. you can inflate skills so high here it's trivial to get even your suggestion to well over a DC60.

normal non-prestige class saves are 10 + 1/2 class level + stat mod. I'd say do that for barb and use constitution, and add a 2 minute fear immunity on a made or failed save, so it doesn't get continuously re-applied as you run away. if you go hard into it this puts your save DC about the same place as spells with an epic spell focus, which seems fair.

again this is a class ability long over-due for a change, and the pvpers sort of had this agreement not to use it as it was actually a broken mechanic, but enough time has passed with no change that it needs to be addressed.

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Akhlys
 
PostPosted: Wed, Feb 15 2017, 1:04 AM 

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Nah, it's an epic feat that requires 15 barbarian levels and 25 skill points. At the very most it would inflict three rounds of CC, and that requires pure barbarian. It is more likely to do one or two rounds, and that is assuming the enemy has no mind blank or another form of immunity to mind-affecting effects.

Without itemization, the formula I provided would have a DC against will of about 25. That is quite reasonable, as most characters have at least 17 will. Even if you do stack items to cap yourself out on intimidate, the DC would at most be about 55. That is something very few characters have the ability to save against, but it requires a very heavy investment to do so.

Compare that to the assassin which has multiple forms of CC on its basic attacks. On its first flurry, it will incur four fortitude saves. This DC is anywhere from 30 to 40+ depending on how invested one is into intelligence. Freedom will prevent the paralysis completely, but if the character has no freedom, but still has the fortitude to make the save 100% of the time, there is a 18.5% chance that they will roll a one and fail anyway. This paralysis lasts 1 turn per assassin levels, meaning nearly twenty minutes.

Now freedom is a fairly easy item property to have, so we will strike it out for a moment to go onto the other options assassin receives without any epic feat requirements.

Braining Blow: two round stun, will DC; mind-blank prevents
Stalker's Throat-Dart: ~two minute silence, fortitude DC; auto-silence counters
Induce Amaurosis: ~two minute blind, fortitude DC; true seeing and blind fight together counters
Kneecapper's Knife: ~six round knockdown, reflex DC; no counter
Murder: death, fortitude DC; no counter

Of these, Braining Blow is the closest comparison. Both last two rounds. Both are prevented by mind blank. Both can be triggered after mind blank is stripped. Both require itemization to increase the DC. Both can reach a point on the DC where the target's saves become irrelevant. Both have a minute long cooldown between uses. The difference here is that assassin requires 8 hide and 8 move silently, where as terrifying rage requires 25 intimidate and an epic feat.

An argument can be made that terrifying rage can affect multiple enemies at once, where as Braining Blow cannot, but the barbarian is not going to be able to strip the mind blanks of multiple targets, so that is largely irrelevant.

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Commie
 
PostPosted: Wed, Feb 15 2017, 1:19 AM 

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Quote:
Of these, Braining Blow is the closest comparison. Both last two rounds. Both are prevented by mind blank. Both can be triggered after mind blank is stripped. Both require itemization to increase the DC. Both can reach a point on the DC where the target's saves become irrelevant. Both have a minute long cooldown between uses. The difference here is that assassin requires 8 hide and 8 move silently, where as terrifying rage requires 25 intimidate and an epic feat.


Not really. Braining Blow only works on a successful attack that does damage.

T. Rage can force you to make many many saves a round, yet alone per minute. Braining blow is one save a minute, on a successful hit that does damage.

Assassin skills realistically cap in the low 30's. It's 10 + assassin level + int mod. This int aspect is offset by it being a melee build so it also needs to-hit. You could spec/itemize to be int + attacking attribute, but even with a +10 int mod and 18 assassin you're looking at a 38, which is the epic spell DC of wizards, so it's fine there. But if you suggest 1/2 of intimidate, well, 33 from your class, 10 from epic focus (which is crazy good now as it's +5 on your DC) and lets say you also put 25 on your gear which is a minimal investment. So you're looking at, in my example, 10 + 34 (intimidate) + cha mod. Already well beyond the save of assassin, or even spells, before cha mod or serious intimidate investment.

It's not a fair comparison. Much less because freedom is passive available so easily, and you need to make a successful damage-dealing melee attack, and can't just force a save vs dc60+ 6 or so times a round w/o actually attacking.

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Commie
 
PostPosted: Wed, Feb 15 2017, 1:25 AM 

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Because that's really the crux of a CC on an aura in nwn; You have to make the save every time you enter the aura.

If they breach you, and then queue up a right click on you, you are going to have to make the save while you try and chug another mind blank which just got breached off. Odds are you arn't going to be able to do that. Then when you run, and they chase you, every time you leave and re-enter the aura the duration gets reset because you likely didn't make that Will vs their intimidate skill.

Over and over and over and over and over until you die.

That's the whole issue here. Not to mention people actually abusing the aura mechanics to make you make as many saves in a short of a time span as their connection allows by just wiggling you into and out of the aura. Even if it was DC1 it would be crazy good used this way because once you fail you're dead. And when you're making so many saves so fast you are going to roll a 1. It's just such a big issue as the DC is vs a skill so you can very very easily get the DC well higher then anyone could ever hope to meet. W/o giving much, if anything, up aside from a few mythal slots.

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Akhlys
 
PostPosted: Wed, Feb 15 2017, 1:43 AM 

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Come on now. You're playing an assassin and you're going to say "only works if it does damage." 10d6 sneaks aren't going to do damage? You aren't going to be able to find a damage type to put on your weapons to inflict a single point? You're being intellectually dishonest.

The very first stanza of my suggestion said once per rage. There is no multiple triggering. If you don't believe me, play the base game. Amia's version is an alteration of it. The base game has a single save and inflicts paralysis for 1d3 rounds. If you want to make an argument against me, don't leave out the very basis of mine. And spending two epic feats to have situational, low duration CC like I suggested seems like a fair exchange to me.

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Commie
 
PostPosted: Wed, Feb 15 2017, 1:54 AM 

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Akhlys wrote:
Come on now. You're playing an assassin and you're going to say "only works if it does damage." 10d6 sneaks aren't going to do damage? You aren't going to be able to find a damage type to put on your weapons to inflict a single point? You're being intellectually dishonest.

The very first stanza of my suggestion said once per rage. There is no multiple triggering. If you don't believe me, play the base game. Amia's version is an alteration of it. The base game has a single save and inflicts paralysis for 1d3 rounds. If you want to make an argument against me, don't leave out the very basis of mine. And spending two epic feats to have situational, low duration CC like I suggested seems like a fair exchange to me.


No, I've fought people with DR and resistances, if it doesn't do damage, assassin shit actually doesn't even proc (remember resist/10 is one mythal slot and there's no reason to not have common ones). Compare to barbarian rage, where you simply need to be in proximity for it to work.

You can get around this via sneak attacks and stuff, but still, only working on a weapon hit that deals damage and then once a minute (even if you have two weapons, it can only proc once a minute total) is totally different from "being in the proximity of."

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Akhlys
 
PostPosted: Wed, Feb 15 2017, 1:57 AM 

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Terrifying rage would only be able to be proc'ed every two+ minutes.

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Commie
 
PostPosted: Wed, Feb 15 2017, 2:02 AM 

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I still don't like save vs skills in any capacity.

Either way something has to change with t. rage. It's beyond absurd.

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lilmarcat
 
PostPosted: Wed, Feb 15 2017, 11:10 AM 



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10 + Barbarian level + CON mod vs Will; leaves them with a very respectable DC. Yet should help prevent any over the top DCs.
~54 at worst. Averages between 32-46.

Giving the target fear immunity for one round after successfully passing a terro-rage save should hopefully prevent multiple rolls in one round, and can be explained ICly easily enough.

Giving Barbarians some buffs elsewhere to help counter these nerfs would then help. Especially given the Barbarians general lackluster power (No heavy armor, no feats, no casting ability).

Increased rage duration. War cry/Blood frenzy widgets. Blade thirst, Aura of vitality.


 
      
Commie
 
PostPosted: Wed, Feb 15 2017, 16:07 PM 

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lilmarcat wrote:
10 + Barbarian level + CON mod vs Will; leaves them with a very respectable DC.


That's going to end up with a crazy high DC. Spells usually cap out at 38 ish, and I think 40 is about as high as a save one should ever have to make.

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Opustus
 
PostPosted: Wed, Feb 15 2017, 16:32 PM 

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Did you even do the math? For stock Barb24/Stuff it would be CON9 + 10 + 24 = 43. While this is high in comparison to spell DCs, I don't see a reason to have them as yardstick for EVERY DC imaginable. With 33 Will you can still save against the Fear 50% of the time. Classes that do not have as high Barbie levels and CON would be penalized by a lower Terrifying, which makes sense: more Barb -> more Barbiness by way of terrifyingness. I think it is a feasible option.

My worry with it is that if people have essentially built around the feat and invested heavily in Intimidate, it would have a big effect on them. I'm not claiming that people should automatically be appeased, only that if it's possible, it might be the polite and reasonable thing to do to come up with a fix in a way that solves the issue without irritating anyone.

Akhlys wrote:
Once per rage, enemies within the rage aura radius must pass a will save of 10 + 1/2 intimidate + charisma modifier or be 'Immobilized' for 1 round per 10 barbarian levels. In addition, all enemies within the radius are affected by 'Doom' (-2 modifier to all attack rolls, magical damage, saving throws, and skill checks.).

I like this suggestion, actually. It sneaks in a justifiable and solid buff for Barb and doesn't inconvenience any existing barbarians. I assume the effect would mechanically be comparable to Stun? We could ditch the CHA mod from the equation and 1 round per 10 Barbarian would only ever add to 1 or 2 rounds, which isn't gamebreaking in terms of PvP or PvM; Dev rolls the same DC on a more regular basis, and I'm unconvinced people would resort to the "wiggle tactic" if there's a reasonable chance of saving against it. By ditching the CHA mod, one would be left with: 10 + 1/2 Intimidate (+ 2 effective from -2 aura saves) = 26 (effective 28) with unbuffed Intimidate. If there are items with +10 Intimidate, they would only give +5 per item, which adds up to 36 with the investment of TWO +10 Intimidate items.

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Commie
 
PostPosted: Wed, Feb 15 2017, 16:37 PM 

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Opustus wrote:
Did you even do the math? For stock Barb24/Stuff it would be CON9 + 10 + 24 = 43.


Because when 4 more barbarian levels (doing a 28/2 or 29/1 thing) gets you that much more of a DC that's what people are going to do because it's THAT good then, you push the save well over what's realistic for most people to get with those extra levels so you might as well do it.

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Commie
 
PostPosted: Wed, Feb 15 2017, 16:41 PM 

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Opustus wrote:
I like this suggestion, actually. It sneaks in a justifiable and solid buff for Barb and doesn't inconvenience any existing barbarians. I assume the effect would mechanically be comparable to Stun? We could ditch the CHA mod from the equation and 1 round per 10 Barbarian would only ever add to 1 or 2 rounds, which isn't gamebreaking in terms of PvP or PvM; Dev rolls the same DC on a more regular basis, and I'm unconvinced people would resort to the "wiggle tactic" if there's a reasonable chance of saving against it. By ditching the CHA mod, one would be left with: 10 + 1/2 Intimidate (+ 2 effective from -2 aura saves) = 26 (effective 28) with unbuffed Intimidate. If there are items with +10 Intimidate, they would only give +5 per item, which adds up to 36 with the investment of TWO +10 Intimidate items.


Considering, again, its actually pretty easy to skill-cap something, as well as just roll around with +70 to a skill and almost no real loss, it's not a viable suggestion.

Saves vs skills is a horrible idea here, moreso in this case as failing that save pretty much means death.

Quote:
Dev rolls the same DC on a more regular basis, and I'm unconvinced people would resort to the "wiggle tactic" if there's a reasonable chance of saving against it.


No, they don't. They also have to successfully land and then confirm a crit to do it not just walk nearby. It's also pretty much hard-capped at 44ish? Not, you know, 10+1/2 intimidate so lets say 40 as it's your most important skill+whatever mod you suggested.

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Yin
 
PostPosted: Wed, Feb 15 2017, 16:43 PM 

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Do not forget that this aura procs like six-seven times in a row during half round, and it will be like very low chance you roll your will high enough to resist it all the times. More to that, fear aura is pure will save, and not counts spellcraft into it, like most spells do, which means you have to boost all your gear to +20 will cap save just to have a ridiculously little chance to resist it.

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Commie
 
PostPosted: Wed, Feb 15 2017, 17:05 PM 

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Yin wrote:
Do not forget that this aura procs like six-seven times in a row during half round, and it will be like very low chance you roll your will high enough to resist it all the times. More to that, fear aura is pure will save, and not counts spellcraft into it, like most spells do, which means you have to boost all your gear to +20 will cap save just to have a ridiculously little chance to resist it.


Yeah. And if you fail and run, and they chase you, it procs again after almost every attack, as they stop to attack, hit you, you keep running and leave the aura, they run back up to you, re-apply the aura, and attack again. They can keep you perpetually feared once you fail a save, by just re-applying the aura over and over again until rage is down.

But you'll be dead before then.

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Opustus
 
PostPosted: Wed, Feb 15 2017, 17:37 PM 

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Commie wrote:
Because when 4 more barbarian levels (doing a 28/2 or 29/1 thing) gets you that much more of a DC that's what people are going to do because it's THAT good then, you push the save well over what's realistic for most people to get with those extra levels so you might as well do it.

My theory holds that people would just say meh and stick with the extra feats, proficiency and EWS from fighter levels! But it's a risk worth considering.
Commie-san wrote:
Considering, again, its actually pretty easy to skill-cap something, as well as just roll around with +70 to a skill and almost no real loss, it's not a viable suggestion.

It's "pretty easy", yet it eats up your mythal slots requiring an actual, palpable investment. I'm only aware of a few +10 Intimidate items, one of which is a helm and the other is a cloak, which you would much rather use for Disc helm and +4Fort cloak. Bard song excepted! And yus, my "more regular basis" claim was maybe unfounded, but still, I don't think people would bother with the wiggle tactic let alone the skill investment, especially since it would still require the cat-and-mouse game of Mindblank into Dispel into Mindblank ad nauseam, which is bothersome to everyone!

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PostPosted: Wed, Feb 15 2017, 18:53 PM 

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Terrifying rage is super cheesy.

First of all, yes you can carry mindblanks but terrifying ragers are allready aware of that, they will carry items to breach mindblanks. It might just become a dispell/mindblank spamfeat at worst.

Also, disables on NWN are usually bonkers. They should last 2-3 rounds at best, without being spammed ones in mind. Depending on the classes the fight is already over before 2 rounds have passed.

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Commie
 
PostPosted: Wed, Feb 15 2017, 19:20 PM 

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Opustus wrote:
Commie wrote:
Because when 4 more barbarian levels (doing a 28/2 or 29/1 thing) gets you that much more of a DC that's what people are going to do because it's THAT good then, you push the save well over what's realistic for most people to get with those extra levels so you might as well do it.

My theory holds that people would just say meh and stick with the extra feats, proficiency and EWS from fighter levels! But it's a risk worth considering.
Commie-san wrote:
Considering, again, its actually pretty easy to skill-cap something, as well as just roll around with +70 to a skill and almost no real loss, it's not a viable suggestion.

It's "pretty easy", yet it eats up your mythal slots requiring an actual, palpable investment. I'm only aware of a few +10 Intimidate items, one of which is a helm and the other is a cloak, which you would much rather use for Disc helm and +4Fort cloak. Bard song excepted! And yus, my "more regular basis" claim was maybe unfounded, but still, I don't think people would bother with the wiggle tactic let alone the skill investment, especially since it would still require the cat-and-mouse game of Mindblank into Dispel into Mindblank ad nauseam, which is bothersome to everyone!


No, you can just throw plus five as one mythal slot on many pieces of gear (rings helm torso shield neck) and not muck with your "core" slots at all. If you wear the deity rings with con or cha and ten intimidate it's even better.

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Opustus
 
PostPosted: Wed, Feb 15 2017, 19:41 PM 

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10 + 1/2 Intimidate 33 is 27, assumed it's rounded up. With every +5 Intimidate you get +2.5 DC, so in order to attain DC 40 you need to invest 5 mythal slots to bump up your Intimidate. It would not pay off to use the +10 Intimidate items. You also have to boost saves, Discipline, CON and STR. It's a pretty tall order involving relatively heavy gear management and even still it's saveable and mindblankable. With those factors, I don't agree with you that it would be "no" as you like to say a lot!

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Commie
 
PostPosted: Wed, Feb 15 2017, 20:47 PM 

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Opustus wrote:
10 + 1/2 Intimidate 33 is 27, assumed it's rounded up. With every +5 Intimidate you get +2.5 DC, so in order to attain DC 40 you need to invest 5 mythal slots to bump up your Intimidate. It would not pay off to use the +10 Intimidate items. You also have to boost saves, Discipline, CON and STR. It's a pretty tall order involving relatively heavy gear management and even still it's saveable and mindblankable. With those factors, I don't agree with you that it would be "no" as you like to say a lot!


I don't think it would be hard as I literally do it with hide on two different characters, other of people do, and bards do it with preform. It's the same thing. Getting a casual plus fifty on gear isn't difficult.

Mind blanks arnt really applicable here due to the way actions movement and breach work. If you breach and run at them you can easily make them make four or five saves in that three second half round it takes to re drink mind blank. It's actually not fair.

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Akhlys
 
PostPosted: Wed, Feb 15 2017, 21:52 PM 

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Commie wrote:
Opustus wrote:
10 + 1/2 Intimidate 33 is 27, assumed it's rounded up. With every +5 Intimidate you get +2.5 DC, so in order to attain DC 40 you need to invest 5 mythal slots to bump up your Intimidate. It would not pay off to use the +10 Intimidate items. You also have to boost saves, Discipline, CON and STR. It's a pretty tall order involving relatively heavy gear management and even still it's saveable and mindblankable. With those factors, I don't agree with you that it would be "no" as you like to say a lot!


I don't think it would be hard as I literally do it with hide on two different characters, other of people do, and bards do it with preform. It's the same thing. Getting a casual plus fifty on gear isn't difficult.

Mind blanks arnt really applicable here due to the way actions movement and breach work. If you breach and run at them you can easily make them make four or five saves in that three second half round it takes to re drink mind blank. It's actually not fair.


Repeating yourself doesn't make you right. It can be set to one save per rage. Stop implying that this is some sort of inexplicable bug that cannot be fixed.

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Commie
 
PostPosted: Wed, Feb 15 2017, 21:56 PM 

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Akhlys wrote:
Commie wrote:
Opustus wrote:
10 + 1/2 Intimidate 33 is 27, assumed it's rounded up. With every +5 Intimidate you get +2.5 DC, so in order to attain DC 40 you need to invest 5 mythal slots to bump up your Intimidate. It would not pay off to use the +10 Intimidate items. You also have to boost saves, Discipline, CON and STR. It's a pretty tall order involving relatively heavy gear management and even still it's saveable and mindblankable. With those factors, I don't agree with you that it would be "no" as you like to say a lot!


I don't think it would be hard as I literally do it with hide on two different characters, other of people do, and bards do it with preform. It's the same thing. Getting a casual plus fifty on gear isn't difficult.

Mind blanks arnt really applicable here due to the way actions movement and breach work. If you breach and run at them you can easily make them make four or five saves in that three second half round it takes to re drink mind blank. It's actually not fair.


Repeating yourself doesn't make you right. It can be set to one save per rage. Stop implying that this is some sort of inexplicable bug that cannot be fixed.


We'll see. Right now though it isn't fixed.

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lilmarcat
 
PostPosted: Sun, Mar 12 2017, 2:36 AM 



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Patch notes - Barbarian Fear Aura - New DC calculation: Base intimidation (no gear)/3 + Barbarian Level/2 + Con Modifier + 1 (if you have skill focus intimidation) + 3 (if you have Epic skill focus intimidation). If the save is made the target then gets temporary immunity to avoid shuffle stepping and spamming the aura.


 
      
Commie
 
PostPosted: Sun, Mar 12 2017, 2:43 AM 

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The balance is restored.

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OpenTheRift
 
PostPosted: Sun, Mar 12 2017, 2:57 AM 

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this reign of terror has come to an end.
/thread

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LunarBloom
 
PostPosted: Sun, Mar 12 2017, 3:12 AM 

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One person's character has been shut down. Yay...

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OpenTheRift
 
PostPosted: Sun, Mar 12 2017, 4:23 AM 

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c'mon now this was a sore thumb ability that needed to be addressed and it took until maurice for it to come to light, if anything he should be proud. he is to barbarians what [unnamed sorcerer] was to timestop, what [multiple different shifters over the balance changes] were to shifters in their myriad of broken states.

this was a long overdue balance change.

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TormakSaber
 
PostPosted: Sun, Mar 12 2017, 4:26 AM 

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Maurice didn't rage the entire tournament and still came in third, losing to un-evasionable spells after nearly killing the sd/sorc. Dude is fine.

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Cracked Red Eye Orb
 
PostPosted: Sun, Mar 12 2017, 5:06 AM 



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That seems like a really poor change in an attempt to balance terrifying rage. Reducing the duration and stopping it from reapplying over and over would probably be better than just making the DC utterly garbage.


 
      
lilmarcat
 
PostPosted: Sun, Mar 12 2017, 5:14 AM 



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The DC is still quite high actually. The temp immunity however is the much welcome bit, as it prevents multiple rolls in one round.
Maurice actually went of his way most of the time to not even use Terro-rage.
His DC which was like ~40 before will now be around

33 (base intim) + 16/2 (Barb levels) + 8 (CON mod, after gear) = 49.

In many ways this is a Buff to Barbarian alongside a bug fix (multiple rolls per round fix), as it allows Barbs to not have gear for Intimidate.

Also now means that intimidate on gear is officially a Fluff RP skill, alongside Persuade/Bluff


 
      
Maverick00053
 
PostPosted: Sun, Mar 12 2017, 5:22 AM 

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33/3 (base intim) + 16/2 (Barb levels) + 8 (CON mod, after gear) = 27 actually. That is a will save too which are always low on everyone.

This was about rewarding people who don't just dump for 15-16 barbarian for the rage as well.

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lilmarcat
 
PostPosted: Sun, Mar 12 2017, 5:31 AM 



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Missed the sneaky /3 on the Base intim :oops:


 
      
TormakSaber
 
PostPosted: Sun, Mar 12 2017, 5:34 AM 

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Your standard 24/4/2 will have 11+12+8 which is DC 31. Epic Intimidate will make that 34. An Epic Necromancer with 40 int (so 15 stat mod) will have a DC 10+15+4+6 = 35 Fear. Keep in mind the Wizard here has 15 in the stat mod and the Barbarian has 8, so this could easily be much higher with more barbarian levels or more CON.

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Maverick00053
 
PostPosted: Sun, Mar 12 2017, 5:48 AM 

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If someone fails the fear aura it still is effectively an insta death, keep that in mind.

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LunarBloom
 
PostPosted: Sun, Mar 12 2017, 14:29 PM 

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Nobody will take Epic Skill Focus intimidate for something that will be Mindblanked 99% of the time. Plus, the aura gives fear immunity temporarily. So if someone fails their check while Mindblanked, a dispel will be useless.

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Broldi
 
PostPosted: Sun, Mar 12 2017, 15:04 PM 

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lilmarcat wrote:
The DC is still quite high actually. The temp immunity however is the much welcome bit, as it prevents multiple rolls in one round.
Maurice actually went of his way most of the time to not even use Terro-rage.
His DC which was like ~40 before will now be around

33 (base intim) + 16/2 (Barb levels) + 8 (CON mod, after gear) = 49.

In many ways this is a Buff to Barbarian alongside a bug fix (multiple rolls per round fix), as it allows Barbs to not have gear for Intimidate.

Also now means that intimidate on gear is officially a Fluff RP skill, alongside Persuade/Bluff


Most of my wins weren't fear based. These fear changes lowered the cap but really Maurice never ever had higher than 32 intimidate. Still destroyed will saves because no one aims for will on Amia. Barbarians rarely geared toward intimidate for this any way. Only reason to boost intimidate was to fear mobs. Which 9/10 times was pointless.

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TormakSaber
 
PostPosted: Sun, Mar 12 2017, 19:53 PM 

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LunarBloom wrote:
Nobody will take Epic Skill Focus intimidate for something that will be Mindblanked 99% of the time. Plus, the aura gives fear immunity temporarily. So if someone fails their check while Mindblanked, a dispel will be useless.


Weird that people still take Epic focus Necromancy, Epic Focus Illusion and Epic Focus Enchantment then even though freedom, mindblank, and death ward stop all those.

Weird that people still take Dev Crit when Knight Commander Unrelenting Charge makes you immune to the effects.

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LunarBloom
 
PostPosted: Sun, Mar 12 2017, 22:38 PM 

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TormakSaber wrote:
LunarBloom wrote:
Nobody will take Epic Skill Focus intimidate for something that will be Mindblanked 99% of the time. Plus, the aura gives fear immunity temporarily. So if someone fails their check while Mindblanked, a dispel will be useless.


Weird that people still take Epic focus Necromancy, Epic Focus Illusion and Epic Focus Enchantment then even though freedom, mindblank, and death ward stop all those.

Weird that people still take Dev Crit when Knight Commander Unrelenting Charge makes you immune to the effects.


Casters have dispels.

Dev Crit is checked on auto-attack, giving you an infinite use of it.

You know that well, don't play dumb.

Plus, Terrifying Rage and ESF: Intimidate is 2 feats for a not-so-useful effect. Overwhelming + Devasting crits don't need activation, they just need you to swing your 4-5 attacks per round.

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Commie
 
PostPosted: Sun, Mar 12 2017, 23:21 PM 

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you can dispel and move and in the old system force 3/4 fear checks before someone could even drink a mind-blank as it was aura/movement based.

a wizard or whatever has to dispel and then cast again, which takes actions (unlike buggy nwn movement) and can be interrupted.

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TormakSaber
 
PostPosted: Sun, Mar 12 2017, 23:24 PM 

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Quote:
Plus, Terrifying Rage and ESF: Intimidate is 2 feats for a not-so-useful effect


Instantly winning your fights isn't a useful effect? News to me.

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LunarBloom
 
PostPosted: Sun, Mar 12 2017, 23:30 PM 

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I have no issue with the fear immunity part; the problem is that you need a -huge- commitment for nearly no benefit. Terrifying rage is barely ever used by those whom take the feat, anyways. Although, it's a bit exagerating the situation to make plural the number of people using the feat as Broldi's focus hasn't been on Maurice lately, making this number almost less than one active terri-rage player.

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Commie
 
PostPosted: Sun, Mar 12 2017, 23:40 PM 

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LunarBloom wrote:
I have no issue with the fear immunity part; the problem is that you need a -huge- commitment for nearly no benefit. Terrifying rage is barely ever used by those whom take the feat, anyways. Although, it's a bit exagerating the situation to make plural the number of people using the feat as Broldi's focus hasn't been on Maurice lately, making this number almost less than one active terri-rage player.


the reason none of us 'pvp'ers used it was because it was so ass busted it was degenerate. so we just sort of all agreed to not use it until it got fixed.

now you might start seeing it again.

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TormakSaber
 
PostPosted: Mon, Mar 13 2017, 0:12 AM 

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LunarBloom wrote:
I have no issue with the fear immunity part; the problem is that you need a -huge- commitment for nearly no benefit. Terrifying rage is barely ever used by those whom take the feat, anyways. Although, it's a bit exagerating the situation to make plural the number of people using the feat as Broldi's focus hasn't been on Maurice lately, making this number almost less than one active terri-rage player.


I think you use it every single time you rage, actually. Automatically, even. It's a commitment of one skill you already need to get the feat in the first place, and the benefit is instantly winning the fight. I'm not quite sure you understand how Terrifying rage works/worked. If you failed the save, the fight was over, and you could proc it as many times as you could wiggle an aura's boundary over someone.

Dev Crit and Epic Dodge are bigger commitments than Terrifying Rage.

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Mushidoz
 
PostPosted: Mon, Mar 13 2017, 13:19 PM 

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Might I suggest the fear aura (of a dragon, for example) could also follow the same "Immunity if successful check" rule?

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Commie
 
PostPosted: Mon, Mar 13 2017, 15:07 PM 

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Mushidoz wrote:
Might I suggest the fear aura (of a dragon, for example) could also follow the same "Immunity if successful check" rule?


I would like that as well.

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