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Mushidoz
 
PostPosted: Mon, Dec 18 2017, 16:41 PM 

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I recently was with a party that got lucky enough to drop a couple of epic items. Among those drops was "Hood of the Archer". I never knew this thing existed... and now I do! I would like to discuss this item, so that perhaps it becomes a bit less.. well, shit.
--------

Hood of Archer:
Point blank shot
Rapid shot
Rapid reload
Called shot

Normal Helmets: 3 mythal slots.

--------

What is this helm for?:

I assume the boon is to gain access to archer feats, so that you either save feats to take something else, or you're not an archer at all, and use this to become a temporary one. Alternatively, maybe you could also make a point that "Called Shot" is the only bonus on it that's worth it, and the intend is to remove all 3 archer feats off it and then mythal the 2 remaining slots with other bonuses (like saves or stats).

--------
Use 1 : To Save 3 feats.

In the event that someone uses this thing to be an archer and save 3 non-epic feats to take something else instead, wearing this helm basically means that you are forfeitting your helmet slot. Helmets can give you pretty decent boons.. including but not limited to 3 ability stats, regeneration, universal saves, etc. None of the non-epic feats can provide you bonuses that will surpass those you can get from a good helmet.

For example, if you want saves, the best you can get from a feat is +2 in one stat.. so you could get +2 to universal saves, which is something you can find on helms available on the server (and that isn't the only bonus they have on them). The helmet Saya wears, for instance, gives +1 dex, +1 wisdom, 2 universal saves, regen, as well as minor bonuses to skills - and that helmet can be bought from a npc shop.

----
Use 2 : Archer of Fortune.

Now, yes, this is a valid use of this item. However, -when- is it prefered to turn ranged instead of using your melee focus? Are those very niche situations really worth justifying having the hood of archer in the epic loot bin? I don't think so...

----
Use 3 : Called shot.

Also a valid use for this item. You then get 2 mythal slots to fill out on your helmet, and you gain the Called Shot feat in exchange for losing on what non mythallable items can provide you (because helmets found on the server can go above the 3 mythal slot limit). Once more, I will ask the question here -> is this really worth justifying having the hood of archer available in the epic loot bin for this specific use? Again, I don't think so.

----

Solutions:

I can think of three solutions to fix that hood.

1) The first would be to add bonuses to it - something like a decent dexterity, as well as perhaps bonus sneak attack damage. The hood would then at least go above the 3 mythal slots limit and perhaps provide desirable effects to more builds and characters, and be less niche and more epic-worthy.

2) The second would be to downright delete the item. This however would not be a good "solution" in my opinion, as effort has been made to create the thing, and we don't gain much from having one less item on the server that someone could want to fiddle with at some point.

3) A prefered alternative, and thus my third solution, would be to keep the helmet on the server as is, but remove it from the epic loot bin and transfer it to the abyss shop instead. Let's face it, that hood (as is) is not epic worthy. It could however find some niche use to some fun non-optimal builds or for the fringe situations where you will want to turn into an archer of fortune. Players who want to have that option to them could then buy it from the abyss and that's it. It wouldn't pollute the epic loot anymore.


Thoughts?

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robbi320
 
PostPosted: Mon, Dec 18 2017, 17:03 PM 



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While it doesn't seem too powerful to me, personally, I'd argue the market solves itself. (Yay to free market)

From newest to oldest, with the first one being a sale, which means the price might have been far higher:

300,000

1,250,000

3,000,000

Now, yeah, I can't guarantee the price you'd get now, but that is -a lot- higher than what you'd get for... an epic two-bladed-weapon. It's almost like mythals, which in the normal game go for like ~14k, but because supply is low, they have huge price tags on them. (At least certain ones do, like Dusty Rose)

I do think the main use is for "Archers of Fortune", but I've read in the build forums quite a bit, and there's a few pretty strong builds centered around the hood. (Hell, a Cleric can turn into a real beast with this)


That said, I don't think I'd use it for much. I feel like a +1 or +2 to dex might make it better, but that's from someone who hasn't seen it be used at all.


 
      
walnutboy
 
PostPosted: Mon, Dec 18 2017, 18:00 PM 

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As an archer... I'd use it and gain one feat and think about dropping one other to pick up something else.

I don't think it's shit, it allows for a different variety... assuming you can get a one, much like the ring I have with evasion on it.

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Jes
 
PostPosted: Mon, Dec 18 2017, 19:13 PM 

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I got a DC item with one of those feats in a build that didn't have the room for it, so it's very valuable to some people.

Simply put, though, some items are just for fun! Maaaybe it's not quite on par with some other epic loot items. But it's definitely better than the +4 loot bin. Especially if you give it to a rogue who doesn't have those feats and can suddenly Sneak-Snipe you six times a round in the leg and make you move at a snail's crawl until you die.

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freaxxshow1338
 
PostPosted: Mon, Dec 18 2017, 19:27 PM 

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... I think that's an awesome helmet tbh.

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Mushidoz
 
PostPosted: Mon, Dec 18 2017, 22:26 PM 

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Jes wrote:
Simply put, though, some items are just for fun! Maaaybe it's not quite on par with some other epic loot items. But it's definitely better than the +4 loot bin.


My point exactly. Epic items should be comparable with other epic items. This simply isn't even close to compare..

Items you can buy from the abyss include a pair of boots that give 5 AC and +3 dexterity after all.. if some -think- this hood is a good item (why it's beyond me), then simply throwing it at the abyss wouldn't suddenly destroy the server (it's nowhere close to that power level..) and would just make the 1 in 100000000 character that will think this hood is good for them happy. Heck, if someone wants to have fun with it on some obscure build, then they wouldn't have to hope someone finds it from a "lucky" epic loot and could just go and get it from the abyss. That hood's similar to the abyss gloves that give two-weapon fighting and ambidexterity -- some builds could make use of that, but the majority won't.. difference is one's readily available from a shop, the other ruins epic rolls.

Same day we found that useless hood (our archer ended up with it, and to my knowledge has no intention of ever using it...) we also found a pair of animal empathy gloves.. and I consider the gloves far better than the hood (and that's another bad, way-too-niche item that shouldn't be lurking in the epic loot bin).

As I said when I explained usage 1, the max you can get from that hood is save 3 feats and use them for 3 other non-epic feats. However, doing so will bar you from using a hood, which can nets you some pretty good bonuses that feats cannot get on the same level of (regeneration, stats, etc.) There is no scenario I can think of that would make this hood mathematically worth the sacrifice of forfeitting your regular hood.

Usage 2 is where it's at - but even then, I don't think it justify the item to be in the epic lootbin.

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Amarice-Elaraliel
 
PostPosted: Tue, Dec 19 2017, 1:20 AM 

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No they should not.

They never are, they never will be.

Not all epic items are equally great.

+30 AE will never be comparable to +30 discipline or +30 spellcraft.

an ioun, while fun, will never be a +5 fort cloak in worth.

The feats on the hood and the amount of feats still make it an epic quality item. That you do not like/use/need it, does not make it's properties any less epic quality. Several free feats, is more than certainly, epic.

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walnutboy
 
PostPosted: Tue, Dec 19 2017, 1:22 AM 

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Mushidoz wrote:
There is no scenario I can think of that would make this hood mathematically worth the sacrifice of forfeitting your regular hood.


Perhaps you play a backup character who for some reason places more stock in rp than build and for some unknown reason, stands at the back and plays the archer for support while actually having an ill suited build for such. The feats from the hood would likely help.

I actually have four hoods on one of my characters because no one hood does everything that i'd like... and yes i do switch them out at times depending on the position, situation and role fated for her, even mood! I also try to keep a ring slot free for 'things' which might not really be useful but may have a quirk relating to a personality trait or some such.

I get it, you don't see the point in the hood, but others including myself could find a use.

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Amarice-Elaraliel
 
PostPosted: Tue, Dec 19 2017, 1:26 AM 

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P.S.

There was a player vote btw. where we let the playerbase decide if the hood

1. Stays A only
2. Drops on A and B
3. Is removed

and the vote ended with a phenomenous win for "please leave it in for A and B.

So it was a playerbase decision. And should be respected.

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MightNMagic
 
PostPosted: Tue, Dec 19 2017, 1:38 AM 

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Amarice-Elaraliel wrote:
+30 AE will never be comparable to +30 discipline or +30 spellcraft.


You're right, +30 Animal Empathy is awesome, those others suck!

Portalling over to Brog, snagging a 600 HP bear, buffing it to high hell and using it as an additional source of damage and HP all a run is fantastic! Useful!

Having +30 discipline gloves is boring, most monsters never try anything requiring you have it in the endgame. People just want it for PvP, which frankly, almost never happens...

+6 to saves (but only on spells and effects that are instantaneous and not even all of those) is highly overrated and for most people, largely a waste of a slot because of evasion and buffs. :lol:

But I digress...

No offense OP, but I think you're crazy... A helmet which turns ANYBODY into an archer? I'd have questioned it being too OP with just PB and Rapids, but free Called Shot too? That helmet has always been great. (I'm surprised it doesn't have martial prof too.)

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Mushidoz
 
PostPosted: Tue, Dec 19 2017, 1:46 AM 

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Alright then, let's keep the useless gauntlet-level item in the epic loot bin so that it continues to piss people who get "lucky enough" to draw it. We were 3 of us when we looted the item, and all 3 of us started laughing at how bad it was when we identified it. There wasn't even a roll as to who gets to keep it, it got close to end up at Hil'rash - until Salabon took it on the RP basis that it's an elven artifact and thus a memento that needs to be kept.

Sorry, but in my opinion if an item is so bad or so niche that 19/20 people have no use for it, it has no purpose to be in the epic loot bin and thus either needs to be put somewhere people who do want it can get it easily without having to rely on incredible luck or needs to be updated to be made worthwhile to more people. I understand that epic items are not all on the same scale of awesome, but this is deep down bottom tier, to the point where 3 of us (out of 3) were considering selling it at Hil'rash.. <.<

MightNMagic wrote:
No offense OP, but I think you're crazy... A helmet which turns ANYBODY into an archer? I'd have questioned it being too OP with just PB and Rapids, but free Called Shot too? That helmet has always been great. (I'm surprised it doesn't have martial prof too.)


If you're not playing a character which uses ranged weapons from the get go, then I'm sorry to say that you're most likely always going to be better off not using a ranged weapon and do what you're specialized to do instead. If you -are- in a situation where you are better using a ranged weapon, then yes, that hood will help.. and would still help if it were in the abyss gaunlet shop and not screwing over the majority of characters that have no use whatsoever for that hood.

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Amarice-Elaraliel
 
PostPosted: Tue, Dec 19 2017, 1:51 AM 

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I'll gladly take it off of you. And I know several others who would too. <.< just make an auction and split the money as with any other item you have no personal need for. Problem solved.

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Jes
 
PostPosted: Tue, Dec 19 2017, 2:02 AM 

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Honestly, if you're getting "pissed" because of which item has dropped during a boss run, then you should maybe re-evaluate something. :P

What Amarice said. Plenty of people will want to buy it. Just like people will by that STR ioun off that 8 STR mage with absolutely no need for the STR ioun.

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robbi320
 
PostPosted: Tue, Dec 19 2017, 2:16 AM 



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There's always items that are... suboptimal for a given build. As I said, you feel just the same when you get an epic halberd. Or, on any monster character getting the pally ring. Things like that. Hell, even the +6 Wis ammy has a use for... exactly two classes. And both can just pick up a +5 Wis ammy from abyss, which usually is good enough. Or the +6 saves, which is again, useful for very few builds, because you'd lose 5 AC for it. And even then, any buff freeing up the ammy slot can be dispelled, losing you those 4/5 AC again.

This isn't to say these items are bad. So, before judging an item, maybe try seeing how much people are willing to sell for it. There's a few items where I was like "why the fuck is this an epic/good item". And, surprise, sursprise, some of them are useful for quite a few builds. Rapid shot adds an extra attack per round. I'd say Clerics can "abuse" that most, with their damage increase effects and generally high AB, but rogues have a decent use from it, Assassins can too, if they can slot it into their gear. Also, it's one of those items where almost any character can have some use out of it. Yeah, a WM probably won't use it often, but having a bow around can be very useful, especially in DM events.


 
      
Impknightofireland
 
PostPosted: Wed, Dec 20 2017, 4:34 AM 

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freaxxshow1338 wrote:
... I think that's an awesome helmet tbh.


+1

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Gravemaskin
 
PostPosted: Wed, Dec 20 2017, 12:09 PM 

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I always always ALWAYS have a ranged weapon or some other method of attacking at range on my characters because it can be invaluable in certain situations. (Events with a ton of players in confined spaces anyone? 6 melee chars when you have room to fight 2 at a time isn't very efficient..) This one should be a MUST HAVE for all the DEX-WM's out there.. OR any caster druids/clerics that has the room to fit zen archery so they can get all the other must haves for their ranged weapon(save for WF & imp crit) on a feat starved build. (This item made me regret grabbing scribe scroll instead of zen archery on Adair for instance)

This item will not only make it a better fallback option to use a ranged weapon, but also opens up the option for people to use crossbows as their backup weapon (Which is scientifically proven to be 10% more badass).

Also you can remove all the other feats and keep called shot to make it a +2 whatever, called shot item for your melee character.. Called shot is EXTREMELY POTENT on high AB characters and more feat starved builds can now fit it without loosing too much. (+3 ability helm with +other thing to +2 ability helm with A FREE FEAT)

Example:
A pure cleric without this item & zen archery will have crap AB and damage potential outside of their summons & spells. Mid to low 40's at best.
with zen archery a level 30 cleric gets :
AB: 20BAB+14(26 wis base.. going low end to prove a point)+5(GMW)+1(bless)+1(aid)+5(divine favor)+2(battletide)+5(Divine power) for a total of 53 AB with 1 feat investment & self buffs.. CAN reach 54 max with the +20 AB cap and clerics being able to get 19 of that on their own.
DAMAGE: Sling(Keep that +8 Tower shield AC) 1d4+5(+5mighty),+5(divine favor),+2(battletide),+ammo damage.

This means they can get a HIGHER base damage before ammunition is included than any other non AA class can get by using a ranged weapon. And that's using a sling that lets them keep their +8 AC shield and their AC above 60.. Include divine power if you want to pay the extra 2 feat cost of +Cha damage on the bullets as well to make your damage rival that of an AA and at the same time have your AC to go beyond that of any other class.

It's less effective on a druid, but it means that a pure caster druid with their cohort of powerful summons & companions can now reliably fight back with a ranged weapon from safety to do something useful when not casting spells, and with zen archery they are going to hit just as often as most ranged characters, with the same damage numbers they get. (Druids can self buff to get more damage/AB too, but not the extent a cleric can)

Having rapid shot here also means that you get the same amounts of attack per round as a melee build & you can use your high AB to get in called shots to back up your friends or in pvp against people with low discipline..

AGAIN.. for the cost of 1 Feat & 1 item slot a pure cleric can get high DC & spell damage & AB that rivals WM's + More AC than full plate wizards & reliable damage (blunt, least resisted damage type & low reliance of dicerolls or damage as half your damage will be from the cleric buffs alone). DexWM's get to keep their insane AC, get nearly the same AB on a ranged weapon as on their main weapon & all the utility that comes with it for NO COST beyond a helmet slot.

See the insane power spike potential some builds can get by just using 1 feat (zen archery) or none (dex WM) & having this piece of epic gear? You go from being useless in one area to being ABOVE AVERAGE, for 1 feat.. In the case of pure caster clerics it means they can self buff their AB to be ABOVE or EQUAL to what most melee chars have.

To summarize.. This is an EXTREMELY POWERFUL ITEM IN THE RIGHT HANDS, and it's FAR FAR FAAAAAR from useless. In fact it's likely one of the best epics out there, because of how powerful it can make certain builds and how much utility you get for free on all other builds (except ranged weapon users.. they get nothing from it.. nah nah)

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robbi320
 
PostPosted: Wed, Dec 20 2017, 12:28 PM 



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I'd like to emphasise that there's other things to consider, when we're talking about Clerics. A War domain cleric will have a nice dex score as well, if you're going for that. You can go to +7 if you're building a certain, still pretty powerful way, which means you'd still have an AB of 46, which is more than a few other builds.

And secondly, what I'd like to stress, which in my opinion makes the Cleric with that a strong contender against an AA: The bonuses from divine Favor, Battletide and Divine Might (which can also be pretty high easily, especially on a Battlecleric) all completely ignore all form of damage reduction. This item changes Clerics from being feat-starved, to the point where they can't get enough combat feats, to the second strongest archers on the server, by a pretty large margin.


 
      
walnutboy
 
PostPosted: Wed, Dec 20 2017, 13:23 PM 

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Worth pointing out that Called Shot is also on the 'unlikely' to be approved list of feats in DC items, so that in my mind makes it a desirable item even if you do what Grave said and remove the other feats just to add a +2 ability.

I want one now! lol

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Revak
 
PostPosted: Wed, Dec 20 2017, 16:45 PM 

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Impknightofireland wrote:
freaxxshow1338 wrote:
... I think that's an awesome helmet tbh.


+1


+2

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vhunelar
 
PostPosted: Wed, Dec 20 2017, 18:56 PM 

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Mushidoz wrote:
I recently was with a party that got lucky enough to drop a couple of epic items. Among those drops was "Hood of the Archer". I never knew this thing existed... and now I do! I would like to discuss this item, so that perhaps it becomes a bit less.. well, shit.
--------

Hood of ....


You are the same person who spent 30 minutes of tells lecturing me on how any evil character is 'bad for the server and needs to be stopped'. You didn't listen to any logical replies then and I see you ranting here again with no regard for what others have pointed out repeatedly.

Look at what a snide passive aggressive way you have..."...well, less shit"
Why the admins put up with you I don't know. You turn people away from this server.

Amia is fairly low difficulty and very low penalties for death. To make a giant post about how something doesn't jack up your power level high enough is just nausea to read.


 
      
Broldi
 
PostPosted: Wed, Dec 20 2017, 21:07 PM 

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Revak wrote:
Impknightofireland wrote:
freaxxshow1338 wrote:
... I think that's an awesome helmet tbh.


+1


+2


+3 (If you have something like a rogue with good AB it's a really nice helmet.)

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Gravemaskin
 
PostPosted: Wed, Dec 20 2017, 22:19 PM 

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Please refrain from personal attacks and stick to the rules you all agreed to when you signed up on the forums, or the topic is getting locked and people start getting put in the time out corner. Opposing points of view and arguing your side is fine, having disagreements or disliking other people's points of view is also fine (as long as you're civil about it or vent such things in private). Airing out grievances with other players in public is not civil, constructive or helpful in any way.

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Mrlala
 
PostPosted: Wed, Dec 20 2017, 22:50 PM 



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I've find the hood of the archer lackluster. Nor do I ever see people switching melee and ranged very often... (though I'm never in those crowded dm events so haven't witnessed those)

I would've liked it more if there was a ranged set. Like Hood of the archer as stated above. Gloves of the archer which would give weapon focusses. And a ring of the marksman which would give spec and epic spec. That way it'll be alot of fun to gather them all. To become the very best. Like no-one ever was, to grab them is your real test. You would have to travel across the land, searching far and wide.


 
      
walnutboy
 
PostPosted: Wed, Dec 20 2017, 23:16 PM 

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Mrlala wrote:
I've find the hood of the archer lackluster. Nor do I ever see people switching melee and ranged very often... (though I'm never in those crowded dm events so haven't witnessed those)


To be fair it is likely something you wouldn't see too often in large DM crowds simply because most archers are not good melee characters so stick with ranged and let those who are the meat shield stomp on ahead. Same goes for large dungeon runs really i find.

As a ranger archer myself i do tend to switch between ranged and close quarter a lot, but only when i am soloing unless a large group is overwhelmed and the rear guard suddenly becomes the front line. It had always been an rp point for my character that she was an archer first, dual weapon user second and then a sword and board when the situation was most dire.

Usually as a point of rp while in a group i'll stick to archer unless death is knocking!! :mrgreen:

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Amarice-Elaraliel
 
PostPosted: Thu, Dec 21 2017, 0:37 AM 

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I do swap between melee and ranged a lot.

That said, the set will never happen, as there will never be epic focuses on any item, ever.

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vhunelar
 
PostPosted: Sun, Dec 24 2017, 18:34 PM 

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Gravemaskin

With all due respect this is exactly what I was referring to. You are angry with me for pointing out you have a player with a poor attitude.

I also perhaps not correctly added this poor attitude is known to me previously and this player has been a thorn in my side for no reason repeatedly.

I understand as you are a dm I will not be welcome on this server speaking in this way. I accept that.

I want people who read the forums to know why I have chosen to stop the drow project that had several players in it and cease playing here. And the reason is the dms do not support us or rein in very poor players. I do not mind the dm support lacking if there is no time, but it is silly when there are dm's online and we are the most active faction and we never hear from them. They talk about us 'showing we are invested'. Well every nearly day for a month seems a decent investment.

But the worst issue is so clearly illustrated here. A person who makes a long bitchy post about nothing is indulged while I who tried to assert some degree of quality control was told to shut the hell up in politically correct code talk.

Myself and at least one other player ran completely out of patience with all this.

anyone who wishes to contact me can reach me at vhunelar@gmail.com

as this board is not owned or paid for my me i do not expect them to allow me to use it after having said what i have.


PS: (( I'll put myself 'in the corner' thanks. (who talks like that??) ))


 
      
LeathanKayne
 
PostPosted: Sun, Dec 24 2017, 23:42 PM 

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No more of this in public, please. I've sent you a PM.

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Amarice-Elaraliel
 
PostPosted: Mon, Dec 25 2017, 18:40 PM 

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This is locked.

The topic has far more than solved its purpose.

Clearly the majority of the players likes the item, so it stays.

For all who used yet another topic that was meant to improve the server for their petty games of trolling and flaming others, I would say I am disappointed, but alas, I have long lost hope people on the internet will change. Perhaps one day you find something reasonable to do with your time.

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