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LibrisMortis_666
 
PostPosted: Tue, Oct 03 2017, 0:28 AM 

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Hello!

Disclosure: This is in no way asking the DM to do better jobs. Lately I'm amazed with the team, and our population has been 45+ at the normal Eastern Hours. This is merely an idea for the Devs to consider in regards to new things. I didn't really put this in IA considering it's something I want the community to throw ideas in on, and then an official post can be made. I love you, though.

Class(es) we can improve on:

Monk:

1. I believe we can do something for Monks. While they're a fun and rich lore class, I believe they need some mechanical help. There are multiple types of monks that've been played on Amia. The popular / powerful Dexterity Monks, Strength (dev) monks, and Wisdom monks. However, I don't truly believe they're equal for mechanical options. I'm not an expert build-er in regards to powerbuilds / rp builds / e.t.c.

1A. We could implement new tools for Monks, perhaps more updated and useful tools that correlate with updates in general.

1B. I believe doing something /extra/ for Monk's with high Wisdom, in suggestion for Monks who focus in Wisdom instead of Dexterity / Strength. I understand the tools, most if not all for Monks focus around Wisdom. But from what I think, I believe it's too difficult for a Monk to use the tools considering their AB alone is too weak for most builds (this is a pvp aspect, I've no idea against pvm).

Dwarves Defender:

1. There isn't much I can say about Dwarven Defender because I've never played one. Though I think it could use a facelift. I hear chatter that they could just, in general, be pushed.

Shifter:

1. I think over the time from the changes (exp: http://www.amiaworld.net/phpBB3/viewtop ... it=Shifter) That shifter has went from a popular and fun class to a very unpopular class. I understand the need for some changes like Death Slaad losing Acid Spit, infinite Summon Slaads (Tho weak level), e.t.c. But too much of the class was removed / nerfed and not enough was added.

1A(Slaad). As quoted by Maverick the Slaad summon was removed, it was poor in power, and only used to cheese certain bosses. Well, for my first suggestion instead of removing such feature maybe boost it? Give the summon a twink and limit it from infinite to 1, or 2. Make them an OK summon, but not a IX / Epic tier summon.

1B. Again while I agree some forms needed a little work here and there (as stated above), I think instead of nerfing some forms leaving the Shifter class relatively weak, boost forms. From what I've experienced Shifters come in the following: They focus on 1 or 2 forms, underutilizing the other forms. (Exp: Monk / Shifter / Druid who focuses on Wraith form).

1C. Honestly, when the changes that shifter-abilities / shifter-spells don't cross over to other forms was a bit crippling altogether. Instead of being able to cast Flame Weapon, Improved Invisibility, Mass Haste, Mage Armor, e.t.c on yourself at least /utilizing/ some forms, those forms are now completely useless. I think shifters shouldn't be a "focus on one form" type class as it is, and has been, for awhile. I think a Shifter should truly be able to utilize all their shapes. Ever since this change some forms are hardly ever touched.

1D. In general, yes.. Some forms needed work to make less OP. But a lot of the forms need work to make them useful at all. The most utilized forms are Epic forms (Outsider / Undead / Construct). Clearly, because they're epic forms you need a feat for. However, as a shifter levels their non-epic forms turn into epic. These forms are weak in general and not entirely played. They've been stripped of any use they had and now shifter is no longer a fun class.

- Anyways, this is Me. I'd like to see more Monk-work, DwD work and Shifter.

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RaveN
 
PostPosted: Tue, Oct 03 2017, 0:35 AM 

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Doesn't this kind of thread belong in IA?

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LibrisMortis_666
 
PostPosted: Tue, Oct 03 2017, 0:47 AM 

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As for the very first paragraph (:

I didn't think I'd post it in IA for a reason. These are vague ideas from me, with no solid work behind it or true knowledge on how to improve it. I was hoping to get feedback from the community regarding their ideas, then make a more detailed post describing what can be changed. My ideas are vague and didn't consider them any true contribution to update except awareness.

Though if the DM team feels it belongs in IA, by all means.

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Falling Spider
 
PostPosted: Tue, Oct 03 2017, 1:03 AM 

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Mildly uh, bias here, as my main is a generalist shifter, but some of my thoughts:

Wyrmling is.. whatever. It's fine. If you've got allies (or stick to places where the blue and greens can tank, with a regen item) it'll hold you till 3 shifter, where you get gargoyle and never, ever, touch wyrmling again.

Epic Wyrmling: No. If you want to throw out elemental damage at level 21+, you're honestly better off loading up on flame weapon and just barreling through with a stronger form. Or the lizardfolk, which is pretty strong even into higher levels. The epic wyrmling suffers at high levels for the same reason it suffers at low levels. They're a set of generalist forms, tank, sneak, dps.. But the other shifter forms are also divided into those categories (and utility, I guess?), and always outdo wyrmling.

Harpy: This is pointless. Your DC, in my experience, is never high enough for any of their abilities to land, even at low levels and certainly not at high levels. My shifter's wis-based, even! I don't know what could be done with this, but it's real bad, even when not compared to gargoyle- which I've found to be useful from the level I got it tooo.. I'm 25 now. To level 25, so far- and Minotaur, which is the first real good heavy hitter form you get, and once it upgrades at 13, it's ALSO real good. Compared to the rest of its tier? Bad. Maybe make it a party-buffer form, or something?

Manticore: I know, I know, it's one of two ranged forms.. But the damage is real, real, real bad. Like harpy, it's outclassed by the rest of its tier. Unlike harpy, there's a pretty easy fix: Some form of weapon merging to its bow. If I'm running a, for instance, 1d8 element, keen, GMW'd, Flame Weapon'd dagger.. I'm much better off turning into a drider, in tier, where that'll all merge into its already fairly good halberd, than the manticore. Again, some way to merge weapon damage onto the bow. (Or, just, buff the bow to do fire or something.)

Humanoid shape is all pretty good, but it'd be great if the drow shape continued the x3 crit weapon path of minotaur -> drider -> drow melee shapes.

Medusa has the same issue as the manticore. Bad damage, no elemental hits.

Mindflayer is a bit weak, especially compared to, say, the lizardfolk- divine damage in my experience playing a shifter, is always better than un-enhanced physical damage. (A LOT of enemies seem to soak hefty amounts of physical damage).

More to come as I level, if this thread is still around.

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Mushidoz
 
PostPosted: Tue, Oct 03 2017, 4:37 AM 

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Monk:

Heavy monk investment needs to get a form of uncanny dodge. Otherwise, I don't think they're as bad as people make them out to be. Normally their purpose is to tank up front and disrupt casting as they move on the battlefield at torpedo speed. Problem is those casting classes are too powerful.. and keep on getting buffed, for some reason.


Dwarven Defender:

Vastly underrated class. Their job's to tank, and they do that pretty big if they are heavy on the con stat (21) and dwarven defender levels.


Shifter:

Not sure why you'd want to buff one of the strongest classes in the game. They are incredibly versatile, their ability offers amazing RP opportunities / venues, and their potential is pretty much limitless if custum requests are open for new shifter forms. Even if not the case, honestly, they have infinite cast on their (useful) spells, with -great- resists (including complete immunity to critical hits and sneak attacks...) and they get the most out of the gear available on the server due to how things merge for them (+6 stat items in mind here). There is a shape for them for any situation, be it in PVP / PVM or during an event. Perhaps some of their current shapes aren't amazing.. but honestly, if 1 or 2 aren't, there are however some that are so outstanding they just downright outshining everything so hard that the less useful ones aren't even necessary.


---------------------

In my opinion, we're not approaching these the right way. Normally, we shouldn't look at "who can solo everything", and rather "how good are you at X". D&D isn't supposed to be a solo thing. Casting classes are supposed to be limited in Dungeon and Dragons (in nwn they aren't enough..), rather than being better melee characters that dedicated melee characters (unless they benefit from the 100000000 buffing spells that the mage might want to share with them). Because of that, we get people thinking in order for a class to be good, they need to be good at everything like the casters are. That's a real shame.

So yeah.. if we look at the roles of certain classes (monks and dwarven defender), we get to ask ourselves if they're doing it right or not. I think heavy Dwarven Defender will soak up incredible ton of dmg if on the front row, so they work as intended. As for monks... because mages are ridiculous, they are not able to do what they should be doing completely. However, they do have loads of AC... and that's only crippled by the fact they can get flat footed and lost a good portion of it. That's why I think heavy monk should net them uncanny dodge or something alike. If their main job is to tank the front row while things in the back are doing the damage / supporting, then we're all good to go.

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Falling Spider
 
PostPosted: Tue, Oct 03 2017, 4:58 AM 

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How possible would an insightful strike feat be? Maybe even make it two feats. One to give you wis to AB like weapon finesse, one to give you wis to damage like str. Both only function if most of your levels are monk.

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LibrisMortis_666
 
PostPosted: Tue, Oct 03 2017, 5:30 AM 

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In regards to Mushidoz.

Monk: I was more looking towards a Wisdom based Monk. I understand the tools focus around Wisdom, but if you consider things, the tools are useless. You have requirements for the tools such as being able to even strike an opponent. Wisdom Monks can't hit the broad side of a ship with a arrow. I honestly don't think any of the tools are even useful in PvM. (Though I don't play a Monk.)

Dwarven Defender: I believe they're more under utilized than underrated. It could be better, I believe. Though I'm not entirely sure on how to fix it / improve it.

Shifter: Shifter is no where near one of the strongest classes in the game. They offer amazing RP opportunities, I agree.

In regards to their infinite casting spells: Mass Haste, Flame Weapon and Phantasmal Killer are perhaps the most useful spells. You can only cast Mass Haste in Stone Golem form. It doesn't ride to your next form. Flame Weapon only works in Azer. Phantasmal Killer only works in Slaad. The point is, sure they've unlimited spells but the useful ones or even not so useful ones still don't really do much. In addition, the point of the actual post I made is for ideas to boost the underutilized forms. 90% of shifters focus on one or two forms. Those forms are typically Stone Golem / Iron Golem / Wraith or Lich.

My post also isn't designed to get them to solo bosses again. It's just to utilize under utilized forms. Though I'm unable to have all the answers for this by myself.

If we're considering the most powerful classes that's, to me, Paladin / Dragon Disciple / Casters (any) / and dex-Wms. Shifters were, at one point. But I'm not trying to get them back up there. I just think of the 90 forms they have only 3 or 4 are useful. The ones that were really useful have been reduced of their use. Not asking to have it fixed back to their original versions, but do facelifts to each form. Not reduce the utilized forms.

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lilmarcat
 
PostPosted: Tue, Oct 03 2017, 5:47 AM 



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Shifters, in addition to the lack of transferable buffs, also generally suffer from poor AB and an inability to use heal kits in forms. This often makes them worse off in most melee's due to the reliance on regen based gear and diminishing returns from heal pots.


Insightful strike should be possible, though the WIS bonus will likely count towards the +20 bonus AB cap.


 
      
LibrisMortis_666
 
PostPosted: Tue, Oct 03 2017, 6:04 AM 

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Greater Wildshape II:

Minotaur: 41 AB, 44 AC (Both unbuffed). Feats: Epic Weapon Focus: Greataxe, Damage Reduction III. Spells / Abilities: Bloody Freenzy, Hurl Rock, Iron Horn. Greataxe Enchantments: 1d6 Fire, +3 Slashing, Keen, On-Hit WoundingDC24.

Gargoyle: 25 AB, 42 AC.

Harpy: 29 AB, 46 AC (unbuffed), Sonic / Fear / Stunning Howls.

Greater Wildshape III: Baslisk: 47 AC, 32 AB (unbuffed). Petrification (29 DC), Stone to Flesh, Stoneskin, Damage Reduction II.

Drider: 48 AC, 41 AB, Darkness, Missile Storms (Lesser), Web, Acid, Weapon: Acid 1d6, On-Hit DazeDC24, +4 Enchantment.

Manticore: 37 AB, 47 AC (Unbuffed). EWF: Longbow, WF: Longbow, Manticore Spikes, Quilfire, +10 Mighty / +4 AB, +4 Piercing.

Humandoid Shape:

Drow: 39 AB, 45 AC, WF: Longsword, Melf's Acid Arrow, Mage Armor, Darkness, Longsowrd: 1d6 Cold / Keen / On-Hit Freeze.

Lizard: 40 AC, 34 AB, Hammer of Gods, Cure Critical Wounds, Nature's Glance.

Kobold: 47 AC, 37 AB, HiPs, Improved Evasion, Mass Camouflage, One with the Land, Glyph of Warding. Short Sword: 1d6 Acid, +4 Piercing, Poison 1d12 Str, Keen.


These are Epic Shaped, with a averagely geared Shifter (nothing Epic). Now you may consider "wow, most of these have 40s AC and 40 AB, that's okay". It's not that OK. The spells are low-leveled (like Bloody Freezy for Minotaur) and only last 2 or 3 rounds. You rely heavily on Regeneration Gear, Heal Potions, and as stated many shifters focus their build on 1 form.

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LoveLossHopeRepeat
 
PostPosted: Tue, Oct 03 2017, 19:41 PM 

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Hey, hey! Just for comparison, I've been playing a pure caster druid alongside Falling Spider's shifter. Considering that druids also get shapeshifting that is almost as useful for battles, but for incredibly specific tasks, I think that so far, there isn't much incentive to play shifters instead of just plain druids. Why take the PRC and depower yourself when you can play a pure druid and get shapes, access to some of the unique forms on Amia (fey, nymph, dryad), high powered spells (which, yes, aren't infinite, but certainly last long enough between rest timers to not matter), and a fully leveled animal companion with bonuses?

In our experience, shifter is pretty great at lower levels, but then loses all impressiveness around mid-levels (12+), and doesn't really improve. There's little reason for shifters to use any other shapes other than... Well. Gargoyle.

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Falling Spider
 
PostPosted: Tue, Oct 03 2017, 19:44 PM 

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That gargoyle is completely jacked for a good long while. If construct and outsider shape are anywhere near as universally useful, that'd be something special, really. Doesn't help the other shapes much, though. (Seriously, some elemental damage on the ranged shapes would be a godsend.)

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LibrisMortis_666
 
PostPosted: Tue, Oct 03 2017, 23:12 PM 

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Epic Gargoyle (Wildshape II): This form originally had 25/+10 DR and 20/- to all physical damaged. Ultimately making it a perfect tank, but I agree that's a little high. The DR for both physical damage and overall DR was cut in half, however. I think cutting it in half quite literally killed the form. I think we should consider restoring a little more DR, making it of more use. This form has absolutely no offense, and its defense was literally cut in half. 25/10DR to 10/+6 DR, and 20/- DR to all physical damage to 10/-.

Epic Rakasha (Outsider Shape): The only real use this form has is complete immunity to spells. I think that's not overpowered considering just about any Cleric with 27 levels has a high CR and can resist any spells / Monk. However, I think the Rakasha should have its spells powers enhanced a bit, Level wise. The form is ultimately just used to absorb spells. It has use, but it could be better.

Epic Stone Golem (Construct Shape): Stone Golem has its tricks, such as Mass Haste / Hurl Rock / Unlimited Stonehold. Easily countered, the Stonehold, by Freedom, and Hurl Rock by Evasion / Improved Evasion. Too much of its defense was clipped, and I think we should restore it. To be fair its offense isn't that good, this is a defensive shaped form. Ultimately, even with 4d10 Mass Crits, you're not hitting much with a Stone Golem's AB.

Epic Lizard (Humanoid Form): Improve AC, Improve AB, maybe give Conjuration focus for a more powerful Cure Critical Wounds. Maybe improve Evocation focus for a more potent HoG. The Hammer is questionable. +4 Enchantment / Damage Bonus: Divine 1d6, On-Hit Stun: Dc=20 50% / 2 Rounds, Keen and Ultravision. This of course stacks with your weapon. But maybe give minor embellishments?

Epic Harby (Wildshape II): Just redo this whole thing. I've never seen this form have any utilization.

Epic Mindflayer (Wildshape IV): Poor AC / AB. Pretty much just uses Psionic Inhertial Barrier, Psionic Mass Concussion and and Blast. The Inheritial Barrier only last 1 round per hit dice for the creature. Maybe increase the hit-dice so the Barrier last long enough for the Mindflayer not to get complete fucked. Any KD-er can just knock it over and ruin it with its low AC. You'd have to blast them back to back to back and keep them KDed.



Other:
1. Heal Kit Emulation. The other heal a shifter gets it Heal Pots (Costly), Cure Critical Wounds (Takes a lot to fully restore Health), and Regen (clogs gear).


- These are just some ideas I had. It's not solid, and I'm not ready to suggest them to the team. Looking for input on it.

For those that are going to comment and still scream shifters are the best / one of the top dogs:

1. Shifters require Regen gear. No matter what. If you want to survive in any situation (PVP/PVM) you have to.

2. Spend all your gold on Heal Pots. A common issue for many, however more so for Shifters. They require them because they can't heal in their form (Unless you unshift / risk death / shift to Lizardfolk. Even then it takes forever to fully heal).

3. Shifter's gear is very unique. Regen takes up a lot of it because the best Shifters want highest Regen.

4. Most shifters are geared towards 1 or 2 forms. When a shifter should be a jack-of-all-trades. It doesn't strike me as a Shifter to only use the same predictable form. Iron Golem / Risen Lord / Azer / Dragons are the best shapes. Their Dragon Form is a premature version of a Druid with Dragon Shape considering the spells they can cast. So a Shifter focuses on Regen Gear and has limited power for buffs (Potions / Scrolls / Items). You can't Mass Haste yourself in Stone Golem form then shift into another and keep a OK duration Mass Haste. Instead once you use a Mass Haste scroll and it runs out you'd either just fight or unshift in combat. Shifters shouldn't be a one form trick, they should have many forms that are useful.

5. The moral of the story is Shifters right now are 1 trick guys, instead of a Jack of all trades. Most of their form's tricks are easily negated by spells or potions. Nothing is truly broken about them. They'd defensive forms with awful offenses but their defense was too reduced. The offense ones have too weak defense. The two need to meet in the middle. Great Defense and OK Offense. Great Offense and OK Defense. Otherwise "awful" in each scenario will ruin the form.

6. Those forms with no Offense or Defense are forms never used, despite being an Epic-Shaped form, and have no true use.

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Kronox
 
PostPosted: Wed, Oct 04 2017, 0:28 AM 

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I have never made a Dwarven Defender, so I'll refrain from that and there's plenty of discussion for that all over.

Shifters are always tricky to balance, but what I see is people wishing that they had a form to do everything great. As I see it, Shifters are arguably good at everything, but great at nothing, save for being very versatile. Why have a form that is on par with a Weapon Master AB/Damage wise when you also have the ability to stealth well, tank well, cast well, all of the other tools you have. The Kobold Commando should be good at stealthing and sneaking, but not as good or better than a dedicated stealth PC. The Rakshasa should be good at casting and magic-y stuff, but not as good as a mage. Arguably, I could concede that Shifters should be the best Tanks, since ultimately golems and gargoyles SHOULD be better than a normal humanoid in armor, so there is that. But I think to balance Shifters people need to first accept that the form's uses shouldn't be quite as good as a dedicated PC performing that role.

Monks though! *Cracks knuckles*
The only reason, in my opinion, to go pure monk, is for the RP of being a pure Monk. Mechanically, multiclassing is a must, but it is for most other classes. Even casters usually pick up a Ranger level. I don't think it's critical for Monks to be given Uncanny Dodge, simply because you should really be getting that anyway, as Monks benefit a lot from every source that could give it to them. Going Pure Monk is like what going 20 RDD used to be before the changes, a suboptimal choice you make for RP purposes. Depending on any changes made for WIS monks, that could change, but as it is, it's just the nature of builds.

Dexterity Monks are fine, they have crazy high AC and decent AB, but low damage. Mitigated by Epic Weapon Specialization, should they take it, but they're okay.
Strength Monks are fine, their AC is on par with a Strength Plate/Shield melee character, with really solid damage. Takes a bit of gearing, but that having a MAD of 4 Attributes, that's the nature of it.

Wisdom Monks are tricky because thematically, they're not supposed to be as good of warriors as the Dex/Str counterparts. They're the more meditative, Ki mastery focused ones. They have more insight in combat, sure, which is why the WIS bonus to AC exists, and I see that as calmly dodging and misdirecting attacks. That style though is inherently defensive and not offensive, meant more to disable than defeat, really, and is apparent in the Ki abilities having a higher DC. Hitting is an issue, so I do like the idea of tools for WIS monks. Ki Focuses or something like that, with a pretty steep WIS requirement. Optimizing WIS monks should be about the Ki abilities and making them more viable, rather than simply making them more akin to their more Warrior focused counterparts. The abilities being Melee touch attacks are looking at BAB + STR mod (Note, Weapon Finesse does not apply) + Nature Sense (not likely to have on a Monk, but possible) + Epic Prowess + Unarmed Weapon Focus feats. For example using a Pure Monk, BAB at 30 will be 20 + 0 (lowball STR for numbers sake) + 3 (weapon focus) + 1 (Epic Prowess) = 1d20+ 24 for a 10 STR WIS monk to hit with its touch attack. Which seems low against AC but, it negates Armor, Shield, and Natural armor. So for a Plate/Shield standard fighter, you're going from 55 AC to 29, at which point you only need to roll above a 5 to hit. Having higher STR helps this. Dexers, as they should, have an easier time dodging these touch attacks, but gearing some more STR makes it manageable, and hitting them with Eagle's Claw first helps even further. Any kind of Tool for WIS monks would be beneficial to enhance these touch attacks, either by providing more uses of Stunning Fist, or upping their chance to hit. Alternatively, having an Epic Feat similar to Eldritch Mastery would be a good option, too, essentially empowering each ability. Prereq: 25 WIS or something.

Other than that, I would just like some balance Mythal wise for unarmed Monks. Quarterstaff monks aren't bad, as they're in the same boat as a 2H Fighter, but the mythal slots on gloves could go a long way for unarmed Monks. If not Mythal slots, something to fill in the gap that Mythal slots would typically cover.

Monks have so much potential in Amia, though, as they have the ability to request extra things not in the core abilities given enough RP and dedication. Kaha is a STR Unarmed monk, the least efficient of them all (save for WIS) and still manages to do well PvE and PvP wise. He even took down a Cordor Law Knight once! If certain things were made in the same mentality that Monkeygrip, Flight, or Shadowjumping are, that would be a huge step in the right direction for Monks. For instance, say somebody requests and finds a way to use their Wholeness of Body ability to instead cast Greater Restoration using that slot. If that person could then do the RP with others and it become a staple option through RP, you've made the Monk class as a whole more solid, and promoted RP in the process. More and more of things like that that give bonuses while not playing with flat numbers would also be a solid option.

My $0.02

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LibrisMortis_666
 
PostPosted: Wed, Oct 04 2017, 0:51 AM 

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Kronox wrote:
I have never made a Dwarven Defender, so I'll refrain from that and there's plenty of discussion for that all over.

Shifters are always tricky to balance, but what I see is people wishing that they had a form to do everything great. As I see it, Shifters are arguably good at everything, but great at nothing, save for being very versatile. Why have a form that is on par with a Weapon Master AB/Damage wise when you also have the ability to stealth well, tank well, cast well, all of the other tools you have. The Kobold Commando should be good at stealthing and sneaking, but not as good or better than a dedicated stealth PC. The Rakshasa should be good at casting and magic-y stuff, but not as good as a mage. Arguably, I could concede that Shifters should be the best Tanks, since ultimately golems and gargoyles SHOULD be better than a normal humanoid in armor, so there is that. But I think to balance Shifters people need to first accept that the form's uses shouldn't be quite as good as a dedicated PC performing that role.

My $0.02


1. I'm not hoping to accomplish having all the forms buffed to be amazing. Most of them aren't even useful for anything (Harpy is prime example).

2. I agree most of the forms shouldn't have Weapon Master AB/Damage. That's why the Kai abilities for Iron Golem and Drider was removed. However, some damage is needed. Those with 0 defense focus on offense, however the offense is terrible. Therefore, there is no offense or defense. So the form is useless.

3. Rakashsa shouldn't be top tier caster, I'm just curious if we can buff their spells just a bit more. Unless your shifter has high ass Discipline, you can KD the Rak and the game's over. They have spell immunity, that's it. Only useful tool aside infinite spells. But the defense of a Rakashsa ruins things. BBoD, WM, anything can destroy it before it pops a single spell.

4. I'm hoping to get suggestions on how to improve the overly nerfed forms, or the not so used forms.

As for your Monk suggestions IDK much about Monks. I really want to make one, but I admit I know very little of their RP / e.t.c. So it'll be a whole new experience to me. Though I know Monk, Dwarven Defender and Shifter are just a few things that could use some love. And that's why the topic is here- trying to spark good ideas, then we move forward with honest suggestions to the team.

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thetangerinetornado
 
PostPosted: Wed, Oct 04 2017, 1:27 AM 

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Wisdom monks don’t have much to recommend them (never have) and could certainly use something. The one in my vault had to literally be dragged to high epic levels. AC is good, you can manage to get it high with a combo of DEX/WIS. Other than that your Damage and AB suffers. You’re not really any more survivable than a regular DEX based Monk, but you hit less often and do less damage when you do. It also reduces the option to use Flurry of Blows. I’m of the opinion that it’s possible to improve Wisdom Monks via the special monk attacks. They are used unarmed and can be more focused to leverage Wisdom. Suggested changes below to make them more useful and add Wisdom requirements.

Pros
- The first 5 special Monk attacks are touch attacks, which already helps their usefulness greatly. Hitting with the special attacks isn’t really the problem.

Cons
- You only get 1 per Monk Level per day. Sounds like a lot but it’s like 1 per spawn when hunting for your typical Monk 20 build.

- Only half of the Monk special attacks even use Wisdom presently and largely only for DC calculations that are lackluster at best.

- Using the special attacks forces you to give up your remaining attacks for the round. That’s 4-5 additional attacks which you give up to get one special attack in.

IMO the best special attacks are the disablers, since they have a duration. The worst special attacks are those which provide a single blow damage calculation, since you never end up doing more damage but simply trade one “almost sure to hit” attack with somewhat extra damage for 4-5 completely negated attacks you never make.

Pain Touch – AB Disabler. In my opinion this is one of the best attacks of the bunch. You get it early. It usually hits. It lasts for Monk Level/Round. Suggestion: Leave as-is.

Axiomatic Strike – Divine Damage Dealer. Chaotic Foe Only. Does better damage than Eagle Claw, but doesn’t have a Disabling Effect. Basic Damage tradeoff since you lose multiple attacks in the round it’s used. I never use this one since you waste Stunning Fist uses for no ultimate benefit. Suggestion: Adds Wisdom Mod as Divine Damage for Monk vs Chaotic aligned Foe for Rounds equal to 1+ Monk Level/10 rounded up (max 4 rounds). This is a nice short burst of damage across multiple strikes. Requires 14 Wisdom

Eagle Claw – Magic Damage plus AC Disabler. The AC disabling part lasts Monk Level/Round which is nice but caps at -3. Damage is less than Axiomatic Strike. The damage addition is just a tradeoff and you’re actually doing less damage overall. Suggestion: Drop the Damage entirely but retain and improve AC Disabling. Instead of -1 per 10 Monk Levels capping at -3, make it -1 per Wisdom Mod/2 rounded up, uncapped. A Monk 20 with a 10 Wisdom Mod and its -5 to AC for 20 rounds. Requires 16 Wisdom


Freeze Lifeblood - Disabler. Wisdom Based. This is similar to Stunning Fist but it’s a touch attack and the DC is lower. A Monk 30 with a 10 Wisdom Mod gets a DC of 35. Fort Save. Which means even though you have a better chance to hit you are fishing for 1’s. Suggestion: The only thing I can think of is to include Improved Stunning Fist feats in the DC calculation. If people choose to take the feats they can boost the DC while retaining an improved chance to hit. This would cause the special attack to become a better version of Stunning Fist most likely. Requires 18 Wisdom. Either that or just get rid of it.

Weakening Touch – STR Disabler. In my opinion this is also one of the best attacks of the bunch. It usually hits. It lasts for Monk Level/Round. Even though it doesn’t really use Wisdom I would not change this one. Suggestion : Leave as-is

Ki Shout – Quivering Palm Disabler/Damage Dealer. WIS based DC with colossal AOE. Level based Damage. I think this one is in a good spot and Quivering Palm itself is near useless. Suggestion: Leave as-is.

Ki Defense – Damage Shield. Uses Empty Body. The thing is that Monks are not supposed to get hit. They have oodles of defenses. This one requires the highest level to attain but is the most useless. Suggestion: It should be Ki Offense. Adds WIS Mod to AB for Monk Level/4 Rounds. A nice burst of AB with short duration and maximum of 2 uses/day. Requires 20 Wisdom. Useful for Boss fights perhaps instead of chugging multiple True Strike Potions.

So I left the useful existing ones which can remain as-is with no Wisdom Requirement and the less useful ones with suggested improvements with a scaling Wisdom Req.

This thread should really be in IA.

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LibrisMortis_666
 
PostPosted: Wed, Oct 04 2017, 1:29 AM 

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I agree it could be in IA.

Originally it was made just to get ideas, and whatever ideas were solid.. Whichever could be possible.. I'd then post in IA for the DMs to review. But that seems like a lot more work then needed.

Can a DM move this to IA?

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Shadowfiend
 
PostPosted: Wed, Oct 04 2017, 12:32 PM 

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Doesn't the shifters phantom shape have Epic Dodge (might be wrong on that one), HiPS and crippling strike on top off crit immunity? I mean, that's powerful. I disagree that shifters need a buff, because every time I see someone fight one, they have their asses handed to them, and that counts for groups of players too.

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Falling Spider
 
PostPosted: Wed, Oct 04 2017, 19:53 PM 

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While it would be completely dope and mildly underpowered, it does not get epic dodge.

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LibrisMortis_666
 
PostPosted: Wed, Oct 04 2017, 20:55 PM 

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Shadowfiend wrote:
Doesn't the shifters phantom shape have Epic Dodge (might be wrong on that one), HiPS and crippling strike on top off crit immunity? I mean, that's powerful. I disagree that shifters need a buff, because every time I see someone fight one, they have their asses handed to them, and that counts for groups of players too.


1. No ED.

2. HiPs (Though the form has base 30 Hide / MS if you don't stack your own skills)

3. Any Heal Spell, e.t.c. will wreck it.

4. Any Undeath to Death will wreck it.

5. Can't heal itself. Once you're Near Death you're relying on Regen.

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Shadowfiend
 
PostPosted: Wed, Oct 04 2017, 23:42 PM 

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Quote:
3. Any Heal Spell, e.t.c. will wreck it.

4. Any Undeath to Death will wreck it.

5. Can't heal itself. Once you're Near Death you're relying on Regen.


That's not going to help against your average melee fighter, is it? It also have improved invis on top of that, no? From the brief look I've had at shifters they don't seem to have any glaring weaknesses.

And you can just unshift to heal, then shift back in, no?

My impression is that despite some shapes having glaring weaknesses, if you look at all the shapes combined they have none. Maybe shifters aren't as strong as they used to be, but I find it hard to believe they are as weak as you try to make them out to be.

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LibrisMortis_666
 
PostPosted: Thu, Oct 05 2017, 0:49 AM 

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Shadowfiend wrote:
Quote:
3. Any Heal Spell, e.t.c. will wreck it.

4. Any Undeath to Death will wreck it.

5. Can't heal itself. Once you're Near Death you're relying on Regen.


That's not going to help against your average melee fighter, is it? It also have improved invis on top of that, no? From the brief look I've had at shifters they don't seem to have any glaring weaknesses.

And you can just unshift to heal, then shift back in, no?

My impression is that despite some shapes having glaring weaknesses, if you look at all the shapes combined they have none. Maybe shifters aren't as strong as they used to be, but I find it hard to believe they are as weak as you try to make them out to be.


1. Sure, for the average melee a Shifter can be an issue. The wraith form is immune to sneak and crits. However, the weaknesses of the shifter class (all forms / gear design / e.t.c) is weaker than the average build.

1A. Shifter's require Regen gear. Most of their gear is Regen, it's that simple.

1B. Shifter's have 3 forms, commonly used, that can't benefit from a Heal Pot or Heal Kits. Which means they have to unshift (and risk absolute death) just to heal. They only get 3 shifts per-day for Undead, Construct, Outsider and Dragon. Which means too much shifting between fights will leave you weak. It also means you're literally gobbling all your gold for Heal Pots.

1C. As stated above, most forms are too weak for pvp / pvm. The most commonly used forms for a shifter is a focused form, which means their build is designed around that one form. Shifter's, imo, shouldn't be a 1 form class. They're a Jack-of-all-trades, which means they're wasting their true skill.

1D. Combining all the shapes's powers you get: DR, Critical and Sneak Immunity, some OK damage (depends on the form), and some OK AC. You get some OK spells and you get OK abilities. Lastly you get OK feats. VS. Divine Energy vulnerability (Divine Damage, Conjuration Spells, Those spells in the Abyss the Divine Wenches use. A Transmutation focused Druid can fuck up any of your construct forms with Crumble. You rely heavily on Heal Pots and Regen. Your gear is basically Regen / +6 Con / +6 Dex / +6 Str /this means you need exactly all epic gear/. You're stuck to one or two forms, as it is currently).

Overall, Shifter's are OK against melee and it depends on the melee. But they're stuck to one or two forms. WMs might have a difficult time taking on a Shifter, but a melee Bard? A focused Paladin? No.. Shifter's won't last too long. It'll come down to your gear vs. their gear. In addition every build except Shifters have the ability to heal themselves with Heal Kits. Shifter's will rely on +10 (usually +8) Regen per-round, and if you get them low enough then they'd use Heal Pots. Heal Pots only go a long way, however. Unshifting in pvp / pvm is a no-no. Bad stamina. You'll either get KDed and the match is over, or you'll lose too much HP when you shift from Form -> Human -> Form. That you'll need to either unshift again or heal pot spam.

Overall I'm just trying to get the very weak forms, forms no one really uses, some use. Maybe boost the overly nerfed forms, too.

EXP: The Azer. It was Nerfed, but Mav made up for it. The form is, to me, more useful and more level-headed than it's original version. I don't think people recognize that. He did a great job. Just got to do minor touch up on other forms.

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Mushidoz
 
PostPosted: Thu, Oct 05 2017, 5:04 AM 

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LibrisMortis_666 wrote:

1. Sure, for the average melee a Shifter can be an issue. The wraith form is immune to sneak and crits. However, the weaknesses of the shifter class (all forms / gear design / e.t.c) is weaker than the average build. <--- It's immune to death spells (I assume), immune to crits (and thus sneak). I'm sorry, but that alone is enough to make that form broken. Don't they also have a nice on-hit level drain or something?

1A. Shifter's require Regen gear. Most of their gear is Regen, it's that simple. <--- I don't see that as a downside or a problem. Regen is an amazing ability, and most people can't afford to have massive amount of it because it takes a lot of mythal slots and they need them to cover their vital needs (like stats, saves, etc.) Shifters can make it work since many of the stuff other characters get they don't care due to how the forms work.

1B. Shifter's have 3 forms, commonly used, that can't benefit from a Heal Pot or Heal Kits. Which means they have to unshift (and risk absolute death) just to heal. They only get 3 shifts per-day for Undead, Construct, Outsider and Dragon. Which means too much shifting between fights will leave you weak. It also means you're literally gobbling all your gold for Heal Pots. <--- Almost everyone ends up using healing pots eventually. Archers need to spend their cash on arrows.. they can still become rich. Gold is definately not an issue on Amia.. heck, Saya refuses to grab loots (unless it's super light, like a ring) when she's in a party, I don't solo stuff, and I managed to last years with the gold she has despite buying all sorts of crap for lots of people. Seriously too, these shapes are innately super resistant and soak up damage that other classes would have needed to heal up... oh and shifters have high regen, stats, and hp..

1C. As stated above, most forms are too weak for pvp / pvm. The most commonly used forms for a shifter is a focused form, which means their build is designed around that one form. Shifter's, imo, shouldn't be a 1 form class. They're a Jack-of-all-trades, which means they're wasting their true skill. <--- Every shifters I've been with were super strong in both pvp and pvm. Also, you say it yourself, they are supposed to be "Jack of all trades", problem here is they're actually far stronger than what the "master of none" status is meant to stand for <.<

1D. Combining all the shapes's powers you get: DR, Critical and Sneak Immunity, some OK damage (depends on the form), and some OK AC. You get some OK spells and you get OK abilities. Lastly you get OK feats. VS. Divine Energy vulnerability (Divine Damage, Conjuration Spells, Those spells in the Abyss the Divine Wenches use. A Transmutation focused Druid can fuck up any of your construct forms with Crumble. You rely heavily on Heal Pots and Regen. Your gear is basically Regen / +6 Con / +6 Dex / +6 Str /this means you need exactly all epic gear/. You're stuck to one or two forms, as it is currently). <--- everyone goes for epic stuff, shifters just don't need to sacrifice anything to get items with 6 worth of mythal slots and make them work with their build like other classes do


Overall, Shifter's are OK against melee and it depends on the melee. But they're stuck to one or two forms. WMs might have a difficult time taking on a Shifter, but a melee Bard? A focused Paladin? No.. Shifter's won't last too long. It'll come down to your gear vs. their gear. In addition every build except Shifters have the ability to heal themselves with Heal Kits. Shifter's will rely on +10 (usually +8) Regen per-round, and if you get them low enough then they'd use Heal Pots. Heal Pots only go a long way, however. Unshifting in pvp / pvm is a no-no. Bad stamina. You'll either get KDed and the match is over, or you'll lose too much HP when you shift from Form -> Human -> Form. That you'll need to either unshift again or heal pot spam. <--- shifters should choose a form, fight, then die or live in it. Then select another form once they have a different fight. Their versatility is very well represented from what I've seen.. And really, the sheer power that comes with what's associated RP-wise of someone that can shapeshift into anything more than enough justify people going for that class. It's like druids / mages being the answer to all and every problem on the island - certain classes come with RP perks that make them absolutely outstanding. Meanwhile, Joe the axe-wielder gets outshined by casting classes fighting in melee, and can't win a fight solo against a powered-up summon or a shifter unless he gets buffed by someone..

Overall I'm just trying to get the very weak forms, forms no one really uses, some use. Maybe boost the overly nerfed forms, too. <--- I get that, but I just don't think any buff or increase in utility is needed for shifters. They are super powerful AND incredibly useful as they are. The only complain I could consider valid would be if druid bashing was the core of this thread (and it's not), as I think buffing their shifting was unncessary and steals shine away from shifters

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LibrisMortis_666
 
PostPosted: Thu, Oct 05 2017, 5:25 AM 

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@Mushidoz

(My replies to you!)

1. Their on-hit level drain is not nice, it's weak. That also implies if it could hit. It's immune to death spells because it's a Undead form (which makes it 100% vunerable to Divine magic like any Heal Spell, Undeath to Death, Sheering Light, e.t.c) Basic spells a Druid or Cleric has. Also, this isn't a form I'm trying to get enhanced a little. It's, as stated before, the utterly useless forms. Like Harpy, the Wyrmlings, Rakasha (or however you spell it), Stone Golem e.t.c.

1A. It's not too much of an issue in regards they get the perk of a lot of regen. However, that means majority of their gear is /just/ regen. I was merely pointing out they suffer gear wise since they've a very, /very/, specific gear requirement.

1B. The issue with Heal Pots and shifters is certain forms don't benefit from it. Making them reply entirely on Regen. The Undead forms get no Heal, absolutely none, unless you have high Regen / or request RP Abilities. I'd imagine acceptable ones are Negative Energy Burst (For the Wraith / Lich form, Vampire has it). Only then, depending on CR, can it offer any true healing use.

1C. Idk if you've talked to those "shifters" that are super strong in pvp or pvm lately, and if you have, I'd like to talk to them. But shifter's got a recent nerf that kinda injured their surviability. Though I can tell you most the active playing shifters right now can confirm they're nothing compared to what they were.

1D. In regards to the Epic Gear I mentioned, You're only going to get full power from a versatile Shifter (one that doesn't focus in one or two forms), if you have literally some of the best Epic Items. Stone Belt Giant, for example, a +6 STR Belt. Otherwise, you're wasting PP points for your gear that you could use for Regen, for Stats. Basically a versatile Shifter will require the best gear just to function like a shifter should.

As for the other questions.

- Have you ever played a shifter? You have to adapt in pvp with your enemy. It's not like you're going to know automatically what you're up against(both PvP and PVM). It's often a tactic for Shifters to switch throughout combat. If you're dueling a Caster, usually you'd pick a form equipped to fight. However, depending on how the caster fights, depends if you change forms or not. I've played a shifter for years and I know it's a struggle to just "guess" and "assume" the powers a Shifter has in PVP against their enemy. I also agree the RP perks to a Shifter is amazing, I love Shifters, that's why they need some /lovin/.

- No offense, but unless you play a Shifter you won't realize it. The struggles to play a Shifter in pvp and pvm. I'm not all about pvp or pvm, I love the rp. But the two come into play for any character. You can't just shrug off legitiment suggestions with "they're too powerful", especially if you've never played one. Shifter's /were/ over powered, I agree. Mav did some work and leveled out some forms (Azer for example). However, some forms were over-nerfed, and some forms have just never been useful. (I hope this doesn't sound aggressive).

Overall shifters need work on their /USELESS/ forms. I agree Mav should continue adjusting the overpowered, like removing the Ki abilities from Drider and Iron Golem. However, too much nerfing without balancing out the other forms just wrecks a shifter (and has). It's like the devs go into Wizard's whole spellbook and nerf 90% of their useful spells. You'd have the same posting on the forms. I mean.. Look at the Enchantment work that happen? I don't see any Enchantment-focused Wizards around anymore, because too much was touched and not enough was added.

EDIT:

This is in no way to bash the work Mav, or others have done. This is just a concerned Shifter lover who thinks the class needs some love. Mav knows (as I've told him), he's done a great job on somethings he's done. Like the Azer form.

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PassionateShadow
 
PostPosted: Thu, Oct 05 2017, 8:54 AM 

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Shifter used to look like a cool thing to play when I joined... then power build pvp happened... then nerving happened... now I see no point in playing a snifter at all when Druid basically offers you all the fluff of a shifter and then some.


Honestly what I've seen druids do in the recent times I don't see any any reason to play any other class at all. You can pretty much make a druid top the characters in near any and all awesome regards least you want preform for bard or something like that. Their Cat form makes me feel stupid for playing any sort of shadow dancer. Like with the skills you can get by their shapes and the spells you can get... why would you play anything else?


I don't play druids cause I don't like that kinda role play and the few times I have tried to reach out to the druid community I felt like I was getting cold shouldered. I play where I find fun. -Shrugs-


You also have to take druid to go shifter any ways... so why go shifter at all currently?

Wizards...

Enchantment sucks- Enchantment nerfs went in right after I requested an enchantment wizard. So... This was useless for me and I lost the want to play the character I worked hard to be able to play.


-shrugs-


Can we get some SD love pls? pls? ... pls?



I remember lots of things were talked about for SD... nothing happened?

-shrugs-

I really like sd and ROGUE classes are my favorite thing to rp. There's very few dancers about to learn from.

In fact I think I've been the most active teacher ig in the last two weeks as far as I can tell... I have some sd's and well... There's no one to learn from~

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Falling Spider
 
PostPosted: Thu, Oct 05 2017, 15:32 PM 

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The main issue with SDs that I've seen on other servers and nwn in general is that it's sort of counter-intuitive? It's for stealth fighters, which are generally rogues. Rogues get their damage from sneak attacks. Taking SD (especially more than is needed for HIPS) reduces your sneak dice significantly.

How possible would it be to give SDs additional sneak dice? Start at 7 (the 'heavy investment' level where you're probably going to keep taking SD), 10, 13, 16, 19. That way it's still slower than rogue progression, but not non-existent- 19 levels for 5d6, vs a level 19 rogue which would have 10d6.

I don't know how strong the shadow is, but perhaps putting it on a cooldown like shadow daze, triggering after the shadow dies, would be worth looking at?

(I've always found pointing out that 'this class has rp opportunities' in these sorts of discussions kind of goes nowhere. A lot of narrative power, in D&D and thus NWN, is wrapped up in mechanics, probably due to its nature as a wargame derivation. That and, well, we all know it's for a roleplaying server. No one's asking for a Flaming Poisoning Raging Sword Of Doom that does nothing but instagib everyone else, I promise.)

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Tarnus
 
PostPosted: Thu, Oct 05 2017, 15:54 PM 

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Falling Spider wrote:

([...] No one's asking for a Flaming Poisoning Raging Sword Of Doom that does nothing but instagib everyone else, I promise.)


Yes, yes they do. They don't get one, but speaking as one of the people usually commenting on the balance bits of requests... ;)

That being said, implementing additional sneak attack dice, if even possible which probably Mav would need to confirm, comes with its own headaches.

NWN knows three sources of sneak attack, those being rogue-sneak attack, Blackguard-Sneak attack and Assassin-Death attack(sort of).

While these sources stack amongst each other, they do not stack with themselves so just adding the sneak attack feat to the SD hide or something like that will not work at all if you already have a sneak attack source of the same nature already used.

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Falling Spider
 
PostPosted: Thu, Oct 05 2017, 22:58 PM 

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Ah well. I've seen it done elsewhere is the only reason I'd suggest it as doable.
EDIT: Yea, I went and checked. It's situational if you're near your shadow. There's a check for if you have rogue sneak dice- if yes, it gives you improved sneak attack feats. If no, it gives you one basic sneak attack feat and the rest of your dice as improved sneak.

The other place I saw just gave them the imp sneak feats with no other, like, checks done, but idk if that's how they'd want it done here. (and does require you to be either BG or rogue to benefit, I think.)

Double EDIT: Alternatively, could do some sort of shadow evade buff. (Cooldown that sucker?) Maybe after 7, the SD gains cold or negative damage or something while shadow-evading.

Triple Edit: Shadow conj line using some sort of SD-friendly calculation scheme, x times per day?

Qua-edit: Just got outsider shape! Azer is great, rak does what you'd expect it to, but uh. What the hell's with slaad? It's creature weapon is 0d0? So its physical is purely str mod+enhancement. It's got a (low DC) on hit stun, which doesn't feel like it's landing much, and.. phantasmal killer? I don't get this one. Is it supposed to be some kind of regen tank? If so, the ac is only 2 higher than the Azer, which has DR, does more damage, has a rage and fire bolt and stuff... Someone explain slaad to me. Is it bugged? (Can we get the shapechange slaad, or something like it, if this is intentional? That one's neato and it would give shifters one feat-shape that hits the ranged niche.)

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PostPosted: Mon, Oct 09 2017, 22:23 PM 

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TheCortroy
 
PostPosted: Mon, Oct 09 2017, 22:24 PM 

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PassionateShadow wrote:
Shifter used to look like a cool thing to play when I joined... then power build pvp happened... then nerving happened... now I see no point in playing a snifter at all when Druid basically offers you all the fluff of a shifter and then some.


Honestly what I've seen druids do in the recent times I don't see any any reason to play any other class at all. You can pretty much make a druid top the characters in near any and all awesome regards least you want preform for bard or something like that. Their Cat form makes me feel stupid for playing any sort of shadow dancer. Like with the skills you can get by their shapes and the spells you can get... why would you play anything else?


As a player of a shifter for a main character, I actually have to agree with PS.

All-in-all, there are about 4 useful forms for a shifter at the current state in the game - Iron Golem, Wraith, Illithid, and Azer. Anything else was nerfed into the point of not being worth using, because you're severely handicapping yourself. There used to be other good forms that could have applications for other things.

Stone Golem - Used to be an amazing form, it was over the top absolutely though. It did need some nerfs. But with the Shifters buffs not stacking over anymore, and a lack of Damage Resistance - this form is now absolute shit other then sitting there and spamming mass haste on your group of friends. Any creature with a +5 weapon turns this shape into absolute dogshit, considering I got my ass whooped by Rosary's dragon in it. A joke.

Slaad - I don't even know what was happening there, but let me tell you, walking around with 40 AB dealing, dealing 20 damage a hit, no slaad bolt, no benefits - except that one petty little illusion spell that does nothing anyways. There's no point in ever using this over Azer or Iron Golem form.

Rakasha - Against with a decent amount of Spell Resistance this form is complete garbage, always has been.

Risen Lord - A very situational tanky form where if you have a +5 weapon it's useless anyways.

vs DRAGON DRUIDS!

Just for irony, I made a dragondruid build to prove a point - his name is Akram.

I managed to - fit in Dragonshape, Monk, Epic Mummy Dust, Greater Ruin, Amaaaaaazing pet, 60+ AC, 48+ AB during shapeshift, Mass Heals, ecetra ecetra. Dragonshape is better then all the shifter forms -combined.-

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Maverick00053
 
PostPosted: Mon, Oct 09 2017, 22:37 PM 

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TheCortroy wrote:
PassionateShadow wrote:
Shifter used to look like a cool thing to play when I joined... then power build pvp happened... then nerving happened... now I see no point in playing a snifter at all when Druid basically offers you all the fluff of a shifter and then some.


Honestly what I've seen druids do in the recent times I don't see any any reason to play any other class at all. You can pretty much make a druid top the characters in near any and all awesome regards least you want preform for bard or something like that. Their Cat form makes me feel stupid for playing any sort of shadow dancer. Like with the skills you can get by their shapes and the spells you can get... why would you play anything else?


As a player of a shifter for a main character, I actually have to agree with PS.

All-in-all, there are about 4 useful forms for a shifter at the current state in the game - Iron Golem, Wraith, Illithid, and Azer. Anything else was nerfed into the point of not being worth using, because you're severely handicapping yourself. There used to be other good forms that could have applications for other things.

Stone Golem - Used to be an amazing form, it was over the top absolutely though. It did need some nerfs. But with the Shifters buffs not stacking over anymore, and a lack of Damage Resistance - this form is now absolute shit other then sitting there and spamming mass haste on your group of friends. Any creature with a +5 weapon turns this shape into absolute dogshit, considering I got my ass whooped by Rosary's dragon in it. A joke.

Slaad - I don't even know what was happening there, but let me tell you, walking around with 40 AB dealing, dealing 20 damage a hit, no slaad bolt, no benefits - except that one petty little illusion spell that does nothing anyways. There's no point in ever using this over Azer or Iron Golem form.

Rakasha - Against with a decent amount of Spell Resistance this form is complete garbage, always has been.

Risen Lord - A very situational tanky form where if you have a +5 weapon it's useless anyways.

vs DRAGON DRUIDS!

Just for irony, I made a dragondruid build to prove a point - his name is Akram.

I managed to - fit in Dragonshape, Monk, Epic Mummy Dust, Greater Ruin, Amaaaaaazing pet, 60+ AC, 48+ AB during shapeshift, Mass Heals, ecetra ecetra. Dragonshape is better then all the shifter forms -combined.-


Dragonshape is only that 'good' when you run around fully buffed with blood frenzy running. You don't just turn into a dragonshape and walk around with those kind of stats. It is like comparing a Cleric fully buffed to a WM. On paper it would seem that WMs are shit all around. Which isn't the case.

Some of the forms certainly need some tweaking and I appreciate feed back. There have been threads going up for a reason and it is shame that no one feels the need to use them sometimes.

Shifter was disgusting before and got the much needed nerfs for a reason. A lot of the straight up immunities, and other insane stuff some forms got was just not something you could balance around. Chaos Spittle was a prime suspect and if I hadn't removed it and changed Slaad I would of just butchered the Chaos Spittle script into something far worse.

Dragonshape on the shifter is still quite useful, not comparable to a druid, but it is the only form that comes with bioware TS.

What about the 'Cat' form makes you feel stupid? Are we ignoring the fact that the shifter gets multiply HIPSing forms? The Cat form should not still have the unbalanced hips, and if it does it is a bug that it will attempted to be swashed a third time.

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lilmarcat
 
PostPosted: Mon, Oct 09 2017, 22:41 PM 



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Druid cat form now has fixed HiPs


 
      
MightNMagic
 
PostPosted: Mon, Oct 09 2017, 23:26 PM 

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I've been playing an unarmed wisdom monk for what seems forever, that said, monk is one of my favorite classes, being into martial arts myself as a young man growing up and having a huge mystical kung fu movie fetish. Most of my characters over time have had monk in them to various degrees. However, unarmed monk on this server is pretty trash whether you're dex or wis based. It's mostly near the bottom in terms of power or usefulness. Going standard yardstick fighter/wm/rogue is far better for just about everything. You'd be better off by going kamas or even (yes) shifters.

A few thoughts on improving their balance on Amia from experience:

1. Problem: Gloves.
On almost every server I've ever played, the staff realized unarmed monks get the sever short end of the (eskrima) stick in terms of balance. Usually to counter this, the gloves I've ever gotten were /notably/ better than the weapons of other sorts of playstyles in AB/DMG/perks. Amia not really so much honestly. X gloves +6 are really really mediocre gear with +6 ab and a sad amount of negligible 'elemental' damage. Once you factor in the mythal system, holy cow does an unarmed monk lose out.

Solution: The staff should re-balance gloves to take realities of balance into account. Every monk glove should be treated as an item that has a range of powers from 6 to possibly 8 or 9 max. (4 powers being the glove standard, with the rest being combat-based fighting powers since it's a weapon.) Long ago I successfully argued that 2 handed weapons lost out in general to sword and board and successfully convinced the staff to up them from 4 powers to 5 (or 6, I forget which).
Of course, the staff cannot simply say "Ok, well gloves now have 9 powers, go nuts." as that would give every character a ridiculous upgrade. There's two ways to handle this that I can think of that shouldn't be too hard to implement, I'd think (hope). One, as a budding monk levels up, every so many levels he can go to one of the masters about the isle and take a "test" (much like martial arts movies do). The early tests are simple things, maybe mystical wisdom questions or riddles. Later tests might be something as hard as defeating the master in combat. If the disciple succeeds, they get a plot item glove upgrade suitable for their level (and the master takes the old gloves, lesser gloves in trade).
Of course, epic monk gloves need adjusting too. Hin/Long Death/Yellow Rose +6 are just a sad, sad thing not really even close to running around with an X-forged weapon and getting +8 more mythal slots to upgrade with. To that end, epic boss drop monk gloves would need reworked in a similar vein of various styles, like so.

Gloves of the White Tiger Style
+6 AB
+5 Bludgeon Damage
+2d6 Slashing Damage
+2 Dex
+25 Discipline
+3 Fort Save
OnHit: Whatever's Reasonable
Monk Only

Why build like this? Well it's a monk glove that makes up for the fact it also reflects an unarmed monk isn't getting +8 more mythal powers that'd come on a weapon/shield. Not to mention can't take advantage of +30 discipline skill gloves like everybody else. And making the bonus damage physical means it isn't laughed off /by everything and everyone/ sporting low level elemental dmg buffs and gear with elemental resists. Just like everybody else's weapons.

You know those kung fu movies where the badass martial arts master can't be knocked down (or simply kipped up immediately) and he was undefeatable? Yeah, in Amia, unarmed monks are knockdown bait. He's the weakest guy in the game. Knockdown almost always works on him. WooWoo!

2. Problem: The Bonus Techniques.
These were added I think to address the fact unarmed monks really aren't so hot, but the way they were done is just very, very poor and will get a monk killed more than anything. Using Pain Touch, Eagle's Claw, etc is more or less like using a very, very short-range wand. You have to hotkey a half dozen of these things. (Who seriously has space for that many?) And when you use them, your monk sprints right up into the face of the target, flat-foots himself, and uses it. I appreciate the effort, but the implication is a hilarious and clumsy death trap. As I said, you sprint up to it's face, flat-foot yourself, and give up 7-8 attacks to do what amounts to something extremely trivial overall. Odds are you're going to be beaten to death in the round you're standing there flat-footed and then in the Fugue, un-hotkey every one of those things and forget they exist.

Solution: Obviously make them like the Barbarian Widget. Have one widget that switches Stunning Fist's "mode." And given these are so trivial in general, I'd have an activation of stunning fist apply the technique effect onto every attack /of the next round./ Using one hotkey for the widget is so much nicer than the entire hotbank, and having 1 stun fist allow you to throw 6-8 attempts to land a Pain Touch on the next round instead of flat-footing yourself for 1 is more reasonable. Letting a monk throw 6-8 Eagle's Claws or Axiomic Strikes gives them a 1 round burst damage to take down a hard target. Throw a cool down on the damaging ones so they can't be spammed machine-gun style and it's good to go. Oh, and make Ki Shout level 15 when you get QP (which it keys off of), just like the others.

3. Problem: I thought I was a tank!
Yeah, but I don't have Uncanny Dodge or anything like an agile warrior does...

Solution: I'd definitely give them Uncanny Dodge. It just seems like a brainfart on the part of WotC really that they don't have it. To be honest, I'd even sue so far as dropping Defensive Awareness on them. Lvl 4 granting DA 1, Lvl 8 granting DA2, and Lvl 14 DA3 in keeping with the theme that "monks get something every level." Every "monk-fu" movie I've ever seen features scenes in which the disciple takes on gobs of attackers while blind-folded, neatly avoiding all of them or walking in the darkness, deftly dodging tripwires and deadly traps. I think it's perfectly inline for a monk to keep his Dex AC and even go so far as to deny sneak attacks in the middle of a fight.
I don't really see any problem to adding Defensive Roll to their bonus feats so they can get Epic Dodge if they want to take the road less traveled and go past level 16 monk or so. To me, that's ruining a character build-wise but some people don't mind it.
Oh, and rangers should also get Uncanny Dodge pre-level 5. If your character is "probably" expected to have Weapon Finesse, the class should probably get Uncanny Dodge before level 5.

4. Problem: Some of the abilities are just laughable.
Not really that big of an issue, but some of these are just trivially silly.

Solution: Wholeness of Body for example is a terrible joke that'd benefit from reworking it as a wisdom-based lay on hands for the monk. Deflect Arrows /never/ seems to work (ever) for some reason. Not to mention monks do have abilities that they don't get in the engine that could be easily approximated ingame. Slow fall could do something akin to a free action hemp rope? Abundant Step should let a dedicated monk shadow jump, more or less. Tongue of Sun and Moon should be taken into account if the language system ever comes online.

None of these would be terribly out of line as they don't really interfere in the monk class design of being "choose your ability to choose your party role" style, but they /do allow/ monks to actually be viable dedicated monks within reason and balance unarmed vs other styles. Dex monk still has meh damage. Wis monk still has meh ab/dmg, but can use stun fist/quivering palm somewhat (although Amia's epic yard trash mobs have silly Fort saves so, don't really expect much there). Trust me, if you go full Wis and get a stun fist/quivering palm of 38-42, then run around in epic areas, EVERYTHING will laugh off your stun fist from trash yetis to trash sahuagin to trash giants, even the caster and rogue versions will laugh it off and you'll start to wonder why you suffered leveling this build. I'd kill for an option to turn my stun fist/quivering palm to a reflex/will save at will. (Oh, and remove the level restriction on quivering palm just like death arrow and the ridiculous deathless mastery touch. Oi.) Str monk still suffers AC issues, but can be a Dev Critting Qstaff machine in response. But now with these changes, monks would be a bit more playable and don't feel left out in the cold vs. "Hi, I wear plate, have 60 AC, and crit for 150."

Anyone who says "but monks have more attacks!" as a reasoning for monk gloves being so trash as they are is being ignorant or being silly. Pretty much every X-forged weapon in the game and those don't require 16 class/character levels of dedication and roleplay. (Not to mention we don't balance weapons around weapon-master or arcane archer, both of which get their goodies are far, far less class levels. So it's just silly and farcicle to claim a class ability that's been bought and paid for with many levels needs to be "balanced" by nerfing the heck out of monk gloves unless you're going to go around downing bows and popular weapons for WMs.)

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Falling Spider
 
PostPosted: Mon, Oct 09 2017, 23:33 PM 

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Another level, another round of shifterpinions-
First thing first, since my shifter has traveled with a druid for all of his epic levels, I've got a decent idea how they feel compared to each other.. In general? I enjoy the shifter RP but given that druids can, apparently, request some pretty varied shapes, I'm kind of starting to regret maxing shifter since druid can do a lot of what shifter can do, better. Maxed Air Elemental Shape drops waaaay more damage than the Rakshasa or the upgraded Lizard form. And yes, shifters get that form too, but.. Druids also get a full suite of level 9 spells, epic spells/summons, and a fairly sturdy companion. The elemental form + premo seemed just as tanky against most mobs as the Azer, even with some armor dr stacking/merging. Idunno. The comparison isn't a great one (caster vs 'kind of good at some things' class) but there we are.

Outsider Shape:
Azer is still great. Took it to the abyss last night in a 3 person party. DR, weapon spec, massive crits on a keen x3 weapon. I really don't see how the other melee shapes are ever going to compare. Sadly, the flame weapon isn't too useful outside of the frozen wastes, since you can't change the element with BoT. (But I get why you can't, thematically.)

Slaad: This isn't useful. Is it supposed to be a low damage AC tank? Maybe a slightly different niche would make it less unusably awful? Maybe instead of phant killer (Which has never, ever landed, with my use), it takes some monk influence, gets a bit of a speed boost, maybe 1d2s of a couple elements instead of 0d0+1d6? acid. And a creature weapon that isn't 0d0 but is still weird. Maybe look at it as an upgraded drow shape like how Azer feels like an upgraded minotaur/drider. Speed, a little DR, variable damage, and a disable. Trade Phantasmal Killer for literally anything else in the game though, for real. Shadow conjuration would be better, even.

Rakshasa: The strength of rakshasa in the base game was maximizing it on a shifter that mostly had druid levels and spamming ice storm. Decent for tanking spells, I guess, but my Azer form has fairly high saves and almost 700 hp so, uh, who cares about not getting IGMS'd? I don't know what to do with this one. It feels like it's supposed to be the 'next' caster shape on from the lizardfolk, but it's lack of lackluster. I'd rather use lizardshape, actually, since divine damage is less universally resisted and you can 1-fish mobs with the stun.

All in all, outsider shape is basically Azer shape right now. I'm unsure what the slaad is even doing, but it's bad. (And if it's supposed to be an AC tank, its AC isn't good enough by merit of being a couple higher than Azer, since Azer is so sturdy.)

Upgraded Humanoid Shape:
Drow: The worst weapon-wielding melee shape is still the worst one. Azer (and minotaur and drider) use x3 weapons that can crit real nice. Cold is also, like, pretty universally resisted as well, it seems like. So you're working with a +4 sword with disarm, which doesn't seem to work on NPCs anyway. No mass crits, no improved critical, no +5 unless someone can GMW you, probably. Give it a like, handaxe or something.

Lizardfolk: Eh. It's a one-fisher shape, but it has DR. Maybe upgrade the spell foci to greater foci and be done with it. Word of faith instead of nature's balance would be cool, but maybe too strong. Nature's balance is legit one of the weakest spells in the game for its level.

Kobold: Decent if you don't have the spectre, but kind of low on the AB side. A very small AB boost and maybe 5-10 ranks in open lock/disable trap would help to push it into the rogue niche instead of trying to sit in the Very Good spectre's dex-striker role and getting very embarrassed for it.

All that said, funnily enough, Amia still has the best shifters I've seen in NWN. It's just that a lot of Amia's classes are also some of the best/strongest versions in NWN.

Quote:
Solution: Obviously make them like the Barbarian Widget. Have one widget that switches Stunning Fist's "mode." And given these are so trivial in general, I'd have an activation of stunning fist apply the technique effect onto every attack /of the next round./ Using one hotkey for the widget is so much nicer than the entire hotbank, and having 1 stun fist allow you to throw 6-8 attempts to land a Pain Touch on the next round instead of flat-footing yourself for 1 is more reasonable. Letting a monk throw 6-8 Eagle's Claws or Axiomic Strikes gives them a 1 round burst damage to take down a hard target. Throw a cool down on the damaging ones so they can't be spammed machine-gun style and it's good to go. Oh, and make Ki Shout level 15 when you get QP (which it keys off of), just like the others.

I got halfway into reading your explanation on monk widgets and thought 'why not do it like the assassin widget' but you totally nailed it.

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Maverick00053
 
PostPosted: Mon, Oct 09 2017, 23:39 PM 

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Ill take another look at the Slaad. The Rak is a tricky thing to tweak but I might be able to attach another ability or so if it fits and isnt broken.

I could use feed back on the Vampire form as well since that one hasnt been tweaked ever.

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Falling Spider
 
PostPosted: Mon, Oct 09 2017, 23:50 PM 

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Vampire suffers from the DC problem the rest do. As a wis-based shifter, my abilities are still basically fishing for ones against any mob. It's good against slightly under-leveled mobs, in my experience, but once I got to at-level stuff it's definitely a choice between Azer, Spectre, or (if I know I wont get hit with hammers or rocks) risen shape, vampire doesn't factor in much. I could see it going two directions: A slightly better 'caster' form, with some spell foci, or a regenerative melee form with slightly higher AB/AC and more vamp regen. (It also has the same problem as basically every melee shape I've encountered that isn't drider, risen, azer, or minotaur- x2 crits with no mass crits or improved crit REALLY drops its damage compared to the others.)

All-time king of standing in one spot with 15 negative energy bursts queued to keep your HP up.

To recap: It's not bad, but it can't cut it at level in the same way azer and spectre can. Also, the sunburst, sunbeam? spam in the wastes is a straight up killer. I guess it's a good form if you A. don't have outsider shape, B. hate using minotaur or drider if A, C. don't like HIPS spamming on a high-ac, 50% concealed sneak with cripstrike (what is wrong with you). It's a lot of riders on use, but it would be better served picking which direction and driving for it.

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LibrisMortis_666
 
PostPosted: Tue, Oct 10 2017, 1:31 AM 

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Maverick00053 wrote:
Ill take another look at the Slaad. The Rak is a tricky thing to tweak but I might be able to attach another ability or so if it fits and isnt broken.

I could use feed back on the Vampire form as well since that one hasnt been tweaked ever.


Vampire Form: Without my character having gear to override the form's stats (Dex / Str / Con). The Form has around 44 AC / 33AB / 3APR / Decent Damage (around 33 a hit) and the on-hit drain. Uh, a small heal spell (Negative Energy Burst + Vampiric Touch). The Immunities. A +33 DC for Dominate.

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thetangerinetornado
 
PostPosted: Tue, Oct 10 2017, 3:53 AM 

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MightNMagic wrote:
1. Problem: Gloves.

2. Problem: The Bonus Techniques.

3. Problem: I thought I was a tank!

4. Problem: Some of the abilities are just laughable.


Might,
1) Agree with the idea that current Epic Monk Gloves are underwhelming. It would also be good if they dropped as fully usable items like most equippable items, without having to be mythalled. Not a balance guru but I doubt anyone could argue that a +6AB, +5 Enhancement, 2d6 Elemental or Physical, and DC20 On Hit (from the approved list) is overpowered on any Monk build. There should be no reluctance to allow them to drop with Enhancement. It's already castable via GMW so plenty of monks are running around with +5 enhancement already.

2) The problem as I noted above is that the special attacks deliver benefits the Wisdom Monk doesn't need or trades damage for missing attacks. They hit because they are touch attacks, but your comments about giving up attacks and being flatfoot are spot on. You don't really need multiple hits of pain touch though, because they do not stack. We really need either more AB or disabling of opponents AC or Crowd Control effects via the special attacks for some duration. The widget idea is interesting but I'd still like to see bonuses scale with Wisdom and the Durations scale with level to benefit the dedicated Wisdom Monk.

3) I agree with Uncanny Dodge making sense. Make it come at Level 20 if you don't want players dipping Monk for it with few levels.

4) Not sure there's much here, although I agree they are really just RP flavor things and not very useful.

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Mask and Riddle
 
PostPosted: Wed, Oct 25 2017, 0:35 AM 

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As far as the Dwarven Defender goes, I'd love to see, as mentioned already, multiple defensive stances for different scenarios. I think of it like the inverse to the barbarian rage, different forms of defensive stances to match the enemy you are fighting. I'd replace the existing benefits of the stance with new benefits to preserve balance. Not all these are 100% thought out, just off the top of my head.

I'd give them some movement, like 25% speed.

I'd put them on a cool down, like rages.

I'd make:
- one for elemental resistance.
- one for spell resistance, or absorption (like a spell mantle that collapses when max is reached).
- one for an extra attack (perhaps with a penalty similar to rage).
- one for shielding allies (which I can not believe does not already exist), as either an AC buff to allies within X feet, or a DR aura for allies only.

Anyway, a variety of stances would do a lot for making the class more fun without unbalancing the class.


 
      
Mushidoz
 
PostPosted: Wed, Oct 25 2017, 1:00 AM 

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Mask and Riddle wrote:
As far as the Dwarven Defender goes, I'd love to see, as mentioned already, multiple defensive stances for different scenarios. I think of it like the inverse to the barbarian rage, different forms of defensive stances to match the enemy you are fighting. I'd replace the existing benefits of the stance with new benefits to preserve balance. Not all these are 100% thought out, just off the top of my head.

I'd give them some movement, like 25% speed.

I'd put them on a cool down, like rages.

I'd make:
- one for elemental resistance.
- one for spell resistance, or absorption (like a spell mantle that collapses when max is reached).
- one for an extra attack (perhaps with a penalty similar to rage).
- one for shielding allies (which I can not believe does not already exist), as either an AC buff to allies within X feet, or a DR aura for allies only.

Anyway, a variety of stances would do a lot for making the class more fun without unbalancing the class.


I really think dwarven defenders are vastly underrated though.. they need 21 con, sure, but once they have that with heavy DD investment the amount of damage they soak up is pretty damn incredible, especially if coupled with certain items. For that reason, if more stances are given to them, I think they might just become too powerful (granted their stance feat isn't that great..)

If anything was to be given to them though, I'd say a "Taunt" ala Axe from dota would be pretty cool. Is that really a priority though? Dunno..

For the record, a dwarven defender can have a total of 26 vs slashing and piercing and 31 vs bludgeon. You can also nullify a good deal of elemental damage with a shield (or a ring of power) thus further lowering the damage of weapons, and any bonus to regen adds to that damage resist a tiny bit. To that, you can also decide to go Knight Commander and further increase that damage resist AND you can have items which give % damage resist to slashing / bludgeon / piercing. I wouldn't be surprised if a dwarven defender with the proper gear could block 40 or 50 dmg when everything is calculated (10% of a crit can do that very easily I assume) or even more than that.

(12 from lvl 18 DD)
(9 from 21 con feats)
(+5 vs slashing and piercing)
(+10 vs bludgeon)
(% base resist items)
(elemental resist items to nullify the common 1d8 mythal bonus)
(Knight commander auras)

Also.. Knight commander has "Taunt"..

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Mask and Riddle
 
PostPosted: Wed, Oct 25 2017, 4:32 AM 

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Granted, and I was just spitballing. I'd just like to see more flavour in their stance, as it's boring and buggy. Even adding 25% movement would increase the stance altogether. I just think it's a chance for something cool like the rages, or monk techniques.


 
      
maglorine
 
PostPosted: Fri, Oct 27 2017, 19:33 PM 

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Mushidoz wrote:
I really think dwarven defenders are vastly underrated though.. they need 21 con, sure, but once they have that with heavy DD investment the amount of damage they soak up is pretty damn incredible, especially if coupled with certain items. For that reason, if more stances are given to them, I think they might just become too powerful (granted their stance feat isn't that great..)

For the record, a dwarven defender can have a total of 26 vs slashing and piercing and 31 vs bludgeon. You can also nullify a good deal of elemental damage with a shield (or a ring of power) thus further lowering the damage of weapons, and any bonus to regen adds to that damage resist a tiny bit. To that, you can also decide to go Knight Commander and further increase that damage resist AND you can have items which give % damage resist to slashing / bludgeon / piercing. I wouldn't be surprised if a dwarven defender with the proper gear could block 40 or 50 dmg when everything is calculated (10% of a crit can do that very easily I assume) or even more than that.

(12 from lvl 18 DD)
(9 from 21 con feats)
(+5 vs slashing and piercing)
(+10 vs bludgeon)
(% base resist items)
(elemental resist items to nullify the common 1d8 mythal bonus)
(Knight commander auras)

Also.. Knight commander has "Taunt"..


This is entirely the wrong way to evaluate DwD. Adding up the DR they get from feats available to any class, items available to any PC, and Class feats from other Classes is misleading.

Here's what they get at DwD18:

DR -/12
Defensive Stance
Defensive Awareness

Your requirements are:
Minimum 7 Levels in a Full BAB Class, more if you go with a 3/4 or 1/2 Class.
Two Pre-Epic Feats
Dwarf
Lawful (Closes off Barbarian and Bard as Multiclass Options)

In Summary:
You get DR -/7 more than a typical Barbarian 24 build, and DR -/12 more than other builds.
You get Defensive Stance which is buggy. The AI hates it and you will be working a mob and it will suddenly drop.
Defensive Awareness which is highly useful situationally depending on the opponent.

Just to compare here's what Dragon Disciples get at the same level. Of course they have class requirements as well, but DD18 is pretty common:

Dragon Disciple Changes
(by level)

1. d6 HP, +1 AC
2. +2 Str
3. Dragon Breath
4. d8 HP, +2 Str
6. d10 HP
7. +2 Con
8. +1 AC
9. Wings, +2 Int
10. +2 Str, +2 Cha, Darkvision, 50% immunity to element, immunity to paralysis, and immunity to sleep
11. d12 HP
12. +2 Str, 1 AC
15. 75% immunity to element, 1 AC, +2 Con, 24 SR
18. Free tail or vfx horns or legs, 1 AC, 100% immunity to element, +2 Con, +2 Cha, 32 SR

You be the judge. In my opinion DwD is not under-rated and some change to Defensive Stance is clearly warranted to increase it's usefulness or reliability.

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xXCrystal_Rose
 
PostPosted: Fri, Oct 27 2017, 19:49 PM 

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That much universal DR on every hit is a really big perk that adds up to tons of total damage resisted very quickly over time. I'd love to play a dwarven defender in its current state.... if not for the dwarf requirement. Some kind of Chessentan phalanx warrior, shield and spear. Defensive stance is buggy as heck though. Maybe instead of automatically breaking at the slightest movement it can apply a 90% move speed reduction while active, but activating any other combat maneuver like knockdown or expertise and stuff or drinking a potion causes it to be disabled? Also if you are not in combat for 1 round it will become disabled.


 
      
robbi320
 
PostPosted: Fri, Oct 27 2017, 21:17 PM 



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Well, I'd disagree, specifically with the 'out of combat breaks it', simply because I can see dwarves making a defensive shield wall in front of the gates of their fortress... And locking in their defensive stance.

I think the coolest, and most useful way to do it would be to have it lock as soon as you use it, until you use it again, perhaps also with a 90% movement speed decrease, so the slightest try of kiting won't absoltely wreck you.

But then, also, it does so little, to be honest. Honestly, personally, I'd prefer it simply to not have the con bonus, simply because I have a huge dislike of anything that gives you 60 hp, and removes it right afterwards again... Like, if you don't have the +12 con, it can literally kill you to break the stance.

I also think you should be able to do some stuff. Especially since while drinking the potion, you'd be losing the AC anyway, so it breaking the stance seems a bit unneccessary. Personally, I'd say leave it so you can do what you want. I mean, for the uses it has (you're not relying on the str and con, so 'all' it does is +2 saves and 4 dodge AC) it's not worth limiting you to left-clicking. You're still going to want KD, and all your other maneuvers.


 
      
DukeDublin
 
PostPosted: Sat, Oct 28 2017, 0:41 AM 

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Time for my unpopular opinions :twisted:

Dwarven Defender has a few issues that cripple the viability:
- Pick one: Tumble Dump or Weapon Master
- Defensive Stance is buggy + attribute caps
- Lawful Dwarf Alignment

It's not a large list, but that's all there needs to be to make it an undesirable choice. In theory the class offers great DR/- but mathematically AB & Crit wins the min-max war for versatility.

Monk Gloves can become a non-monk tool if buffed too far:
- Uncapped & Scaling AB for 1 rank of Monk all the way to Epic (Dex, replaces Dual Wielding)
- Flurry of Blows WM, add Shield (Str, net -1 AB for +attack/round)

Technically the most abusable cases are "Monk" builds, but Monks will benefit the least when other classes can suitably replace a few points of damage for a +6 weapon and extra attacks per round. The moment Gloves become the superior mathematical choice issues will follow. Not that the changes can't be made with these issues in mind, but without such considerations unarmed Monks could remain behind curve while newer builds thrive.

Shifter & Druid is a case where I have no experience with, but I can see where some issues lay:

-Shifter's are too comparable to what builds can achieve with just UMD
-Druids have spells, including Epic Spells & Companion choice
-HiPS is an odd inclusion for either to have available, not wrong just odd

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Last edited by DukeDublin on Sat, Oct 28 2017, 2:57 AM, edited 1 time in total.

 
      
Falling Spider
 
PostPosted: Sat, Oct 28 2017, 1:59 AM 

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Can't be a fist WM, and using a shield with monk levels turns off your unarmed bab and damage, regardless of what forumgoers here have said in the past. Can't activate flurry, either.

The 1 level of monk into epic thing already happens but is fairly niche because it's not really that good. Also, dual kamas is still the 'better' dex monk dip, basically forever, unless the devs made some truly outrageous unbalanced gloves and, well, why would you assume they'd do that?

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DukeDublin
 
PostPosted: Sat, Oct 28 2017, 5:29 AM 

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Falling Spider wrote:
Can't be a fist WM, and using a shield with monk levels turns off your unarmed bab and damage, regardless of what forumgoers here have said in the past. Can't activate flurry, either.

The 1 level of monk into epic thing already happens but is fairly niche because it's not really that good. Also, dual kamas is still the 'better' dex monk dip, basically forever, unless the devs made some truly outrageous unbalanced gloves and, well, why would you assume they'd do that?


You are right about WM, but you can definately use a shield+armour with Flurry of Blows (unarmed only).



Edit: For the sake of not making a third post, I'm not saying monks gloves are overpowered, or the builds are overpowered, or will be made overpowered. I'm just saying that at some point, you could add enough value to the gloves where it could be.

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Last edited by DukeDublin on Sat, Oct 28 2017, 18:20 PM, edited 2 times in total.

 
      
robbi320
 
PostPosted: Sat, Oct 28 2017, 11:49 AM 



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Joined: 04 Jan 2015

So, unarmed with a monk splash gains... The damage, based on monk levels, flurry (which can already be used both on one- and two-handed weapons), UBAB, all of that can already be achieved on a kama-weilder, and also just with a single splash. At a single level of monk, fists do 1d6 damage, at a 20/x2 crit. Additionally, UBAB does not really replace dualweilding, it just becomes an alternative. Just like dualweilding, you give up your shield slot. (while flurry works with a shield, UBAB does not)

What you also have to remember is that splashing into Monk will not work, actually. One Monk level gets you a nice 'weapon', but loses you the biggest boon a dexer has: Epic Dodge. You're pretty limited. Going higher into monk will always be desireable over not going into monk, unless the weapons are good enough without even taking a single level of monk. (Which might not even be the worst thing, because quite a few characters might even make sense to not be monks and still use fists as a weapon, which is really, really bad now)

A dex monk will always want to go for at least 9 levels of Monk, and will usually want to pair that with another low BAB class. (In this case, usually 5 SD or 10 Rogue) If not, you're literally losing the best defensive feat in the game.

Other classes won't gain much, because they also eplace a huge amount of AC for those extra attacks. Dipping 1 Monk, for a normal build will get you cleave, evasion, stunning fist, improved unarmed strike and flurry. Evasion is decent, but not for a dexer who will want improved evasion. Imp Unarmed Strike and stunning fist do nothing for you. Cleave can have decent application, and together with flurry is the only benefit you get. And personally, I wouldn't give up my third class for flurry. Flurry is good, but not good enough to have Epic Dodge and/or WM stuff denied.


I mean, I could be wrong, but I don't see a single case where dipping into 1 Monk would be the superior mathematical choice, unless the gloves were -seriously- overpowered. In which case you're still losing out on AC, because you can't use shields.

Now, if you want to argue against flurry of blows, there's already quite a few builds that use that, for example the spellblade with a single monk level in it. But that uses a Kama, and not fists, and will always be superior with a kama, because Monk gloves are usually stronger than a wizard can buff, whereas you can make a weapon that is just mass crits, loads of damage and other stuff, and you buff the keen, +5 and elemental damage on.


 
      
LibrisMortis_666
 
PostPosted: Sat, Nov 18 2017, 0:50 AM 

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Location: Georgia, United States.

Some time has passed. Any updates have been considered? Just curious!

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Mask and Riddle
 
PostPosted: Thu, Nov 30 2017, 1:40 AM 

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Been thinking about the Dwarven Defender's stance.

I think it should be changed to a combat mode used at will, and it's only benefit is a dodge bonus (+1) aura. This could be accompanied by a movement reduction if needed for balance/flavour (50%?).

The idea would be that allies close to the DwD gain some of the benefit of their awareness and being a brute tank. Also, this would enable a Dwarven party to "form a wall", stacking their bonuses in the aura for themselves and anyone close to them.

Also, encourage Dwarven parties, or dwarf recruitment into factions.

Whadda ya think?


 
      
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