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sera
 
PostPosted: Tue, May 23 2017, 18:25 PM 

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I'm sure this has been discussed before, but, I'll ask again anyway.

We spell out every detail of every spell, feat, ability etcetera EXCEPT summons. Why is this? It's part of planning a character and something the character could know (in an IC way, not absolute #'s of course).

Can't we get the specs? I don't know the difference between a wraith and a dread wraith, or what an amnizu bodyguard is like. And that's just two examples.

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Ulir
 
PostPosted: Wed, Jun 14 2017, 15:55 PM 

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I believe it's avoided in order to potentially prevent people from straying away from cool character concepts for instance, in order to grab the "best" summon/s. Prior to Geared Golem there was an overly strong divine'ish type golem that even necromancers used (rpwise the golem was a vanquisher of things that lived in unnatural and untimely ways or something like that. Point being a necromancer would hardly be able to justify using it, but did so for the power if I remember correctly).

While the word usually spreads when something is amazing in one way or the other, I don't think it's necessary with the exact stats. A brief description of the summons would be fine, plus maybe highlighting some of its major signature abilities. Like pointing out a dragon is scary (fear aura) can resist spells (spell resistance) and will tear its opponents to shreds (melee abilities).

The "Summon Creature" section touches upon the general abilites or each type of summons you're picking, although not detailed. Would be cool with a few more hints at certain summons abilities that isn't obvious (like undead and elementals being crit immune for instance as being the obvious ones).

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Last edited by Ulir on Wed, Jun 14 2017, 20:47 PM, edited 2 times in total.

 
      
That Guy
 
PostPosted: Wed, Jun 14 2017, 15:58 PM 



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I don't see why details can't be disclosed. I mean, every detail of every spell is given out. Every detail of every class, and ability... it seems oddly shady to NOT disclose those facts. Sure, people will choose for power, they do now, what are we saving them from?


 
      
Darkblade
 
PostPosted: Wed, Jun 14 2017, 18:24 PM 

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That Guy wrote:
I don't see why details can't be disclosed. I mean, every detail of every spell is given out. Every detail of every class, and ability... it seems oddly shady to NOT disclose those facts. Sure, people will choose for power, they do now, what are we saving them from?


From nothing i'm a big fan of making it public to
For the simple reason that players like myself that are around since forever know the stats while new players don't, and all the good reasons That Guy pointed out above.
That said cant you just pick your EMD summon now?

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Commie
 
PostPosted: Wed, Jun 14 2017, 21:31 PM 

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That Guy wrote:
I don't see why details can't be disclosed. I mean, every detail of every spell is given out. Every detail of every class, and ability... it seems oddly shady to NOT disclose those facts. Sure, people will choose for power, they do now, what are we saving them from?


The idea is that you pick what's rp appropriate.

What they don't tell you is some "rp choices" are hot garbage. Some familiars and animal companions specifically. Things so bad you may as well not have a class feature. Like I think the bear buddy has like 42ac and 500 hp. He just dies to everything.

Which is why stats should be made available.

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RaveN
 
PostPosted: Wed, Jun 14 2017, 21:33 PM 

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AFAIK, we don't post the stats somewhere verbosely hidden from you, and you have just as much access to see the stats as we do . . . .

When I look at Summon information I do not see more information here either? I don't know what exactly you're expecting.. you can just log in and try any summon and write it down if you want? Maybe even in this thread or the build forum, if you think it's that helpful.

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That Guy
 
PostPosted: Wed, Jun 14 2017, 21:36 PM 



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RaveN wrote:
AFAIK, we don't post the stats somewhere verbosely hidden from you, and you have just as much access to see the stats as we do . . . .


Wait... what? They aren't on our forums unless myself and many others missed it all these years. If you mean in D&D books... erm, we've altered them, haven't we?


 
      
That Guy
 
PostPosted: Wed, Jun 14 2017, 21:38 PM 



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Commie wrote:
That Guy wrote:
I don't see why details can't be disclosed. I mean, every detail of every spell is given out. Every detail of every class, and ability... it seems oddly shady to NOT disclose those facts. Sure, people will choose for power, they do now, what are we saving them from?


The idea is that you pick what's rp appropriate.

What they don't tell you is some "rp choices" are hot garbage. Some familiars and animal companions specifically. Things so bad you may as well not have a class feature. Like I think the bear buddy has like 42ac and 500 hp. He just dies to everything.

Which is why stats should be made available.


IF we're going to make it only what is rp appropriate, let's do away with all the fishing forums, the explanations of changes to spells and classes too... just choose what seems rp appropriate.

This leaving out of the stats is inconsistent with the rest of what we do. Why -not- have that information available?


 
      
That Guy
 
PostPosted: Wed, Jun 14 2017, 21:39 PM 



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Granted, this is less relevant now that you can change your EMD summon.... but, still. Full disclosure.


 
      
RaveN
 
PostPosted: Wed, Jun 14 2017, 21:40 PM 

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That Guy wrote:
This leaving out of the stats is inconsistent with the rest of what we do. Why -not- have that information available?

Quote:
When I look at Summon information I do not see more information here either? I don't know what exactly you're expecting.. you can just log in and try any summon and write it down if you want? Maybe even in this thread or the build forum, if you think it's that helpful.


I look @ all the summons and see no stats. Where are any stats posted? Why is this different? All of these summons, now including the epic ones are interchangable in-game. You can do whatever you want.

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That Guy
 
PostPosted: Wed, Jun 14 2017, 21:47 PM 



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RaveN wrote:
That Guy wrote:
This leaving out of the stats is inconsistent with the rest of what we do. Why -not- have that information available?

Quote:
When I look at Summon information I do not see more information here either? I don't know what exactly you're expecting.. you can just log in and try any summon and write it down if you want? Maybe even in this thread or the build forum, if you think it's that helpful.


I look @ all the summons and see no stats. Where are any stats posted? Why is this different? All of these summons, now including the epic ones are interchangable in-game. You can do whatever you want.


Nevermind, you've missed the point. We show stats for classes, spells, everything BUT summons.


 
      
RaveN
 
PostPosted: Wed, Jun 14 2017, 21:51 PM 

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Just saying, it's an absolutely monumental amount of hours of documentation you're asking for (at least 15-20, but more like 40+). It's not like our method of doing it is going to much quicker from how you might, as a player. Like I said - I don't think we don't do it on purpose. We simply have a forum full of bugs, and not enough people working on things that don't work, to document things that do.

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That Guy
 
PostPosted: Wed, Jun 14 2017, 21:54 PM 



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RaveN wrote:
Just saying, it's an absolutely monumental amount of hours of documentation you're asking for (at least 15-20, but more like 40+). It's not like our method of doing it is going to much quicker. Like I said - I don't think we don't do it on purpose. We simply have a forum full of bugs, and not enough people working on things that don't work, to document things that do.


That... is a very reasonable answer actually. No time. That I can appreciate.


 
      
robbi320
 
PostPosted: Wed, Jun 14 2017, 22:11 PM 



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Well, when players starting giving out those deatails on the forums, it was actively forbidden. That's what at least confuses me. It's always said, 'RP over stats'. But I just need to know the right people to get the stats my own way.

And people chose for stats so aften anyway. About a year or one and a half ago, almst everyone I met had the Construct EMD, because it was best.


 
      
RaveN
 
PostPosted: Wed, Jun 14 2017, 22:13 PM 

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Well I think it's safe to say that we've kind of moved on, as we now have the ability to change any Epic Summon on the fly, making that previous aversion to it, moot. Of course, the DM's word is worth more than mine on this, but I personally can't think of any reason it can't be documented today if someone puts in the effort. Keep in mind, any documentation will be old if balance changes happen, etc.

p.s. I am against documenting things you can find out IC/IG like items, etc , etc , but this is kind of a build thing so it's different.

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msheeler
 
PostPosted: Wed, Jun 14 2017, 23:03 PM 

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I don' recall us ever actively stopping or removing posts about summons and their stats. In fact, at one point, I think, I recommended that if people wanted to post them they could feel free to, I would just like to see it done in some sort of IC manner, as opposed to an OOC "lets do math so that I can gain 0.042677 DPR more."


 
      
bobofwestoregonusa
 
PostPosted: Thu, Jun 15 2017, 10:25 AM 

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tl;dr edit: Suggesting IC fixes to an OOC problem is not productive and only serves to hurt capstone summon builds like blackguard, death or repose domain clerics, and anyone else without a documented summon ability.

The problem with what you're recommending here is that you're asking them to post IC information about OOC mechanics like BAB and saving throws and creature abilities and feats. The only thing an IC post about different summon types will serve to do is to offer at best vague information about end-game mechanics that should frankly not be kept a secret in the case of classes like blackguard where it not only takes an epic feats but requires epic investment into a prestige class to take.

The shifter shapes are mechanically listed. I'm not sure why we can't do the same for the summons if there are people willing to commit time to it outside of the team. Saying "find out in game" is only a good excuse if you don't have to deal with the repercussions of basing an entire build on taking an epic summon and blackguard still very much has that problem.

Having this information be available to the public in documented form also allows for recommendations from the community at large to solve issues of balance. Because let's face it, some of us are bigger pvp monkeys and some of us care more about dungeon running and we've figured out which summons are basically show stoppers in which field by now and can try to help either tone down over powered summons or summons that just don't warrant a place on the same bar as the other summons.

Personally if we were allowed to gather this information ourselves and make it available on the forums I would see to collecting the information and organizing it so that players could have the details for their reference.

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msheeler
 
PostPosted: Thu, Jun 15 2017, 11:59 AM 

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I always opt for IC because that is my personal preference. I hate seeing people "math" their way through the game. In my opinion doing that takes away from the real purpose or this game. That, however, is just my opinion. Again I've never stopped anyone from posting this information and don't intend to.


Let me say this pretty bluntly. I'm not spending any time digging up the same information you can get and making a table for this, I have way to many other things to do.


 
      
Nalkanar
 
PostPosted: Thu, Jun 15 2017, 13:23 PM 

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So if players make spreadsheat, it wont be deleted? Since the basic stuff can be found out just by summoning them and using them. Sure, we'll miss thing like DR in gate good outsider, but hey, still good to know AB, AC and possible spells/auras/sr.

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msheeler
 
PostPosted: Thu, Jun 15 2017, 13:28 PM 

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Again, I am not aware of anyone from the DAM team saying that in the past. I certainly won't delete it. To me that would be the same as going through and deleting things from the build thread. I don't care for the thread because it equates to "mathing" your way through the game, but I certainly don't delete anything in there.

In short - I won't delete any thread or table with summon information on it.


 
      
bobofwestoregonusa
 
PostPosted: Thu, Jun 15 2017, 19:06 PM 

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It has been done before is why it is being asked now. Perhaps a verdict from the DM team as a whole would be helpful to clear up any confusion.

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