AMIA ARCHIVE • View topic - Two Weapon fighting and Two-Handed Weapons

Hello. Most people probably know that I know as much about DnD Rules and balancing as I know about Quantum Physics but:

I thought I could maybe get the discussion started, since this whole "A shield is pretty much the only viable choice"-Thing is the only thing that really, really bugs me.

So... Maybe anyone has an Idea how to make it viable to actually use a two-handed sword as it is supposed to be used, not just with Monkey Grip and a Tower shield. Or even Two-Weapon fighting. Or for the love of god, playing a monk without the Kama-and-shield combo and actually beeing good. Seriously, when roll a monk I want to punch people.

The first Idea I had at work some time ago was fixing the Parry skill and give TWF some kind of Custom Feat to build up on that but... I don't think even god himself could fix parrying

So maybe anyone here will come up with a good idea. A man can dream.

One method would be to make parry work much like tumble, for every 5 ranks you get 1 AC, but only if you're not using a shield. I'd think it fair to only give half that when using a two handed weapon personally, for balance sake.

This way, a person invested into parry can use actual ranks to get 6 more AC. That's a +3 tower or +4 large shield equivalent when using 1 or 2 weapons. They'd get 3 AC when using a greatsword.

I'm no balance guru myself, but just a suggestion.

Unless I'm thinking wrong, monks lose almost all benefits from using a shield, but otherwise, I agree about that shields are the way to go... And I'm saddened as well. Two extra attacks versus 7 or 8 AB... At best, it increases your damage by a half, just like two handing. So, if there's a way to get maybe... 4 AC while going that, or perhaps even an AB bones (or less of a penalty for TWF) might put it over the edge, making them similar...

Monks DO lose Wis AC when using a shield. They lose speed and Monk BAB too.

I'm thinking maybe cap the AC to 5? I mean... dex based highest AC is 61 (without adding all the silly things like haste, MA, etc, and using a tower shield, which is weird but it happens). STR based highest AC is 55. This wouldn't affect anyone using a shield, so they stay the same. Two weaponed dexer gets 53 now, but... if they invested into parry could hit 58. Two handed str with plate can get to 47 now, but... with +5 AC, can get to 52?

Maybe +4 is a better cap as Robbi said. But, that's up to the balance folks anyway, if this becomes a "thing".

Scrap the things I said about monks then, apparently I know even less than what I thought I knew :/

But yeah, I'm digging the Parry giving AC idea, although... That would mean more Skilldump.

freaxxshow1338 wrote:

Scrap the things I said about monks then, apparently I know even less than what I thought I knew :/

But yeah, I'm digging the Parry giving AC idea, although... That would mean more Skilldump.

More skilldump yes, but it requires more skill points too. This forces people to make a choice.... will they give up spellcraft to get extra AC? Discipline? Essentially too, it inadvertantly pushes for more rogue levels since that's how you can get a lot of skills, or for higher INT, which can affect other aspects of a build too.

That Guy wrote:

More skilldump yes, but it requires more skill points too. This forces people to make a choice.... will they give up spellcraft to get extra AC? Discipline? Essentially too, it inadvertantly pushes for more rogue levels since that's how you can get a lot of skills, or for higher INT, which can affect other aspects of a build too.

Yeah, thats what came to my mind instantly too, but I think its better than nothing, because shields beeing mandatory really is... kinda sad if you ask me :/

I agree, I'd like to see more two-handers (and have them be more useful) as well as dual wielders!

... Honestly I just want variety. At the moment, if you use a two handed Weapon at some point someone is gonna ask "So... When are you getting monkey grip?" Which is.... ugh..

I personally don't think dexers should benefit, because as balance-wise they are already stronger than any two-weapon fighter or sword and shield style character.

I have long since concluded that the way to make shields less prominent is to limit the bonus to AC they give. Up to 8 AC for little to no cost whatsoever is beyond stupid -- especially on a server that limits characters to level 30.

If shields gave +1 / +2 + / +3 AC (EXAMPLE) without the extra +5, and had damage resist sources / saves / whatever instead, then their value would be downgraded to that of dual wields and two-handed wielding, without having to script anything (like fixing parry or adding feats). They would still give up to +3 AC (which is incredible, by the way, better than a certain epic feat), but would give utility at the cost of not having a slightly stronger dmg output or having low AB extra attacks that could result in more hits in if you are lucky with 20 rolls. Less AC would also give value to dual wields and two-handed users in the process.

Also, to your point shadowfiend.. the dexers that are "at the top" are usually characters that use shields while being dex-based.

I don't think nerfing shields is the way to go either... Many str based characters already rely on shields to be viable, nerfing the shields would then make them unviable.

The problem is that two-handed weapons and two weapon fighting is unviable, but making those characters not having to rely shields, that doesn't sound like the right way to go either, to me anyway.

Quote:

Also, to your point shadowfiend.. the dexers that are "at the top" are usually characters that use shields while being dex-based.

Not necessarily true. Monks don't use shields, for instance.

I think if we'd nerf shields, a huge part of the server would have to be redone, and clerics would suddenly be a lot stronger, unless you'd change that spell as well...

The server is made with certain stats in mind. Which is why removing tumble also doesn't work. Monsters would be way too strong if you had 5 or 6 AC less. You'd get shredded, with no chance alone. And while I know a few people on here would like that, if you couldn't go out of town alone, the server we have is built around certain things.

Shadowfiend wrote:

The problem is that two-handed weapons and two weapon fighting is unviable, but making those characters not having to rely shields, that doesn't sound like the right way to go either, to me anyway.

If not making shields neccessary is not the way to go, how should we make shields... not neccessary?

For two-handers: Either through a custom feat? or just baseline, have them apply 1.5x effects of divine might and the power attack line. Just sort of lean into the whole damage thing.

For dual wielding: Either make parry something that functions, or give dual wielders a small AC boost somehow.

I don't think giving twohanders more damage really is something that would solve the problem. And power attack is so underused, since in most cases a twohander will need to use Expertise to make up for the lack of shield. Which is why I'm thinking either AC or AB for both would be the way to go. You'd have way more damage and AB, at the loss of AC, or you could use Expertise, which would knock your AB down, and still not give you more AC than a towershield, but you'd have superior damage.

I'm talking about around 2 AB, or 3-4 AC. Not enough to make one always superior, but it might make it viable, if perhaps a bit less powerful than a shield.

Quote:

If not making shields neccessary is not the way to go, how should we make shields... not neccessary?

What I mean is that there is something wrong with the trade-off, two-weapon fighting or dual wielding would need some sort of buff... I don't really know, honestly, but my fear is that by making two-weapon fighting more viable we end up making sword and board STR characters less viable.

They wouldn't be -less- viable, just, the gap would be narrowed. They would still have more AC, just more like 2, or 3, rather than... 8.

robbi320 wrote:

I think if we'd nerf shields, a huge part of the server would have to be redone, and clerics would suddenly be a lot stronger, unless you'd change that spell as well...(1)

The server is made with certain stats in mind. Monsters would be way too strong if you had 5 or 6 AC less. You'd get shredded, with no chance alone. And while I know a few people on here would like that, if you couldn't go out of town alone, the server we have is built around certain things. (2)

(1) Yup, that spell would need to be changed.

(2) I don't see that as a negative, personally. Less soloing, more partying, seems like a great thing to me. Aside from some very specific places, the end game dungeons aren't really that difficult. Also, there are dual wielding and two-handed fighting characters on the server at the moment (and archers too). They do not have that +8 to AC -at the moment- either, and they're doing fine. Seriously, being able to solo everything is -not- how it should be on a RP multiplayer game.
--------

Here are the positives if we nerf shields:

a) Shields still give great AC and would probably be desirable still (because AC and AB is king, and 3 AC for free is amazing).

b) Because shields don't give retarded amount anymore, people now have a decent choice to make, rather than being forced to go shields because 8 AC is just way too much. This would create versatility in fighting style.

c) Less people able to solo, bigger need for parties.

d) Monks stay the same, but in pvp, their targets have -5 AC compared as how it is now (mages and dexers and str users included!..). High AC monks also become valuable tanks for other classes / fighting styles to do their job in the back.

e) Dual-wielding characters are in the same situation as monks here, not gaining AC, but essentially having their low AC attacks have more chances of hitting shield users (which is 95% of the population?)

f) This opens up the potential for heavy dwarven defender investment to have untradable shields with +5 AC bonus on, without making them overly broken against mobs (since they are already designed with shield users in mind). They could then serve as tanks while damager dealers / archers / everything else do what their role is meant to be.

g) No need for scripting new skills or feats.

------ Negatives

h) All shield items (drops, stuff sold, etc.) will need to be remade

i) The possibility of mythalling +5 on a shield will need to be removed or tweaked.

The fact that pretty much everyone except monks and some rare dedicated two-handers / dual wielders (and archers) use a shield is a clear indication that they are way too powerful. It isn't the other fighting styles that are the problem, it's shields that are too strong vs. the "penalties" they give.

This would destabilize all the dungeons on the server that are designed for the current top AC's. I get your point about "not soloing on an RP server", but... I wouldn't prefer to see shields and clerics take a nerf. Instead, solve the root of the problem and give a small boost to those that don't use a shield. I'd even say give 2 handers a +2 AB too, but limit their AC increase.

The thing is, if we can't solo, there's a few classes that become 100% pointless, all of a sudden. Pale Masters and evil clerics, as an example. Unless you are 100% super secretive about it, you will need to find a group of other evils. And that is difficult in higher levels. In general, my experience (which is from having lots of characters end at 20-25) says that you'll have a hard time finding a party in those levels if you're banned from the main hub and don't have a close group of friends. (that main hub being Bendir Dale, which has a lot of evil banned)

I mean, to an extent, yes, but then you could argue for RP's sake, we should remove all dungeons, since it would drive people to be in events more, and be in a group more.

Also, I would like to emphasize that my experience from about two and a half years on here, is that a lot of people do not take this server as a 'RP server', and much more as 'RP lite'. Hell, I've heard that term on the forums a lot as well. Yes, a huge amount is RP, but a lot of that is social RP, then another large amount of the playerbase (and I'd argue this is the second largest group on this server) is on here for the RP of playing low level characters and grouping up with other lowbies. They try different concepts, level them for a while, then discard them. That's not to say they don't RP, but they spend a huge amount of time leveling, rather than RPing in Bendir Dale. And now, if nobody can solo, I'd hazard to guess that quite a few people (including me) wouldn't enjoy this server as much.

Different people hope to get different things from this server. Completely removing the ability to solo would annoy me quite a bit, because I tend to prefer to use the time I have that is in times where the server is most active to actually RP, rather than looking for a group to hunt with. Hunting, currently can be done by anyone, anytime. Rp with people can't. It balances it out.
And I barely ever see a group that RPs while grinding. (I mean, beyond running through and left-clicking) They are two almost opposite things.

Basically, tl;dr, if you remove grinding, you're literally breaking the whole server, which at our current playerbase is not good. It's just like removing tumble-dump, like removing multiclassing, it would be like removing dex-bonus to AC. It breaks the server. On a new server, it might work, but on a server this big, it would lose so many players, and probably not gain us (m)any.

So you're saying that only shield users can solo stuff? If only shield users can solo things, clearly shields are too powerful. However, to be perfectly honest, I'm sure soloing would still be very possible, just a bit less brainless. I have a side character who's level 26 or so and he can do fine in many places despite having a HORRIBLE build (and wearing a two-handed weapon). That character has like 35 AC and his main stat (str) isn't maxed and his gear is horrible. When he gets in a party, or just one or two other people, he can hold his very easily, actually.. Taking away some AC from shields would not kill the server or disbalance it. .... And I still think being able to solo everything is a silly concept.

Also, I suggested "No bonus at all other than base shield AC", but that doesn't mean it's the magical number either. I have a small shield at the moment on Saya, and I -very easily- dodge pretty much everything on the server (that amount of AC is even overkill). That's -2 AC, and I'm sure people could live with a -2 AC penalty or even more. On the other hand, some might want to consider going for 2handed weapons or dual wields if they suffered that -2 AC.

Now, yes, Saya is a dexer. That's what she does, she dodges stuff. Yes, some people won't have as much AC and that shield will change their life but, I don't know.. way I see it, if someone currently wearing a shield suddenly realises that removing X amount of shield AC to their character makes it so that they now get hit by everything (unlikely), then maybe that character's actually -supposed- to be wearing a two-handed weapon to begin with, and only playing a certain way because of the unbalance that are +5 tower shields. The same way Saya's job is to dodge stuff and sing a song for the damaging peeps to fight on, their job shouldn't be to dodge shit up on their own AND deal ridiculous damage. They're strength based dudes, whose job is to dish out damage, while people who can't dish out damage are there to prevent their damager from being hit.

You do make a good point about certain evil classes, though. But hey, I've been on record saying that we're at a point on the server where DMs should deal with the evil and that we should stop wasting our resources (here read good talented players) on evil characters. Then again, it's not like palemasters are supposed to be welcomed, loved and easy to play either. Even among evil people palemasters are hated and shunned..

P.S. I always RP when I go out in dungeons. It's pretty much part of the fun to go out <.< I mean, seriously, that's pretty much the core of Dungeons and Dragons that you roleplay as someone who goes on adventures and through dungeons...

They aren't 2 opposite things, they are things that should always go hand in hand! ^^

Quote:

P.S. I always RP when I go out in dungeons. It's pretty much part of the fun to go out <.< I mean, seriously, that's pretty much the core of Dungeons and Dragons that you roleplay as someone who goes on adventures and through dungeons...

They aren't 2 opposite things, they are things that should always go hand in hand! ^^

I don't, or at least not more than I have to because of 2 reasons:

1) The combat in NWN is boring, I'd rather get done with it as fast as possible and be free to rp.

And 2) Buffs only last so long, I'd use their up time to their fullest extent.

Quote:

So you're saying that only shield users can solo stuff?

No, mages can solo without shields by using summons. Druids, and clerics can probably do it too.

Additionally it isn't exactly fair to only talk about shields about to solo whilst ignoring the actual pros of both two handers and two weapon fighting, both of which are designed to output more damage then your standard sword and board. A shield user AND a two hander/weaponer would beat a boss quicker then two shield users generally would.

That being said AI is wonky as hell when it come to sniping low ac builds and it definitely wouldn't hurt to buff non-shield users by a bit, given the ability to actually defend yourself with only one or two weapons in real life which isn't really present in NWN mechanically.
((P.S If this sort of thing gets buffed and it somehow affects my bladesinger balance, I'd take a nerf to compensate somewhere as there suppose to get shield AC as dodge anyway))

lilmarcat wrote:

two handers and two weapon fighting, both of which are designed to output more damage then your standard sword and board. A shield user AND a two hander/weaponer would beat a boss quicker then two shield users generally would.

my brother and i both had fighter/dwarven defender builds. mine used greataxe his used dwarven waraxe and tower shield (my weapon had more elemental damage btw). same STR score with max from buffs, same feats: weapon focus-epic weapon specialization & improved crit. all the same buffs including GMW and flame weapon. our damage was virtually the same, both standard dmg rolls and crits. maybe i averaged 2-3 more damage than he did? maybe. granted, this was on a different server, but numbers are still numbers. i've long thought 2handed weapons should receive 2x STR bonus instead of 1.5x. seriously, how much harder can you swing a baseball bat with both hands as opposed to one?

i can't comment on 2 weapon style, as i've never played a dual wielder, but limiting the ac bonus from shields would seem the easier route opposed to overhauling 2 handed and dual wielding penalties/bonuses.

also:
Armor, gloves, and small-medium weaponry may have a maximum of 4 benign (positive) powers. Large weaponry may have a maximum of 5 beign powers.

Equippable items may have a maximum of 3 benign powers.

assuming shields fall into the second category of 3 powers (i haven't done much mythalling, almost none actually) that means sword and board can have 7 buffs from their hands, dual wielders can have 8, 2 handers only 5.

i'm totally in favor of beefing up 2 handed some in some way.

Quote:

assuming shields fall into the second category of 3 powers (i haven't done much mythalling, almost none actually) that means sword and board can have 7 buffs from their hands, dual wielders can have 8, 2 handers only 5.

You have to take into account that you can get monkeygrip on Amia. So if two-handed weapons were to be buffed, you'd need to do something to balance out monkeygrip.

But adding a x2 str bonus to two-handers, that sounds like a good idea.

Monkey Grip already has some balancing to it, such as the Damage Penalty and, dependent on your character's size, one or two additional penalties that are slapped onto the Bonded weapon.

Cyan wrote:

assuming shields fall into the second category of 3 powers (i haven't done much mythalling, almost none actually) that means sword and board can have 7 buffs from their hands, dual wielders can have 8, 2 handers only 5.

I think shields have four powers. Two Handers can attain more powers if they go through the process of Monkey Grip for the shield and have an additional backup weapon for when you don't need/want a shield, you just take the hit of the balance penalties (which i'm personally in favour of dropping the requirement for two penalties for normal-sized humanoids such as Humans, Elves etc.) I'm also in favour of increasing the x() Strength Bonus as others have stated.

All the yes because I am a MG user. >.>

Well, I'd personally think it's better to buff two handers in general than buffing Monkey Grip. Monkey Grip already pretty much is a must-have for twohanders.

Also, the amount of powers you have a is a bit treacherous. For example, dualweilders have to slap twice as many buffs for damage and AB on their weapons. And then you also deal (at identical weapons) 1.5x damage, because the second hand only gets two attacks. You could even argue that it's more like 1.4x damage, if you use haste a lot. If you use a relatively standard weapon (damage bonus, +4 enchant (or mass crit instead), +5 AB, keen) you're at the max, which you will copy on a second weapon. You're not actually getting any new slots, you're just filling them up with things you already have. Only if you actually give up damage for something else (like abilities, not much else you can put on there, since weapons can't really have anything defensive on them)

I'd even say twohanders are barely any better, since once again, you're not getting so muich defense for those slots. You're more likely to just get like... a bit of mass crits for the weapon.

Offense does not solve either defense problems, because if you get killed so much faster (which a shield does, since 7 AC is huge amount. That is massive. Like, 7 AC is a 35% hit chance, and it will usually mean an extra attack has a higher than 5% chance to hit.
3 AC would mean a difference of 4 AC. (5 from a towershield) If then that dualweilder uses expertise, he'd still the the same damage per hit, but he's quite a bit less likely to hit anything as well.

Then again, I don't know what a good value would be, but I don't think either really are in a good place, or we wouldn't have almost everyone running around witha shield, and everyone else being stuck with either a summon or having to look for a group, because it's a lot more difficult to solo without a shield. (Yes, maybe it's possible, but it's really damn difficult.)

What about an Two-Weapon fighting custom Epic Feat? Something like

Prerequisite: Ambidexterity, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting; Dex 25

When wielding Two-Weapons, the character gains +3 Dodge AC.

?

Edit: Maybe the Dex 25 requirement is stupid, since this would be a wet dream for the already strong Epic-Dodgers...

How about like. While dual-wielding, every 6 base ranks of parry gives you 1 shield AC. Requires 15 dexterity OR strength to function, so it's not giving every wizard a bunch of free AC.

Two-handers gain half this bonus. So TWF would top out at 6 shield ac for 32 ranks and 29 levels, and two-handers would hit 3. They still gain some defenses, with TWFers hitting up to a +5 small shield, while large and tower shield users still topped the AC charts, and hit that top much earlier.

To be fair I'd dual wield a lot more on Lyelanna if she wasn't stuck with a fullplate because of her lackluster dex (and I still sometimes dualwield anyway). You can change pretty seamlessly between dualwielding and sword and shield, after all. I have found switching between the two is a viable strategy, if you find yourself not being targeted by mobs then just change to dualwielding and the resulting difference in damage is very noticeable. Depending on your opponent I think dualwielding could make a noticeable difference in PvP too, in a fight between two str builds it's most often about who can deal the most damage in the least time, and landing hits is most often not the issue.

To be honest the difference in damage is so noticeable that I am considering to get Lyelanna a second piece of gear that allows her to use dualwielding when I want to, the problem is that I'll need a lot more dex gear, and will have to sacrifice con in the process.

My point here is that if you choose to only dual-wield, then yes you will have a bad time, but you can get the dualwielding feats and the shield feat and combine them without too much hassle. A sneak dualwielding can land a lot more sneak attacks than a non-dualwielding sneak, and while yes they will be an easier target, they will do more damage. Same goes for a str-based warrior type that dualwields, they'll do more damage but they will be easier targets.

This means they will be weaker alone, but stronger in groups. That does not make dual-wielding bad, it makes dual-wielding badly suited for soloing.

Shadowfiend wrote:

You can change pretty seamlessly between dualwielding and sword and shield, after all. I have found switching between the two is a viable strategy, if you find yourself not being targeted by mobs then just change to dualwielding and the resulting difference in damage is very noticeable.

To be honest the difference in damage is so noticeable...

Problem with switching between two-handers / shield to dual wielding is that it classifies as a bug exploit. When you switch weapons in the middle of battle, your attack round gets refreshed, so you can have an infinite round of neverending attacks at your max AB (not entirely sure on the AB, but close). So yes, of course you think the dmg is noticeable -- it triggered the bug and gave you free attacks.

It's a shame, because I too would use that technique, having my shield up when dealing with the enemies' first full AB attacks, and then switch to dual to finish the end of the round against their lower AB attacks. Sadly, that's not something that we should do, because it is an exploit.

Does Amia not give you an AB penalty when you swap weapons in combat? What server am I thinking of?

I know of the exploit, but I think there's still a difference between switching from weapon & shield to weapon & weapon the way Shadowfiend mentioned and abusing the mechanics. I trust DMs will start with a warning if they see someone abusing it before chopping their arms off.

About the topic itself, I don't think we should try give AC to Two-handers and Dual-wielders.
They excel in offense, so it's that part that should be boosted.
Maybe Two-handers could get Str x3 to dmg.
4 attacks instead of 2 for off-hand. (Not sure if that is in anyway possible though)

Large weapons having one more mythal slot is something I already like, aswell as Warforged weapons being more powerful than epic one-handers, but Monkey-grip kinda ruins that image of Two-handers getting any advantage over one-handers with a shield.

Monkey Grip never should have been a thing. Sorry to all you MG'ers, but even Tormak said so (and I think he's the one who did it or was part of its implementation).

Mikaz wrote:

Large weapons having one more mythal slot is something I already like, aswell as Warforged weapons being more powerful than epic one-handers,

I think epic two-handed weapons are more powerful, but I am not a 100% sure.

If they get more mythal slots then MG should be rebalanced.

The thing is, a monkey-gripping twohander already is more powerful than a normal board'n'sword onehander. Which is why (and I only just realized it now) balancing twohanders would be difficult. You already have a situation where the twohander is straight up better.

Of course, MG doesn't really solve the problem, because you're not really two-handing anymore...

What I ment with more mythal slots is Large weapons(Greatsword, Heavy Flail and such) getting 5 slots when Medium weapons(Longsword, bastard sword, scimitar, rapier, etc) getting 4 slots. I didin't mean giving Large weapons more slots than they already have.

Monkey-grip is probably never changing or going away, so we should probably think how to work in any new changes with it in place. If we just change the two-handers Str modifier, which is reduced to x1 with MG, we could leave MG as it was but still boost two-handers.

Shadowfiend wrote:

Mikaz wrote:

Large weapons having one more mythal slot is something I already like, aswell as Warforged weapons being more powerful than epic one-handers,

I think epic two-handed weapons are more powerful, but I am not a 100% sure.

If they get more mythal slots then MG should be rebalanced.

MG is a bit... iffy to be frank.

That being said, epic two handers receive a higher damage bonus (usually 2d6) and mass crit then you get on a one handed weapon.

Additionally to what Tarnus says, a twohander with MG has a Mythal slot more, can choose the downsides, meaning you take ones that hurt you least, and crits multiply base damage, and take .5x damage away. So, on a scythe, on a crit, you'll still do 3.5x str mod...

Any buffs to Twohanders damage will also buff MG to levels beyond what it already is at...

Only if it applies while monkey-gripping.

I don't think you change that. Maybe you could make a non-MG weapon have 0.5x damage extra... Not sure if that would work. So, at 14 str you'd get 7 extra damage on your weapon... And a MG weapon would have -7 damage (as now) and just not have the 7 extra damage...

Obligatory "One Handed Weapon, No Shield" post. It's like two handing but without any benefit.

I humbly submit that if there is a feeling 2HD and 2WP warriors are in need of something as compared to 1HD and shield that whatever "it" is that "it" not be achieved by taking something away from the weapon and shield style.

Nor should 2HD and 2WP get some sort of artificial and counter intuitive defences such as free AC or whatever. If a person chooses to forgo the tactical advantage of a shield in favour of an oversized weapon then it stands to reason the difference should be an appreciable difference in the damage output somehow.

Given that great weapons historically evolved for a very brief time in order to penetrate the heavy armours of their day it seems to me that the fact they already get a multiplier to their STR bonus that what is needed is an armour piercing aspect.

I have no idea whats technically possible with the NWN engine but given that this server already pretty much tears up the manual and writes its own I will just postulate some ideas of the top of my head.

-----

:arrow:

A reduction in the physical DR of the target if it has one to each hit from a great weapon, or a one pip increase to the crit threat range on hit if it doesn't have physical DR

-----
:arrow:

A flat damage increase by way of upgrading the innate damage dice one pipe, D10 becoming D12 for example
-----
:arrow:

A flat critical damage increase by way of upgrading the innate multiplier one pipe, x2 becoming x3 for example
-----
:arrow:

A flat damage increase by scripting each hit to calculate damage as if being under the effect of "power attack" feat for damage purposes only, I.E. just the +5 damage not the -5 AB.

I do feel that great weapons are lack lustre as they are and feel that an apparent substantial damage hike will more than make up for the loss of up to 8AC and whatever other magical properties a shield might hold.

But the remedy is to make greatweapon using be worth the trade off not to make shield use, useless.

In respect of two weapon use, I feel the swapping out of a shield for an extra attack is balanced, or rather would be if parry was a thing. If its not on this server then perhaps that skill needs a rework but essentially if you dump a shield to get an extra weakened attack that's a style choice more than a tactical necessity.

Should be noted, maybe, that dual wielding does have more benefits than the extra weakened attack, and thus isn't in, I'd say, as bad a shape as two-handing may-or-may-not be. (I've seen a small AB boost when two-handing elsewhere, that might be good?)

Dual wielding as just a standard issue, I don't know, fighter? Isn't the world's greatest idea, sure, but it does have pretty good benefits on anyone else:

Rogues, for instance, use their extra attacks less as '1d6+half-strength' and more as 'more sneak attacks.' Rangers and Bane of Enemies is similar. Those dual-wielding WMs that exist are getting extra opportunities to drop their boosted crits on people, etc.

That said, though, some other ideas I've had: Parry rework. Rather than giving AC, since dual wielding epic dodgers are probably fine on the AC front, and Shields are a better defense, that's what they're for, maybe:

:arrow:

a small amount of physical DR while in parry mode. 5% for every 10 base parry ranks, 1-3% for every 10 boosted parry ranks? It's not AC, and it's not a huge boost, but it's noticeable and reinforces the idea of parry mode as a sort of dexer/duelist's defensive mode.

:arrow:

Alternatively, a damage bonus when in parry mode, scaling with parry ranks, since you're dropping your APR for it.

:arrow:

Improved Two-Weapon Fighting gives you the missing half of your strength score to damage on your offhand.

Quote:

A flat critical damage increase by way of upgrading the innate multiplier one pipe, x2 becoming x3 for example

As much as I would absolutely love to play an x6 crit scythe WM that can hit for people's entire HP bar, laughing the whole time, I feel like everyone else would too.

Yes, there is a possibility to change the entire game mechanic through scripts, feat implementing, code fiddling, and so on. But the sad reality is that the easiest, fastest -AND- most efficient way of making shield+sword more in line with the alternatives is to just nerf the amount of +AC they give because 8 AC for -free- is downright overpowered and eclipses the other styles. The only coding it would involve would be to fiddle a tiny bit with the mythal system so that +5 shields cannot be made anymore (and perhaps make it so that cleric spells don't work as good).

I don't get you guys.. Your ideas are good, but there's a clear problem with shields being too good, everyone seem to admit shield+sword is just downright superior, but you're all scared of doing what's necessary. I understand maybe 95% of all characters on the server use shields (including two-handed users......................) but the goal here is to be impartial and deal with the problem. All the coding and scripting necessary to buff everything that isn't sword+shield is not something that's worth doing with the current developer resources the server has, and it isn't the most logical route either. It would be -way too much work-. The problem is with shields, not everything else.

The only side effect of nerfing shields to an acceptable level would be that some characters would now need to find the help of other party members to solo dungeons to farm epics (that they could request with DCs anyway), leading to potentially better dungeoning experiences for all those involved.. <.<

Think it's time to remove the band-aid (yes, even if my own character wears a shield).

It'd have further reaching consequences, and I say this as having played servers where shields are weaker than they are here, significantly so, for the better part of a decade. Assuming it's a bigger nerf than dropping shield max ac to +4, which wont do anything, really... what you'll get is stronger casters, more epic dodgers, non-dex non-caster melees building for higher HP/DR and suffering for it. Oh, and every dungeon will get harder at the high end. If you nerf magic vestment to +3, presumably, scaled to hit +3 where they'd usually hit +5, lowbies are going to be hit too. (and clerics lose one of their unique buffs, impacting party viability over wiz/sorc/bard/druid)

On the topic of forcing people to party, that only hurts people that: Play during off hours (not american prime-time or weekends), don't play with a partner/ooc group, aren't in with the current factions, and- this one doesn't seem important, but will be- play off-meta characters. If everything suddenly gets harder due to not 'getting 8 ac for free' tolerance for people getting carried will drop.

Hell, I could say the same thing about fullplate, right? People that use plate are getting 14 ac for free? Should we nerf FP, too?

Edit: this is ignoring the pvp implications of, if your 95% shield user number is right, the vast majority of the server suddenly getting weaker for what is essentially no reason. Still wont make two-handing more viable though. Less so, maybe! If AC suddenly drops, and we all know that people capital N 'Need' AC, any further loss will be unacceptable.

Mushidoz wrote:

8 AC for -free- is downright overpowered and eclipses the other styles.

I disagree, I would say in the first instance if you have obtained a +5 shield you have spent time and effort to get that and as I understand the crafting system here putting +5 on something severely limits what else you can put on it.
So its hardly consequence free, and furthermore if you nerf shields you would not as you assert save coding and effort because any nerf to shield AC would mean an instant and very powerful buff to casters particularly Clerics who only need to be lvl 15 to cast +5 shield at will thus allowing them to use heavily enchanted gear knowing they can temp buff +5 to it.

Mushidoz wrote:

Your ideas are good, but there's a clear problem with shields being too good, everyone seem to admit shield+sword is just downright superior

I don't think you could quantify that and back it up, I would say that its your opinion but I would actually say its more clear that 2HD is just not mechanically worth it compared to what is the base line weapon and shield and that's quite different from saying weapon and shield are "OP"

Furthermore as a Cleric main I can currently reach 43AC buffed, that could be increased somewhat as I only have dodge 3 boots and once I get a few more level my shield spell with give me a little more deflection but even with my +5 armour and shield I am hardly OP and get rekt a lot by the 20 crit spam just like everyone else.

So again I say lets look at making 2HD better, and not weapon and shield worst.

Mushidoz wrote:

but you're all scared of doing what's necessary.

Whilst I obviously disagree with your entire premise it is this snippet that nudged me to reply, I would suggest and ask that you stick to rational arguments instead of ad hominem statements, just because others feel or think differently about a topic doesn't mean they are "scared" they just disagree with you...I mean really.....this is just baiting.

Falling Spider wrote:

Edit: this is ignoring the pvp implications of, if your 95% shield user number is right, the vast majority of the server suddenly getting weaker for what is essentially no reason. Still wont make two-handing more viable though.

This.

*Continues to silently watch from a distance*

InquisitorBiologos wrote:

I say lets look at making 2HD better, and not weapon and shield worst.

InquisitorBiologos wrote:

I say lets look at making 2HD better, and not weapon and shield worst.

I agree with that! I'm not good at balancing stuff or the like, but I think this is the right direction to go!

yimmi wrote:

InquisitorBiologos wrote:

I say lets look at making 2HD better, and not weapon and shield worst.

I agree with that! I'm not good at balancing stuff or the like, but I think this is the right direction to go!

+2

Two Weapon fighting and Two-Handed Weapons

Who is online