AMIA ARCHIVE • View topic - Caster Nerf

Hey uh... Just a quick question: Think we can give Timestop a Cooldown?

I think even 6 Seconds would balance things a lot. Because as it stands, Sorcs are completely overpowered while being boring to play.

Discuss!

Either giving the spell a 1-2 round cooldown or making everyone hit by it immune to timestop for 1-2 rounds would be a good way to balance it out a bit.

From a scripting standpoint, it'd probably be easier to make everyone hit by timestop immune to the spell for 1-2 rounds since giving the spell a cooldown would involve having to refund the spell slot somehow as well, most likely. Though this opinion is entirely based on my sketchy understanding of scripting.

Eh. If you cast raise dead before the cooldown is up, it eats the scroll, or slot. If you selected Haven as a wizard, and try to cast it, it eats up the slot.

Personally, I don't think you'd have to refund it, because it would just take a short while until people learned. And it's literally the same as making everyone immune. In both cases, you cast it and it did nothing, and you lost the slot.

Also, I think making it centered on the caster makes more sense. If the caster uses it, his... magic mojo is used up, or something. But then a second caster comes along: He casts it... And only the caster of the original spell would be hit by it. All the other people on the "battlefield" (thinking of it in a scheme larger than a 1v1) are unaffected, making it come down to lag and stuff far more. Player one presses it, player 2 uses it just a split second later? Guess he's fucked now, and lost a spell slot for it.

If it's on a cooldown, it's the original casters fault, always, especially if we're gearing it towards an even-round cooldown. 6 seconds cooldown? Just happens to be two spellcasts. 12? Four. Or whatever. (That's assuming hasted, which... people should be, usually) Only way to screw up is: 1. You don't spam-cast. In which case... Learn to casts spells more effectively. 2. You interrupted your casting... It's annoying, but it's player error as well.

Gravemaskin wrote:

From a scripting standpoint, it'd probably be easier to make everyone hit by timestop immune to the spell for 1-2 rounds since giving the spell a cooldown would involve having to refund the spell slot somehow as well, most likely. Though this opinion is entirely based on my sketchy understanding of scripting.

This is probably easier to do as it's easier for us to write a script to the spell that after they're unfrozen, they're given the immunity to Time Stop attribute.

My dumb question: Why would it matter if they spammed it? They can't do anything short of buffing or healing whilst it is in affect as everyone around you is immune to damage.

Using it as spam would be the equivelant of using greater sactuary or haven to heal. That's really all you could use it for.

There is really no logical reason TO nerf it imho.

You can cast large amounts of aoe-spells still, like Grease.

Cast timestop, cast grease. Cast timestop, cast grease. Cast timestop, cast grease.

Now your enemies can't stop falling and are also slowed down a lot.

Angelis96 wrote:

My dumb question: Why would it matter if they spammed it? They can't do anything short of buffing or healing whilst it is in affect as everyone around you is immune to damage.

Using it as spam would be the equivelant of using greater sactuary or haven to heal. That's really all you could use it for.

There is really no logical reason TO nerf it imho.

Well.. Part of the drawbacks of being a mage is you rely on buffs to survive. TS partly negates this weakness. Also, you can use it to spam AoE spells, like grease. Sure, they aren't hurt before the TS is gone, but if you use several TS's in a row you can stack quite a few AoE's on top of one another. This is only an example of how TS could be used, and I am sure there are players out there that could make TS even more disgusting to fight against.

The grease thing has some pretty big drawbacks as well. With only having a place for a few Time Stops, you can only stack so many greases on top of each other, and it takes one round of not being unlucky to get out of the spammed grease, making all that effort for naught. At the sime time, said mage didn't spend any time buffing himself, so he should be easy enough to pick off in melee.

If your saves aren't high enough to reliably pass a save of grease (for most mages, a DC of 25) then... well, you're fucked. But that's why you shouldn't neglect the reflex save. If you're a pure 20 pre-epic of low reflex class, have 8 dex, and your only save defense is a fort cloak, which everybody can have easily, if the Djinn's around, you have 21 reflex. And that's with zero investment in it. Just a bit more, and you're sitting on a 5% roll to be KD'd. Now, yeah, at multiple grease rollings, you're more likely to roll a 1. But, even at 10 greases, you have a 56% chance of not being KD'd. All you have to do is run out. And, of course you have to run out, you want to get to the un-buffed caster, right? And, if the slow annoys you... There's a reason freedom is so polular. Perma-freedom is pretty important, and you should always have it, exactly for that. That's the case, no matter what you do.

The grease spam isn't really all that scary, unless you're not prepared for it. And, that's the case with all spells, and everything, effectively. Prepare for it.

Without TS spam, the wiazrd actually has very little going for him. You can't expect him to get his buffs up, he can't deal damage, so he's a sitting duck. And even with his buffs up, yeah, he's nice defensively, but offensively? IGMS is negated by heal kits, if you put just abotu any points in heal, or just heal pots. That's actually the case with most spells. Just heal against the damage, until he's got no spells. Save-or-death spells are just luck, fishing for ones, and mind spells are much the same, but worse, with the reduced durations and Mind Blank.
And still both of these fuck you up good if you're not prepared. Much like grease spam.

Your fort's not 37-39? Get rekt by Wail. Your Will's not 37-39 and you don't have Mind Blank? Get rekt by Dominate monster. Your reflex is not 25 and you don't have Freedom, a permanent property? Get rekt by grease spam.

Somehow one of these sounds less powerful than the other two...

Now, if you're really going overboard, and using 3 9th level spell slots, and grease, on a sorc... Yeah, you get a nice amount off, but the first greases are already fizzling by the time it's forcing you to do saves, and you have no other 9th level spells prepared. (no mords, no wail, no dominate, nothing along those lines)

And, yeah, buffing is -partly- negated by TS, limited by the amount of spells you have. And along comes Haven, which is basically the same, but on a build that needs the buffing far more. A mage can, in theory, still cast without buffs. A Battlecleric can't attack without buffs, because he's so shitty without buffs. So why should a Cleric have Haven, but Wizards don't have an equivalent? And Haven is a level 5 spell, and can be slotted into the 6th spell as well, by using extend spell. Meaning you have far more casts on a class that needs it far more, and lasts a lot longer.

There's more AoEs than just grease, like setting up the field with Evards Tentacles, or Cloud of Bewilderment behind the safety of TS. Spamming TS allows you to completely change the battlefield before the other player has a chance to react to the first casting of TS. Mages not in armor are at a disadvantage unfortunately because we're so squishy in combat, but that's also because the only real defensive spells we have are Premonition and Stoneskin. But those are completely useless when every level 30 has a +5 weapon, the best defense an AC deprived wizard has is Improved Invisibility. I'd say make the timer at least 1 turn between casting and raise defensive spells like Premonition or Stoneskin to +6. Then the caster has the choice of casting TS and laying down a couple AoEs, or a couple buffs or summon then wait a minute before they can cast it again.

robbi320 wrote:

Without TS spam, the wiazrd actually has very little going for him. . .

The wizard has tones going for him, the only thing they don't have going for them is a proper defense spell from swords, which is why you see so many mages in armor. When you have no AC and you're getting crits from scimitars every other hit for 100+ damage it's no wonder people rely on spamming spells like Timestop.

robbi320 wrote:

A Battlecleric can't attack without buffs, because he's so shitty without buffs. So why should a Cleric have Haven, but Wizards don't have an equivalent? And Haven is a level 5 spell, and can be slotted into the 6th spell as well, by using extend spell. Meaning you have far more casts on a class that needs it far more, and lasts a lot longer.

I don't think freax ever said clerics should have haven, this is a discussion about timestop, not haven. Just because one class has one unhealthy feature doesn't mean it should be used to justify something broken about another class.

Also, have you ever fought against an evocation focused sorcerer? Well, Peraga and Lyelanna fought, and even without spamming any aoe spells to slow Lye down, Lye still lost because Peraga used TS to run away and buff, and she was able to deal enough dmg to Lyelanna who has 520 HP before Lyelanna was close enough to even attack.

Shadowfiend wrote:

robbi320 wrote:

A Battlecleric can't attack without buffs, because he's so shitty without buffs. So why should a Cleric have Haven, but Wizards don't have an equivalent? And Haven is a level 5 spell, and can be slotted into the 6th spell as well, by using extend spell. Meaning you have far more casts on a class that needs it far more, and lasts a lot longer.

I don't think freax ever said clerics should have haven, this is a discussion about timestop, not haven. Just because one class has one unhealthy feature doesn't mean it should be used to justify something broken about another class.

Also, have you ever fought against an evocation focused sorcerer? Well, Peraga and Lyelanna fought, and even without spamming any aoe spells to slow Lye down, Lye still lost because Peraga used TS to run away and buff, and she was able to deal enough dmg to Lyelanna who has 520 HP before Lyelanna was close enough to even attack.

Can confirm. We specifically started fights without buffs. It's a joke, really.

If anything, that proves how crazy the evocation changes are. A non-evo caster doesn't have that damage. Best they could get is something like IGMS spam, which would be something around 240 a round, if it's maximised. (and thus taking up slots from TS)

I mean, I wasn't there, so I have no way of seeing the circumstances, but if that happened with buffs, it will happen without buffs. Time Stop -> Haste, run away cast spells. If anything, it proves that a mages damage is the problem, and not TS.

robbi320 wrote:

If anything, that proves how crazy the evocation changes are. A non-evo caster doesn't have that damage. Best they could get is something like IGMS spam, which would be something around 240 a round, if it's maximised. (and thus taking up slots from TS)

I mean, I wasn't there, so I have no way of seeing the circumstances, but if that happened with buffs, it will happen without buffs. Time Stop -> Haste, run away cast spells. If anything, it proves that a mages damage is the problem, and not TS.

But if she didn't use TS Lye would have prolly been able to catch up pretty quickly to deal dmg.

I personally don't have a problem with mages dealing a lot of dmg in a short time period, it eats up spell slots and all that. I have a bigger problem with how safe casters are, and TS adds a lot to that safety.

Well, just aste and TS gets you quite far away. You said yourself, she killedyou before you could even get there. And that point is reached even after just one TS and a haste. So, the problem of multiple time stops does nothing against the frontloadedness of damage.

Like, "she was able to deal enough dmg to Lyelanna who has 520 HP before Lyelanna was close enough to even attack." I just tested it, and I could run out of the casting range, with a TS and a haste after it. So adding a second one is just overkill, and does nothing. You don't need a second TS to one-shot, if the spells really are as damaging as you say.
-> It's not TS that's broken. It's the evocation spells. And those were deemed alright by the balance team, apparently.

robbi320 wrote:

-> It's not TS that's broken. . . deemed alright by the balance team, apparently.

Without a doubt it's Timestop that's broken, this is the only server I've been on where putting a timer on an OP spell like Timestop is up for question. Requires no save what-so-ever and allows you to cast 2 spells while everyone stands and watches then you can simply cast another right after. Seriously where is the argument, speaking as someone that mainly plays a low AC wizard, I can say without a doubt that Timestop needs a timer. Not a 1-2 round timer but at least a full minute.

What about putting the component requirement back in? Didn't TS once require the Sands of Time as a reagent to cast?

I think the main problem people have with TS spamming is that you don't have much time to react between when the spell lapses and when another one is dropped. Tactically, timestop is a spell that gives you that strong tactical advantage in a pvp situation. If you time it right, the enemy you're fighting has one second or two to hit that drink potion button or greater sanctuary scroll before another TS goes off and it removes the interactivity from the fight (moves and counter moves).

Adding 2 round immunity to targets hit by timestops means that one or more mages can't spam timestops repeatedly and it's short enough that if you spend your timestop defensively like running away, you're safe for those 12 seconds before you can cast another if need be. It's not so long that you only get 1 use of the spell in a fight, and it's not so short that you can't react to how the fight changed while you were timestopped.

The timestop spam was the reason why it used to have the "sands of time" item component, it meant that you could spam it but it'd both cost you and mean you need to make a trip to resupply before you can do it again, or you'd have to use it more sparingly. It was an imperfect solution but the general idea of it was good I think. This would achieve the same thing that the sands of time was supposed to, and if it turns out to be terrible; it's a change that could be rolled back by commenting out the immunity part of the script. a change like this wouldn't be nearly half as dramatic as the greater sanctuary change was when it went in, but instead be a smaller but much need change and I think mages would adapt quickly to it.

Well, once again, I'd say even if we want to make it hae a cooldown, making everyone immune completely breaks the spell.

Explain, please, how two mages would fight gainst each other, if they use time stop? Why should the one with less lag have an advantage over the other? (because that's what happens if you give it a cooldown)

And I feel like giving it the component cost might be better. You still have the chance, but it's costly. And it even nerfs evo sorcs, who only need one TS to get all that off.

I was thinking that when you're affected by timestop you'd become immune to the timestop spell for 2 rounds. It wouldn't affect the caster, so they can still be timestopped right back.
In a duel, mage 1 could timestop, enjoy the 9 seconds of ultimate power... then get timestopped right back once it lapses.

And if it's 2v2? Faction v Faction?

That's an unlikely scenario, so not really worth accounting for balance-wise.

Well, likely enough that it's suggested often enough at arenas; Likely enough that I've heard, multiple times of a mage and another person attacking Bendir Dale, which, at the time, had mages in it... It just seems dumb to say that mages can't have any friends along, during a fight.

What if a mage has a summon up, before he uses TS? His TS stuns the enemy and the summon, and then the second can stun the original mage, yeah, but not the summon.

I've seen, on my time here, multiple times where this wuld actually fuck up the second mage quite a bit.

Richard_Edmund wrote:

What about putting the component requirement back in? Didn't TS once require the Sands of Time as a reagent to cast?

Correct, however it was only 25k each and they were unlimited. At that point it just became a space issue because money is no object to a max level mage.

What about reinstating the component but making it so you can only have one in your inventory? IDK if there's a NWN mechanic for that, but here's the stipulations I am thinking:

Requires component
Cannot be put in bags
No stacking of the item
Can only have one in your inventory

The above stipulations would mean that Time Stop cannot be cast without a component and you are only about to have one in your inventory, no bag fuckery. This means the spell is a one and done, you need to use it wisely. However I don't know if NWN has a mechanic in place that allows you to limit regular items to only carrying one at a time. If not then we might have to do something funky:

Cannot be put in bags
Make stackable (unlimited?)
Code spell to consume entire component stack (or all in inventory, whatever)

This would achieve the same thing. You can't put them in bags and you can only have one stack of them (simulating the one per character). When you cast the spell it consumes the IC component (OOC all the components), while leaves you with one cast only.

IC reasoning for all this: Mystra is sick of chronomancy and similar shit after everything Reyes did so she said fuck Time Stop and limited it. Somewhat joking, but makes sense.

It's a tad janky in the second version, but it works. This would allow people to cast the spell only once, which honestly a spell like Time Stop shouldn't be cast whenever you want. The cost of the component doesn't matter either because you can only have one (or 'one'). You get to use the spell but you have to be smart about it. Might be a little heavy handed, but it depends on how we value the spell itself.

Just something that came to mind.

I think this is being way over-thought, a 1-minute timer seems like the simplest solution and probably easily scripted. No need to bring back those silly spell components. After a minute of casting they can have a little message pop-up saying "You can now cast Timestop again". Why do they need to be allowed to cast it again after only 6-12 seconds, that's hardly even a timer or a deterrent.

Ðraco wrote:

I think this is being way over-thought, a 1-minute timer seems like the simplest solution and probably easily scripted. No need to bring back those silly spell components. After a minute of casting they can have a little message pop-up saying "You can now cast Timestop again". Why do they need to be allowed to cast it again after only 6-12 seconds, that's hardly even a timer or a deterrent.

1 Minute is too long, 6-12 Seconds is good because you can not spam it, but still make great use of it to gain distance to meelees, etc. You'd have to play smart, but the spell won't be useless.

Too long!? Why do people need to cast Timestop every 12 seconds? Timestop was never useless and still isn't with a more reasonable timer, 12 seconds, really what are you accomplishing. You are still allowing it to be spammed just over small breaks. It has NO SAVE, spells like that and even Isaacs and Icestorm should be further nerfed honestly, then just make stoneskin and premonition not useless. Then you don't have to think "Oh I better cast another Timestop to distance myself" I thought getting some distance was the point of Greater Sanctuary.

Just use haste wands and other items so you can react to timestop. This is something players should be learning to counter instead of nerfing. That's amia's problem is every time sonething is found to be strong like timestop or shifters a demand for a nerf comes in. Learn how to fight it like I learned how to kill shifters.

That said, a REASONABLE timestop nerf would be totally fine. Up to a minute cool down at most. But please don't bring arelith's component system to amia. Hell amia's mechanics are my favorite thing about it.

bobofwestoregonusa wrote:

Just use haste wands and other items so you can react to timestop. This is something players should be learning to counter instead of nerfing. That's amia's problem is every time sonething is found to be strong like timestop or shifters a demand for a nerf comes in.

Timestop always was way OP IMHO, I remember back before when players could freely timestop, maximized isaacs, maximized isaacs, timestop and repeat and there was no breaking through it. This is just an adaptation of that same tactic that they tried to fix by adding immunities.

to be frank. Using the fact you willingly choose to build a low AC caster isnt justification to nerf something effecting everyone else.

Also Dmg based spells are made as high dmging as they are otherwise Evo or even Necro would be even more useless in PvE and considering how low HP casters have and the limited casts. Versus the high hp and unlimited 80-100 dmg flat melees get. Nerfimg evocation lower would make it 100% useless.

Also on the note Ive done arena fights versus Rosary etc and Have never had a problem with the timestop spam. And this is a sorc vs Wiz in a 1v1 scenario.

I really don't see much of an issue as it's a utility to a utility based class.

Think I have to agree with Bob on this one and practice counters versus nerfing things.

I use haste casts to counter timestop spam personally. As it allows me to cast faster than you can spam.

Last edited by Ðraco on Fri, Sep 28 2018, 14:19 PM, edited 1 time in total.

Angelis96 wrote:

to be frank. Using the fact you willingly choose to build a low AC caster isnt justification to nerf something effecting everyone else.

This has nothing to do with a mage having low AC, if you have high AC then your timestop spamming tactic is just made all the more powerful. You can have high AC and still retain your spell DC. It's all to do with what is in my mind at least, an exploit. I mostly play a wizard and yes has low AC, but then why am I arguing that this is an OP spell that needs a timer, I'm in the power to take advantage of it. Because I know that it's a cheesy and lame tactic, I'm surprised it's taken this long for there to need to be a discussion about simply putting a timer on it.

Angelis96 wrote:

I use haste casts to counter timestop spam personally.

How do you counter a timestop with haste? Lets say they cast timestop, then everyone, with no save required is stuck standing there while you cast the next two AOE spells. Now let your imagination fill with all the stupid AoEs that can be dropped, evards tentacles, grease, mind fog, there are a lot of options. Then you simply cast another timestop, again requiring NO SAVE, then you cast the next 2 AoEs. You managed to use a haste wand in the second of free time allowed to your character, then after the next group of spells while timestopped you manage to close the distance. Oh but they just cast another timestop, then you run away back through all your own AoEs so they have to follow. If 1 minute is too long then how about 30-42 seconds.

Ðraco wrote:

Angelis96 wrote:

to be frank. Using the fact you willingly choose to build a low AC caster isnt justification to nerf something effecting everyone else.

This has nothing to do with a mage having low AC, if you have high AC then your timestop spamming tactic is just made all the more powerful. You can have high AC and still retain your spell DC. It's all to do with what is in my mind at least, an exploit.

Angelis96 wrote:

I use haste casts to counter timestop spam personally.

How do you counter a timestop with haste? Lets say they cast timestop, then everyone, with no save required is stuck standing there while you cast the next two AOE spells. Now let your imagination fill with all the stupid AoEs that can be dropped, evards tentacles, grease, mind fog, there are a lot of options. Then you simply cast another timestop, again requiring NO SAVE, then you cast the next 2 AoEs. You managed to use a haste wand in the second of free time allowed to your character, then after the next group of spells while timestopped you manage to close the distance. Oh but they just cast another timestop, then you run away back through all your own AoEs so they have to follow. If 1 minute is too long then how about 30-42 seconds.

Haste is the counter because it halves the time required to cast a spell. Allowing me to cast 2 spells in the time it takes you to cast timestop again. And with two evocation spells maxed and/or greater ruin with 1 max evo spell. The timestop spammer is now dead.

Angelis96 wrote:

Haste is the counter because it halves the time required to cast a spell. Allowing me to cast 2 spells in the time it takes you to cast timestop again. And with two evocation spells maxed and/or greater ruin with 1 max evo spell. The timestop spammer is now dead.

This is assuming the timestop spammer is also hasted, if you get to cast ANY spell before the next timestop is shot off then the spammer isn't timing it right.

Ðraco wrote:

Angelis96 wrote:

Haste is the counter because it halves the time required to cast a spell. Allowing me to cast 2 spells in the time it takes you to cast timestop again. And with two evocation spells maxed and/or greater ruin with 1 max evo spell. The timestop spammer is now dead.

This is assuming the timestop spammer is also hasted, if you get to cast ANY spell before the next timestop is shot off then the spammer isn't timing it right.

They won't be because they are STARTING with timestop spam. Which means if they even do survive 200+ dmg right after the 1st timestop they have to waste the rest of it trying to heal and buff up to not get insta jacked once it's over. It's action versus reaction. If you're trying to make a nerf where timestop is 100% beatable no matter what...good luck.

This is why in teams I kept killing Rosary at the start. Which meant she had to constantly focus on me. Taking her out of the fight.

Angelis96 wrote:

They won't be because they are STARTING with timestop spam. Which means if they even do survive 200+ dmg right after the 1st timestop they have to waste the rest of it trying to heal and buff up to not get insta jacked once it's over. It's action versus reaction. If you're trying to make a nerf where timestop is 100% beatable no matter what...good luck.

You're assuming that's the only trick up there sleeve, you don't have to START with timestop. You can just as easily cast a spell mantle instead of one of the AoEs, there goes your guaranteed 120 magic damage. PVP isn't as simple as saying, I used a haste wand before you timestopped. This isn't like some wizard duel where each starts with equal buffs or similar builds. Generally when someone casts timestop they are already hasted. Or you can START with timestop, drink a haste potion and THEN cast another timestop. That little haste wand counter tactic doesn't help now. There are a lot of ways you can do it, for every counter there's a counter to that counter.

Ðraco wrote:

Angelis96 wrote:

They won't be because they are STARTING with timestop spam. Which means if they even do survive 200+ dmg right after the 1st timestop they have to waste the rest of it trying to heal and buff up to not get insta jacked once it's over. It's action versus reaction. If you're trying to make a nerf where timestop is 100% beatable no matter what...good luck.

You're assuming that's the only trick up there sleeve, you don't have to START with timestop. You can just as easily cast a spell mantle instead of one of the AoEs, there goes your guaranteed 120 magic damage. PVP isn't as simple as saying, I used a haste wand before you timestopped. This isn't like some wizard duel where each starts with equal buffs or similar builds. Generally when someone casts timestop they are already hasted. Or you can START with timestop, drink a haste potion and THEN cast another timestop. That little haste wand counter tactic doesn't help now. There are a lot of ways you can do it, for every counter there's a counter to that counter.

Exactly. There is counters to counters on both sides of the board. That's how PvP is designed. Now you are getting it. Which means there isn't an issue. Well other than ppl running out of ideas for counters or not thinking on their feet.

So remind me again why you are wanting to nerf a strat that there is available counters to?

Angelis96 wrote:

Exactly. There is counters to counters on both sides of the board. That's how PvP is designed. Now you are getting it. Which means there isn't an issue. Well other than ppl running out of ideas for counters or not thinking on their feet.

So remind me again why you are wanting to nerf a strat that there is available counters to?

Because for the hundredth time it's an OP ability, I really don't think you're getting what you can do with timestop. There was a reason for why timestop was nerfed to begin with. Never wonder why everyone becomes immune to everything when timestop is in effect? Because you can have people stuck in an infinite loop until the caster runs out of timestops. This is well known. It lasts for 9 seconds, as you said you can cast 2 spells in a round while hasted. Be they needed buffs, summons, or AoE spam which is the major issue. You cast 2 spells then the third is another timestop, by the time you are finished casting the second timestop the first wears off then you just keep the madness going. THAT's why it needs a timer! That's not a crazy nerf, all it does it prevent players from abusing a known exploit with the spell.

Ðraco wrote:

Angelis96 wrote:

Exactly. There is counters to counters on both sides of the board. That's how PvP is designed. Now you are getting it. Which means there isn't an issue. Well other than ppl running out of ideas for counters or not thinking on their feet.

So remind me again why you are wanting to nerf a strat that there is available counters to?

Because for the hundredth time it's an OP ability, I really don't think you're getting what you can do with timestop. There was a reason for why timestop was nerfed to begin with. Never wonder why everyone becomes immune to everything when timestop is in effect? Because you can have people stuck in an infinite loop until the caster runs out of timestops. This is well known. It lasts for 9 seconds, as you said you can cast 2 spells in a round while hasted. Be they needed buffs, summons, or AoE spam which is the major issue. You cast 2 spells then the third is another timestop, by the time you are finished casting the second timestop the first wears off then you just keep the madness going. THAT's why it needs a timer! That's not a crazy nerf, all it does it prevent players from abusing a known exploit with the spell.

It also removes an actual strategy where there is several counters players can choose from to fight it. Doing this just removes a strategy you are fully capable of beating. On your own.

Ok then just remove the immunities, apparently it doesn't need any kind of nerf in your opinion so let's just go right back to good ol' default timestop. Have fun with your several counters to the situation.

Ðraco wrote:

Ok then just remove the immunities, apparently it doesn't need any kind of nerf in your opinion so let's just go right back to good ol' default timestop. Have fun with your several counters to the situation.

I'm saying It's fine the way it's now. No need for passive agressive comments. That doesn't help.

You're arguments towards this is all based on you working with a team to take out the other caster first. Tactics are certainly important, but the thing that keeps getting overlooked is the reason why timestop gives immunities in the first place. Spamming AoE is just the workaround for not being able to spam maximized isaacs. Plain and simple, so if that isn't an issue then why bother giving immunities during timestop?

Now an idea that doesnt 100% break the strat is rooting a caster while the spell is in place. So they can't move while they are in the effect of TS.

And wrong my point is there is universal counters both in teams and solo. And the immunities were to fix an issue that was fixed. By your logic we should add nerf after nerf after nerf even after this one because one nerf was done.

"We did one nerf so obviously we need another" is not a valid arguement.

Angelis96 wrote:

And the immunities were to fix an issue that was fixed. By your logic we should add nerf after nerf after nerf even after this one because one nerf was done.

"We did one nerf so obviously we need another" is not a valid arguement.

Wrong, what I'm saying is that the issue wasn't fixed, but that people just work around it and exploit the same loop differently, so a better nerf is needed. I'm honestly quite fine with there being no immunities, as long as there is a timer. All this thinking outside of the box when the simplest answer is often the right one.

Angelis96 wrote:

Now an idea that doesnt 100% break the strat is rooting a caster while the spell is in place. So they can't move while they are in the effect of TS.

I'll reiterate this.

Angelis96 wrote:

Now an idea that doesnt 100% break the strat is rooting a caster while the spell is in place. So they can't move while they are in the effect of TS.

I'll reiterate this.

Ðraco wrote:

All this thinking outside of the box when the simplest answer is often the right one.

Right back at ya.

Ðraco wrote:

Angelis96 wrote:

Now an idea that doesnt 100% break the strat is rooting a caster while the spell is in place. So they can't move while they are in the effect of TS.

I'll reiterate this.

Ðraco wrote:

All this thinking outside of the box when the simplest answer is often the right one.

Right back at ya.

I'd agree if there was an actual problem. Vs trying to just 100% remove a strat you dislike.

Basically this comes down to you believe there is a problem.

And I believe there isnt as you can counter it just fine.

We're going to keep agreeing to disagree, though I do find it insulting to say it's because I don't like it rather than I see it as an abusable problem. Now, who's being passive-aggressive.

Ðraco wrote:

We're going to keep agreeing to disagree, though I do find it insulting to say it's because I don't like it rather than I see it as an abusable problem. Now, who's being passive-aggressive.

Not really. Im stating a reasonable conclusion based on evidence potrayed. If there is a counter and no actual problem. It leads me to that consensus.

Not unhelpful sarcasm irrelevant to the point to slight someone.

If you took offense I'm sorry.

But yes agreeing to disagree is the consensus here.

Angelis96 wrote:

I'm saying It's fine the way it's now.

This.

Plenty of ways to beat it both solo and in groups.

Just because these counters are not known to you does not mean they do not exist.

Some feedback from a guy who likes to pvp here

Mrlich and I used to spam arena all the time for hours. He would haste wands and searing light me the second timestop ended and I would counter other timestopper by using a haste wand as they were casting so they couldn't get the next one off becaise the animation coming out is to slow.

If you're melee you just haste wands and rush the caster so they're forced onto their back foot. This isn't that hard you just have to practice. I'm more scared of fighting a wm with 38 on all saves than I am another caster because at any moment they have lots of no and are immune to most cheap CCs.

This is an issue of knowing how to react and, dare I say, gitting gud. I'm agnostic on the idea of a reasonable nerf but really everyone should be using iron horn items against silly casters. It's mandatory.

Caster Nerf - The Timestop Spam

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