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Commie
 
PostPosted: Sun, May 28 2017, 9:33 AM 

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People of Amia,

May it be known among all good and free people of the isles of Amia that we stand upon the edge of a great darkness. The Commonwealth of Cordor, having allied itself with the corrupt and rapacious conclave of wizards known as the Arcanum, has sent soldiers forth from its walls under false pretenses. The dreadful truth is that the Cordorian forces currently present in Guldorand and the Lowlands Delta are the mere vanguard of an army of conquest which, under the guise of a legion of scouts and guardsmen, stands poised to force Cordorian rule upon innocent and unaggressive neighbors, in effort to replenish their dwindling coffers, sate their lust for power, and fulfill their leaders' delusions of grandeur. In order to cast aside the shroud of misdirection that conceals the actual purpose of Cordor’s military opportunism, let the truth at last be spoken aloud against their litany of lies. In order to expose and evidence the genuine goals of the Arcanum and its ally, let facts be submitted to a candid world:

•They have decided together to engage in coercive and brutal tactics, both military and economic, in seeking to forcibly annex the territories and economies of Wharftown, Guldorand, and the Lowlands Delta.

•They have asserted the inherent inferiority of all non-human races, and sought by murderous means to impose the absolute dominion of humanity over all races deemed unworthy of liberty.

•They have anointed their members as the sole arbiters and inheritors of all arcane craft in the region of Amia, and sought by murderous means to enact their absolute dominion over the Weave.

•They have engaged in acts of sabotage and murder against the guild of the Monolith of Mystra, resulting in its destruction and the loss of many innocent lives.

•They have plied insidious arcane mental influence upon the populace of Cordor, in order to artificially dictate public sentiment and suppress all voices of dissent and criticism.

•They have abducted, imprisoned, and subjected to savage and prolonged torture the Duke Montgomery d’Cordor and the bard Yossarin, committed many acts of murderous brutality against their own citizenry, and committed conspiracy against and overthrow of the just and lawful d’Cordor government.

May it be known among the good and free people of Amia that under the leadership of the Arcanum, the forces of Cordor pose an imminent and dire threat to all non-human settlements, to all peaceable and prosperous tradesfolk, to all independent practitioners of arcane craft, to all free peoples within the reach of their blades, and to all folk of honor who would stand in stalwart defiance of tyranny and brutality.

May it be known among the oppressed and exploited citizenry of Cordor that any with the courage to throw off the chains of their overlords and speak out in defense of liberty and justice will not stand alone.

May it be known among the schemers of the Arcanum that no longer shall Amia remain ignorant of unwarranted aggression, no longer shall the voices of truth be shouted down by mass-distributed lies, no longer shall the opponents of treacherous imperialism be scattered in discord and disunity, no longer shall the champions of light stand idle as darkness scowls northward with hungry eye.

May it be known among gods and kings that the good and free people of Amia do hereby to these words solemnly pledge our sacred honor.

We call upon Cordor to expel the Arcanum from their positions of power. We call upon them to expel the corruption that is crippling and strangling their government and by extension, the innocent peoples of the city. Members of the Treaty of Light will remain a bastion of hope against the darkness that desires to spread and create rot. We stand united for this cause and will undo the evil we stand against.

So we swear,

*Multiple Signatures follow: The Elven Council of Winya Ravana, Kohlingen's Council, Copper Industries, The Eilistraeen Shrine, Barak Runedar's High Councilor, and Wharftown's Mayor Garth. Most prominently, the Justicar of Kohlingen.



Since 2013, an agreement between all cities on amia, one made to fight against the Arcanum, has been used as justification to prevent any and all city-state infighting full stop. Once rival city-states are locked into a permanent alliance over a long-resolved war, and it's led to a stagnant (or 'carefully cultivated' if you ask some staff members) status quo on amia. There is no friction, and no chance of change.

Quote:
Masahiro Morioka; Painless Civilization

A civilization without pain and suffering seems to be the ideal of the human race. However, I wonder if people might end up with losing sight of joy, and forgetting the meaning of life, in a society pervaded by pain reduction mechanisms and filled with pleasure.

I first came up with the words “painless civilization” when I attended a lecture by a nurse working for one of the largest hospitals in Japan.

She talked about an aged female patient in the intensive care unit she was taking charge of. The patient had an injury in the brain. The patient was attached to monitors and given intravenous nutrition and drugs. The nurses gave sensitive care to the patient in the room in which the temperature was properly controlled. The patient’s condition was improved, and became steady, but the nurse had an unspeakable feeling during the care of the patient. [3/4] Every time when she dried the patient’s body with a towel, or changed the position of the patient in bed, the question came to her “What on earth are we doing?”

This is because although the patient did not have a clear consciousness, she was still alive in a state of peaceful sleep. Given proper medical treatment and nursing care, the patient kept sleeping deeply and peacefully. The patient would probably never wake up again. Given nutrition and drugs, and with her body kept clean by sensitive nursing care, the patient would keep sleeping pleasantly in the room in which the temperature was comfortably controlled.

A human being who keeps sleeping with a peaceful expression, wrapped in an perfectly controlled environment. No need to work. No need to study. No worries of life. Free from daily tasks. No pain, anxiety, or fear. All the patient does is just stay in a state of comfortable and peaceful sleep protected from all those worries.

The nurse said, “I wonder what contemporary civilization aims to create in the end might be the state of a human being like this.”


Aren’t the activities of contemporary civilization nothing but to create, on a social scale, this kind of human being sleeping peacefully in intensive care units? Isn’t contemporary civilization systematically trying to create humans, in the intensive care units named cities, the humans who look at first sight to be working cheerfully and playing merrily, but in fact just sleeping peacefully in the deep layer of their life? If that should be the case, then, who set the trap? Why has civilization progressed in this direction? [4/5]


I believe we arrived here, a world without actual conflict, and it's frightfully boring.

A war was going on, so everyone shacked up. The war is over. It's time for cities to break off so conflict can happen. One of the best examples of this was the last Cordor election, because it pitted two cities against one another in a PC driven plot.

Now even that is difficult, as elected positions have been removed, and PC ability to influence cities is all but gone, replaced with NPC's that do next to nothing.

I feel politics, and factions, on Amia island have hit a dangerous level of stagnation, simply because people, players, don't want struggle.

But struggle and the resulting change is what makes a 'living world' like this interesting. Not stagnation, not 'curated,' frozen borders and alliances.

When cities can just call upon the 'hand of god' and acquire 30 kohl silver dragons and 12 fell-drakes, and a shrine accosted can blow a whistle and gain 8 permanent dragon guards, it simply encourages that stagnation, it is an in-your-face reminder that the 'status quo' will be upheld at all costs.

It needs to go. Something has to happen to shake this up and make the city states independent again, instead of forming a nebulous blob of total co-dependence. Asking some players, Bendir Dale makes all the food on the island, Cordor does all the trade, and Winya and Kohl provide the army, and Wharftown does its best. The concept of separate locations with separate governments is not even a thought in the general amia consciousness anymore.

And it's led to a stagnation.

Something needs to happen to put some of these settlements at odds with one another. The Treaty of co-dependence needs to go. Cordor has a good army, but its broke. It should 'annex' something to get funds going, putting it at odds for being suddenly expansionist on an island. Wharftown should push up the coast, start claiming territory just past Green Lake, putting the two at odds. The Grove could push into the Beastman Area, blaming Winya for allowing gnolls to ravage that part of their border and not stepping in, and they've had enough.

I could be wrong, I just prefer to play in a 'living' and 'evolving' world, rather then a fixed one where a piece of paper signed due to a current and immanent threat is still held up 5 years after it was signed and the threat eliminated.

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Last edited by Commie on Mon, May 29 2017, 3:50 AM, edited 2 times in total.

 
      
TormakSaber
 
PostPosted: Sun, May 28 2017, 9:35 AM 

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wharftown shouldn't expand, don't talk about wharftown like you know it

edit:

PS: takruul should have let cordor die, should have blown up kohl in the resulting confusion, cordor should have been essentially erased from the map save as a shanty town, bendir and kohl should have been burgeoning with refugees and every single naval force in the area should have been catastrophically destroyed at the hands of fighting Amn, a city incredibly famous for its naval power.

None of these happened. That is an affront to respecting any sort of lore and development in the world, and a disrespect to the scope of the plot in the end.

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MisterLich
 
PostPosted: Sun, May 28 2017, 10:17 AM 

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What did I just read?

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Guardian
 
PostPosted: Sun, May 28 2017, 15:47 PM 

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TormakSaber wrote:
PS: takruul should have let cordor die, should have blown up kohl in the resulting confusion, cordor should have been essentially erased from the map save as a shanty town, bendir and kohl should have been burgeoning with refugees and every single naval force in the area should have been catastrophically destroyed at the hands of fighting Amn, a city incredibly famous for its naval power.


Not my proudest fap... but damn, imagine it would happen.
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By the way - this is exactly how an end to a server-wide, long-time plot SHOULD look like. Massive, world-changing consequences.

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Commie
 
PostPosted: Sun, May 28 2017, 17:27 PM 

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MisterLich wrote:
What did I just read?


i had made a very long post about how all the cities are now static and unchanging, a state DM's have told me was deliberately cultivated (and I suspect it was stagnated deliberately). I linked the Treaty of Light as the cause, as it was an 'end-the-war' military-based agreement against a hostile force, that's since been used to quell any attempt at any inter-city conflict and should have had a shelf life. I mentioned how because of the ToL, Amia is essentially one government and all cities are a branch of that government, with Cordor acting as commerce, Bendir Dale making 'all the food' (still an extremely commonly held belief there has been zero effort to dispel as everyone still says it repeatedly), and Winya and Kohl acting as the military branch (with any dustup resulting in felldrakes everywhere, such as the shrine and bendir dale, and silver-dragons getting posted around, such as the merc camp (only just recently removed), the bridge, and also bendir dale). The Amia military is obscenely strong as well, try and fight a silver dragon or one of the felldrakes and you'll see what I mean. Now try and fight 8 at once (like at the shrine) and it's clear there will never be any conflict there, something done by design with the goal to prevent conflict.

I mentioned parts of "Painless Civilization: A Philosophical Critique of Desire," by Masahiro Morioka, which I felt was extremely applicable, as a world needs conflict, and mentioned ways we could get inter-city conflicts going again, mentioning how the last Cordor election was fantastic, and commenting that positions that used to be available to PC's to drive inter-city struggles or possibly put one city at odds with another in a meaningful way are just removed or occupied by NPC's now. I didn't mention Tarkuul at all.

Then I went into things that could happen to create some friction between what I see is an server-unhealthy permanent alliance. One of several mentioned Wharftown, saying they could push to expand, creating some issue with those along the coast. Tormak latched onto the wharftown mention specifically, and told me not to talk about it 'like i know it' and went on to talk about Tarkuul, which was never mentioned by me as it's utterly inert and has been rendered utterly irrelevant due to its ability to disrupt the 'cultivated' server city-state balance, which is something that will not be allowed to happen.

So yeah, I deleted it.

here's the exert in case you don't want to read that whole book i mentioned.

Quote:
A civilization without pain and suffering seems to be the ideal of the human race. However, I wonder if people might end up with losing sight of joy, and forgetting the meaning of life, in a society pervaded by pain reduction mechanisms and filled with pleasure.

I first came up with the words “painless civilization” when I attended a lecture by a nurse working for one of the largest hospitals in Japan.

She talked about an aged female patient in the intensive care unit she was taking charge of. The patient had an injury in the brain. The patient was attached to monitors and given intravenous nutrition and drugs. The nurses gave sensitive care to the patient in the room in which the temperature was properly controlled. The patient’s condition was improved, and became steady, but the nurse had an unspeakable feeling during the care of the patient. [3/4] Every time when she dried the patient’s body with a towel, or changed the position of the patient in bed, the question came to her “What on earth are we doing?”

This is because although the patient did not have a clear consciousness, she was still alive in a state of peaceful sleep. Given proper medical treatment and nursing care, the patient kept sleeping deeply and peacefully. The patient would probably never wake up again. Given nutrition and drugs, and with her body kept clean by sensitive nursing care, the patient would keep sleeping pleasantly in the room in which the temperature was comfortably controlled.

A human being who keeps sleeping with a peaceful expression, wrapped in an perfectly controlled environment. No need to work. No need to study. No worries of life. Free from daily tasks. No pain, anxiety, or fear. All the patient does is just stay in a state of comfortable and peaceful sleep protected from all those worries.

The nurse said, “I wonder what contemporary civilization aims to create in the end might be the state of a human being like this.”

Aren’t the activities of contemporary civilization nothing but to create, on a social scale, this kind of human being sleeping peacefully in intensive care units? Isn’t contemporary civilization systematically trying to create humans, in the intensive care units named cities, the humans who look at first sight to be working cheerfully and playing merrily, but in fact just sleeping peacefully in the deep layer of their life? If that should be the case, then, who set the trap? Why has civilization progressed in this direction? [4/5]


I already really regret making an effort to post it, but I might as well explain at least what it was I thought that could happen that would 'improve amia.'

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TormakSaber
 
PostPosted: Sun, May 28 2017, 20:18 PM 

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Quote:
Then I went into things that could happen to create some friction between what I see is an server-unhealthy permanent alliance. One of several mentioned Wharftown, saying they could push to expand, creating some issue with those along the coast. Tormak latched onto the wharftown mention specifically, and told me not to talk about it 'like i know it' and went on to talk about Tarkuul, which was never mentioned by me as it's utterly inert and has been rendered utterly irrelevant due to its ability to disrupt the 'cultivated' server city-state balance, which is something that will not be allowed to happen.


having one bad idea doesn't invalidate the rest of your post, so i'm not sure why you decided deleting the entire thing was necessary. you had a fit over it and you shouldn't have, because the post is good.

tarkuul was mentioned because the way it acted was specifically a symptom of the problem relating to the treaty of light, which is that a city that is normally an excellent driver for conflict and antagonistic actions was reduced to an 'anti-hero ally' in the course of the plot and remained so after the plot was over, something that was directly related to the treaty of light just becoming a permanent ongoing fixture rather than a temporary treaty. not to mention the direction for tarkuul in general which essentially removed its ability to perform as an antagonist - or conversely, set itself up with such power that by design were it to ever acquire, would have immediatly meant it should become the antagonist, but these design goals were discarded in favor of the current zeitgeist.

much of this also ties back to how the ending of the arcanum plot was handled, a plot that started off being run as a project of love and passion and was handed off to other DMs who did not know the plot and were not interested in the plot, handed off so the stated design intent was to 'kill' the plot, because the dms it was handed off to did not like it, the team did not like it, and the devs did not like it or the far reaching consequences it had. it became a posterchild for why long plots are bad (they're not) and was used as a reason for why they should not be done again. not to mention the head of the dev team at the time wanted to make cordor a "hub" because of the hub initiative, and so refused to correctly respect the lore that had been built in the server in favor of his own personal design scope and decisions, forcing the end of the plot to conclude in such a way that disrespected the 6 years that came before it along with the myriad of institutional biases and factions that existed.

The end of the Arcanum plot essentially spelled the end of "The original Amia", and ushered in the situation we have today - a situation whose blame does not really rest upon the DM team, despite the tone of this post, but rather on a bunch of combined factors - 90% of which no longer exist on this server, but whose collapsing weight has put the pressure on everyone else in such a manner that digging ourselves out has become such a concentrated effort and such a timesink that there are precious few left with the time, the motivation, and the ability to do so in a way that met our own standards. it's easy to see then why amia has become the way it has, as a collective result of all these factors from 2013 onwards.

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Commie
 
PostPosted: Sun, May 28 2017, 20:35 PM 

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Just not really wanting to talk about it in here. Really hesitated pushing the post button at all. Didn't want to cause a forum shit storm but knew it was gonna happen after your instant reply.

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Commie
 
PostPosted: Mon, May 29 2017, 3:52 AM 

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I put the post back. I don't want to talk about the Arcanum plot, so lets talk about things we can do going forward instead of possible mistakes in the past.

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The1Kobra
 
PostPosted: Mon, May 29 2017, 4:38 AM 

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Erm, just a few clarifications...

The Treaty of Light is essentially already gone. Winya left and in fact has done more damage to the treaty than anything else. Wharftown has also left. Barak Runedar has also all but left (by making greedy demands any time they're called upon), and the shrine went defunct.

Cordor and the rest of the isle are not allied either, and there's quite a lot of tension between them and Kohlingen due to Cordor refusing to recompense for all of their abuses during the time of the provisional government.

Cordor actually did lose it's naval force, so did Kohlingen. Both were significantly weakened after the war, though Cordor far more so. Cordor lost a great deal of it's economic power and the entire central district. Plus the West is essentially a state that has seceded from the rest of the place, so Cordor isn't even in control of itself much less anything outside it's borders.

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Commie
 
PostPosted: Mon, May 29 2017, 5:15 AM 

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this is a surprise to me as much of the recent WT ish involved the treaty specifically.

and around the benwick shrine as well, the name of the treaty was invoked several times, at least around my characters, and was invoked strongly as recently as the formain invasion which involed kohl and winya and bendir.

if this isn't the case that would be interesting. again either 90% of the playerbase is wrong (which is possible) and that needs to be addressed, or you're wrong and the ToL is still intact.

either way, treaty or no treaty, the peace is a pillow. comfy but can be used for suffocation.

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Commie
 
PostPosted: Mon, May 29 2017, 6:35 AM 

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The1Kobra wrote:
Erm, just a few clarifications...

The Treaty of Light is essentially already gone. Winya left and in fact has done more damage to the treaty than anything else. Wharftown has also left. Barak Runedar has also all but left (by making greedy demands any time they're called upon), and the shrine went defunct.

Cordor and the rest of the isle are not allied either, and there's quite a lot of tension between them and Kohlingen due to Cordor refusing to recompense for all of their abuses during the time of the provisional government.

Cordor actually did lose it's naval force, so did Kohlingen. Both were significantly weakened after the war, though Cordor far more so. Cordor lost a great deal of it's economic power and the entire central district. Plus the West is essentially a state that has seceded from the rest of the place, so Cordor isn't even in control of itself much less anything outside it's borders.


also do you have any source of any recent tensions? last I heard when miss de cordor married hector that was officially tying the cities together and an official bookend to any conflict that could have occurred between the two cities.

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TormakSaber
 
PostPosted: Mon, May 29 2017, 6:43 AM 

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Quote:
The Treaty of Light is essentially already gone. Winya left and in fact has done more damage to the treaty than anything else. Wharftown has also left. Barak Runedar has also all but left (by making greedy demands any time they're called upon), and the shrine went defunct.


incorrect by all accounts within the game which has all of these cities working in perfect tandem and unison on issues. the shrine is not defunct and is still guarded by drakes. anywhere else that needs it immediately has a combination force of dragons and silver dragons, despite the IC dissolution of the silver dragons by their commander after the arcanum.

Quote:
Cordor and the rest of the isle are not allied either, and there's quite a lot of tension between them and Kohlingen due to Cordor refusing to recompense for all of their abuses during the time of the provisional government.


incorrect, elections were abolished for reasons still not elaborated on and with the marriage between hector syglerand and lanie d'cordor any sort of tension on a political level is out the door. they are complete allies working together to ferret out criminal elements between them, this has been proven time and again.

Quote:
Cordor actually did lose it's naval force, so did Kohlingen. Both were significantly weakened after the war, though Cordor far more so. Cordor lost a great deal of it's economic power and the entire central district. Plus the West is essentially a state that has seceded from the rest of the place, so Cordor isn't even in control of itself much less anything outside it's borders.


incorrect, kohlingen came out with a full relatively untouched navy, something that was iterated to me both by dms and players in my time up top. cordor suffered no losses except half of one district and its entire wardebt was paid off by one PC. its economic power was not affected at all and east and west and south more than picked up any slack from the arcanum war. west has not seceded, per lutra's latest DM posts where west has reintegrated with the rest of cordor. cordor is in complete control of itself and its borders with no losses and has come out better for it, because the old government is gone with benevolent dictators for life in its place, despite at least three of them being strongly against any actions of that sort ICly.

cordor still maintaisn guard posts outside its own borders with complete success, as does kohlingen and winya.

i don't think you play on the same server the rest of us do, kobra.

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Richard_Edmund
 
PostPosted: Mon, May 29 2017, 6:54 AM 

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Not sure why they told you that because it was even posted in the dm event stories how Kohlingens navy was decimated by the mazticans.

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TormakSaber
 
PostPosted: Mon, May 29 2017, 6:58 AM 

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and yet, here we are in game, with statements made and supported by dm team members and high ranking players.

i'm aware of the post you're talking about, but if it truly happened, then the impact of it was clearly not understood, as kohligen has completely recovered and then some in the spawn of 2 years. i'm not going to even get into the logistics of reconstructing an entire war worthy navy, and finding soldiers for it, in that timespan.

kohlingen even having a strong navy in the first place goes against the entire place's ethos anyways. that it could stand up to amn, even with ruathym's help, was again a massive, incredible mistake, especially wih blood magic enahnced maztican backup.

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Richard_Edmund
 
PostPosted: Mon, May 29 2017, 7:12 AM 

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Well that's a pain in the ass.

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Lutra
 
PostPosted: Mon, May 29 2017, 8:47 AM 



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I think the thread is mixing up the Treaty of Light and the War Council for the most part.

As said above, Winya is no longer part of it. One is not even on Amia.

Dunno where that came from. The majority of the Kohl navy blew up along with some of us after someone decided that we cannot get flanked even when we were already flanked. The numbers of the remaining ships were both listed in the DM info threads and in the Kohl keep threads, along with the additions since 2014.

Kohl managed to make 1/year if the listed materials are provided + the ones that Wharftown made.

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Lutra
 
PostPosted: Mon, May 29 2017, 8:52 AM 



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TormakSaber wrote:
despite the IC dissolution of the silver dragons by their commander after the arcanum.


The Silver Dragon Guards are a separate branch for NPC guards that you can see IG as NPCs. The Silver Dragon Knights are the ones that were disbanded which was a PC-only branch. The Silver Dragon guards were not disbanded, only the knights. Later reformed as a different faction.

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Shadowfiend
 
PostPosted: Mon, May 29 2017, 10:26 AM 

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Whatever the facts are, Commie is right on the account that the good side is too comfy atm.

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bobofwestoregonusa
 
PostPosted: Mon, May 29 2017, 12:19 PM 

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Some facts about West Cordor:

1) West Cordor was always very anti non-human and anti rest-of-Cordor.

2) West Cordorians are violently anti Kohlingen and have rioted over it in the past. The riots killed hundreds of people.

3) Lannie is not a proper Cordorian. She maintains a duchal presence as some weird repairations package that my PC even voted against unless that changed. Her marrying Hector doesn't make Cordor-Kohlingen relations peachy. They just make Lannie-Hector relations peachy and probably only serve to make West Cordorians hate Hector even more than they already did.

4) Literally read literally any of the NPC dialogue in West Cordor to get an idea of the sentiments there. They do not like the Republic and they DEFINITELY do not like Lannie or Kohlingen.

West Cordor is a deeply hostile group of seperatist nationalists and any attempts to state otherwise are DM retcons. The fact that there wasn't a civil war in the midst of the Arcanum war was due to painstaking efforts made by involved players to prevent it because civil war would have meant the collapse of Cordor entirely.

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bobofwestoregonusa
 
PostPosted: Mon, May 29 2017, 12:51 PM 

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And I will be blunt about the Lannie thing. That should not have happened and the DM that ran it should not have run it. It was a direct conflict between their direct player side interest and showed zero understanding or willingness to understand precisely the situation of a post-war Cordor.

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Guardian
 
PostPosted: Mon, May 29 2017, 13:12 PM 

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Don't you feel like there's way too many old skeletons in the closet? Things that happened and should not have and vice versa?

Ideal solution would be dropping a literate nuke on the server. Not vault-wipe like, but Amn invasion like - except with way more burning towns, maybe some major NPCs deaths and more player involvement.

This way we could erase things that should not have happened and do things that should have happened.

Either that, or the more boring way, which would be having a DM team write up a long OOC article together on how IC things stands now. Set things straight. Because things as are now are more confusing than anything, and filled with maybes and I thinksies.

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Silkelock
 
PostPosted: Mon, May 29 2017, 13:56 PM 

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Guardian wrote:
Don't you feel like there's way too many old skeletons in the closet? Things that happened and should not have and vice versa?

I do happen to like my skeletons in the closet!

I do agree with commie on most of his points and Tormak has a good point with Tarkuul too.

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Gribbo
 
PostPosted: Mon, May 29 2017, 14:03 PM 



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Guardian wrote:
Don't you feel like there's way too many old skeletons in the closet? Things that happened and should not have and vice versa?

Ideal solution would be dropping a literate nuke on the server. Not vault-wipe like, but Amn invasion like - except with way more burning towns, maybe some major NPCs deaths and more player involvement.

This way we could erase things that should not have happened and do things that should have happened.

Either that, or the more boring way, which would be having a DM team write up a long OOC article together on how IC things stands now. Set things straight. Because things as are now are more confusing than anything, and filled with maybes and I thinksies.



I've been saying for about a year now that we need to crash tarkuul into kohl and make the remains into warzone between the remaining paladins and necromancer


 
      
robbi320
 
PostPosted: Mon, May 29 2017, 14:29 PM 



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Honestly? It'll kill Tarkuul, but Kohl? They basically have Wharftown, Cordor, quite a few places actially, where they could go. Especially current Cordor wpuld probably happily welcome them with open arms.


 
      
TormakSaber
 
PostPosted: Mon, May 29 2017, 14:40 PM 

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bobofwestoregonusa wrote:
Some facts about West Cordor:

1) West Cordor was always very anti non-human and anti rest-of-Cordor.

2) West Cordorians are violently anti Kohlingen and have rioted over it in the past. The riots killed hundreds of people.

3) Lannie is not a proper Cordorian. She maintains a duchal presence as some weird repairations package that my PC even voted against unless that changed. Her marrying Hector doesn't make Cordor-Kohlingen relations peachy. They just make Lannie-Hector relations peachy and probably only serve to make West Cordorians hate Hector even more than they already did.

4) Literally read literally any of the NPC dialogue in West Cordor to get an idea of the sentiments there. They do not like the Republic and they DEFINITELY do not like Lannie or Kohlingen.

West Cordor is a deeply hostile group of seperatist nationalists and any attempts to state otherwise are DM retcons. The fact that there wasn't a civil war in the midst of the Arcanum war was due to painstaking efforts made by involved players to prevent it because civil war would have meant the collapse of Cordor entirely.


Not "always" - this was largely a post 2012 sentiment. West used to be the district of hoity toity nobility, the cream of the crop of Cordor, and was on very good terms with Kohlingen for that reason. The criminal element all used to be in South Cordor, with Boss Miller, the Black Flag, and the like. That's why the Prison was established there, to give more of a guard presence.

Lanie is probably the model Cordorian - but of an era most of Cordor has been brainwashed into believing they no longer want, by both magical and non magical means over the course of a RL decade or so. She maintains a presence not as part of the duchy, but as a messenger to the people as a way of repairing relations between the Commonwealth, and the people who were literally murdered in their sleep and their homes and families stolen by the Commonwealth. Her marrying Hector was quite a big deal for Cordor and Kohl.

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bobofwestoregonusa
 
PostPosted: Mon, May 29 2017, 14:55 PM 

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Lannie's presence was literally voted on as a duchal return to Cordor, with her duchal forces intended to guard over her duchal lands in the supposed-to-now-be duchal festival grounds. Literally everything about Lannie is the duchy and her marriage to a paladin from Kohlingen signifies the marriage of some member of the duchy to a paladin from Kohlingen. Lannie returning to Cordor never should have been done in the first place because the DM involved was directly invested in the d'Cordor situation player side. The same DM literally also refused to DM for West Cordor because they didn't like the players of the time and we were forced to try to approach Mana for some manner of DM support but this was at the end of her career where she simply no longer had the energy or desire to be client side.

Essentially after Kobra left everything may as well have been retconned with how poorly it was handled following.

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Commie
 
PostPosted: Mon, May 29 2017, 17:39 PM 

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Allright so, I didn't want to argue about why things are this way and talk about stuff from 2015. Lets just discuss where we are going forward.

I think the cities of amia are way too close, and there's a lot of player misunderstanding on wtf is going on.

Some kind of thing happening to stress/break this buddy buddy ish up would solve most issues. Things like "who makes the food?" "who is allied with who?" could then be resolved via event/ic explanations from DM NPC's.

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Lutra
 
PostPosted: Mon, May 29 2017, 17:49 PM 



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Maybe certain events created certain more pan-Amian sentiments? See Ant Alarm as an example.

The Treaty of Light back in 2012 was nothing more than ratifying an already existing standing of certain cities or entities. And that standing was to guarantee Wharftown's independence from Cordor's threat of annexing it, aside from the listed principles and goals. Breaking the formal treaty up wouldn't change much.

The Shrine being guarded by felldrakes has nothing to do with the Treaty at this point.

If you want to learn something IC you are welcome to make an attempt IC. But certain things can be learned via the search function of the forum.

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Commie
 
PostPosted: Mon, May 29 2017, 18:34 PM 

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Lutra wrote:
Maybe certain events created certain more pan-Amian sentiments? See Ant Alarm as an example.


That would be good, with enforcing the state of alliances as part of the event, such as WT asking for aid and Cordor being like 'uhh didn't you say you were independent?' so it's in the public consciousness.

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corypx
 
PostPosted: Mon, May 29 2017, 18:43 PM 

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TormakSaber wrote:

kohlingen even having a strong navy in the first place goes against the entire place's ethos anyways. that it could stand up to amn, even with ruathym's help, was again a massive, incredible mistake, especially wih blood magic enahnced maztican backup.


Well see that's the even bigger joke, see Wiltun had a trade agreement with Amn that IC it got a lot of flack for because at the time we were staying out of it...because well it had no real effect on ruathym and we have nothing to show for it, the DMs did not even do posts to say we got increased wealth from all the trade or anything, we got nothing for playing neutral/ not joining the good side at the start as we wanted proof to show to the jarls before they throw themselves into a war.

Now this would have been a great time for PC/nations of amia to come to Wiltun/ruathym to ask for help with their navy or risk massive losses and death, but instead we had the Djinn pop up and offer to sell magical uber ships for 2mil a pop with magical weapon that needed no crew, no wind, no nothing. It became a gold sink event because they painted themselves into a corner we all knew they would never have us lose no matter how much or little gold players tossed at them ((hence why I refused to give a single coin))

Hence why everyone always jumps on the good side bandwagon, because you can get IC flack if you don't and zero reward even when your IC meant to by the DMs.

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Grymia
 
PostPosted: Mon, May 29 2017, 22:03 PM 

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The Djinn was in the area and someone actually thought to approach them. Also there was a lot more stipulations on the aid provided then Cory mentioned (That the ships ONLY be used in defense of the region and they would disappear after a month).


 
      
Shadowfiend
 
PostPosted: Mon, May 29 2017, 22:44 PM 

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Grymia wrote:
The Djinn was in the area and someone actually thought to approach them. Also there was a lot more stipulations on the aid provided then Cory mentioned (That the ships ONLY be used in defense of the region and they would disappear after a month).


Still a Deus Ex machinima

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Grymia
 
PostPosted: Tue, May 30 2017, 0:06 AM 

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No, Deus Ex Machina would've been the gods ACTUALLY interceding directly to destroy Reyes.

The Djinni provided a means to give the PCs a fighting damn chance.


 
      
Commie
 
PostPosted: Tue, May 30 2017, 0:56 AM 

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Grymia wrote:
No, Deus Ex Machina would've been the gods ACTUALLY interceding directly to destroy Reyes.

The Djinni provided a means to give the PCs a fighting damn chance.


you know the deus doesn't literally mean 'god' right

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corypx
 
PostPosted: Tue, May 30 2017, 1:00 AM 

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Grymia wrote:
No, Deus Ex Machina would've been the gods ACTUALLY interceding directly to destroy Reyes.

The Djinni provided a means to give the PCs a fighting damn chance.


I think any thing improbable resolving the difficulties of a situation still counts as Deus Ex Machina. Also again I feel that's because they painted themselves into a corner making a uber threat that in theory could have crushed amia like a bug with his floating island he could have used to whack-a-mole the ants below him.

It just felt like a lost chance for wide reaching sub-plots with a side of cause and a effect. Money when to Djinni and nothing, but instead if they did not make him the solution players might have been forced to deal with pirates,Wiltun, other naval powers...ect think if they gave a fraction of the funding to priates/bandits to use their ships to attack and now we would be dealing with better well funded ones because of it after the war.

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Grymia
 
PostPosted: Tue, May 30 2017, 1:01 AM 

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Yes, I also understand the general principle of the term.


 
      
TormakSaber
 
PostPosted: Tue, May 30 2017, 1:43 AM 

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bobofwestoregonusa wrote:
Lannie's presence was literally voted on as a duchal return to Cordor, with her duchal forces intended to guard over her duchal lands in the supposed-to-now-be duchal festival grounds. Literally everything about Lannie is the duchy and her marriage to a paladin from Kohlingen signifies the marriage of some member of the duchy to a paladin from Kohlingen. Lannie returning to Cordor never should have been done in the first place because the DM involved was directly invested in the d'Cordor situation player side. The same DM literally also refused to DM for West Cordor because they didn't like the players of the time and we were forced to try to approach Mana for some manner of DM support but this was at the end of her career where she simply no longer had the energy or desire to be client side.

Essentially after Kobra left everything may as well have been retconned with how poorly it was handled following.


You don't have a full understanding of the situation. Lanie returning to Cordor is an only natural extension of her character arc which has existed as long as the character has. To write her out of existence and not have her return to Cordor in some fashion would have been disrespectful to the setting. The DM who originally played Lanie had the best understanding of the character outside of Yossarin himself, and there is no one, myself included, who could have played Lanie better. While Lanie is a scion of the duchy, her character does not entirely revolve around such - you don't have a full understanding of the situation. You get a decent amount, given who you played at the time, but not the full one. Lanie returning wasn't even Alanna's idea. It had been bantered about several times before that, and Alanna only ended up running it because literally no one else would stand up and DM for Cordor after Kobra left, except for her, Sammy, and me. No one else wanted to touch it.

Kobra's Cordor was not retconned, and it was handled to the best of the DM's ability - a DM who got absolutely no backup save for myself, Sammy, and very briefly Kobra, despite asking for a whole lot more, and not being treated very well by players for the crime of acting a little bit differently than Kobra did.

No comment re: the rest.

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Alaria-
 
PostPosted: Wed, May 31 2017, 23:14 PM 

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I do not think the Treaty matters that much these days! If you want to look for conflict, I think that looking at Cordor and Kohlingen shouldn't be the main priority. We need to encourage evil settlements and evil characters, which due to server culture do not last very long. It's been a returning topic over the years so I doubt it will change, the playerbase drove things in this direction and we are left with an environment where evil cannot thrive.

I suggest that you try some other servers and see how they do things.


 
      
Commie
 
PostPosted: Thu, Jun 01 2017, 0:40 AM 

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Alaria- wrote:
I do not think the Treaty matters that much these days! If you want to look for conflict, I think that looking at Cordor and Kohlingen shouldn't be the main priority. We need to encourage evil settlements and evil characters, which due to server culture do not last very long. It's been a returning topic over the years so I doubt it will change, the playerbase drove things in this direction and we are left with an environment where evil cannot thrive.

I suggest that you try some other servers and see how they do things.


Were trying, really hard. But updates take years or more.

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Xenos
 
PostPosted: Thu, Jun 01 2017, 1:35 AM 

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As of October 22nd, 2013 Winya Ravana, after a Council vote, had officially withdrawn from the Treaty of Light. Most of what you see Winya Ravana doing is based on their own interests and morals. Shrine interference has more to do with Eilistraee, Drow and religious matters, not any sort of Treaty. Winya's actions in Dale during the Formian invasion was again unrelated to outside influence, rather as i remember, we just showed up. In the earlier years of Winya Ravana when it started to shape up into what it is today, members of the Council pushed to create a Trinity of sorts. While i don't recall if we had a fancy name and none of the founding leaders remain, to my knowledge, beside myself (kinda) the goal was the unite the Long Lived races, Elves of Winya, Halflings of Dale, and Dwarves and Barak. Not a day to day alliance, but that they would aid one another in times of need.

Whats the point of all this history lesson? Well, there are layers upon layers. Even without the Treaty, or any official documented matter, there are old ties. Based on these, old characters will at times press them (And sometimes not!). So finding Elves in the Dale is not going to be uncommon, nor would it be uncommon to find Elves in Barak. The Dwarves and stood and defended Winya's cliffs many times in turn. Besides all that, because most of the cities on Amia are Good, they are going to come together, treaty or not, because you would rather have a 'Goodly' neighbor, even if it is a dirty elf/paladin/drow. Honestly, i think that's FINE, it fits, its RP. Don't artificially screw with that.

Amia as an island is not that large. In no other place in the setting will you find so much variance in races, alignment and religions. That the island would start to calm over time is fitting. That it might end up merging into a type of Republic or Federation is fitting, it makes sense. I'm not keen to flip the canoe just to get a giggle. Conflict does not HAVE to exist in any major way on the island all the time, we have a whole world to play in. DMs can run stuff all over, Hellgate keep plot is still open to be run, Myth Drannor has yet to be taken and that could have happened a year or two ago and been in sync with when it happened in actual game year. Lots of big things can happen in the world, they don't all need to be connected to the island of Amia, hell we dont even need to do stuff exclusive to this plane either.

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Commie
 
PostPosted: Thu, Jun 01 2017, 3:31 AM 

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If there's no formal treaty that's fine, but the perma alliances in what should be a resource limited island has led to a comatose atmosphere with no actual conflict.

That may be a good place to live but it's a boring place to play.

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lilmarcat
 
PostPosted: Thu, Jun 01 2017, 5:01 AM 



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I feel it's time for the (Totally didn't copy the title) DM's to throw a few mischievous NPCs into the mix to help ruin the friendships across the isles. Dwarf frames a traveling Elf for a crime in Barak Runedar. Hardcore racist Westies hang some trespassing non-humans. Elven mage spell misfires near Bendir causing a farm house to burn down killing the inhabitants inside. The world isn't completely black and white when most of are actually more racially inclined to saving our own.


 
      
Commie
 
PostPosted: Thu, Jun 01 2017, 6:08 AM 

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also I really don't believe the treaty is gone. too many PC's talk about it still being a thing. if everyone believes it's there then it's there. whatever was said in winya in 2013 literally doesn't matter if people say ig things happened because of the treaty. I dont know how some ic forums can have so little information when dm's can sticky threads.

Winya forums have 10 stickys. 10 opportunities to inform characters and players of policies.

So why isn't it done? Why is there so little communication from the top down? If you step out of an alliance/agreement in secret, whats the point when people live their lives ic thinking those agreements are in place?

again im asking for DM's to go through and make a 'gee wiz' sticky in each region/city that just contains actually correct and relevant and current information for that area. why do so many people insist ic and ooc bendir dale feeds the whole island? why are the answers to basic questions like 'what is the population of *city*' so buried?

that's an issue separate to the stagnation problem, however.

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Lutra
 
PostPosted: Thu, Jun 01 2017, 7:21 AM 



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The thread went a bit off-track but let me just clear a few things.

The Treaty of Light (which was made in 2012 and not in 2013) is not gone and it has three members currently: Kohlingen and Wharftown on Amia and Barak Runedar on Brogendenstein. The Shrine may become an effective member again if they become sustainable on their own.
Cordor and Bendir Dale were never part of it. Winya left in 2013.

The Winya-Shrine dealings with the Felldrakes have little to nothing to do with the Treaty itself. I also highly doubt that anyone in Winya thinks that Winya is actually part of the Treaty because there were internal struggles and conflicts within the city due to the aftermath of the city leaving the treaty. Winya has it's own ties with other elements of the island and also with Evermeet. Being an elven enclave they are traditionally self-sustaining and have lesser economic involvement in the island-wide economy than any other settlement on the island.

Bendir Dale was traditionally always well liked and kept neutrality. Formerly started out as Cordorian fort (AKA Fort BEndir see Arelith), it slowly became an independent hin village.

Wharftown: Started out as a Cordorian tradeport, becoming a fishing village. Later falling under the influence of the Wyrmhold then the banites. During the Commonwealth time a certain someone did something that brought Cordorian attention on Wharftown. There Speaker Maximillian claimed that Cordor will annex the village if the village won't give up a certain something! After that incident various groups started to move to Wharftown and being the center of the Selunite faith on the island was also made the village a good candidate for Treaty membership.

Uhm: Poor Uhm :( Like Wharftown it was also a Cordorian tradeport at the beginning. Then indepdent...and subjected to various weird things...and now look at it... :(

Tarkuul's foreign relations: hhehehehehee..find out IC.

Barak Runedar: Treaty of Light member....the rest should be found out IC because dorfs keep their secrets.

Wiltun and Ostland are member Jarldoms of one kingdom that is known as the Kingdom of Greater Ruathym. They are far from being independent, especially when it comes to Foreign relations. They have a great degree of autonomy and they are competing Jarldoms.

Frozenfar Endir's point and the surrounding areas: It is almost a thousand sea miles away from Amia on the mainland. About 80 miles south from Fireshear, the trade city of the Lords' Alliance. Further south there is Aukney and Luskan. It is far away from Amia. If Ruathym or any member of the Lords' Alliance would begin longer meddling there then it would likely trigger a conflict with Luskan.
The Barony of Fogwood relations with others: Find out IC!

Forrstakkr: Alliance with Kohl. Culturally Northmen or close to Ruathen at least. Dislikes the dorfs of Brogendenstein.

Kohlingen has it's own alliances with the Treaty members, the LA, and Forrstakkr.
Kohlingen did not even recognize the post-Duchal Cordor until last year when they made a trade agreement as implied in IC posts. Furthermore, mind that (with the lore that now exists) Kohlingen's foundation started with a war against Cordor and after that they realized that it is impossible to fight a war without destroying the island. Before that war, the majority of the island bellow the Minmir River fell under Cordor's jurisdiction. Later various internal struggles within Cordor lead to the loss of that territory.

There was no retconning. Of course they were worried about Lanie's presene and by the fact that nobles and other exiles are returning to the city because the majority of the People in the West are house occupiers who split big noble residences into smaller habitable units. Since they were acting as the COmmunist occupiers in Russia or in other countries, of course they are worried that the returning elements of the ancient regime will issue legal or other claims on the occupied buildings. However, there is another factor here which eased such concerns.
They are no longer outcasts but taxpaying citizens which creates a certain form of legal security. The simple fact is that most of the decentralization sentiment was fueled by money from an active PC faction. The moment that stopped they had to look elsewhere for money and that was provided by the central government for work. Now that they work for real wages, the economic dependency to the central government has increased and that shaped the attitude accordingly.
This happened mostly because of the disappearance of PC involvement and not just from the West but every PC member of the government also disappeared or PC factions got disbanded months before the end of the 2015-2016 tenure.

PM for further details that your character would want to find out.

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Commie
 
PostPosted: Thu, Jun 01 2017, 7:34 AM 

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heres the big question then, the big issue.

i only started here december 2015, but until like this week assumed, because I was told IG repeatedly by dozens and dozens of people, the treaty was still in place and that's the reason all cities are constantly so chummy. I heard this as recently as the feldrake shrine thing, during the ant alarm, during the surge of wharftown activity, and as far back (for me) as the cordor elections.

if everyone thinks its in place, and everyone says its in place, and people base ic faction decisions assuming something's in place, then its in place, because the people that do things treat it like it is. which is why you need to, as a dm, make the information clear, in an area that people can be reasonably expected to see (ie not here) and also do something IG to ratify the fact these cities are not still currently in a military alliance. seriously, you know how much I play, how is it im only just now this week learning that treaty is gone, how is it so many people here still insist its a thing if it's been gone for literally years? how is the disinformation this bad when some local forums have as many as 10 stickys?

this needs to be clarified. information needs to be dispensed. and then someone needs to run an event to defibrillate some inter-settlement strife or conflict PC's can react to.

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Lutra
 
PostPosted: Thu, Jun 01 2017, 7:38 AM 



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Please reread the part when I say that the Treaty is NOT gone. The treaty still exists with the same members as in the end of 2015.

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Commie
 
PostPosted: Thu, Jun 01 2017, 7:46 AM 

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Lutra wrote:
Please reread the part when I say that the Treaty is NOT gone. The treaty still exists with the same members as in the end of 2015.


thats why I specifically mentioned things that didn't wholly center around the three city's still in it

Quote:
i only started here december 2015, but until like this week assumed, because I was told IG repeatedly by dozens and dozens of people, the treaty was still in place and that's the reason all cities are constantly so chummy. I heard this as recently as the feldrake shrine thing, during the ant alarm, during the surge of wharftown activity, and as far back (for me) as the cordor elections.


Want me to make a new topic where we don't talk about the treaty specifically and instead address ways the DM team (as players cannot do this at present) can/should introduce natural conflict into the world?

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Lutra
 
PostPosted: Thu, Jun 01 2017, 7:59 AM 



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What people assume IC is something that they assume IC, it doesn't always warrant DM clarification. How individuals interpret the Treaty ICly is not something that warrants DM intervention all the time. If someone does due diligence on the matter then they can get the information cleared up.
People in RL also misinterpret the meaning and the actual weight of the NATO and the EU. It is not entirely insane to assume that some Amian commoners, or especially adventurers, misinterpret the meaning of a Treaty between political elements.

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That Guy
 
PostPosted: Thu, Jun 01 2017, 17:09 PM 



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Okay, I read everything in this thread, and the one recurring thought I had was, "Why are we discussing an "in character" construct our of character?". The Treaty is roleplay, and as such, subject to interpretation. There is a ton of misinformation IC on Amia, as it should be. Our characters are not omniscient observers, they only know what they know and formulate ideas, opinions and strategies based on that information.

Commie, I do see your point, really, I do. That said, this is something better handled ingame than onforum. My understanding was that the Treaty was still in place (and Lutra confirmed that), but, that's something better found out in character, I would think.

Now that I said my peace on that... Commie has another strong point here:

The intercity conflict is practically nonexistent. He's right. Sure, there's small disagreements and sometimes larger ones (FOIG), but in general, nothing world changing or even remotely considered "conflict". I'm not a big PVP person, but... someone did say NPC's should be "stirring shit up" essentially, and I think they're right. I hate racism, in the real world, but, much of D&D is fueled by it, and the conflict that inevitably comes from it. Race, religion, ethos, these are what fuels characters to action in most cases.

Amia has become complacent. It's too easy to say, "low server population" so we should accept that Lolthite Drow, the Necromancer, the Paladin, and everyone else at any of the meeting hubs. This just shouldn't happen. If you are a "goodie" you shouldn't be hunting with a necromancer, there's just really no way that should work. Now, a necro that keeps their identity hidden? That's called roleplay. Buuut, I'm getting off track.

My point is... IC and OOC are not the same, and your alignment on your character sheet matters less than your reputation, warranted or not. Go with the "duck" principle: If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and acts like a duck... it's a duck, even if it's really a gopher. Doesn't matter. Perception is reality and what our characters perceive should be vastly different than what the players do.

I have so many characters that I forgot some of them. The ones I do play though, all have different ideas on things, and none of it is based on my personal ideals. This makes it difficult for me sometimes, since, for example, Nimi is a goodie, but... I personally don't agree with a lot of what she stands up for. Roach is completely irreverent, and crosses a lot of lines that I would never do myself. Both have unique world views and both are different than my own. I bet if you asked them both about the Treaty, you'd get different responses about it's existence, effectiveness and it's purpose. That's how the game works.


 
      
Commie
 
PostPosted: Thu, Jun 01 2017, 21:51 PM 

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i agree, it is better to handle it ig. but i feel its not being handled and that has led to a tremendous amount of issues as well as stagnation.

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