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PassionateShadow
 
PostPosted: Wed, Oct 18 2017, 20:59 PM 

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I think there should bw a 'version' of SJ for folks with shadowy prcs to get greater sj- they are after all masters of shadows on thier own right.


I also think if you take 20 lvls of sj they should be rewarded with way more Sj uses or personally unlimied but I think some people might think unlimited is 'op'


As for flight it's so weird it's not even an even number its a 5 uses yesterday. I think it's silly for creatures with wings to have a limitation on how many times they can fly.

Discussions pls?

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Dark Immolation
 
PostPosted: Wed, Oct 18 2017, 23:32 PM 

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Some sort of cooldown, mitigated by Constitution, could make sense for Flight. Similar to what Dragon Disciples have for their breath abilities. It's two birds with one stone, really. PC's no longer "run out" of flight attempts, but instead have to take a breather between them. It also gets rid of the ability to kite non-flying PCs as much.

I can't really speak for Shadowdancers, but ultimately shadowjump and flight are the same mechanic through different means. Maybe the same cool down that is used for their Shadow Daze ability could be used for Shadowjump? That would reward those who take more levels of it with the ability to jump more often. It's unlimited for everyone at that point, but a cooldown likely changes its use as a tool for a lot of SD's. Unless you're very high level SD, it's going to be your tool for initiating a fight or escaping. No more blipping across the battlefield. At least not as fast as you used to be able to, in very limited spurts.

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Alaria-
 
PostPosted: Thu, Oct 19 2017, 13:08 PM 

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Not all wingythings have the same circumstances for flight!! Avariel are exceptionally light with hollow bones that let them sustain flight for long periods of time with ease regardless of constitution. Dragon disciples physically very different and I do not think it's fair to enforce such a system when they're that different.

Lyraesel is simply born with it! ;)


 
      
Gravemaskin
 
PostPosted: Thu, Oct 19 2017, 15:03 PM 

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Pretty sure the limits are there more to restrict exploits than for balance. Though the low number of uses for flight could also be explained as a balance thing, since it's a power you essentially get "for free". If it was unlimited uses or even the same as SD there would be a decent mechanical reason to make every bow user you make an avariel or other winged race, as you get it without feat or class investment. For the same reasons more uses would be broken on an SD, as you could potentially attack people from max range with your bow and spam hips, then if they ever got anywhere close, simply shadowjump away and hide again as many time as needed.

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Dark Immolation
 
PostPosted: Thu, Oct 19 2017, 18:30 PM 

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Gravemaskin wrote:
For the same reasons more uses would be broken on an SD, as you could potentially attack people from max range with your bow and spam hips, then if they ever got anywhere close, simply shadowjump away and hide again as many time as needed.


Hence the suggestion and need for a cooldown, if it were made unlimited. Using the Shadow Daze formula for it, that's once every 210 seconds for level 10 SD. It maxes out at once every 30 seconds, with level 20 SD. It could be increased further, if necessary. I personally feel that 5 rounds would probably give you enough time to run up to someone from max range. And I hate kiting, in any game, really. Scaredy bitches, 1v1 me mid Currently, you can get up to 10 uses of Shadowjump, and you can spam that instantly. Having 10 to use as fast as you want is actually a lot more dangerous and annoying in PvP than unlimited, but you can only do it every couple of minutes.

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Not all wingythings have the same circumstances for flight!! Avariel are exceptionally light with hollow bones that let them sustain flight for long periods of time with ease regardless of constitution.


There could be two formulas. Having a winged, non-DD character myself, I feel like it's a notable distinction. The script could look for DD levels and have one cooldown, but if the character doesn't have any, it could determine the timer by another formula.

That's a bit iffy though. As it was already mentioned, at least as far as flight is concerned, you already get it "free," mechanically. At least with DD and SD, we can expect that the builds are going to have a certain level of a particular class, and that helps us balance this sort of thing. I.E. They're both 3/4 AB classes, they're not as hard-hitting as full AB or caster classes, and they're both relatively gimmick based. Requested wings, you can stick on anything from a pure wiz to a pure fighter, to a bard/Fighter/AA. SD and DD are generally alright with the increased mobility, because they're not really great at doing anything in particular.

For that reason, even though it makes sense on some level that say an Avariel or other naturally flying creature could do it more often, it's hard to justify from a mechanical standpoint. And for that same reason, I think whatever formula gets used for DD should still apply to naturally flying creatures, too. Natural flyers still probably come out a bit better, in the end, for the reasons stated earlier.

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robbi320
 
PostPosted: Thu, Oct 19 2017, 19:19 PM 



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Well, two things here: First off, RDD is not gimmicky any more. 3/4 AB, yes. But the max you could go in pre-epic, where it matters, is 10. Which is three levels that lose AB, and you get 8 str, so four AB... RDD is arguably one of the most powerful melee builds atm, and since they get 6 con, any cooldown based on con would have to keep that in mind. Also, on 'natural fliers', how much practise do you need? Let's use walking as an example: Does a 30-year-old really learn anything new to walking? I doubt it. IC, I'd say, yes, you'd have problems flying for a few years, but it wouldn't really make sense for you to fly worse than a natural, since you get wings that can fly and all, and after a few years of practise (far beyond the practise for simply getting the widget) you should be able to do so just as good as a natural. An RDD even gets lots more strength and stamina than an avariel, so you could even argue that he would be -better- at flying, after said years of practise.

About being gimmicked, though, going heavy SD does gimmick you. So that is personally where I'd see the bigger problem. Personally, I think using the a similar formula to Shadow Daze would be good. I'm thinking 30 second cooldown is a bit low, but I'm not sure. One side note to this would mean that Greater Shadowjump would effectively be useless, and there would only be one Shadowjump...

And on request-based wings... I don't know. I'm in general not sure if a con-based flight cooldown would be the best way to go, partly exactly because RDD would screw up the calculation. I think a flat cooldown at maybe 100 (maybe 60?) seconds would be best, simply because going high RDD is rewarded enough. No need to make them the best fliers either. But I don't think it would be good to have all request-wings to be favored. I mean, if I have a custom subrace, I usually don't get scripted stuff, and it can be slapped on top of every single normal build. I mean, I can make every single build (exceot DwD, and in general, with exceptions, the evil classes on avariel, and would just need to look deep enough to find a race that fits my build and has wings...) And on lots of builds, that jump would be incredibly useful.


 
      
Kamina
 
PostPosted: Sat, Oct 21 2017, 11:29 AM 

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I feel of all the things Shadowdancers need to make them "better" for investing in, gaining more Shadow Jumps is probably the lowest priority. Not personally opposed to the idea but don't see it'll make the class better.

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