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MisterLich
 
PostPosted: Tue, Jun 27 2017, 2:04 AM 

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Currently, evocation caster clerics are one of the strongest builds on Amia, without needing to multiclass (although of course they benefit from certain combinations such as the classic caster/SD combination).

They have Haven which is basically vanilla gsanc, searing light which is, with epic evocation focus (which any caster cleric will/should take unless they don't want to be good) 11d8 damage with no save and no item or spell to resist the divine damage, hammer of the gods which situationally does either 11d8 or 11d10 damage with will vs half and stun, and EQ which is, as always, awesome. Not to mention word of faith which, if your opponent has low will saves, is often a battle winning spell.

Wizards don't quite have the same power. IGMS is decent DPS, yes, but there is no buff to IGMS for having epic evocation focus, and the animation takes a LONG time to hit the targets, and it won't interrupt anybody's casting if you're trying to duel another spellcaster, because any caster can make a concentration check from 12 damage.

Almost all their other evocation spells rely on reflex alone to do any damage, which is unreliable unfortunately. Chain Lightning is pretty great because it ignores spellcraft, but I anticipate that this will be changed soon hopefully.

If you're a wizard you basically have to rely on timestop, evard's and grease, and/or bigby's, to win, severely hamstringing their ability to offensively cast IMO.


What I suggest are the following buffs to wizard-only evocation spells, to make evocation wizards decent at life:



1. IGMS gets +2 missiles per target per spell focus. With epic spell focus, you're flying 16 missiles to a single target, or if you're fighting two people as a level 30 wizard, 15 missiles per target, etc. etc. This would help in small-group fights.

2. Fireball and delayed blast fireball have a fort vs daze effect with epic evocation. Lightning Bolt is significantly better than fireball to an epic evoker. Like, will vs stun if you use lightning bolt, or - on the same reflex save as damage - give them a -2 to fire saves? I know which one I'd pick. Fireball is garbage. Let's fix that and give it a fort vs daze, since you just got blasted by flames and explosions.

3. With epic spell focus: evocation, meteor swarm forces a secondary reflex save vs knockdown, similar to earthquake.

4. Great Thunderclap is awesome as it is, no need to adjust :P reflex and will save, and if you fail either, you basically lose the fight if you're fighting an epic evoker. Also has interesting Book of Transmutation damage potential.

5. Incendiary Cloud and Cloud of Bewilderment both have a 50% movement speed decrease in them if you are an epic evoker.



This would make evoker wizards significantly more interesting and powerful I feel. I don't think it would make them brokenly powerful, but it puts them on par with the blasting power of cleric evokers at least.

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Commie
 
PostPosted: Tue, Jun 27 2017, 2:56 AM 

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I don't really like those ideas, because it would just make a wizard as good as blasting as a blaster cleric, but not actually have a lot of the drawbacks a cleric has.

Also I'm pretty sure that searing light and Hammer of the Gods are both blocked by Globes of invulnerability which is, of course, a wizard spell.

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TormakSaber
 
PostPosted: Tue, Jun 27 2017, 5:32 AM 

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Fireball is easier to hit and a larger AOE, and has foes who are more often weak to the damage - lightning bolt doesn't have these bonuses.

Please do not buff IGMS.

The cloud spells are very good, and do not need a move-speed decrease attached - other cloud spells and AoEs have this already, and stacking them more would be disastrous.

I've admitted a few times I probably overtuned Searing Light.

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MisterLich
 
PostPosted: Tue, Jun 27 2017, 11:30 AM 

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The buff to igms is not much of a buff, really it is only making it more viable in duels and 1v1 fights.

You can healkit away the damage from igms easy.

I think searing light could use a slight debuff. It is -really- good. Don't make it vanilla again, but Idk, I feel it is a bit too good atm.

Fireball is awful in pvp, really, not sure what you are talking about tormak. Are you talking pve? Because I will be honest I think pvp is a far more important balance concern.

I agree on the cloud spells. Stacking them in timestop should be easy enough.

I think meteor swarm should be buffed as suggested to make it more useful. It is literally used as a joke by the only evocation wizard I know of ingame.


Keep in mind, that if I am not forgetting anything, the main downsides to blaster clerics are only that they have no breach unlike wizards (but as I have shown, getting a tome of mystra is not that hard anymore), and we don't have bigbys or timestop. We can instead cast haven and spell resistance, heal, and harm.

I feel like both classes should be capable of being blasters but clerics are simply way better at raw damage output atm. I am not trying to brag here. I am not saying I am the best or anything. I just think wizards should get some better damage options besides spamming evards and grease, or using bigbys.

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Commie
 
PostPosted: Tue, Jun 27 2017, 17:27 PM 

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You can just buy searing light immunity items from vendors.

Any spell you can render totally useless (on a cleric no less whom can't just dispel it) with no skill/class requirement to do so needs to be better then other offerings at that level or else why the hell would you ever prepare it?

like you can get spell mantle on items. I think some druid forms can cast it infinitely, doesn't the fey get it as a spell and also cast it on others infinite times?

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MisterLich
 
PostPosted: Tue, Jun 27 2017, 17:29 PM 

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Unless you mean scrolls, I am legitimately curious, what vendor sells you searing light immunity items?

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Osiris Masud

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Commie
 
PostPosted: Tue, Jun 27 2017, 18:15 PM 

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Arn't you like a Tarkuul major player now? Rune of warding sold by the store there. Lesser spell mantle on use. You should know this.

Pitt carries like 19 of them because it lets me keep spell mantle up for basically a whole rest cycle.

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Budly
 
PostPosted: Tue, Jun 27 2017, 18:19 PM 

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Mind if I ask why PvP is far more concerning for balance then PvE on a persistant server, RP server too?

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robbi320
 
PostPosted: Tue, Jun 27 2017, 18:23 PM 



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Mostly because PvE is easy enough for most people, and DM events are very incredibly powerful anyway, and have way different problems and solutions than PvE or PvP.

So, the only thing one can really balance around, is PvP. Also, because if PvP is imbalanced, one character might just start being more powerful, and forcing his will and RP onto others, by threats of violence, which would, for a big part, be legal by server rules.


 
      
MisterLich
 
PostPosted: Tue, Jun 27 2017, 18:24 PM 

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Because after grinding to 30 all that is left is player conflict, I.e. good vs evil and such.

Political strife, religious turmoil, cities going to war and more, all potentially involves pvp.


Pve is stupid easy as it is, no point in pretending we are balancing for that.

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Osiris Masud

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Commie
 
PostPosted: Tue, Jun 27 2017, 18:25 PM 

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all monsters just have pvp relateable stats anyway.

it's not like wow or other games where mobs use inharently different mechanics. everyones bound to the same rules and numbers so if you balance round pvp the pve will also be easy to balance.

ergo

shoot for 60 ac or +53 to hit unbuffed, and 40 in all saves.

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Budly
 
PostPosted: Tue, Jun 27 2017, 18:29 PM 

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MisterLich wrote:
Because after grinding to 30 all that is left is player conflict, I.e. good vs evil and such.

Political strife, religious turmoil, cities going to war and more, all potentially involves pvp.


Pve is stupid easy as it is, no point in pretending we are balancing for that.


I get that, I get Robbis comment to but that conflict is shit. It's all powergaming and more powergaming.

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robbi320
 
PostPosted: Tue, Jun 27 2017, 18:34 PM 



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Well, powergaming has been a part of the server for over ten years now, at least. Probably more. I'd say everything in NWN is powergaming, and has been from early on out. Like, literally, as far back as I could fid on the internet about NWN, there were things about how to play NWN, and how to get the most out of things.


 
      
MisterLich
 
PostPosted: Tue, Jun 27 2017, 18:37 PM 

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This is not a thread to discuss powergaming.

We are discussing the proposed changes in light of balancing a casting class for evokers.

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Osiris Masud

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Budly
 
PostPosted: Tue, Jun 27 2017, 18:39 PM 

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I simply questioned your arguement of rather balancing by PvP than PvE. Thats all. Have fun, I am not mechanically knowledgeable enough to discuss this topic when it comes to balance. All I wondered was your reason behind that point.

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