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The Little Dragon
 
PostPosted: Mon, Jul 10 2017, 6:22 AM 



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After some thought, I believe the only thing that would make rogues great again if you either made the entire server where you can only take a base class and one prestige class. It would also fix a lot of other balance issues as well.

edit: it would also help make it so we can tone down the mobs a bit so everyone does not have to powerbuild to get to 30.

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CratzBlade113
 
PostPosted: Mon, Jul 10 2017, 8:01 AM 

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That will never happen. And you don't need to powerbuild to get to 30.

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Amarice-Elaraliel
 
PostPosted: Mon, Jul 10 2017, 11:02 AM 

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Yea changing the classes to max 2 would mean to rebalance the entire server and rebuild almost every existing character. Not happening.

For easier leveling we removed the group cap, the level cap of max 5 levels apart, raised the job system xp, etc. Also removed the cross class penalties.

You don't need a power build to level with all these changes.

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Mushidoz
 
PostPosted: Mon, Jul 10 2017, 19:16 PM 

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I am disappointed :(

I was expecting to read some interesting suggestions / ideas that would reward pure rogue or heavy rogue investment a bit. Whether they were needed or not, I was eager to read what people had in mind or what argument they were going to bring forward. Instead we have this impossible suggestion :(

Let me highjack this thread a bit and see if it can be made useful...

1 ) Do you think heavy investment rogue should receive some love?

2 ) What do you think could be improved to make heavy rogue investment worth doing?

--

Personally, I think that like most core classes, there isn't much incentive to dive into them heavily (with obvious exceptions). Rogue is one of the classes that receive quite a bit from heavy investment (compared to other classes), but despite that still doesn't justify the investment because of how some multiclassing / prestige classes just add more than rogue itself. This is especially true considering that many of the benefits obtained by heavy rogue investment are nulled by immunity to critical hits (or sneak attacks) and the poor AB progression of the class.

* In order to improve heavy rogue investment, without suggesting something that is irrealistic in its application, I think having a special skill for heavy rogues to bypass sneak immunity / crit immunity could be cool.

* Making it so that a certain level of sneak attack passively increase attack bonus when making sneak could also be interesting.

* Changing some of the rogue class feats to make them sought after (instead of insta-skip) could also be an option. Opportunist comes to mind here, as everything and their mother is more or less immune to attacks of opportunity anyway. Skill mastery isn't great either (in most cases).


Would the "need" for these changes justify the time to invest to script them though? Probably not...

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That Guy
 
PostPosted: Mon, Jul 10 2017, 21:10 PM 



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Just my opinion but... rogue doesn't need anything.

They get tons of skills 3/4 AB, sneak attack, Improved Evasion, as well as some other super cool abilities at epic levels. They are probably the example all core classes should be really, there IS reason to go past 3, 4, 5 levels even past 10 levels.

Fighter on the other hand... meh.


 
      
TormakSaber
 
PostPosted: Mon, Jul 10 2017, 21:13 PM 

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Rogue forms the basis of one of the strongest melee builds in the game, has bonus feat access pre epic to improved evasion and cripplnig strike, and epic bonus feat access to the same plus a few others on the rogue feat list, including Epic Dodge. It has the most skill points, and access to the second strongest list of skills in the game (first place is bard).

You don't need to powerbuild to get to 30. Most content on Amia is generally designed with an average build in mind - but with the assumption that at some point you seek out friends to help you do the content.

The rest of the post is simply untenable. The amount of reworking to the entire server you would need to do to put your suggestion into practice, even if it were a good one, is immeasurable, and that makes it something that can't seriously be considered.

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robbi320
 
PostPosted: Mon, Jul 10 2017, 22:21 PM 



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Also, and I feel like I've been pointing this out way too often, we are, as a server, pretty much at the point where we are losing more people than we are gaining. Making drastic changes that change the whole face of the server will lose us a lot of people. If I only had two classes, I wouldn't play here. It ruins diverstity in my opinion. I'd have to play Bard/DD or Sorc/DD. We all know it would be Bard/DD, so no way to give myself some extra flavor by going with maybe Barbarian, I can't really get Assassin to work well either, probably going for rogue/Ass or Ftr/Ass, which both isn't really ideal. The list goes on.

I mean, yes, it makes rogues stronger, but it reduces diversity so much.

So, in general, drastic changes like that will, in many cases, lose us the players we currently have, and not gain us too many, simply because NWN has such a limited playerbase anyway.

The powerbuild aspect, like Tormak said, it's assumed that you look for a party to get to 30. Alternatively, my experience shows me that getting to 30 is also really easy if you go for DM events, as you can usually get at least one level per event, just from mobs, xp at the end, and, if really neccessary, burning the DC reward.
Powerbuilding can help you level though, simply because you are stronger. Certain powerbuilds can solo to 30, whereas 'normal builds' tend to not be able to do that. But epic bosses are the same. Certain powerbuilds manage all, (or almost all) and certain ones struggle with a few, and a few builds can't do any bosses.

There are simply a few things that come close to powerbuilding that is assumed. It is pretty much assumed that you get the 6 tumble AC, for example.


 
      
Yin
 
PostPosted: Tue, Jul 11 2017, 0:31 AM 

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It would be nice to add epic precision feat from NWN2 though, which will improve rogues combat abilities, especially against high-level Amia content greatly.

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MisterLich
 
PostPosted: Tue, Jul 11 2017, 5:13 AM 

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Rogue is great and doesn't need a sneak attack buff.

Seriously, I'm not sure what this whole "rogues need help" thing is coming from, rogues and their prestige classes and multiclass builds are some of the strongest in the game.

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Budly
 
PostPosted: Tue, Jul 11 2017, 11:37 AM 

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I think that is a great idea.

Also considering rogues need to sneak attack while a fighter just runs up and hits everyting for a 100 HP and upwards and mages are mages, I think rogue is a bit lack luster.

"Not powerbuilding" is also something that can be discussed. Most events tend to have extremely powerful monsters and dungeons are super hard on higher levels. I know, I had a poorly built rogue/ranger. I have a hard time seeing what an "average build" is. When an NPC hostile mob starts to hit for a 100 HP, you are in territory of needing extreme AC or die.

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robbi320
 
PostPosted: Tue, Jul 11 2017, 16:19 PM 



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I'm going to stay out of the rogue discussion itself, since I have no idea.

The powerbuilding discussion... Well, there simply is one problem. (and I'm sorry I'm always answering you, Budly, lol)
Imagine monsters were balanced around non-powerbuilders. A group of powerbuilders would stomp through everything even more extreme than they do now. Hell, I kind of feel events are a tad too easy already, and that's my experience from participating in events at level 25 or lower, in many cases. On the other hand, I think DM events should (and are) balanced for the party that is doing them. I'ven never seen a DM event where the group simply could not manage, like 'sorry, you're too bad, build better next time'.


 
      
Raua
 
PostPosted: Tue, Jul 11 2017, 16:30 PM 

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I couldnt disagree more, rogue is probably the most versitile class in the entirety of this game. Epic Dodge is an amazing feat which you can essily get as a heavy rogue, and the skills it has makes it easy to become things like shadowdancers, assassins, or even Blackguards. Evasion, tumble, and UMD make it indespensible.

I think Yin's idea is actually pretty nice. It seems pretty reasonable if given proper prerequisites. (Maybe 10d6 Sneak Attack, or 11+ Assassin, and 16+ INT?) I could totally get behind something along those lines

Really, all builds have their stengths and weaknesses and require different styles of play, as well as skill level, when it comes to using them properly. Put a dev critting fighter up against a msge? Who wins? Well, depends on if the mage knows how to use their build. Even pureclassed casters can outperform some crazy powerbuilds. Furthermore, some people actually want a strong character build because it fits their character concept. 'My PC was an ex pirate of minor renown and fear' -well, maybe give that dog teeth to back up its bark? Ive had several PC sover the years of varying builds. In fact, some of the characters I've mained over the years have -terrrrrrrrible- builds. But they werent meant to be combatants, and i knew that full well.

Anyways, just my 2cents

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Budly
 
PostPosted: Tue, Jul 11 2017, 16:38 PM 

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Guess it is perfectly fine then, that rogues get "Lots of skill" that they can barely max out anyway with the lack of points if they need a good build...and maxed tumble just for the AC. And the Sneak Attack only works if you ambush/flank/similar or strike from stealth and then you have to hope you do not roll low or meet those immune to sneak attack when a fighter with dev crit just do 100-200 dmg per hit. Also being the most acrobatic melee class even in the heaviest armour!

It is not impossible to play on Amia without a combatant, but there is no room in most events for a non combatant.

I also really hope you people do not mix upp Assassin and Shadow Dancer with Rogue, it is not the same. Just cause they float into rogue good do not mean the sneak attack makes up for not having the melee damage of a warrior or the ranged of a caster.

Go make a lvl 30 rogue focusing on the trades of the "class", Open locks, craft trap and use them so on. It be one hell of a useless class and there be 0 time to put up traps when you have 15 people in an event. The Rogueish part of the rogue is gone. They are more a core combatant with focus on tumble, UMC and then slapping on more combative classes or better offensive prestige classes.

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That Guy
 
PostPosted: Tue, Jul 11 2017, 16:45 PM 



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I know a guy who had 6 ftr/24 rogue and solo'd all the bosses on Amia, with ease.

In fact, I bet it could be done with a pure rogue too. To say they don't get enough skill points? Budly, they get the MOST skill points of any class. A well build rogue, even a pure 30 rogue would be totally capable on Amia. Yes, sneak only works when you're not facing the opponent. Well guess what? Crits don't work every time either, lots of things are immune.

Also, one thing straight, most fighters aren't critting for 100-200 points, that's weaponmasters, just as we don't want to add SD and assassin to rogue, don't add WM to fighter. And, in that vein, Dev Crit doesn't add to damage... different thing. A pure fighter might do 100-120 absolute max on a crit, depending on weapon of course.

Here's the thing, some amount of multiclassing is a good thing, not powerbuilding. I mean, even Budly was a ranger/rogue, that's multiclassing, and you probably did it to get things both classes offer, that's what it's for.

Rogue is simply amazing, there is no need to "fix" it.


 
      
Budly
 
PostPosted: Tue, Jul 11 2017, 16:55 PM 

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That is a lot of damage from a fighter non the less. Even if I was wrong on the WM parts.

There is SO many skills, you cannot be decent in them all.

You want to know why Budly is a ranger? He became a pupil in game. I prefer to have a reason behind my class choices in game. That is just how I view things.

I do not really think the rogue is that amazing, especially not since I cannot play it the way I want to be effective. Doing the treasure hunter rogue with high lore and focus on other skills will just wreck you and make you uselss in events and dungeon runs. There is no pay for not going a effective combat build. But that is my opinion only, I leave it at that since I am not the most apt at building.

Seeing the amounts of destruction fighters and caster spread, it makes one feel rather useless and filler. Never seen a rogue do anything remotely close. Some classes in NWN is just not as good but then I do not really think a perfect balance can be achieve or should be, it makes the game bit to boring. It is not a competitive arena fighter game.

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That Guy
 
PostPosted: Tue, Jul 11 2017, 17:06 PM 



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Okay, Budly... a pure 30 rogue can get 330 skill points with just 14 INT, have an AB of 44 unbuffed, get 61 AC with epic gear. They can do up to about 30 points per hit, and that means 60 on a critical. 15D6 sneak attacks means up to 90 more damage. With KD, aid, bless, and haste potions... umm, they're attacking 4x per round with very hard to hit AC and epic dodge, have crippling strike, so they drain STR with sneaks, can KD their opponents, are up in the sweet range for AB, and can use all the fancy arrows and traps we have ingame too.

Yes, they can be that good.

Will they take a well build WM in a head on fight? Dunno... but that's not how they are designed to fight.

Will a mage wipe the florr with them? Possibly, but again, not how they're designed.

Let that rogue sneak up on either of those, KD them and sneak the crap out of them? The fighter will lose so much STR as to not hit the rogue anymore, and the mage will be dead.

Everything is situational. Fighters are good without preparation, mages suck without it. Prepare either? Yeah, it gets dicey. That's how D&D works.

As for choosing your classes via rp? Go for it. Lots do it. There's nothing wrong with that. However, as with anything, don't roleplay being the big bad if you're really not. Not saying you do that, you don't. I've seen it though, people would make an obvious sub-par build and proclaim they are the new badass in town. If you can't back it up, no, you're not. There are so many ways to play this game, don't let the relative power of your build be the deciding factor in how much fun you have. Every build has strengths and weaknesses, learn them and use your strengths while avoiding your weak points.

Above all, enjoy it.


 
      
Budly
 
PostPosted: Tue, Jul 11 2017, 17:20 PM 

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That Guy wrote:
Okay, Budly... a pure 30 rogue can get 330 skill points with just 14 INT, have an AB of 44 unbuffed, get 61 AC with epic gear. They can do up to about 30 points per hit, and that means 60 on a critical. 15D6 sneak attacks means up to 90 more damage. With KD, aid, bless, and haste potions... umm, they're attacking 4x per round with very hard to hit AC and epic dodge, have crippling strike, so they drain STR with sneaks, can KD their opponents, are up in the sweet range for AB, and can use all the fancy arrows and traps we have ingame too.

Yes, they can be that good.

Will they take a well build WM in a head on fight? Dunno... but that's not how they are designed to fight.

Will a mage wipe the florr with them? Possibly, but again, not how they're designed.

Let that rogue sneak up on either of those, KD them and sneak the crap out of them? The fighter will lose so much STR as to not hit the rogue anymore, and the mage will be dead.

Everything is situational. Fighters are good without preparation, mages suck without it. Prepare either? Yeah, it gets dicey. That's how D&D works.

As for choosing your classes via rp? Go for it. Lots do it. There's nothing wrong with that. However, as with anything, don't roleplay being the big bad if you're really not. Not saying you do that, you don't. I've seen it though, people would make an obvious sub-par build and proclaim they are the new badass in town. If you can't back it up, no, you're not. There are so many ways to play this game, don't let the relative power of your build be the deciding factor in how much fun you have. Every build has strengths and weaknesses, learn them and use your strengths while avoiding your weak points.

Above all, enjoy it.


I am not going to keep arguing my point since im subpar at building.

But I will say, NWN is really really really bad at portraying the big bad evil with a mastermind. Perhaps not a good fighter or the best wizard or sorceress but the one who can rally evil to them or good if you are evil, and keep sending minions and outsmarting the enemy all the time with elaborate plans. This is also a way to play the rogue, the trapmaster, the trickster, Especially if you add one of the prestige classes. But you can simple not RP this since Big bad Blackguardus or Paladin Mceatdragonsfordesert will just bum rush and crush a skull or just go to mechanics and smash that rogue to hell.

Not all villians in fiction or real life, is the best at killing but the best at manipulation and leadership, tactical masterminds and so on. Not all Rogues are up in the face but use the cunning of a rogue. NWN is really bad at portraying this, but I guess it is part of DnD that you are not really meant to think when it come to outdoing your foe, just smash things and loot dungeons.

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That Guy
 
PostPosted: Tue, Jul 11 2017, 17:22 PM 



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All that is called roleplay, it doesn't take a powerbuild to rp what you describe. That's simply being a character that can rally people to do their bidding, no powerbuild needed.


 
      
Budly
 
PostPosted: Tue, Jul 11 2017, 17:28 PM 

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That Guy wrote:
All that is called roleplay, it doesn't take a powerbuild to rp what you describe. That's simply being a character that can rally people to do their bidding, no powerbuild needed.


Often you need a powerbuild to protect said position. I think most faction leaders on Amia can back up their position with brute force, I know Rosary can. :lol:

Either way, I leave the conversation! I have derailed it enough already :(

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Tetrik : Greed incarnate in a Duergar
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Raua
 
PostPosted: Tue, Jul 11 2017, 17:31 PM 

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That Guy wrote:
All that is called roleplay, it doesn't take a powerbuild to rp what you describe. That's simply being a character that can rally people to do their bidding, no powerbuild needed.

This. Lets return the discussion to 'how to make rogues better' rather than arguing about RPing classes, or loc the thread down, since not much is going in that direction

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robbi320
 
PostPosted: Tue, Jul 11 2017, 20:11 PM 



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I think what might be better (and would make leveling a tad easier, in certain levels) is removing the sneak immunity so many monsters have. Quite a few very high level mobs have sneak immunity, and make playing a dedicated sneaker much more difficult thant is already is. I think that in itself might make rogues a tab bit stronger. Or even in general making it a bit easier to do high content on sneakers.

My experience is a bit skewed from playing a sneaker with really low str and con, but my Assassin simply could not manage any epic boss, apart from the Braxat. Sneaks against bosses are very difficult to achieve, in my experience, and I'm not sure if that really is neccessary, since many straighforward meleers just run in and left-click the boss to death.


 
      
Yin
 
PostPosted: Tue, Jul 11 2017, 20:29 PM 

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Raua wrote:
I think Yin's idea is actually pretty nice. It seems pretty reasonable if given proper prerequisites. (Maybe 10d6 Sneak Attack, or 11+ Assassin, and 16+ INT?) I could totally get behind something along those lines


It has Crippling Strike as requirement, which automatically means you'll need either level 10 rogue, or level 14 assassin (on Amia), and have to spend one of the bonus feats to get it.

P.S. I can solo most bosses with my rogue/shadowdancer (except those made to be fought with certain classes, like beholder majesty, even though it's not impossible to deal with it too with some proper tactic), though, in PvP she hardly can do anything, due to her rather low AB and damage, especially in one on one fights (though, it's quite not easy to get her too due to HiPS).

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Kudark
 
PostPosted: Tue, Jul 11 2017, 20:40 PM 

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In my opinion, a heavy rogue that's invested in rogue skills, shouldn't be able to solo bosses anyway. You can't have it all, and that's one of the beauties of rogue. If you want to solo bosses with a rogue, you'll have to build for melee, and be less skilled. I also have to disagree that a rogue built for skills is useless on NWN/Amia, that's all in how you run your character, there's plenty of potential RP opportunities to be had, but I'll admit that I'd like to see more in-game mechanical use for skilled rogues. As a class though, rogue is just fine, and truly the most versatile class in the game.

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robbi320
 
PostPosted: Tue, Jul 11 2017, 20:48 PM 



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Well, which rogue skills do you get? Open Lock? Traps? Both I'v not seen much in DM events. The few traps there are get trampled almost immediately. Pickpocket? The social skills, that don't need to be acknowledged IC? Sneaking is one of the most useful skills to be honest, and many people manage to fit that in anyway. I've never found the need for so many skills, just because the rogue skills, while cool in RP, do very little in most scenarios.


 
      
That Guy
 
PostPosted: Tue, Jul 11 2017, 22:05 PM 



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Well, for DM events, possibly, but, it's amazing how different our Amian experiences are.


 
      
MisterLich
 
PostPosted: Wed, Jul 12 2017, 2:08 AM 

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This thread has gone all over the place.


The point of this thread was "Let's restrict multiclassing to one base class and one prestige class."

That was shot down by everybody.


I suggest making one thread per concrete idea here, i.e. "Let's increase sneak attack" or something, because quite frankly nobody wants to have to read a thread that contains 15 ideas just to understand what's being discussed, it's easier to have one thread where a single idea is discussed.

Let's keep everything in context so it's clear WTF we're talking about.

If someone wants to suggest a new addition to rogue then please make a thread dedicated to discussing that one addition/change.

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CratzBlade113
 
PostPosted: Wed, Jul 12 2017, 7:53 AM 

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..Except that the thread is literally labeled 'Improving Rogues.' Telling people to make a new thread about rogues when there's already this thread about rogues is stupid.

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MisterLich
 
PostPosted: Wed, Jul 12 2017, 10:55 AM 

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I'm just saying, this thread started as a single idea.


The idea was refuted.


The title is irrelevant, the thread was made for a specific idea that is now void.

There are now many new ideas that all could have their own discussion threads here, and all require discussions of balance really, and they're all jumbled up in this one-sentence thread that makes no sense.

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Gravemaskin
 
PostPosted: Wed, Jul 12 2017, 15:43 PM 

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As someone who made a pure rogue (30), I have to admit that he performed above expectations.
Especially if you know how to corner sneak properly. PvE on a pure rogue is difficult due to the nature of how sneak attacks work, but if you have people with you or scrolls then suddenly you're a humanoid sized cannon.

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That Guy
 
PostPosted: Wed, Jul 12 2017, 16:00 PM 



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As has been said, and the above comment by Gravy prove, each class has it's tricks and it's unique abilities. If you play them right, each class is amazing. Some are "easier" to play than others, but.... to each his own. For instance, I really can't play a caster. I mean, I don't personally have the knowledge to play a wizard for starters, but it's boring to me to just wiggle fingers and use summons. I LOVE swords and swordplay, so for me, to play a mage isn't such fun. However, I do like rogues and sneaks, and though the actual play is very different, I enjoy it.

That said, yes, it can be true that levelling parties don't like to stop and wait for traps and such, and they just tromp all over them if they are placed. Some do. I've seen others that were great, roleplayed through the entire thing, made me feel like my char meant something, even at low level.

I've also seen traps used in DM events. Heck, even faction run events that I've scheduled, we've used traps.

Amia and roleplay are what you make of it. Any class can make a great build if you know how to play it right. Will it be the most uber powerbuilt boss smasher of all time? Ehhh, maybe not. However, there's one thing about roleplay servers that is being forgotten here, "True power comes from how many will follow you, not how many you can kill yourself.".

In the end, I like the special sneak attach feat Yin suggested, but, other than that, rogues need exactly nothing. They are amazing as they are.


 
      
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