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Mushidoz
 
PostPosted: Tue, Sep 19 2017, 18:25 PM 

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First off, thanks a lot Amarice for taking on these loot bin changes! Most of the items that you have listed there seems like nice things to get!

That being said, there are two items in particular that I think shouldn't be in there. I told you already, so you are perfectly aware, but I would still like to open this thread up as an official suggestion because I think I am not the only one on the same boat when it comes to having that opinion about these two specific items.

My problem:

Redoing some of the loots is a way to remove some of the trash in there and make items more useful and relevant. Because of that, I think the epic appraise gloves and epic lore gloves as they are are counter-productive to that end and shouldn't be added to the epic loot rotation. They would automatically be added to the list of trash-tier epic items that piss people off (like parry gloves or epic sickles)
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Why want the lore gloves?:

As a practical skill, lore allows a character to save 100 gold per item to identify what you find. As a roleplay skill, it makes it so that you can roleplay being super knowledgeable about all sort of book-wormy stuff in events or roleplay.

In the case you want it only to identify items and save the money, why want an epic item that gives +30 if you can get a bunch of easy-to-find cheap items that will easily give you enough to identify items anyway? Actually, with 20 or so lore, I do not think there are items that cannot be identified already (and if so, you can just pay 100 for the rare occurance of that.....).

In the case that you want these gloves because you have lore as a show-off bragging skill, I do not quite see how 70 lore would be any different / more impressive than around 40 in lore. Which dm would refuse you a piece of information if your character invested this much in that near useless skill?
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Why want the appraise gloves?:

As a practical skill, appraise allows a character to pay less when buying from a shop, and to sell at higher prices. As a roleplay skill, it makes it so that you can roleplay being a super negociator / amazing merchant.

In the case that you want this to get more from your buck when dealing with merchants, that +30 to appraise will indeed work.. to a point. The catch is that with 16 in appraise, I pass from neutral to 5%. If I follow the same mathing (and for the sake of making this easier), +30 to appraise would give 10% increase in what is sold / 10% reduction in what is bought. Moreover, I believe there is a cap to what appraise can give (25%?) AND items won't sell for more than 30k.

In the case that you want this for the RP bragging rights of being able to sell a fridge to a polar bear, same as for the lore gloves, I do not quite see how having 70 instead of 40 will make you any more impressive / epic.
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At best, these two items are going to be niche items that one every 100 characters will legitimately want (for no other reason than to have bragging rp rights and look pretty on the character sheet). They're going to be as useful as tumble, bluff, persuade or parry gloves would be. Some guy claiming to be a duelist would roll parry to show how cool he is to everyone from time to time, and some acrobat would stretch their tumble to show how flexible they are... but that's not epic item worthy - this is personal request territory.

In their current state, I believe they will only serve to annoy / piss the 99/100 players that will find them and would have prefered getting anything else instead.
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Suggestion:

My suggestion would be that at least if they had some sort of bonuses, like say +5 to AC, that they could at least be sold to some less fortunate lowbies who can't have a +5 armor because they are expensive.

What do you guys think? Is there something I'm missing here? Any suggestion to make those actually appealing, epic-worthy? The way I see those 2 items, you will need more than +30 appraise to convince me they're worth anything... and that's coming from someone who decided not to take any concentration skill with their bard character just so that she could have a good bluff score.

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Amarice-Elaraliel
 
PostPosted: Tue, Sep 19 2017, 19:13 PM 

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1. just because you do not like it, doesn't mean it is worthless. I got several feedback of "omg my chara needs those gloves" from different people.

2. lore and appraise are not useless skills. They are not super mechanical value but they still give you a better buy and sell and free identifying. The RP value aside even. They are on par with the animal empathy and crafter gloves.

3. adding +5 AC is pretty useless on that item, especially since most charas who would love them are clerics and mages.

4. parry gloves will be removed because the skill is actually broken.

5. with 50 items in the bin you will survive having 5 items that are not power only but just epic quality and nice. There will always be stuff in there and dropping your character does not want/need. So trade or sell it to someone who does, and there are quite a few from the feedback I got, who do.

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Mushidoz
 
PostPosted: Tue, Sep 19 2017, 19:35 PM 

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1 - There are a lot of items in the epic loot bin that I "do not need" or "like" as something my characters would wear. That doesn't mean I consider they should be removed. Gloves of appraise and gloves of lore are, however, triggering a strong opposition from me this time around because I think they are the next gloves of parry. You say many said they want them, I say that I got the opposite in-game when I spoke of those items to other players. Also, I analysed the items and how they are to be used (and why) in my opening thread. Never did I say they have no use whatsoever. I however claim that, in their current shape, are going to be despised far more than they will be sought after.

2 - I've used animal empathy often mechanically, despite having very little in the skill. That is one amazing skill, actually, and I wouldn't shrug these gloves in along lore gloves at all. I am also perfectly fine with the crafting gloves, and if memory serves, these had more than just craft armor / craft weapon on them. If anything, appraise could very well be added to the crafting gloves as a super "merchant/crafting" super item, since nobody's ever going to wear that in battle anyway.

3 - Then why limit them to clerics and mages? At least by turning them into bracers and giving them +5 AC someone who has no use whatsoever for lore / appraise could at least want the gloves for the armor bonus while waiting to get a +5 armor. If they don't want the +30 appraise / lore and want to mythal something else instead, then they can. It'd give the equivalent of a flawless mythal tied to a bracer.

4 - Awesome news!

5 - I've dropped a total of 4 epic items since I've been here. Most of those were dropped back when people went out far more than nowadays, so why -add- two items that the vast majority of players won't want or ever use? The only "good"(?) argument I can see to having these 2 items in the epic loot bin would be to serve as dud / booby prizes now that the weapons will be limited to three drops instead (ores).

P.S. I'm perfectly fine with items that I won't ever use. Heck, I am suggesting to turn them as bracers with +5 to AC, and clearly Saya is not a character that needs that on her gloves - others would though. These gloves in their current iteration, however, are barely better than parry glove levels (the appraise gloves being a tiny bit better than the lore one)

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Amarice-Elaraliel
 
PostPosted: Tue, Sep 19 2017, 19:45 PM 

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+5 ac makes no sense on them. What would that be, armor plated reading gloves?

You can still craft them and make them more useful and also more unique than anything generic I could slap on them. Armor is not popular on the glove slot at all.

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freaxxshow1338
 
PostPosted: Tue, Sep 19 2017, 19:45 PM 

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... I think it's pretty harsh to have gloves that give you 30 Lore... I mean, if I invest 15 points of my skillpoints into Lore to have RP Value and someone who didn't put anything into it comes up in an Event, throws on his gloves and suddenly is like "Yeah I've read that in the f*cking necronomicon once" .. That feel kinda bad :/

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Amarice-Elaraliel
 
PostPosted: Tue, Sep 19 2017, 19:50 PM 

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Considering it is a crazy high will save to not go insane reading the necronomicon, I doubt that is going to happen. :-P that said you have the same result by someone using legend lore and identify before a roll. People with spellcraft AE or perform gloves have that same issue I'm afraid with the gloves.

P.S. worry not though DM can see the base skill too and do acknowledge that. ;) at least I do.

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Revak
 
PostPosted: Tue, Sep 19 2017, 19:51 PM 

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That's the appeal of the epic gloves though and still give RP value. People can argue the same with the Animal Empathy, Artificer Gloves etc. If anything you still need 1 skill point for it to take effect IIRC. Most of the time they're just used for RP flavour and out of battle mechanical benefits.

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Kudark
 
PostPosted: Tue, Sep 19 2017, 19:56 PM 

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freaxxshow1338 wrote:
... I think it's pretty harsh to have gloves that give you 30 Lore... I mean, if I invest 15 points of my skillpoints into Lore to have RP Value and someone who didn't put anything into it comes up in an Event, throws on his gloves and suddenly is like "Yeah I've read that in the f*cking necronomicon once" .. That feel kinda bad :/

I see your point here, but to be fair, you could just as easily throw those gloves on too, and have a 45 Lore, compared to their non-invested 31 Lore. To even use a Skill, your character has to have at least one Rank in said Skill, for it to even register.

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Jes
 
PostPosted: Tue, Sep 19 2017, 20:08 PM 

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OMG. *drool*

Just saying. I want all of these new gloves.

On all my characters forever.

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Dark Immolation
 
PostPosted: Tue, Sep 19 2017, 21:11 PM 

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I hope when we say Epic Parry Gloves are getting removed, we're talking about from the lootbin and not also from PC's inventory. I hate to be the "but this one change affects my purposefully stupid build!" guy, but Parry works in interesting ways for a largely pacifist dex-Monk and Circle Kick. And maybe, eventually, we can actually fix the skill or at least do something worthwhile with it where people will stop complaining about the item. Really. Parry is the closest skill we have to "swordsmanship" or "blocking." There is so much potential there...

As far as the Epic Lore Gloves, there's no real need to worry. You could already seriously inflate your Lore score with a Identify Potion and Legend Lore from an item. DMs can still recognize who has invested in the skill. Even if they're a dirty bard who gets Lore for free.

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Last edited by Dark Immolation on Tue, Sep 19 2017, 21:12 PM, edited 1 time in total.

 
      
Amarice-Elaraliel
 
PostPosted: Tue, Sep 19 2017, 21:12 PM 

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Yes, from the bin so they won't drop anymore in the future. The ones that are in game will remain.

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Mushidoz
 
PostPosted: Tue, Sep 19 2017, 21:13 PM 

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Amarice-Elaraliel wrote:
+5 ac makes no sense on them. What would that be, armor plated reading gloves?

You can still craft them and make them more useful and also more unique than anything generic I could slap on them. Armor is not popular on the glove slot at all.


Rich-looking bracers of a rare / luxuous looking metal could however justify having good armor, and perhaps even entice merchants to view you as someone who could potentially make them rich if they offer you the right deals (or they could have the sigil of a well-known company or house or whatever that has the same effect). As for lore - leather gloves enchanted to give knowledge / help remember things are as logical (or magical) as good protective bracers enchanted to give knowledge / help remember things! :p

If people do not want the +5 armor from the gloves, they can use a minor mythal to remove it. If they only want the +5 armor, then they can use a minor mythal to remove the appraise/lore too. At least the option is there, and it gives a use outside of the rare 100+ lore bookworm / epic appraise merchant of legend that wants a big flashy number.

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Amarice-Elaraliel
 
PostPosted: Tue, Sep 19 2017, 21:15 PM 

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Sorry, not feeling this is an improvement.

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Dark Immolation
 
PostPosted: Tue, Sep 19 2017, 22:48 PM 

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I personally don't see the harm in it. It's not possible to have every item in the lootbin be great for every build(at least, without having diversity). But when possible, it's worth making items that fit into multiple builds and playstyles.

If your PC gets Epic Lore Gloves and they personally couldn't give a crap about Lore, or already have enough for their needs... oh well. Good luck pawning them off on someone who does need them. It's sort of like finding a Trueforged Whip. But, if you give it an AC bonus, well, maybe you'll get some use out of that, even if you don't use Lore/Persuasion/Appraise. As for how they give the bonus? Well, the same way they turn you into Webster's Dictionary.

That much sits fine with me. The fact that Deflection AC isn't a popular stat on gloves is beside the point. Perhaps you haven't gotten your +5 from Cloaks or Rings and want to switch your load out around. That's the only issue I see, in the balance of it. +6 Stat cloak, +3 Stat Rings, grab your AC from your Gloves. But, if you can mythal the bonus, that's already possible, so *shrug*.

Long story short, the more useful we can make niche items for everyone, the better IMO. It avoids lootbin bloat and people are less bummed out when the first epic drop they see in a year isn't Volo's Scented Tissue of Sniffles +5. It don't think we have +5 AC Gloves any where in the module, so having the soft epic skill gloves have it kills a couple of birds with one stone in that respect.

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Mushidoz
 
PostPosted: Tue, Sep 19 2017, 23:01 PM 

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Just to add something after reading Dark Immo's post:

Gloves give deflection AC (same as cloaks, belt, rings)
Bracers give armor AC (same as fullplates, clothes, chainmails, leather armor, etc.)


My suggestion was to turn them into bracers, but you make me realize something in that one could be a set of bracer, the other could be a set of gloves. That way they are different, and they could potentially serve a different build. Not everyone has a +5 cloak of forti and not everyone has a +5 fullplate.

I also do not see any harm in adding that, and honestly, I fail to see how adding +5 AC to an item that doesn't have it would not be an improvement. AC was the first thing that popped into my mind to try and make them more mainstream appealing, but if people have other suggestions...

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Last edited by Mushidoz on Tue, Sep 19 2017, 23:24 PM, edited 1 time in total.

 
      
Dark Immolation
 
PostPosted: Tue, Sep 19 2017, 23:09 PM 

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Ah, I must have missed the part about the bracers. Braces are... weird in NWN. I'd still rather them stay gloves, because then they work for monks too and you can also GMW and Flame Weapon/Darkfire them. I can't even remember if we have actual +X Bracers in game or if we can craft AC onto them(can't check at work at the moment).

That might be an opportunity there though in itself: Epic Bracers of Prevention. A bracer version of the ring, with +5 AC and 5/+5 soak. At least it is there as an option. But turning the Epic Skill Gloves into Bracers cuts back on their utility and having a bracer and glove version of both would be mightily redundant.

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Amarice-Elaraliel
 
PostPosted: Wed, Sep 20 2017, 8:03 AM 

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I still feel the armor concept does not fit these gloves at all.

My suggestion for the lore ones:

Add Greater Planar Binding 2x day. It makes sense in what the gloves do otherwise. A bit useless for mages, but they would likely more go for the lore anyways. Useful for all other classes at least in a sense of some free "side aid", while not being OP. And as mentioned before, removing is an option.


Bit lost on the appraise gloves still when it comes to adding something else, but I'm pondering. Guess I could see the AC somewhat fit there, maybe. Would hive them each separate purposes while still not being both the same. (with both giving AC) I dislike things being all mainstream and have several things the do the same stuff.

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Revak
 
PostPosted: Wed, Sep 20 2017, 11:17 AM 

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Maybe add something like +3/+4 Charisma to the Appraise gloves? I can imagine them being a very ornate/beautiful pair of gloves if they're intended for merchants, maybe even blessed by priests of Waukeen?

Also, this:

Dark Immolation wrote:
That might be an opportunity there though in itself: Epic Bracers of Prevention. A bracer version of the ring, with +5 AC and 5/+5 soak.


That might fill a niche for some players and solve this +5 AC kerfuffle. Could even do +5 AC and -/5 Resistance to Physical Damage (Piercing, Slashing, Bludgeoning).

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Amarice-Elaraliel
 
PostPosted: Wed, Sep 20 2017, 11:28 AM 

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Adding a Cha bonus is a bit too limiting again imho. You can also just add +3 ability of whatever kind and mix you like to the gloves already on your own by mythals.

So not sure how much use that would actually be.

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Revak
 
PostPosted: Wed, Sep 20 2017, 11:32 AM 

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Was a suggestion, but fair enough! Yeah, don't see what else you could put on the Appraise gloves. Most standards i've seen for the epic gloves are usually +30 skill, +2 Ability and +3 Save.

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Amarice-Elaraliel
 
PostPosted: Wed, Sep 20 2017, 11:38 AM 

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I'll ponder about the bracers.

Variant A: +5 AC and 5/- to each of the three physical should be do-able tho.

Variant B: +5 AC and +5/5- damage soak is also possible and leave 1 mythal slot for customizing.

Each has its merits. All of it together on one may be a bit much. I'll nudge Sune and see what he thinks. I personally am more leaning to the either or. In that case it depends if you rather want the version where you still have a tiny bit of customizing option (variant B) or the set version (variant A)

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PassionateShadow
 
PostPosted: Wed, Sep 20 2017, 15:38 PM 

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Kudark wrote:
freaxxshow1338 wrote:
... I think it's pretty harsh to have gloves that give you 30 Lore... I mean, if I invest 15 points of my skillpoints into Lore to have RP Value and someone who didn't put anything into it comes up in an Event, throws on his gloves and suddenly is like "Yeah I've read that in the f*cking necronomicon once" .. That feel kinda bad :/

I see your point here, but to be fair, you could just as easily throw those gloves on too, and have a 45 Lore, compared to their non-invested 31 Lore. To even use a Skill, your character has to have at least one Rank in said Skill, for it to even register.



tbh what I'm dishearten about is one set of gloves replaces several custom DC requested items I have and makes them obsolete... this seems... very not fair? Where as I had to take up at least 3 slots for one oe two skills one set of gloves take sup one slot and is far superior to my Dc invested items. TBH it feels like I've been cheated.

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Raua
 
PostPosted: Wed, Sep 20 2017, 15:53 PM 

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PS, I think I know the items you're talking about, and I feel that it might seem unfair, but understand that there is no intention to slight anyone with these changes. Let me repeat: there is no ill intent.

You had the opportunity to create something unprescedented, and did! I think that is pretty cool! :D
In the end, you end up with something personalized to your character, rather than something generic. Im sure the team would be understanding if you want to re-look at them in the future as well.

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PassionateShadow
 
PostPosted: Wed, Sep 20 2017, 16:01 PM 

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Of-course not. There is never ill intent in what the team. Just for lack of better words. Shit happens and some times people are left not feeling so great about it.

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Amarice-Elaraliel
 
PostPosted: Wed, Sep 20 2017, 16:36 PM 

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If you feel you invested in lore before via DC items, and now you may be lucky enough to get the new gloves, there is noone stopping you from asking to replace your +8 lore for another skill.

Additionally, these skill gloves (which we always had, just with less variety) are limited. They are on gloves and gloves only. This means you give up on potentially great other gloves.

So your request was not in vein because 1. you are still far more flexible with it and 2. if your rather want the gloves and no longer need the lore on the (or all) your DC items, you are free to request a change.

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walnutboy
 
PostPosted: Wed, Sep 20 2017, 16:56 PM 

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Amarice-Elaraliel wrote:
If you feel you invested in lore before via DC items, and now you may be lucky enough to get the new gloves, there is noone stopping you from asking to replace your +8 lore for another skill.

Additionally, these skill gloves (which we always had, just with less variety) are limited. They are on gloves and gloves only. This means you give up on potentially great other gloves.

So your request was not in vein because 1. you are still far more flexible with it and 2. if your rather want the gloves and no longer need the lore on the (or all) your DC items, you are free to request a change.


... but is that a free change or does it cost more DC? I have to say I understand his frustration a little... and I don't own DC gear!

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Amarice-Elaraliel
 
PostPosted: Wed, Sep 20 2017, 17:00 PM 

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Worst case it would be 1 DC for re-making the item.

However, as this is not "adding to the power" but +8 mechanical skill swapped to +8 mechanical still, I would say it is free, if non of my collegues objects.

I do understand the frustration too, but things liek that happen. Malandria had, a very chultan fitting belt, that had 5/- magic resist and was swapped to a for her utterly useless 1xday spell mantle. (so I also had to make a change to that).

I had a custom FW item that turned her FW to cold. Then BoT changes were added. :P I got a refund. It is annoying, but it happens to all of us. However, if we can, we gladly help sort individual cases out where issues arise, either by changing them, or refunding if no change is wanted. (P.S. this goes for DC items, not for IG or epic loot items)

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MightNMagic
 
PostPosted: Wed, Sep 20 2017, 23:25 PM 

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Would be lovely to have "combat-worthy" gear with stealth detection on it. One thing that's always annoyed me is that there's a ton of combat-worthy gear with oodles of hide and MS on it yet anything with a spot or listen mod is utter trash to wear that'd get you killed if a fight broke out.

* * *

I feel kind of bad for anyone using a longsword. On-hit:fear? Do you know what the worst thing in the world for a meleer is? Fear. The only people who want fear are archers and mages. Warriors do not enjoy chasing mobs all over the map to kill them. :lol:

* * *

Is it even possible to keen monk gloves? Unarmed monks are so trash as is they're hardly made (for so many reasons, I've actually written a book about it), lack of keen and good discipline mods from gloves is but a couple of them.

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Gravemaskin
 
PostPosted: Thu, Sep 21 2017, 8:42 AM 

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The problem with adding spot/listen to gear in the same way hide/ms has been, is that characters with spot or listen rarely heavily invest in both, unlike stealthers who NEED both.

For instance, if some gloves were added that mirrored a pair of stealth gloves.. +2 Con, +1 uni saves, +5 spot, +5 listen, then you likely wouldn't use them if you're a spotter.. You would get 5 spot more from mythalling a pair of eye bracers, and you could grab +2 con and +3 fort or whatever fits yoru char or build.

IF you're an epic listener, then yeah as there's less listen gear you might use it.. but odds are you'd make your own mythal pair there as well.

The way to go about it would have to be the same as the high bonus spot and listen helmets, where you add more than 5 on the one stat and then add little other of value, because people would most likely remove things to fit the item to their build.

People with hide/ms generally go for dex stuff, so it's easier to design gear for them.
Where as people with spot and listen can be anyone.. with any build.
I'm not saying it'd be impossible, I'm simply saying you'd need a greater amount of items in general, compared to the hide/ms gear and it's my hypothesis why there aren't moreof them atm.

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walnutboy
 
PostPosted: Thu, Sep 21 2017, 11:18 AM 

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MightNMagic wrote:
Would be lovely to have "combat-worthy" gear with stealth detection on it. One thing that's always annoyed me is that there's a ton of combat-worthy gear with oodles of hide and MS on it yet anything with a spot or listen mod is utter trash to wear that'd get you killed if a fight broke out.

* * *

I feel kind of bad for anyone using a longsword. On-hit:fear? Do you know what the worst thing in the world for a meleer is? Fear. The only people who want fear are archers and mages. Warriors do not enjoy chasing mobs all over the map to kill them. :lol:

* * *

Is it even possible to keen monk gloves? Unarmed monks are so trash as is they're hardly made (for so many reasons, I've actually written a book about it), lack of keen and good discipline mods from gloves is but a couple of them.


I'd love arrows with on-hit fear... well any effect really that ties up or otherwise scatters a mob for us poor defenceless mundane archers! heh

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Amarice-Elaraliel
 
PostPosted: Thu, Sep 21 2017, 21:18 PM 

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Joined: 20 Jan 2006

Updated Lore and Appraise Gloves, added Bracers

I can't really agree on the Spot/Listen thing.

1. What Grave said
2. We have really amazing Spot and listen gear in game.
3. The Hunter's Sense is already an epic loot that is of 'enormous' use for Spotting and Listening.

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PassionateShadow
 
PostPosted: Sun, Oct 01 2017, 11:01 AM 

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Joined: 07 Jun 2014

Amarice-Elaraliel wrote:
Worst case it would be 1 DC for re-making the item.

However, as this is not "adding to the power" but +8 mechanical skill swapped to +8 mechanical still, I would say it is free, if non of my collegues objects.

I do understand the frustration too, but things liek that happen. Malandria had, a very chultan fitting belt, that had 5/- magic resist and was swapped to a for her utterly useless 1xday spell mantle. (so I also had to make a change to that).

I had a custom FW item that turned her FW to cold. Then BoT changes were added. :P I got a refund. It is annoying, but it happens to all of us. However, if we can, we gladly help sort individual cases out where issues arise, either by changing them, or refunding if no change is wanted. (P.S. this goes for DC items, not for IG or epic loot items)

This would be nice. <3

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