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robbi320
 
PostPosted: Thu, Apr 13 2017, 12:58 PM 



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Warning: very powerbuild intensive, since that is a part of this game.

I know this isn't something too important or relevant, and I know people hate dealing with the subrace system, but is there any chance to make tiefling a bit better at being tieflings?

I mean, if I look at tieflings, the first thing I see is 'Assassin'. Bonuses in int and dex, bluff, stuff like that. I know favoured class says rogue, but I've always seen Assassin a lot along the lines of an evil rogue.

But now, my thesis: Tieflings make some of the worst assassins.
Why? I'm assuming a build where you want to go to 18 Assassin, and as high AB as possible. Just for fun, let's try 6 fighter, 5 MS, and 18 Assassin. It's a build that can have some of the highest AB I can think of, save perhaps a WM. (and even then, outdoors, MS is the better choice)
Now, almost everyone will agree that a dexer needs Epic Dodge. And with the way PvP rules and PvE work, it's true. Even for an assassin.
Sadly, 18 Assassin can not get a tiefling Epic Dodge. At level you mert the requirements for Epic Dodge, but don't get another feat to take it.

Now, tiefling has two options: go for strength, which doesn't feel like a tiefling assassin to me, or go 10 rogue, SD or 9 Monk. 10 rogue decreases your AB, Monk locks you into Lawful, and SD, well, means you are an SD, having to play SD, and RP as an SD (and locks you into having to take another base class, for AB likely fighter)

To me, all of these are not really fun ways around it. The only builds I can make really effectively are 10R/18Ass/1F, 11M/18Ass (here, perhaps two levels of something could fit in, but it needs discipline) and 5F/6SD/18Ass. (5fighter can be exchanged for anything, but with little point)
Only other option would be not going for 18 Assassins, which frees up two levels. Even with that, 10R will not have four attacks, Monk could have all of their attacks (but again, restricted to lawful evil, and Kamas)

Perhaps someone might come up with a slightly more optimal build, but sadly, a dex assassin tiefling tends to be worse than a dex assassin human. Or even air genasi. Same stat changes, only no Level adjustment. (At least the wis barely affects you, as an assassin)


So, I've explained the problem in a pretty long text. What would I suggest to do against it? Remove the level agjustment. That solves all the problems. Then, on the other hand, it just becomes a better Air genasi. Since I'm not too good at balancing, my suggestions might be bad, but maybe something along the lines of: -2 in something, maybe wis (then it might shove the Ar genasi out of its niche though). But I have no idea what would be good, so... no idea.
I also see the problem of people playing the old tiefling, and building around that. I do not know how to do that, but I personally believe that tiefling really could do with losing its level adjustment. Or, perhaps there would be an incentive to not go for ED.

Akternate idea: An epic feat, for assassins, which does something awesome. Suggestions: Give straight AB, add +[x] to assassin DCs, things like that. Maybe even a technique that target will and ignores mind blank.

I don't know what exactly I would do, but I think tiefling fits the assassin class so well, but it's blocked by mechanical hurdles. Aasimar and paladin do not have this problem, as pally fits perfectly well, and has at least five levels left. (from 24 pally)


 
      
Commie
 
PostPosted: Thu, Apr 13 2017, 18:45 PM 

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tiefling/drow/ecl characters basically not being able to get epic dodge is one of the biggest arguments for 'powergaming,' really.

ecl on amia is downright broken. i'd say the whole thing was due for a revamp but it's so ingrained at this point i don't know if changing race stuff is even possible.

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Gribbo
 
PostPosted: Thu, Apr 13 2017, 21:44 PM 



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It is possible but not nearly as good as you would want it.


You either need 9 monk, 10 rogue or six sd before you hit epic, or one in epic before or at level 27. In most cases this means no fourth attack unless monk due to 15~ ab at twenty


Six ranger 5 sd assassin 18, 6 ranger ten assassin four sd pre epic into 1 sd 8 (banking your fifth SD level till 21 saves you a ab) assassin,spend your assassin fourteen on imp evasion and take epic dodge at 27.


It's not very good, having no hips on an sd is silly but it gets four attacks iirc.


Basically air genasi obliterates tieflings in most cases except when wis is wanted


 
      
MightNMagic
 
PostPosted: Fri, Apr 14 2017, 5:08 AM 

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Commie wrote:
tiefling/drow/ecl characters basically not being able to get epic dodge is one of the biggest arguments for 'powergaming,' really.

ecl on amia is downright broken. i'd say the whole thing was due for a revamp but it's so ingrained at this point i don't know if changing race stuff is even possible.


Disagree.

Oh don't get me wrong. I look at some races with ECL and very much (from a game design perspective) cannot even begin to fathom why they have ECL since they're mechanically garbage. But other races like drow, tiefling and aasimar on the other hand VERY much deserve it. What they offer and do are so aboveboard and powergamey if they had no ECL pretty much everyone who has been playing NWN long enough to get the basics of mechanics down would use those races exclusively and nothing else.

Why bother making a human thief when you have drow?! Every monk, now a svirfneblin! Aasimar paladins as far as the eye can seeee.

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Commie
 
PostPosted: Fri, Apr 14 2017, 6:37 AM 

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and thats why drow are garbage assassins?

the 2 ecl just locks them out of shit. drow rdd? no tumble dump. get fucked AC. drow assassin? no discipline dump or you give up murder.

the only builds that really work for them specifically don't require the 'late' feats. thats the only reason they work, and then those builds are obscene anyway, so all the ecl system really does is fuck over SOME kinds of builds but totally ignores others.

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TormakSaber
 
PostPosted: Fri, Apr 14 2017, 6:43 AM 

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He's saying if Drow could hit level 30 everything else would be pointless. He's right.

Really the screwup was making Earth and Air genasi +0 ECL, and I freely admit my own part in that screwup.

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Amarice-Elaraliel
 
PostPosted: Fri, Apr 14 2017, 8:20 AM 

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TBH, I cannot see us reallc touching the subraces much after all these years except for minor tweaks (which won't involve removing ECL).

The subrace system is a pain in the ass, and some of them should not really be there, like most human and elven subraces, because they mostly get "abused" for building means instead of for RP. Yes, tehre are exceptions to that, of course. But I see a lot of people trying for a new chara first considering what build they want, then picking the subrace and "story" based on that, not the other way around.

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robbi320
 
PostPosted: Fri, Apr 14 2017, 17:20 PM 



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I see the problem there. It jsut seems strange that certain races are robbed of their... racial identity, essentially, simply because ECL is a thing.

This is likely not going to be very liked, but would it be possible to find an alternate solution? I know the idea of being allowed to go to 30 if you stay within that races class archetype was thrown in a while back. (though it would be up to people (aka the DMs) to say whether tiefling assassin would be something like this)
I mean, hell, if I could swap a feat I would hae gotten earlier for Epic Dodge, I'd do that. Sadly, you are just completely locked out, due to stats that I could get from air genasi without ECL. The thing is just, I'd like to play a tiefling, and I don't even really care about the stats. If I could simply play human, or even play human and get my race changed to outsider, I'd do that. It would make that character technically a terrible race, because I'd lose one of the main bonuses a human has (the extra skill point), but at least I'd get around this annoying block called ECL. But because it is a subrace that is in the subrace system, I can't even go that route, as I could if I would, say, want to request a, I don't know... mind flayer.
If I could do that, and it would take to write a request, I'd do that. (at least as soon as my character roster is cleared up and I could play another PC without considering myself having fallen back in Alt-itis)

It seems like a strange argument to say 'something is bad, we shouldn't change something else'. I mean, just because certain parts are bad, and others are bad too, should be not change either?


 
      
Dark Immolation
 
PostPosted: Fri, Apr 14 2017, 17:59 PM 

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Said it before, will say it again. Treat ecl like levels of a class(I.E. +2 ecl gets +1 ab, saves, and some hp for missing 2 epic levels), then adjust feats and abilities to be attainable by a level 28 PC. You don't get additional feats as an ecl race--that's what your racial feats and junk make up for--but you can still attain any particular feat that you normally would as a level 30 PC (epic dodge, hellball, etc). Ecl breaks down in a setting with a hard level cap usually, but that is probably as good as we can remedy it without outright removing it.

Quote:
I see a lot of people trying for a new chara first considering what build they want, then picking the subrace and "story" based on that, not the other way around.


I'm an idealist in the sense I too think you should consider the character first, but that's unavoidable and I wouldn't fault people for it. "I want to play a X. This is a build for a good X. Alright, how would this person with this build come to exist in this world?". At least they're not making fair-skinned Chultans and Durpari.

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RaveN
 
PostPosted: Fri, Apr 14 2017, 18:53 PM 

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Tormak is right in saying "removing ECL" would make drow the de-facto powerbuild, and better than genasi. Consider though, that 39 SR sucks in the end game, especially in PvP. It should be higher, at least 40, and it would mathematically be, if they didn't get punted down to 28 levels. Either way, even if it was 41, the race would still be gimped objectively at 28. The problem is that people seem to think that lump sum of SR is worth 2 levels, and it's not. It never was. Taking it away would basically just turn them back into elves again, and that is not very flavorful. In the end, wood elves will always be far superior to any drow build, mechanically. Same kind of thing with tieflings. Sadly, too, drow's bonuses never collude into any useful class combination, and one of them is a post-creation intellect, which fails to give you the initial skill multiplier, so you end up losing a few skillpoints too.. :cry:

Pair all that with sun vulnerability/darkness abuse (if it still exists); And thus with irony, the strongest lore race we have available ends up being one the worst mechanically :mrgreen:

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Commie
 
PostPosted: Fri, Apr 14 2017, 18:59 PM 

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RaveN wrote:
Consider though, that 39 SR sucks in the end game, especially in PvP.



.... what? No!

It just makes you flat-immune to some things (fire giant king implosions for a good example) and gives anyone not speced into spell pen (lots of people!) a 50% ish chance for their spells to just not work. It also makes you pretty much immune to any 'spell on item' shit people fling at you.

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RaveN
 
PostPosted: Fri, Apr 14 2017, 19:01 PM 

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Commie wrote:
RaveN wrote:
Consider though, that 39 SR sucks in the end game, especially in PvP.



.... what? No!

It just makes you flat-immune to some things (fire giant king implosions for a good example) and gives anyone not speced into spell pen (lots of people!) a 50% ish chance for their spells to just not work. It also makes you pretty much immune to any 'spell on item' shit people fling at you.


Meh. :mrgreen: I maintain my stance. I don't think a level 24 without spell resistance needs help killing fire giants, let alone a finished 28 build. And really, spell pen is a pretty necessary talent, even as a HiPSing mage, or something with few feats to spare will find room for it, if they know what they're doing. And if you're not against a freak mage build, well, then you basically have no spell resistance against those. :mrgreen:

Not having the +1 AB/+1 Saves/+1/2 feats = gimp in my eyes, but eh, just like my opinion, yo. I don't find 39 SR to be much better than 32 SR you'd get on one power, against AI. It's equally "meh" and unreliable, and you know that going into any fight and be forced into other defensives anyways like spell mantle, if you actually needed to stay alive, making your SR pointless..

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Commie
 
PostPosted: Fri, Apr 14 2017, 19:08 PM 

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No, spell pen is not needed in the slightest, you can just use spells that ignore it. If you have them prepared.

Either way anything that forces your opponent to react to you is a net gain. If people are throwing 2 or 3 feats just to fight a drow to change their 50% into a 33% those are still real good odds.

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Amarice-Elaraliel
 
PostPosted: Fri, Apr 14 2017, 19:10 PM 

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Something like giving them +1 ab and +1 to saves is actually something that could be done without making things go boom in balance or would require half the server to rebuild (as I have said before)

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Commie
 
PostPosted: Fri, Apr 14 2017, 19:10 PM 

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i would rebuild for that

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robbi320
 
PostPosted: Fri, Apr 14 2017, 19:14 PM 



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What about that single feat, possibly instead of that?


 
      
RaveN
 
PostPosted: Fri, Apr 14 2017, 19:19 PM 

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Other things to consider: A feat at 28 is not equivalent to a feat taken at 30, the lesser one is far less elastic and useful. Not to be a Debbie downer, but I am very against inorganic feats as it enters the realm of using game memory to modify characters in a unnatural/illegal way that is kind of silly to keep track of or validate. I don't like the door that opens up for the future, either. That kind of change would better be served in a hak if at all.

That being said, I'm glad things are being put on the table. I'd still push for 2 more SR, as I believe they deserve it, as if they were allowed to 30, that's the amount they'd have. the AB/Saves would be a good start too.

Also, on the flip side, I think the penalty for being in the sun should be more punishing in that same spirit. I'm thinking -4 AB/Saves. As a long time player of drow, and having read DoTU many times; sunlight is not something you ever want to immerse yourself into as a drow. Some Ellistraen should have to work to get a feat to limit this penalty, to nothing if they desire. I would have no problem coding such a feat to be available for all if this was what was done. Said feat is a real feat in the source books, too.

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