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Ðraco
 
PostPosted: Fri, Sep 21 2018, 21:02 PM 

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The way those spells are now, makes them completely useless in PVP when every level 30 has a +5 weapon. These are the only actual defense a mage with no AC has and they don't do squat. Best they have to throw on themselves is Improved Invisibility which anyone can buy those scrolls, not to mention Premonition scrolls and Stoneskin potions. Premonition scrolls go as high as caster level 15, allowing it to soak as much as 150 damage if the opposing player doesn't have a +5 weapon. My suggestion is to make each of those defensive spells (Stoneskin, Greater Stoneskin, Premonition) change from +5 damage reduction to +6 for caster levels above 15. So those scrolls and potions still only allow the flimsy +5 damage reduction but a higher level caster able to make use of them for a change.

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waswar
 
PostPosted: Sun, Sep 23 2018, 1:55 AM 

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I find them superbly useful for PVE content, but it may be prudent to do such a thing, to make Spellcasters more defensible in PVP.

However, we may wish to keep in mind that it is the perception among many that casters are already quite powerful, so whilst I support such a change, others may be in opposition.


 
      
Naivatkal
 
PostPosted: Sun, Sep 23 2018, 2:29 AM 

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Haven't spellcasters been the strongest, or at least near the top of the strongest, for PvE and PvP for years now? Why would that necessitate a buff? Also since when do casters have no AC? High AC caster plus +6 DR is crazy.

Unless something has changed that I have missed in my semi absence.

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Ðraco
 
PostPosted: Sun, Sep 23 2018, 3:04 AM 

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Naivatkal wrote:
Haven't spellcasters been the strongest, or at least near the top of the strongest, for PvE and PvP for years now? Why would that necessitate a buff? Also since when do casters have no AC? High AC caster plus +6 DR is crazy.


Because not all mages wear full plate and carry shields. Armored mages have become the norm on Amia so it's like everyone is expected to follow the same power builds. But actually wanting to play a mage that wears a robe instead of full plate means you get penalized mechanically. I imagine scripting them to check how low AC is, or if they have autostill, would be a lot more of a pain, but I don't know scripting all that well.

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Gravemaskin
 
PostPosted: Sun, Sep 23 2018, 15:05 PM 

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If it was done, stoneskin wouldn't be included on the list because casters are powerful enough without making their dragon/mummy summons even more tanky, not to mention all their PC friends. Also I think it's a bad idea to give a buff like that to greater stoneskin or premonition, because it's not just wizards/sorcs that would be getting buffed from it but druids as well, clerics with the earth domain AND bards (stonesong).

Even if high AC wizard and sorcs weren't a thing and both classes needed the extra survival mechanic, I'm not sure it's a good idea to be giving out a +6/30 damage shield to dragonshape druids or caster druids or even the select few clerics who would get it or bards. Because all of the other classes I mentioned here besides wizard/sorc are already very very solid or strong right now, and to top it off, so are wizards and sorcs. Every class that can get access to these spells can easily get 60+ AC and you don't need to be a full plate wizard/sorc to get high AC, just pick epic mage armor. (10 base AC, X Dexmod, 5 Dodge AC, 1 Dodge ac mage armor, 6 Shield AC for 0ASF large shield, 6 Tumble, 4 Dodge AC haste, +5 Armor AC EMA, +5 Deflection AC EMA, +5 Natural AC EMA, +5 Dodge AC EMA = lands you square at 52+X AC without even trying(49+XAC with crossclass tumble), and assuming you have the armor feats you have access to 4 base AC or 7 base AC 0ASF armor from shops and 0ASF large shields and bucklers)

Giving a +6/20 or +6/30 damage shield to classes who already outclass the majority of other classes/builds in terms of AC but generally have a lower HP pool, removing that lower HP pool drawback seems like it would give an edge that wizards, sorcerers, bards, druids or clerics don't need and would be a huge upset to server balance that'd probably end in either nerfing it or giving +6 AB access to more classes than just monks.

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Richard_Edmund
 
PostPosted: Sun, Sep 23 2018, 15:20 PM 

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What about tying in the premonition with a divination focus requirement? ESP: Divination could raise it from +5 to +6. Abjuration has become powerful enough already with the new updates and I don't think it needs any more love just yet.

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Guardian
 
PostPosted: Sun, Sep 23 2018, 15:21 PM 

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Richard_Edmund wrote:
What about tying in the premonition with a divination focus requirement? ESP: Divination could raise it from +5 to +6. Abjuration has become powerful enough already with the new updates and I don't think it needs any more love just yet.


Love that idea.

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MightNMagic
 
PostPosted: Sun, Sep 23 2018, 15:43 PM 

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Things are fine as they are, though druids still suck.

The idea of an AC monster like Rashad with +6 immunity is goofy. You're basically just asking for Epic Warding to be available because you chose to build a certain way.

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Ðraco
 
PostPosted: Sun, Sep 23 2018, 17:47 PM 

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Gravemaskin wrote:
Every class that can get access to these spells can easily get 60+ AC and you don't need to be a full plate wizard/sorc to get high AC, just pick epic mage armor. (10 base AC, X Dexmod, 5 Dodge AC, 1 Dodge ac mage armor, 6 Shield AC for 0ASF large shield, 6 Tumble, 4 Dodge AC haste, +5 Armor AC EMA, +5 Deflection AC EMA, +5 Natural AC EMA, +5 Dodge AC EMA = lands you square at 52+X AC without even trying(49+XAC with crossclass tumble), and assuming you have the armor feats you have access to 4 base AC or 7 base AC 0ASF armor from shops and 0ASF large shields and bucklers)


Ok then what if you're actually a PURE caster, as none of that applies to me personally. A pure wizard/sorcerer does not get to use a shield as they don't get the feat, and they don't get +6 AC from tumble as it's crossclass skill. So that would be 10 Base +20 from EMA +5 Dodge from boots +3 from tumble, +4 from haste and however much Dex you could fit on the character. So that's 42-45 AC if you were generous on the Dex and assuming you can stay hasted the whole time, which is pitiful and not really that different from having 10 AC when facing off against a level 30 PC. You want your AC to be higher than the lowest AB for it to be of any use. Let's not forget, fighting a fully buffed mage is supposed to be difficult, which is why you dispell them, even tanks with UMD (which they all seem to have) have mords scrolls on them. A fully buffed battle cleric is just as dangerous if not more, but that's why you dispell them.

The best defense a mage has is the simple Improved Invisibility for the 50% concealment, even having access to spells 5 levels higher and they still can't top that, that's just ridiculous. I don't get why it's such a problem, the spell exists already but it's just a matter of making it work against players too. You can say "well they have damage shields" well a simple Lesser Spellbreach scroll strips that away in a snap. You have all these powerful scrolls available in stores, I'm pretty confident my tank can take out any mage just because of the scrolls he can fire off. Mords, Greater and Lesser Spellbreach, and good ole Greater Spellmantle.

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Gravemaskin
 
PostPosted: Sun, Sep 23 2018, 18:51 PM 

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If 100% pure mages were getting buffs, it'd be something specific and tied to their level directly as a class bonus ability or something, not a spell buff because we have to balance the spells in accordance with who can use them, and how much stronger would it make the more popular builds, which in the case of high level mages aren't 30 wizard or sorc, but 29 wiz/sorc and 1 ranger for the free epic spellfocus, light/medium armor and shield prof. If you're going 30 wizard instead, then that's a choice you made and it's not going to be rewarded mechanically outside of the whole class as getting another look at, like bards got and that rogues and warriors are currently considered for, to reward higher level investments.

All that said, I still don't think going +6 for any of the defensive spells is a good call for balance reasons, however I wouldn't mind seeing premonition get a higher damage absorption with something like +5/5 extra damage soak cap and 25 damage cap increase per divination spell focus, up to a total of +5/45 and 75+10 dmg absorb cap per CL, up form +5/30 and 10 dmg absorb per CL. If only to make epic divination focus a tad more rewarding than what it currently is.

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Angelis96
 
PostPosted: Sun, Sep 23 2018, 19:53 PM 

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Ðraco wrote:
Gravemaskin wrote:
Every class that can get access to these spells can easily get 60+ AC and you don't need to be a full plate wizard/sorc to get high AC, just pick epic mage armor. (10 base AC, X Dexmod, 5 Dodge AC, 1 Dodge ac mage armor, 6 Shield AC for 0ASF large shield, 6 Tumble, 4 Dodge AC haste, +5 Armor AC EMA, +5 Deflection AC EMA, +5 Natural AC EMA, +5 Dodge AC EMA = lands you square at 52+X AC without even trying(49+XAC with crossclass tumble), and assuming you have the armor feats you have access to 4 base AC or 7 base AC 0ASF armor from shops and 0ASF large shields and bucklers)


Ok then what if you're actually a PURE caster, as none of that applies to me personally. A pure wizard/sorcerer does not get to use a shield as they don't get the feat, and they don't get +6 AC from tumble as it's crossclass skill. So that would be 10 Base +20 from EMA +5 Dodge from boots +3 from tumble, +4 from haste and however much Dex you could fit on the character. So that's 42-45 AC if you were generous on the Dex and assuming you can stay hasted the whole time, which is pitiful and not really that different from having 10 AC when facing off against a level 30 PC. You want your AC to be higher than the lowest AB for it to be of any use. Let's not forget, fighting a fully buffed mage is supposed to be difficult, which is why you dispell them, even tanks with UMD (which they all seem to have) have mords scrolls on them. A fully buffed battle cleric is just as dangerous if not more, but that's why you dispell them.

The best defense a mage has is the simple Improved Invisibility for the 50% concealment, even having access to spells 5 levels higher and they still can't top that, that's just ridiculous. I don't get why it's such a problem, the spell exists already but it's just a matter of making it work against players too. You can say "well they have damage shields" well a simple Lesser Spellbreach scroll strips that away in a snap. You have all these powerful scrolls available in stores, I'm pretty confident my tank can take out any mage just because of the scrolls he can fire off. Mords, Greater and Lesser Spellbreach, and good ole Greater Spellmantle.


you're also forgetting the +12 dex you can get from cats grace or +12 dex on gear and the 14 dex or so you can start with on a caster if you so choose. then with EMA on top of that and mage armor. and +10 base and +5 from boots (as dodge stacks twice) so that's +8+20+10+5+1 from mage armor then with improved expertise you can get another +10 that's 54 AC. and if you get Armor skin that's another +2 making it 56 not to mention if you are playing a AC heavy pure wizard or sorc something is wrong. as they are two of the most OP classes in the game without ever having to get hit.

and 56 AC (not counting cross class tumble) for a pure caster is pretty good.

then with haste as well that's 60 AC

so not quite sure as to how you think pure casters can't have good AC

any buff like this would literally make Arcanists the most overpowered classes in the game.

Not to mention with a perfect mythal and the free enchant slots with no armor bonuses you can achieve constant +5/5 DR just fine.

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Last edited by Angelis96 on Sun, Sep 23 2018, 20:19 PM, edited 2 times in total.

 
      
robbi320
 
PostPosted: Sun, Sep 23 2018, 20:10 PM 



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Hey, Grave:
viewtopic.php?f=20&t=56068
Stoneskin
Each Spell Focus in Abjuration adds an additional 2 hit points per caster level of damage absorbed by this spell (it still caps at caster level 10).
-> max of 160 damage absorbed

Premonition
Each Spell Focus in Divination adds an additional 2 hit points per caster level of damage absorbed by this spell
-> max of 384 on a 24, 480 on a pure 30.

If the opponent has a +4 or lower weapon, they're not getting through a normal premonition, let a lone a div focused casters (as rare as they may be) premonition.

Admittedly, greater stoneskin could use a buff,just to make it along the lines of the other two DR spells, since an Abj caster has a stronger Stoneskin than Greater Stoneskin can ever achieve...


 
      
Ðraco
 
PostPosted: Sun, Sep 23 2018, 21:51 PM 

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Angelis96 wrote:
you're also forgetting the +12 dex you can get from cats grace or +12 dex on gear and the 14 dex or so you can start with on a caster if you so choose. then with EMA on top of that and mage armor. and +10 base and +5 from boots (as dodge stacks twice) so that's +8+20+10+5+1 from mage armor then with improved expertise you can get another +10 that's 54 AC. and if you get Armor skin that's another +2 making it 56 not to mention if you are playing a AC heavy pure wizard or sorc something is wrong. as they are two of the most OP classes in the game without ever having to get hit.


I don't count +12 Dex, or cats grace as that's a little harder to achieve when you also have to try to get +12 Int and +12 Con since wizards aren't known for having a lot of HP or Fortitude. When you focus so much in one field you are left completely defenseless in another, this is all assuming you are fully buffed and can somehow manage to keep that going before you easily get dispelled. Everyone is forgetting all the spells easily available to everyone in stores as long as they have UMD. As for Improved Expertise, you can't have it active while casting a spell, so unless as a dedicated spell thrower you plan on smacking people with your staff, it's hardly of any use.

People are talking like wizards and sorcerers are so OP, but with all the buffs you leave available in stores any Weapon Master worth their salt will drop any mage, no question. You don't even need to be a ranger or druid to have access to things like Camouflage and One with the Land. Even as a mage I rely on a lot of those scrolls, I'll always use a Premonition scroll over wasting a level 8 spell slot, or a Greater Spell Mantle scroll over wasting a level 9 spell slot. Most fights I've ever been in on my mage I'm usually running on little to no buffs, again because you get dispelled so quickly. As you should because only an idiot would try to fight a mage covered in magical wards. At least if Premonition wasn't useless they might bother slotting it. But as I said, a mage's best friend is Improved Invisibility.

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StifterEL
 
PostPosted: Mon, Sep 24 2018, 0:07 AM 

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Just look at Rosary, she's a pure sorc build with low AC, but she still pretty much takes down almost everyone in 1 on 1 duels. As for disjuctuon scrolls in my experience you rarely dispel stuff not on the breach list.
Another to keep in mind is where you fight. Somewhere like the arena is close quarters, which gives melee chars a chance to get close. In an open area however the melee will have hardy any chance to even get close before he/she is dead.

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Gravemaskin
 
PostPosted: Mon, Sep 24 2018, 3:34 AM 

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robbi320 wrote:
Hey, Grave:
http://www.amiaworld.net/phpbb3/viewtop ... 20&t=56068
Stoneskin
Each Spell Focus in Abjuration adds an additional 2 hit points per caster level of damage absorbed by this spell (it still caps at caster level 10).
-> max of 160 damage absorbed

Premonition
Each Spell Focus in Divination adds an additional 2 hit points per caster level of damage absorbed by this spell
-> max of 384 on a 24, 480 on a pure 30.

If the opponent has a +4 or lower weapon, they're not getting through a normal premonition, let a lone a div focused casters (as rare as they may be) premonition.

Admittedly, greater stoneskin could use a buff,just to make it along the lines of the other two DR spells, since an Abj caster has a stronger Stoneskin than Greater Stoneskin can ever achieve...

Ha! Well there you go, they basically have what I already suggested but a bigger damage absorption pool but no increase in the damage absorbed per hit cap. Greater stoneskin could probably use a buff to be brought in line with the normal stoneskin too, but given the bonuses already on the 2 others, I especially don't think giving them +6 is the best option for mages.

And since all 3 are on the breach list and premonition is the second one, in a mage duel all 3 are useless and in a fight against whatever else, it's gonna get dispelled by even lesser breach scrolls. Which means that in a mage vs martial based character, where the mage is already favored, the martial character NEEDS lesser, normal or greater spellbreach or mord scrolls in high amounts to get past the damage spells as well as everything else they are normally reserved for, and even then the mage can simply recast it to get that extra buffer. However the main use of these spells now is PvE and it would mainly make it even easier for mages to do the pve content, especially epic bosses, and changing any of the absorption spells would require also editing each and every epic boss and taking another look at the other high end mobs in the game.

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MightNMagic
 
PostPosted: Mon, Sep 24 2018, 7:05 AM 

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I'm sorry, but just, no. This is silly. Mages/sorcs, bar none are the best single class in the game. You've so many tactics, perma-haste and so on and so forth that you're asking for also-invulnerability purely because you knowingly chose to build a certain way (which comes with its own advantages).

Game design doesn't work like that. Game designers shouldn't be working to improve people who choose to build poorly just because they want it all. That's silly.

Oh, and druids still suck. :lol:

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(No tells for Rashad while I'm playing other characters please.)


 
      
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